| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Under RAW, is it legal that Trompe L’oeil allows a player to do the equivalent of Summon Planar Ally, create demiplanes, and control vast armies of Elder Gods at just level 5 ?
Are all constructs really automatically under the control of the creator?
Is there really no limit to the creatures that can be copied? Would copying yourself many times really be effective? Do Trompe L’oeil really retain all supernatural and SLA abilities?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Are all constructs really automatically under the control of the creator?
From the construct handbook: "Once the crafting process is complete, the resulting construct is ready to receive orders. A construct recognizes its creator intuitively and obeys all commands issued to it by that individual." That's regarding the craft construct feat, which is the feat used to create trompes. So, in this case, yes.
Is there really no limit to the creatures that can be copied?
From the template entry: “Trompe l’oeil” is an inherited template that can be added to any corporeal creature that has an Intelligence score (referred to hereafter as the base creature)." You're limited to corporeal creatures (sorry ghosts) that have an intelligence score (RIP vermin and unintelligent undead).
Would copying yourself many times really be effective?
Depending on your character build it might be more or less effective. If you're a 20th level wizard, well, having two thousand of those as minions is pretty useful.
Do Trompe L’oeil really retain all supernatural and SLA abilities?
As an inherited template, the only things you change on the base creature are what's noted in the template itself. The special qualities section only adds two abilities and does not mention removing any of the existing supernatural and SLA's the creature has, so the modified creature retains those.
There are many things you can do in pathfinder according to raw that are silly when carried to extremes. This is one of them.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
holy crap
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Unlike other crafting feats construct crafting has the caster level pq as a hard limit that cannot be skipped, so the cl requirement is a nice, built in way to limit constructs to level appropriate power levels. And stupidly this one has no CL requirement. Glaring oversight.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A painting of Baba Yaga won't duplicate all the Permanencies she has on herself, it won't duplicate the Artifacts she's created, and it won't duplicate her Dancing Hut as her familiar.
Great Old Ones have the 300 foot Unspeakable Presence aura with various effects, so good luck dealing with that.
Also, the entire end goal is based on the precedent that Lamashtu ascended by killing a god with an army of Demons. We don't know HOW she did that and, since true deities have no stat blocks, affecting a deity in ANY WAY AT ALL is 100% up to the GM.
The entire premise is also built on assuming the GM will let you use this broken-ass template without any houseruling fixing it to work as intended.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I honestly feel like these were left in as hidden features just so that GMs can occasionally just use the good old "Rocks Fall" hazard.
If someone showed up to one my my tables with this I'd kindly ask them to screw their head back on straight, and if they persist in their "right" to do this they'v have two options, play a pre-gen I can whip up really fast, or reroll.
This is clearly just a hypothetical scenario and I don't think I know about disruptive enough to actually TRY to play this PC, but I wont lie, even these discussions about the exploits and how they work just... rub me wrong. It's like sharing info on how to build a bomb in your basement, I don't have any problem with the info you know... being out there.. but I'd certainly be worried if I knew someone who wanted to make use of said plans.
I feel like "an infinite amount of demons" is only sufficient to kill a god in situations where the god has made themselves vulnerable for whatever reason.
If you actually tried to do this with your army of paintings, you would probably find your warehouse of canvases repeatedly burning down. I figure "put an end to this sort of thing" is something gods will work together on.
I mean, anything of high mythic tier can't be permanently killed without being CDG'd with an artifact, which is not something the painter wizard can create, and gods are even harder to kill.
There's a chance that the construct tries to kill its creator, and as the creator is only 5th level it has a reasonable chance of succeeding. And as the number of constructs rises, the chance of this approaches 1.
Not that the numbers are given anywhere, of course.
Trompe l'oeil don't occasionally try to kill their creators specifically--they try to kill the original model. If a wizard crafts a trompe l'oeil efreeti, there's a chance that it'll try to kill the original efreeti that was the subject of the portrait. It should never try to kill the creator unless the creator painted themself or is terminally stupid. I suppose if the creator doesn't bother to give the construct any orders to the contrary, it could kill its creator.
By the by, this all assumes that the GM isn't playing with the Construct Handbook (which is a Campaign Setting splat, not a main line rule book, and thus not necessarily in play) or that the "crafted constructs obey their creators" rule is printed somewhere else. If not, all bets are off.
I feel like "an infinite amount of demons" is only sufficient to kill a god in situations where the god has made themselves vulnerable for whatever reason.
If you actually tried to do this with your army of paintings, you would probably find your warehouse of canvases repeatedly burning down. I figure "put an end to this sort of thing" is something gods will work together on.
I mean, anything of high mythic tier can't be permanently killed without being CDG'd with an artifact, which is not something the painter wizard can create, and gods are even harder to kill.
