So..Vigilante. Can someone explain to me how it's strong?

[Naoki00]

One of my players keeps swearing that the Vigilante is one of the strongest non-casters in Pathfinder, and I've seen one or two forums with a similar mentality...but neither he nor they really have ever just broke it down as to why. When I look at them I see interesting social talents that I really want just to be a thing half the other classes got anyway, a couple decent vigilante talents that are better than Rogue ones, but not as generally good as some Ninja Tricks in my opinion, and the option to have either Full BaB or a pretty meh version of sneak attack. Have I failed my perception check here and missed something?

I don't know if my hatred of "I full Attack" and thus almost strict us of the Spheres of Might stuff has influenced this or anything, I'm just hoping that someone can explain where this supposed power is that I'm really missing.

[doomman47]

Its not.

[Dragonchess Player]

Basically, the vigilante (avenger) is a fighter (or slayer), but with:

1) combat class features that are better than and/or give multiple feats for each selection
2) 6+ Int skill ranks
3) social skills and class features
4) good Will saves

As an added benefit, the player gets both combat and social abilities, instead of having to choose between the two.

[deuxhero]

Strongest non-caster is a bit like being the fastest antique utility van in an F1 race. It can be fast in its category, but it's not close to the completion. If you're playing with Spheres of Might and casters its abilities are even less relevant.

[InvisiblePink]

Vigilante is strong compared to other first-party martials because it actually has narrative abilities without giving up any of its combat prowess. It can participate in the out-of-combat game in ways usually reserved for casters, though still lacking their versatility. Just look at the Mockingbird talent, realize that it's not an illusion spell so there is no save to disbelieve, and think about the havoc that can wreak in creative hands.

Spheres gives martials more meaningful ways to interact with the world while weakening casters' stranglehold on the narrative, which dilutes the Vigilante's advantage. Really, anything that balances the game better tends to normalize Vigilante, because Vigilante is what more first-party martials should've been in the first place.

[Temperans]

As other have said Vigilantes excellent because it has social abilities without losing combat power.

But, it's more than that. The Fighter class gives 27 feats (counting Advance Armor & Weapon Training). A Vigilante gains 10 general feats, 10 Vigilante Talents (worth at least 1, but average 2 feats), and 10 Social talents (worth 1-2 feat). That's at least an equivalent 30 feats, but on average its worth 40.

In the case of Ninja, Vigilante has an Archetype that in exchange for 1 talent (for a ki pool), you can gain both Unchained Monk powers and/or Ninja talents.

A few things Vigilantes are better at:

So they make better Rogues and Fighters.

The Avenging Beast and Agathiel archetypes arguably make much better Shifters, do to actually getting Wild Shape: Agathiel's version is indefinite, counters all other polymorphis, and you can continue using armor and stuff.

The Zealot is equivalent to an Inquisitor. Trading Solo Tactics and a meh smite, for Social talents and actual Smite (of any alignment).

Dragonscale Loyalist, has a "free" pseudo pounce, with no weapon limit. Plus one of the few ways to get a full round on a Surprise rounds.

*******************
Regarding Sphere of Might, I have never used it, but quickly skimmed the rules. It appears to me that Vigilantes continue to out perform even here. The reason again being all the feats equivalent things you get. So a Vigilante has much less problems losing all his general feats, simply using Talents to make up for the loss.

[Syries]

Vigilantes can conceivably get more combat feats than a fighter, based on how they build themselves. All neatly packed in a chassis that provides out of combat stuff as well.

[Derklord]

Naoki00 wrote:

One of my players keeps swearing that the Vigilante is one of the strongest non-casters in Pathfinder

To put it bluntly, he doesn't really understand the game much, than.

It can be better than a Rogue/ at about the same job (especially with the Teisatsu archetype), but that's like saying I'm better at math than a elementary school child - it's not really saying much. Even than, it's just barely so, when compared to unRogue. It's also better than a Fighter at the same job, but only if the Fighter isn't using Advanced Weapon Training, and/or one of the better archetypes (e.g. Mutation Warrior) - again, same thing.

