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This class, dunno, feels like went through a lot of changes and doesn't resemble what it used to be very much. Migrating PF1 Clerics to PF2 is gonna present some challenges.
There's now a no-armor white-mage cleric that seems new to the d20 tradition of games. It gets legendary spellcasting so it seems ok, I suppose. Their supporting ability doesn't seem specially notable since all the casting proficiency is important only for offense.
The actual Cloistered Cleric archetype in PF1 was really bad and nobody picked it, and the other no-armor cleric options were also quite rare. This is essentially a new class that didn't exist (though it was requested) that I suppose fits all those NPC Clerics that don't adventure who got a lot of baggage before.
Then the Warpriest is... The weird one. First, it doesn't really represent the PF1 Base Class of Warpriest, it's instead supposed to be the replacement for all the regular Clerics from before, right? Except it gets all Martial Weapons when it didn't before. This may do a number how they prioritize their primary weapon, though there's still good support for sticking to the Deity favored one.
The Warpriest gets Expert proficiency in weapons and armor at a very competitive timing, but then it never gets to master in either, while it's spellcasting starts really slow then it gets to Master by the end. This is really weird! This is a great melee combat class until like level 13+ when you'd expected a proficiency boost somewhere but it just never comes... But guess we won't find out how it plays until it's playtested at those high levels.
It does kinda suck this means we're not getting the old Warpriest Class, full of gimmicks as it was. You would need a way to get a bit more Fighter stuff, but Multiclassing fighter would also be VERY redundant.
What do you think?
Doesn't warpriest get master with their deity's favored weapon?
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If WarPriest had master weapon proficiency while it have lvl 10 spell slots I would be really disapointed with Paizo idea of balance.
It's basically a gish class, decent in martial and spellcasting but not great, being one proficiency lower than pure casters and martials.
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If WarPriest had master weapon proficiency while it have lvl 10 spell slots I would be really disapointed with Paizo idea of balance.
It's basically a gish class, decent in martial and spellcasting but not great, being one proficiency lower than pure casters and martials(like it should be).
They get Expert really early. I wouldn't mind if it was Master at lv15 or 17 and exclusively with Deity Favored Weapon. Wouldn't mind if it was nerfed in other way since spells are really good, but isn't the whole point to make a Cleric that relies on their Strikes? Not sure if there's some self-buff so they can keep up at those levels.
As said, they don't fall behind until the super late game, then their style changes| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the warpriest main thing in PF1 was:
1) Action economy manipulation, casting self buff spells as a swift action
2) Full access to the cleric list (up to level 6 spells)
Due to how action economy now works...it simply can't work the same anymore. There is no swift action. The best they can do is cast a 1 action buff spell on themselves. In exchange, the warpriest got full spell casting.
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I think point is Cleric was already over-strong class in the whole (in breadth), so it didn't need significant push towards martial to fulfill 'more martial divine caster'. While the 'less martial more caster' niche did dial back on martial stuff while better toeing balance. I don't know why anybody finds Caster Cleric concept strange, just because it wasn't well represented in D&D/PF1, that feels like mechanics leading theme IMHO. I'm saying this as somebody who liked that niche and managed it without best mechanical support. I also liked a different spin on 'nature-y caster' than Druid really was ever able to provide, but Shaman eventually did.
I think the warpriest main thing in PF1 was:
1) Action economy manipulation, casting self buff spells as a swift action
2) Full access to the cleric list (up to level 6 spells)Due to how action economy now works...it simply can't work the same anymore. There is no swift action. The best they can do is cast a 1 action buff spell on themselves. In exchange, the warpriest got full spell casting.
Even without that, they had access to Fighter Feats and to enchant their weapon/armor with stuff. You can sorta do the second part with Emblazon, but not really.
If anything, it's the master proficiency in divine spells that's kinda useless for the melee builds.
Even going back to the quickening of self-buffs, you could easily do that with a focus spell that works like Quicken metamagic but only for self-cast. This would be a huge buff, though, and certainly too much together with Master proficiency.
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There's now a no-armor white-mage cleric that seems new to the d20 tradition of games.
I adored the D&D 2e priest's handbook, which had a version of this. There have also been 3e variants, so it's been around. It may not have caught on much, but it was certainly viable. It's just the cleric was so good at acting like a fighter as a backup that the cloistered cleric didn't seem that good. However, compared to other classes, it was just fine.