If an arbitrarily high number of wishes isn't sufficient to glom together an artifact from the aether, it should be enough to find and procure one. And fireproofing your warehouse secreted-away demiplane of paintings should be child's play. I'd be more worried about being murdered before you began. Gods are known for being able to prophesy.
|
|
There is a very simple solution:
"Yes, your trick works and it was done several million years ago in another world. The guy that did it used a few million wishes to stop other people from using it. You have just triggered one of those wishes, roll a will and save vs. Dc 3.000." "Nat 20 !" "Good for you, your mind hasn't been destroyed. The fortitude save?" "Failed." "Your body has been destroyed and you are dead. The members of your party see some kind of daemon appear and catch something. Any attempt at resurrection fail, apparently the soul has been destroyed. Create a new character."
If a trick that gives infinite wishes or another kind of infinite power works there will be one creature that benefits from it and the use that infinite power to stop other people for doing it again.
I'm not sure that the gods would even have to get involved. I mean, think of it from the perspective of the outsiders. Some wizard creates an "evil doppelganger" of you who then proceeds to attempt to kill you. Or better yet, the wizard made one of your friend and did kill them.
It wouldn't take long before you would have outsiders banding together to deal with the wizard and his creations. Since the wizard is only 5th level the task shouldn't be too difficult. Even if the wizard is siting in a timeless plane with infinite constructs all they would have to do is use a wish or miracle to give the plane the dead magic trait. Now the problem wizard is trapped along with his now non-functioning creations. If he has a gate leaving the plane gather around the gate to gank him as soon as he pops out.
Obviously this doesn't work, or it would have happened. No sane GM would allow it to work, or it would end his campaign.
I think the OPs question though is what, if any, rules support is there for a GM disallowing this, other than by fiat.
There isn't a huge amount, but I think their is some. First off, this is creating custom constructs via templates, and that is pretty clearly within the GMs control of what to allow and how to modify. As and example, I wouldn't allow any spell like abilities with expensive material components to be replicated (which shuts this down completely.) I think it even has some support for that concept in the template itself "Armor and shields equipped by a trompe l’oeil melt into puddles of non-magical paint when the creature is destroyed" this is of course designed to prevent a PC from painting wealth (I would include being wielded by someone else as well), and a similar concept for something like wishes seems appropriate. Basically an illusion effect that dissolves into paint would fit the theme quite well.
Lastly of course, if you feel compelled to honor everything written in the rules as though it were handed down directly from god, you can just be as draconian about wealth by level. As soon as a PC does anything that would take them beyond that threshold, take away enough stuff, at your choice, to make it appropriate and remember things like inherent bonuses and constructs under your control are part of wealth.
If a trick that gives infinite wishes or another kind of infinite power works there will be one creature that benefits from it and the use that infinite power to stop other people for doing it again.
I would say the exception to this would be Nethys' apotheosis, but nobody has any clue how to do what he did (or even what it was that he did other than "use his mastery of magic to become omniscient"), and Nethys sure isn't telling anyone since he wants others to study things themselves.
Speaking of Nethys, though...The thought enters the casters brain, he begins executing the PLAN and ... welcome to being the drooling idiot (aka the 'Prime Example') servant of the Deity of Time and Fate.
Most deities are not omniscient (they cannot observe all things all the time). Nethys is a notable exception as his omniscience is what caused him to ascend to true deity status and earned him his title as "The All-Seeing Eye". Nethys also seems like the kind of guy who would only put a stop to these shenanigans if they got seriously out of hand; he'd likely watch to see where it goes for a while first, then send Arcanotheign to deal with it if it needs to be dealt with.
I don't think there is a specific deity of both Time and Fate, by the way.
If an arbitrarily high number of wishes isn't sufficient to glom together an artifact from the aether, it should be enough to find and procure one. And fireproofing yourI feel like "an infinite amount of demons" is only sufficient to kill a god in situations where the god has made themselves vulnerable for whatever reason.
If you actually tried to do this with your army of paintings, you would probably find your warehouse of canvases repeatedly burning down. I figure "put an end to this sort of thing" is something gods will work together on.
I mean, anything of high mythic tier can't be permanently killed without being CDG'd with an artifact, which is not something the painter wizard can create, and gods are even harder to kill.
warehousesecreted-away demiplane of paintings should be child's play. I'd be more worried about being murdered before you began. Gods are known for being able to prophesy.
I especially like this answer. The moment the character embarks on their quest to perform this campaign-destroying endeavor, they vanish from existence. Their body, all their possessions (on or off their person) and all records of them are irrevocably erased. The other characters are informed that they have no memory of the character. In fact, what has happened is that the character has been destroyed some time ago by a force that foresaw what was to happen.
The other PCs have no memory of their lost ally; thus, they will not make any attempts to barter with deities, travel to long-lost planes, or anything else to bring them back. The handful of entities that might be aware of what has transpired are unlikely to lift a finger to reverse it.
It's a completely rational and reasonable GM fiat response.