Stalker Vigilante is basically much better at traditional Rogue stuff (sneaking around, making stealth kills that no one notices; Splinter Cell style gameplay if you will), but those things rarely actually happen in a regular campaign, not the least because you usually can't do them as a group (unless you're using spells like Invisibility and Silence/Silent Table, at which point you don't need the Stalker anymore), so the GM needs to pause the game and focus on one single player. In a traditional combat, most of the cool stuff doesn't work (because someone thought it was a good idea to only allow the marked talents once per combat, unless you're using Norgorber’s Silent Shiv), and it's basically just the way better will save that will save (pun intended) the Vigilante from being worse than an unRogue.

Avenger is better, because with the release of Companion to the Lonely, Well-Known Expert, and Ancestral Enlightenment, i.e. social talents that have combat use, plus the useful non-combat talents Social Grace*, Many Guises, and Mockingbird, Avenger is a well-rounded character with minimal investment and can focus on combat. The class lacks an accuracy booster (unless you can reliably use Take ’Em Alive), though, and it doesn't really have high impact combat abilities apart from Mad Rush. It also has no limited use class features that allow you to step up your game when the fight is an especially tough one.

*) Although I have build an intimidation based Vigilante that stays in Social Identity 24/7 and uses Social Grace in combat as well.

Depending on what you're doing with it, and the campaign, it may be better than cMonk, Ninja, Cavalier, Samurai, Gunslinger, Swashbuckler, and Brawler. But there are the weakest classes in the game.

Temperans wrote:

The Avenging Beast and Agathiel archetypes arguably make much better Shifters, do to actually getting Wild Shape: Agathiel's version is indefinite, counters all other polymorphis, and you can continue using armor and stuff.

Well, Avenging Beast is better because it has spellcasting, but that's like saying Druid is better than Shifter (plus, it's strictly worse at physical combat, as it can't get pounce before 19th level). Agathiel is not better than Shifter though - Weretouched Shifter can wear armor as well (and can even use weapons or have five primary natural attacks at 4th level), regular Shifter gets a flying form at 5th level, and Adaptive Shifter gets a Druid's wild shape plus some added goodies (including flight).

deuxhero wrote:

Strongest non-caster is a bit like being the fastest antique utility van in an F1 race. It can be fast in its category, but it's not close to the completion.

If only it was, though - strongest non-caster means it has to be better than Barbarian, unMonk, and Kineticist.

[Temperans]

* First I want to say I'm sorry I made a mistake in the order, so it reads like Agathion gets Wild Shape. They however don't.

Now to start, I wont deny that shifter has it's good part, and the class it self gives many bonuses and shapeshift abilities.

But, I did say they were "arguably" better. The question being, do you want more effects or duration?

Going for effects/combat, yes Shifter is the best choice as it was built around the theme of shifting. This has it's obvious advantages.
Going for duration/social, the Vigilante is the better choice. It has no duration limit, and can't be forcefully changed (besides anti-magic).

*******************
I either didnt realize Avenging Beast had magic or had it placed as a 4th lv caster. Similar to a Paladin/Ranger. I was clearly wrong. In that case it really doesn't count for comparison, as Spellcasting is always the better choice given the chance.

*******************
Fly speed is a thing that's gained from Beast Shape I, so all of them get a fly speed at lv 4 or 5. Similarly, multiple attacks is gained from the form so just having Beast Shape I with the right form is enough.

Pounce however is Beast Shape III which is kind of sad.

*******************
Hmm, Weretouch and Adaptive Shifter are so much better than the base class. Yeah Vigilante, doesn't really have much above them: Besides, again, duration and social abilities.

*******************

I would say that Vigilante is about equivalent to uMonk. Going for Avenger gives less attacks (no Flurry) still access to TWF. It also has a large static damage +5; +15 with Dex to hit, so agile isn't needed. The gain acces to pounce, and full motion in heavy armor. Also some talents are a lot like Monk powers (Ex: Perfect Fall).

Barbarians have Rage & Rage powers, which is practically exclusive, and swingy. Out of Rage there isn't much for the Barbarian to do.

Kineticist are pseudo casters, the simple reason that all of their abilities are spell-like or treated as spells/magic.