Kobold Press did Pathfinder 1E Priest Class that was "cloth caster Cleric".
I'm not personally familiar with 2ndEd Priest mentioned above, but concept obviously is not new or weird.
It's more a matter of Cleric "package" being accepted as good value and no reason to give it away.
What with ASF% being arcane thing, armor was seen as part of package with Divine, "traditionally". (that is, D&Disms defined my mechanics)
(likewise Shaman which I mentioned also automatically got armor, and never really went 'cloth caster' direction either)
Which was really a design blinder given that ASF% was not only way to bar armor, Monk did as well with no ASF%.
I haven't checked out the final spells yet comprehensively, is there spells which aren't "offensive" but use Class DC still? I'm not sure if Sancctuary still forces Save for example, but Class DC can be used without forcing Save but just interacting as target number for enemy actions (attacks, or even their own spells/abilities that force Saves... using Class DC instead of normal Save?).
I personally like Warpriest better, one with Champion dedication to get stuff like Retribuitive Strike and Divine Ally then get Warpriest Channel Smite just because I want to smite something.
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There's now a no-armor white-mage cleric that seems new to the d20 tradition of games
It isn't. It was in 2nd, 3.0, 3.5 and 4th, and PF1.
Though it really isn't limited to 'white mage'Personally, I like the split. There are some oddities (like deadly simplicity, which isn't relevant to the vast majority of the core deities, and picking war priest over cloistered seems like an automatic violation of Nethys' anathema anyway), but it brings it more in line with other casters, and the warpriest isn't just a free gish for just existing- they actually have to give something up for their weapon skills, which aren't really the equal of martial classes (which is also good). An end to the uber-cleric, master of everything, is nice.
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So any thoughts which doctrine seems more powerful. Not sure how much +2 from Lengendary Spellcasting will effect.
Cloistered Cleric is tricky to evaluate without factoring in bonus spells from deities - many of them steal highly valuable, DC-based spells from other lists. Clearly a Cleric of Calistria will want to have their DC's as high as possible so they can charm people.
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It is worth pointing out the 1E "Cloistered Cleric" is horrible example of "caster cleric" even only within what 1E did with that concept, the 1E CC is actually flatly worse at casting and really is about skills similarly to Cardinal. Ecclesitheurge and Theologian did actually boost casting (albeit latter was mixed bag, losing 1 Domain in order to SpontSubstitute the other's Domain Spells). So there really is no thematic continuity between the 1E and 2E Cloistered Cleric, the latter not doing anything special with skills... I think it was simply a matter of "Cloistered Cleric" having more name recognition as "cloth-y Cleric", and that being obvious counterpart to "Warpriest" Doctrine. I think there is obviously room for more Doctrines, to include skill-sy style like Cardinal, maybe even with some Mental spell goodness? :-o ?
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I still find the Divine Font to be the strangest part of the 2E cleric. Wisdom caster has one of their biggest abilities based on their charisma modifier? No other class does this, and it grates.
Rant aside, regarding the two doctrines I prefer cloistered cleric. Warpriest feels like a watered down wannabe Champion. Frankly with general feats to get armor the cloistered cleric, especially for gods who have two handed favored weapons so shields won't mean s!%#, loses almost no ground to the warpriest in the martial combat department while getting some nice magic bonuses. Not to mention if you play a human you can get two domains at first level, so two focus spells and two focus points.
I'm actually playing a human cloistered cleric right now, my group used the playtest rules for a homebrewed Egyptian campaign so we just remade our characters with the full rules between sessions. At level 4 I have the sun and healing domains and I'm doing quite well in combat. I can flashbang people, heal like nobody's business, and hold my own just fine in melee with a two handed longsword as my deities favored weapon (Technically reskinned as Khopesh). It's still a good all around class, but I think they were entirely justified in scaling back the cleric from the one man army it ended up as in 1E.
I still find the Divine Font to be the strangest part of the 2E cleric. Wisdom caster has one of their biggest abilities based on their charisma modifier? No other class does this, and it grates.