[Derklord]

Temperans wrote:

Fly speed is a thing that's gained from Beast Shape I, so all of them get a fly speed at lv 4 or 5.

Except an Agathiel doesn't necessarily want to select a flying form (dito for Weretouched Shifter).

Temperans wrote:

Pounce however is Beast Shape III which is kind of sad.

Nah, pounce is granted by Beast Shape II, so 8th level for Agathiel. Which is also why you'd probably want to select Deinonychus. Sadly, there is no animal with both pounce and a fly speed.

Temperans wrote:

I would say that Vigilante is about equivalent to uMonk.

Not only am I pretty sure that unMonk blows any normal Vigilante out of the water when it comes to dealing damage, you just can't beat the stronger ki powers, especially Empty Body. The Vigilante may turn into a washwoman and walk past the castle guards at 5th level, but the unMonk can turn invisible and fly through the castle walls right and into the royal chamber at 4th level.

Temperans wrote:

Barbarians have Rage & Rage powers, which is practically exclusive, and swingy. Out of Rage there isn't much for the Barbarian to do.

Better offense, and better defense (including Superstition). Plus stuff like flight...

Sure, Vigilante has more non-combat potential, but is that enough to offset the downgrade in combat prowess? It depends on the group and campaign, but I say Barbarian has more to offer for the average party.

Temperans wrote:

Kineticist are pseudo casters, the simple reason that all of their abilities are spell-like or treated as spells/magic.

The topic was "strongest non-casters", which usually means those without a "spells" class feature.

[Dasrak]

If you're only looking at combat strength then the Vigilante is nothing special compared to other martials. It's not the bottom of the pack, but it's never going to come close to a reasonably well-optimized Fighter for DPR. What sets the Vigilante apart from the other martials is its non-combat options. No other full BAB class gets anywhere near the wealth of options or flexibility that the Vigilante does, and this makes the vigilante much more consistent than other classes that are more easily put out of their element.

Saying Vigilante is the strongest martial class is a value judgement. It's a judgement that the Vigilante is good enough to thrive in combat, and that the versatility it brings in other situations is more valuable to the character overall than additional DPR and combat power that a more specialized class like the Fighter might offer.

[Temperans]

As I said before, Teisatsu can gain Ki Powers. If it's a matter of stealth, then we there is little that can see a stealth based Vigilante (stalker).

Even then if it's about flight/stealth for an Avenger. There are multiple ways to get it or air walk (at least 4 items grant fly speed in some way not counting all the different wands). Heck it isn't even that important, except to bypass terrain; which the casters can already do in most situations. And stealth is just a short UMD wand of Vanish/Invisibility away.

[lemeres]

I can see how vigilante can be decent in melee.... but it feels gross.

There are talents that give
-1/2 level to unarmed strikes.
-1/2 level when using dex for attack/str for damage
-a nonlethal damage system that gives up to +5 attack/damage

It seems like it can make a good "not monk"- ...for all the positives and negatives that implies, along with the wonkiness of those bonus sources.

Overall- this is a class for players that played regular martial classes, and they felt jealous of the casters and wanted a ton of options to be useful in more situations. Personally, I would just play slayer, but to each their own.

sidenote- Of course I am going to ignore the sneak attack version of the class. It is core rogue, but with some more talents that might make sneak attacks easier sometimes.

[InvisiblePink]

lemeres wrote:

I can see how vigilante can be decent in melee.... but it feels gross.

Here's another way. Be a Stalker Vigilante with a high base-damage weapon (like an Impact Butchering Axe). Take the Vital Punishment, Leave An Opening, and Up Close And Personal talents.

Vital Punishment lets you apply Vital Strike feats to one attack of opportunity per round. Up Close And Personal lets you make a swift action attack that deals hidden strike damage when you attempt to tumble through someone's square with Acrobatics (even if you don't succeed). Leave An Opening forces your opponent to provoke an AoO from you at the start of their next turn after they take hidden strike damage.

Move up to someone, attempt to tumble through their square, attack as a swift action, Vital Strike as a standard action, then Vital Strike again as an attack of opportunity at the beginning of their turn. All in all, you're dealing two Vital Strikes, one normal attack, and your hidden strike dice.

At level six.

Don't sleep on Stalker.

[Temperans]

You know that really synergize with Cloak and Dagger Style and Dirty Trick Master.

During the surprise rd (assuming you started it next to the enemy). You Vital Strike, Hidden Strike, and free action Dirty Trick dazzing. On their turn, you then AoO Vital Strike and free action Dirty Trick for Daze.

If you somehow manage to get BAB 16 quick enough (maybe just stop at Vigilante 6) for Cloak and Dagger Tactics. You can then move for Hidden Strike, Vital Strike, and free action Dirty Trick. On their turn, Vital Strike and free action Dirty Trick for Daze.

In any case if they try to remove it (since the AoO form Cloak style goes of first), some might rule that you can still daze them.

[Michael Sayre]

Temperans wrote:

Regarding Sphere of Might, I have never used it, but quickly skimmed the rules. It appears to me that Vigilantes continue to out perform even here. The reason again being all the feats equivalent things you get. So a Vigilante has much less problems losing all his general feats, simply using Talents to make up for the loss.

Having written a lot of Spheres of Might, I find that it does make the vigilante less unique in its array of narrative abilities, but it doesn't really undermine the class since the vigilante can buy in to talents without suffering at all. I, personally, would probably still play a vigilante over most other core martial classes in a game including SoM. I was actually playing a luchador monk/vigilante hybrid in our Paizo Return of the Runelords office game that also includes an SoM commander and a core warpriest, everyone was pretty well balanced and performing on very equivalent levels.

Overall, I like vigilante a lot because it's a great core example of well-rounded design principles while preserving niche protection. An avenger vigilante can match a fighter's combat prowess, but only in one of the vigilante's supported combat styles (particularly if the style involves feinting, unarmed combat, or combat maneuvers), even potentially ending up with more combat feats than the fighter by the time all is said and done. They'll simultaneously have an array of social abilities and vastly better skills, so if being a well-rounded character who is still effective in combat without requiring spellcasting is something you value, they're really good for that.

Stalker isn't as obviously powerful, but they have some very relevant and useful abilities and can be just as potent as avengers, though their heavier reliance on kind of setting things up ahead of time and taking advantage of their social identity to maximize things like their appearance line of abilities can make them more complex to manage than some might consider worthwhile in environments like organized play; I, personally, really like both vigilante paths, but they may not be for everyone.

[GRuzom]

Derklord: "To put it bluntly, he doesn't really understand the game much, than."

THEN! ("than and "then" are two different words, they don't mean the same:-)

[Derklord]

InvisiblePink wrote:

Move up to someone, attempt to tumble through their square, attack as a swift action, Vital Strike as a standard action, then Vital Strike again as an attack of opportunity at the beginning of their turn. All in all, you're dealing two Vital Strikes, one normal attack, and your hidden strike dice.

There's one problem though: "A stalker vigilante can apply only one talent marked with an asterisk (*) to a given hidden strike, and only when that hidden strike is dealt against a foe that is unaware of the stalker vigilante’s presence (or who considers him an ally), unless otherwise noted." Emphasis mine. Which means that even if you're lucky and set up an ambush (and stay in hiding for the surprise round), Leave an An Opening only works once per combat, because afterwards, every enemy is aware of the Vigilante.

As I said above, Norgorber’s Silent Shiv can help (at level 10+), but requires quite a lot of investment to be reliable.

@GRuzom: Your right, I wasn't paying to much attention too my writing - sometimes, I play fast and lose with what I type. I'd apologize too any english speaker for misusing there language.

[Tarik Blackhands]

Derklord wrote:

.

@GRuzom: Your right, I wasn't paying to much attention too my writing - sometimes, I play fast and lose with what I type. I'd apologize too any english speaker for misusing there language.

I think you'd mean you'd like to apologize four misusing English.

Also I think the assumption with the actual attack routine is that Up Close and Personal lets you deal proper unaware hidden strike damage on a successful use which I guess makes enough sense to qualify the * conditional. I'd frankly allow it but it is one of those janky bits of rule interactions PF loves doing where it could go either way ("No you're only treating him as unaware, he isn't actually unaware of you")

[Heather 540]

I haven't played her yet, but I have a character that's a Swashbuckler 1 / Bard 1 / Vigilante X.