Rant aside, regarding the two doctrines I prefer cloistered cleric. Warpriest feels like a watered down wannabe Champion. Frankly with general feats to get armor the cloistered cleric, especially for gods who have two handed favored weapons so shields won't mean s$$@, loses almost no ground to the warpriest in the martial combat department while getting some nice magic bonuses. Not to mention if you play a human you can get two domains at first level, so two focus spells and two focus points.
I'm actually playing a human cloistered cleric right now, my group used the playtest rules for a homebrewed Egyptian campaign so we just remade our characters with the full rules between sessions. At level 4 I have the sun and healing domains and I'm doing quite well in combat. I can flashbang people, heal like nobody's business, and hold my own just fine in melee with a two handed longsword as my deities favored weapon (Technically reskinned as Khopesh). It's still a good all around class, but I think they were entirely justified in scaling back the cleric from the one man army it ended up as in 1E.
You do realize Warpriest gets Expert weapons and armor before lv10? Has a +2 to attack and AC that the Cloistered Cleric is gonna be very hard-pressed to overcome if he's using the general feats.
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Not really sure I agree with the premise of this thread. Barring missing options I think Cleric is one of the classes that translates more easily from PF1 to PF2. Mostly because the PF1 Cleric had a pretty barren chassis to begin with.
Calling the CC "essentially a new class that didn't exist" seems a bit of a stretch too. It's a cleric that doesn't use weapons, which wasn't exactly a rare character idea in PF1, even if most of the archetypes built around it kinda sucked.
There's nothing really weird or brand new here.
I still find the Divine Font to be the strangest part of the 2E cleric. Wisdom caster has one of their biggest abilities based on their charisma modifier? No other class does this, and it grates.
It's partially a legacy thing. Cha based channeling goes back a while.
It also, mechanically, means a Cleric can't just be an amazing healer for free, they have to invest in something to advance it. I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily.
It also indirectly helps incentivize CCs a bit more (which apparently a lot of people don't like) since they're less MAD and therefore possibly able to invest more heavily in Charisma.
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I like both of the cleric concepts. This is exactly what I wanted from a new game - the ability to tailor the class like I would like to play it. I see a lot of threads complaining about armor proficiency, weapon proficiency, skill proficiency - but to me this is what I hope to expect with the release of future archetypes - A choice that is made to help define who and what your character is throughout their career. If it's armor / weapon proficiency - given up for a better spell casting proficiency then so be it. But still keeping with the cleric vibe - positive or negative energy.
I personally like Warpriest better, one with Champion dedication to get stuff like Retribuitive Strike and Divine Ally then get Warpriest Channel Smite just because I want to smite something.
Smiter no smiting, smiter no smiting!
Two spells yes, two points no. Domain Initiate does not grant extra focus points.Not to mention if you play a human you can get two domains at first level, so two focus spells and two focus points.
Sure it does:
Domain Initiate says "you start with a focus pool of 1 Focus Point."Focus spells sidebar says
"If you have multiple abilities that give you a focus pool, each one adds 1 Focus Point to your pool."
That's a single focus pool of 2 for taking Domain Initiate twice.
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Do people really think the 1e Cleric was a one-man-wrecking-machine? Really?
I mean, didn't the Warpriest come along because the Cleric couldn't keep up? Sure they had all the tools to be OP, but they didn't have the action economy to get there fast enough.
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Do people really think the 1e Cleric was a one-man-wrecking-machine? Really?
I mean, didn't the Warpriest come along because the Cleric couldn't keep up? Sure they had all the tools to be OP, but they didn't have the action economy to get there fast enough.
...what?
I'm currently playing a low charisma 3.5e straight cleric (ie: the worst possible 3.5e cleric build)
The 3.5 cleric (at least with low charisma) is in way worse a position than a PF1 cleric.
I am the most dominant player in that party, including a dread necromancer (to be fair, no tomb tainted soul), and a druid.
1e cleric was only second best to the wizard, and only at higher levels.
My first character will be a cleric. My thinking is Cloistered Cleric is the best Cleric.
Cloistered Cleric with Champ dedication to be exact. You need to be a human and tank your stats, but you can start at 18 Wis, 16 Str and 14 Cha (10 con, 10 dex and 8 int, btw). Thats enough to let you nab Champ dedication at 2.
For bonus points, take adaptive cantrip and grab Electric Arc. At higher levels your can get true strike with that level 5 human feat.