The Swashbuckler level is to get Weapon Finesse so I can use the human bonus feat for a level one dex to damage, as well as getting parry. The Bard level is for a bit of music and magic, which fits perfectly into her backstory. And then Vigilante the rest of the way.

[doomman47]

Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Derklord wrote:

.

@GRuzom: Your right, I wasn't paying to much attention too my writing - sometimes, I play fast and lose with what I type. I'd apologize too any english speaker for misusing there language.

I think you'd mean you'd like to apologize four misusing English.

Also I think the assumption with the actual attack routine is that Up Close and Personal lets you deal proper unaware hidden strike damage on a successful use which I guess makes enough sense to qualify the * conditional. I'd frankly allow it but it is one of those janky bits of rule interactions PF loves doing where it could go either way ("No you're only treating him as unaware, he isn't actually unaware of you")

Please don't troll the ESL people.

[Tarik Blackhands]

doomman47 wrote:

Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Derklord wrote:

.

@GRuzom: Your right, I wasn't paying to much attention too my writing - sometimes, I play fast and lose with what I type. I'd apologize too any english speaker for misusing there language.

I think you'd mean you'd like to apologize four misusing English.

Also I think the assumption with the actual attack routine is that Up Close and Personal lets you deal proper unaware hidden strike damage on a successful use which I guess makes enough sense to qualify the * conditional. I'd frankly allow it but it is one of those janky bits of rule interactions PF loves doing where it could go either way ("No you're only treating him as unaware, he isn't actually unaware of you")

Please don't troll the ESL people.

If that entire block of text wasn't a deliberate joke (getting every permutation of to/too and they're/there/their wrong after showing previously they have a solid enough grasp of the language) then consider an apology given. Otherwise consider it finishing the joke.

[JiCi]

- You get more social abilities and skills; the social identity is basically the playable version of the Aristocrat and the Expert.

- You get Vigilante talents are feats, in addition of feats.

- The archetypes mostly changed the vigilante alter ego. Then again, they could have made them specializations and nobody would have noticed :P

- Many archetypes can replace classes... to a certain extend. You can have an Avenger, a Stalker, a Zealot and a Warlock... and you have your typical Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wizard party ;)

- The class was playtested to the ground... and many problems were resolved, like the changing time.

[deuxhero]

@Derklord
Barbarian and unMonk are great in combat, but don't really have much use outside of them. It's in the race but can't turn. As for Kineticist, I can't really call them a non-caster.

[Derklord]

Tarik Blackhands wrote:

If that entire block of text wasn't a deliberate joke (getting every permutation of to/too and they're/there/their wrong after showing previously they have a solid enough grasp of the language) then consider an apology given. Otherwise consider it finishing the joke.

Don't forget your/you're and lose/loose! The then/than was an honest mistake/slippery, but my response to GRuzom was deliberately misusing every common wrongly used word pair I could think of.

Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Also I think the assumption with the actual attack routine is that Up Close and Personal lets you deal proper unaware hidden strike damage on a successful use which I guess makes enough sense to qualify the * conditional. I'd frankly allow it but it is one of those janky bits of rule interactions PF loves doing where it could go either way ("No you're only treating him as unaware, he isn't actually unaware of you")

The thing is, you aren't treating the target as unaware of you, you're only applying the "hidden strike damage as if the foe were unaware" - they way I see it, that's just paraphrase for "use the d8 damage dice, not the d4".

@deuxhero: You can have plenty of non-combat abilities on an unMonk, thanks to ki powers like Empty Body, Ki Metabolism, Water Sprint, Abundant Step, Augury, Burst of Insight, Calm Spirit, Message, Psychic Reading, Gaseous Form, Object Reading, Remove Disease, Hypercognition, Neutralize Poison, Purge Spirit, Restoration, Share Memory, Retrocognition, Sessile Spirit, Entrap Spirit, Shadow Walk, Prognostication, Repress Memory, and Earthquake.

[Artofregicide]

Two things:

Derklord wrote:

Depending on what you're doing with it, and the campaign, it may be better than cMonk, Ninja, Cavalier, Samurai, Gunslinger, Swashbuckler, and Brawler. But there are the weakest classes in the game.

Uh, it depends in what regard. Obviously these are all martial classes, and I have no desire to wade into the cesspit that is the eternal debate on martials vs. casters.

But in my Hell's Rebels campaign, the human gunslinger (musketmaster) just shreds encounters with his +1 human bane double barrel musket. Unless he misfires, he hits basically everything even on iterative attacks. And that's with both deadly aim and rapid shot on, so with haste he's firing four times a round. And with a 19-20x4 crit, well, he obliterates anything he crits on. He also has enough skills to contribute in non-combat encounters though his character's personality leads him to avoid social situations. A dragon can pretty much SR or save against every spell a caster throws at them, but they can't stand more than a round or two with the gunslinger.

For the record, I've seen a swashbuckler who was basically untouchable in combat- super high AC, saves, plus charmed life and parry + riposte. Also was basically undetectable while in stealth and constantly crit for serious damage. But I digress.

Pertinent to the OP, I also have a two-handed avenger vigilante. And in regards to versatility (effectiveness in and out of combat) she's pretty darn impressive. I'd say excluding advanced armor and weapon training a vigilante hugely overshadows a fighter in most cases unless you're aiming for a specific feat intensive build. Also, vigilantes are wicked fun to play.

All my players are all having fun and not really feeling left out or ineffective compared to the Sorcerer (the only full caster). I'm also not playing a super high optimization game, but all the characters are fairly well built.

In summary I'd say that the vigilante is a strong class compared to other martials, around the level of slayer or swashbuckler. I'd agree that having both social and vigilante talents plus 6 skills/lvl allows them to stay relevant both in and out of combat. But they're not monstrously OP and I haven't seen a lot of ridiculously high damage dealing builds that rely on vigilante.

[Sam Phelan]

Removed a post. Avoid aggressive language, such as irate profanity, as it is not a productive contribution to the discussion, and harms the tone of the thread.

[pauljathome]

Artofregicide wrote:

the cesspit that is the eternal debate on martials vs. casters.

I think that debate is officially over. PF2 has made it very clear that even Paizo considers PF1 full casters overpowered and in need of a hit with the nerf bat.

[JiCi]

If I may add something else, I feel like it's possible to make an entire party composed only of vigilantes, if you play with the archetypes:

- Fighter: normal (Avenger), and a bunch others
- Rogue: normal (Stalker) and Teisatsu
- Cleric: Zealot and Avenging Beast
- Wizard: Cabalist, Magical Child and Warlock

Some archetypes can fill more than one role too.

I will say that some archetypes aren't well-designed, which can be said for all classes:
- Brute: no control over your form, no ability modifiers when transforming and not even access to Barbarian rage powers.

- Experimenter: no bombs or infusions... which is kinda what gives the alchemist its charm.

- Faceless Enforcer/Masked Maiden: the only problem I see is that they're part of an organisation... and not using them can weaken them in some ways.

- Mutated Defender: no actual Mutant Creature template applied, Mutant Blast is weak and should have been the Kinetic Blast instead and the evolutions don't work. Why? Because some require other higher evolutions, which you cannot access, and no, there's no progression where you can select higher costing evolutions.

- Wildsoul (Ursine): underpowered abilities, and Beast Shape 2.

- Gunmaster: no access to more Gunslinger's grits

[I am Nemesis]

So this thread made me curious. Back before there was a Vigilante class, i ran the adventure path Curse of the Crimson Throne. I forget the particulars of the original character but once the party started working for Field Marshal Cressida Kroft of the Korvosan Guard, one of my players modeled his PC into a Batman-esque character.

Soon I'll be running the AP again for another group and enjoyed that character so much I've decided to make him an NPC foil for the new group. He was a crossbow specialist, so after reading this thread i decided to recreate the character as a Vigilante. I wish i had the original character build to work off of, but i think I've done a decent job of capturing the essence of the character.