Start with heavy armor even if not proficient and you get 15 ac at level 1. Stay in the back and spam electric arc until level 2. Now you are proficient and your ac increases by 4. Then its clobbering time. Cast Magic Weapon and go to town.
You get expert weapons a little later but you get to wear plate and leave dex at 10. Not bad.
Be a cleric of Shelyn and use a two handed weapon with reach (glaive) that you can combo with Champion's Reaction at 6. You get to tag an enemy every now and again and give an ally DR.
Champ's Reaction probably works pretty well with Replenishment of War and Shared Replinishment too.
The other way to go is to worship Sarenrae and spam Fire Ray. Still go human for adapted cantrip, imo. And true strike too. White Mage indeed.
Under no cirvumstance would I go War Priest. No legendary casting. No heavy armor. No thanks.
... I totally missed that. That means that Champions taking Domain Initiate is really strong. Thanks!Two spells yes, two points no. Domain Initiate does not grant extra focus points.Not to mention if you play a human you can get two domains at first level, so two focus spells and two focus points.
Sure it does:
Domain Initiate says "you start with a focus pool of 1 Focus Point."Focus spells sidebar says
"If you have multiple abilities that give you a focus pool, each one adds 1 Focus Point to your pool."That's a single focus pool of 2 for taking Domain Initiate twice.
Not that strong really. You only regain 1 focus point per Refocus (until you get a feat that changes that, which Champions can only take at 10th and a Cleric at 12th) and you can only Refocus if you have spent at least 1 focus point since the last time you regained focus points.
This means that if you begin the day with 2 focus points and you spend them both without Refocusing, you're now stuck with 1 point maximum until your next daily preparation.
The other oddity is that if you don't worship a good god, there's little in the way of attack cantrips because you can't use divine lance. I'd made a cleric of Pharasma, so if you went cloistered, I'm not sure what you'd do in the way of attacks? I guess you're stuck with a sling or throwing daggers at people?
If you're a human then you could take something like Ray of Frost via Adapted Cantrip. I have no idea what else a non-human could do.
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That's another matter though, not purely a cleric thing.
I'll say, I have more issues with Divine Magic itself than I do with Cleric.
Warpriest may be more front loaded than Cloistered but I still like Cloistered well enough, so I'm fine there.
Divine Magic as a whole otoh has a few specificities that weird me out.
Mostly the fact as far as I know it's the only list to give you spells you just can't use.
Serving a TNeutral God cuts you straight out of ever casting all the "Divine X" spells, among others.
Not serving a god at all cuts you from all those and more, which is an issue for sorcerers and will be one for Oracles down the line, since they're supposed to be cemented in their non-deific or pantheistic niche (if they're still divine casters).
All that with nothing to compensate for the loss, which is my real issue.
It annoys me that a Cloistered Cleric of Nethys, even with the god of magic's vastly overloaded spell grants, is one of the least impressive divine casters, losing more than even he gives. And the other TN only have it rougher.
Admittedly, maybe the future will give us TN only and/or godless spells, or just simply enough spells without those alignment/deity requirements to make this a non-issue. Maybe.
I don't see either happening anytime soon, which is fair, and I'm not convinced it's that great a solution either.
But there's already been a fair amount of talk around here on how people would handle it in their games, for there are relatively easy fixes to some issues, but that amount of reliance on houserules is hardly a positive.
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There's now a no-armor white-mage cleric that seems new to the d20 tradition of games.
The true "white-mage" in PF2 is the Angelic bloodline sorcerer.
There's now a no-armor white-mage cleric that seems new to the d20 tradition of games.The true "white-mage" in PF2 is the Angelic bloodline sorcerer.
Off white mage then?
It annoys me that a Cloistered Cleric of Nethys, even with the god of magic's vastly overloaded spell grants, is one of the least impressive divine casters, losing more than even he gives. And the other TN only have it rougher.
I have to agree. It's VERY strange that Nethys can't grant "a beam of divine energy" as a cantrip... I kind of wish they'd allow it to deal force damage for neutrals as I'd think neutral gods might want their clerics to have an effective 'weapon' to use, especially Nethys [Edicts seek out magical power and use it, Anathema pursue mundane paths over magical ones].