He was recruited by the famed weapons master Vencarlo Orisini to become the new generations next Blackjack and named himself after one of the AP's monsters;
the Reefclaw (This horrifying creature has the chitinous head, claws, and front end of a lobster, but the lower body of a spiny eel. A row of bright red spines runs down the length of its back).

Curious to know what everyone thinks, I have a month or so before we start the adventure and any input would be appreciated.

ReefClaw 8th:

Male tiefling vigilante 8
LG Medium outsider (native)
Init +8; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +13
--------------------Defense--------------------
AC 24, touch 16, flat-footed 18 (+8 armor, +6 Dex)
hp 67 (8d8+24)
Fort +4, Ref +14, Will +8; +1 trait bonus vs. disease
Defensive Abilities evasion, unshakable (+8); Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
--------------------Offense--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee gauntlet (from armor) +4/-1 (1d3) or
. . unarmed strike +4/-1 (1d3 nonlethal)
Ranged (L) +2 human-bane darkwood repeating heavy crossbow +11/+11/+6 (2d8+7/19-20 plus 2d6 vs. Human)
Special Attacks hidden strike +4d8/+4d4, powerful build, startling appearance
--------------------Statistics--------------------
Str 10, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 20
Base Atk +6; CMB +4; CMD 22
Feats Deadly Aim, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (repeating heavy crossbow), Pinning Arrow, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
Traits city born - korvosa, reactionary, varisian immunity
Flaws noncombatant, outlaw
Skills Acrobatics +15, Bluff +15, Diplomacy +15, Disable Device +10, Disguise +10 (+30 to appear as part of polite society while in your social identity), Escape Artist +10, Intimidate +18, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (engineering) +6, Knowledge (local) +10, Knowledge (nobility) +10, Perception +13, Ride +10, Sense Motive +10, Sleight of Hand +12, Stealth +25, Survival +6 (+10 in urban and underground settings), Use Magic Device +10; Racial Modifiers +2 Sleight of Hand, +2 Stealth
Languages Aquan, Common, Varisian
SQ dual identity, gutter rat[ARG], heart of the slums[ARG], heart of the streets[APG], mixed heritage[ARG], scion of humanity[ARG], social talents (case the joint[UI], double time[UI], many guises[UI], mockingbird[UI]), truespeaker[ARG], umbral unmasking, versatile human[ARG], vigilante specialization (stalker[UI]), vigilante talents (evasive[UI], hide in plain sight[UI], sniper[UI], sure-footed[UI])
Combat Gear wand of cat's grace (12 charges), wand of cure moderate wounds (19 charges), wand of flame blade (13 charges), wand of force hook charge (25 charges), wand of invisibility (11 charges), wand of knock (10 charges), wand of levitate (9 charges), wand of mirror image (15 charges), wand of silence (6 charges), wand of web (5 charges), aconite root, azure lily pollen[UE], black lotus extract, burnt othur fumes, curare, deathblade, derro bluetear poison, dragon bile, fat-tailed scorpion venom, fugu toxin; Other Gear +3 shadow, improved mithral kikko armor[UC], +2 human-bane darkwood repeating heavy crossbow, efficient quiver, 400 gp
--------------------Special Abilities--------------------
Case the Joint (Ex) Over 1 hr make Know (eng) roll to gain rerolls based on layout if return in next week.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Double Time (Ex) 6 hr shifts at day job, 4 if it involves social grace skill.
Dual Identity (Ex) Each identity maintains own alignment, can switch over 1 min. Magical means treat an ID as non existant while not adopted.
Energy Resistance, Acid (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Acid attacks.
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Evasion (Ex) If succeed on Reflex save for half dam, take none instead.
Gutter Rat Often second-class citizens living in sprawling ghettos and slums, these humans work hard to eke out an existence in a city. Replace the skilled racial trait with heart of the slums and the bonus feat racial trait with mixed heritage (heart of the st
Heart of the Slums +4 Survival in underground/urban environments. Save twice vs. disease, and take the better roll.
Heart of the Streets +1 AC while adjacent to at least two allies. Crowds do not count as difficult terrain.
Hidden Strike +4d8/+4d4 Extra damage vs. unaware/startled foes, less vs. flat-footed/flanked foes.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex) Can hide while being observed as long as within 10 ft of dim light.
Many Guises (Ex) +20 circ bonus to Disguise to appear as an ordinary member of your race.
Mixed Heritage Often human civilization is defined by more than one characteristic. A human with this trait may select a second “Heart of the” racial trait.
Mockingbird (Ex) Can nonmagically alter and throw voice and mimic many sound effects.
Pinning Arrow You can attempt a combat maneuver check with a ranged attack to pin a target in place. The attack is made with your dexterity modifier instead of your strength modifier.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Powerful Build Can function as one size larger where advantageous.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Scion of Humanity Count as a human for any effect related to race. Pass as human without using disguise.
Sniper (Ex) Can make a ranged hidden strikes at any distance.
Startling Appearance (Ex) Attacking unaware foe makes them flat-footed and they -4 to attack you for 1 rd.
Sure-Footed (Ex) Use Acrobatics/Stealth at full speed with no penalty. Move full speed through diff terrain.
Truespeaker Learn two languages for each rank you put in Linguistics.
Umbral Unmasking You cast no shadow (DC 15 Perception to notice)
Unshakable +8 (Ex) Add the listed bonus to the DC of foes attempting Intimidate checks against you.
Versatile Human While they lack some of the training of other humans, the natural talents of versatile humans more than make up for this lack.

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[Temperans]

If this is a homebrew campaign ignore this:

Okay, it appears you have Human, Aasimar, and Tiefling racial traits, but your race is listed as Tiefling; and on top of that you are using 2 human Racial subtypes that replace the same thing (which can't be done, normally).

You have 5 Vigilante talents, but should only get 4 at level 8.

You list the Umbral Unmasking drawback effect but dont have it listed with the flaws. You however, do list the Noncombatant and Outlaw drawbacks, but dont have their effect listed. You also only get 1 drawback (baring homebrew).

Your special abilities list something called, "Powerful Build" which I'm guessing its homebrew.

[Artofregicide]

pauljathome wrote:

Artofregicide wrote:

the cesspit that is the eternal debate on martials vs. casters.

I think that debate is officially over. PF2 has made it very clear that even Paizo considers PF1 full casters overpowered and in need of a hit with the nerf bat.

The debate was never whether martials or casters were stronger. That's pretty obvious. The debate is around whether they should be balanced, how to balance them, etc etc. This has been the case since D&D 3.0. And like I said, it's not a debate I particularly want to have, though I will say that Paizo's history with game balance doesn't lend me much faith in them as the final arbiters of what's "overpowered".

As for PF2, I think there's been a lot of very valid criticism over the design decisions they've made in the playtest, especially in regards to "nerfing" casters. Making a fun game and a balanced game are two completely different things.

The developers of 5E never tried to create a "balanced" game. And yet they're taking the market by storm.

[ShroudedInLight]

I do like the concept of a multi-action system where you need to use one action per component of the spell. The only issue with that sort of malarky is that you need to make the spells sufficiently powerful to compensate for turning spells into 2-3 action events instead of 1 action events like in PF1. Thats where the balance comes into question, and the whole system from class abilities down to basic actions basically needs to be redesigned around "how much of this is equivalent to a spell"

[Dajur]

I played the Hell's Rebels AP with a guy who played a Vigilante character. He loved going from regular guy to superhero and the GM worked with him quite a bit to allow his character to be used effectively and for him to use his abilities. We broke the AP several times because of his character and certain abilities of his. We ended up using his character to create a lot of flavor in the campaign. That said, Vigilante is the kind of character class that the GM has to write additional things for in order for it to be fun to play. Combat-wise he wasn't very good and the Gunslinger and my Rogue/Barbarian far outpaced him in combat. Eventually, he was able to do decent damage after getting a few levels of ShadowDancer, but he was only really good in combat as a flanking partner for a solid 4-5 levels. YMMV with this archetype.

[Squiggit]

Artofregicide wrote:

The developers of 5E never tried to create a "balanced" game. And yet they're taking the market by storm.

I dunno about that. Keeping a tight leash on numbers and player capabilities is a core feature of 5e's design philosophy. The game certainly has its issues, but it's easily the might tightly regulated and tuned game the franchise has ever had.