GM says "no"
Obviously this doesn't work, or it would have happened. No sane GM would allow it to work, or it would end his campaign.
I think the OPs question though is what, if any, rules support is there for a GM disallowing this, other than by fiat.
It should be noted, magic item creation rules impose additional costs on items able to use spells with expensive components.
If the creature created has an SLA with x/day usage that would normally require an expensive component, the component cost x50 must be paid separately.
If the creature created has an SLA with at will usage and an expensive material component, the component cost x100 must be paid separately.
In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.
Personally, as a DM, I would rule that no mention is made in the cost write up for spells or spell like abilities. Which is to say, the costs listed are for HD only as there are no specific rules altering standard magic item creation costs for anything other than the base construct.
Magic items get very expensive very quickly when they start casting spells (I would use staves as the baseline cost for adding spells and SLAs).
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's not how crafting trompes works at all. They have their own construction rules. They're just incredibly underpriced for what you can do with them. It's also not the only ridiculous thing you can do in pathfinder if you follow the rules.
As usual, the best defense between a table and ridiculous things is a good rapport between gm and players, and shared expectations. And maybe the occasional thrown book.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
well in the op link, the writer uses the fact the wizard can make constructs of himself to make more constructs to make that said army of demons\gods etc. but he completly disregard the fact that this specific construct has an agenda to kill the original craeture it copies.
so while it might have to follow orders of the creator, it has enough Intelligence to do the devil's kind of 'wish granting'. also since everything THEY create must follow their orders. it should be very hard for the original not to neglect the specific orders of said (trilion of bilions)^64~ army. and avoid getting them to issue the 'kill that flimsy old aged level 5 wizard' order in some way (he asked to warm up the house? FIREBALL !!)
so as a GM id say by all means go ahead, use this idea, but be very careful of what you order....
I'm so glad I just don't play with @$$holes...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Achaekek notices, and does not approve.
Good luck.
Achaekek notices, and does not approve.
Good luck.
I would absolutely have him just show up and exterminate with prejudice the PC who attempted this or any equivalent shenanigans...
Before they've successfully crafted a single construct.
Also worth mention that Wishcraft, especially repeated uses/abuses have increasingly unpredictable and catastrophic side effects.
|
|
Also worth mention that Wishcraft, especially repeated uses/abuses have increasingly unpredictable and catastrophic side effects.
The kind of players that really try to use this kind of shenanigans will protest that that is written in an AP for 3.5. I don't think it was reprinted.
Thankfully that kind of player is extremely rare.
Also worth mention that Wishcraft, especially repeated uses/abuses have increasingly unpredictable and catastrophic side effects.The kind of players that really try to use this kind of shenanigans will protest that that is written in an AP for 3.5. I don't think it was reprinted.
Thankfully that kind of player is extremely rare.
It's still a canon part of the Golarion setting, as far as I know.
Nope because brigh comes in waves her hand and steals the ability to create constructs from that caster the minute they get up and running. Torag comes rolling in with his inquisitors who prevent the abuse of constructs as well.
you can’t Fabricate a painting.
Why not?
Fabricate
Components V, S, M (the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created)
Target up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text
Duration instantaneousYou convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.
You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.
Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet of material to be affected by the spell.
Mineral: a solid, naturally occurring inorganic substance
A painting seems like a valid product, the materials are cheap (and I don't think they'd count as minerals), the painting itself isn't a magic item, and most paintings aren't many cubic feet.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Bruh...the materials for paintings are not cheap...even NOW when we have advanced chemistry to get the pigments...
This character has hit points, and gods don't. Gods win.
Still God can die.
Aroden,Acavna, Amaznen are dead. Ydersius a serpenforlk God die by the hand of Savith a fighter 20/champion 6Even is Pathfinder don't show you they stats it don't mean they don't have it,
Bruh...the materials for paintings are not cheap...even NOW when we have advanced chemistry to get the pigments...
Well, cheap by the standards of adventurers who routinely spend what most people would consider a year's wages on a Wand of Cure Light Wounds and then use it up after ten minutes of adventuring...
This character has hit points, and gods don't. Gods win.Still God can die.
Aroden,Acavna, Amaznen are dead. Ydersius a serpenforlk God die by the hand of Savith a fighter 20/champion 6Even is Pathfinder don't show you they stats it don't mean they don't have it,
None of those have stats. They die due to narrative. Ydersius is still alive and wriggling around the Darklands even after both getting his head chopped off AND the events of Serpents' Skull.
None of those have stats. They die due to narrative. Ydersius is still alive and wriggling around the Darklands even after both getting his head chopped off AND the events of Serpents' Skull.This character has hit points, and gods don't. Gods win.Still God can die.
Aroden,Acavna, Amaznen are dead. Ydersius a serpenforlk God die by the hand of Savith a fighter 20/champion 6Even is Pathfinder don't show you they stats it don't mean they don't have it,
But aroden it self say that the god can die. Even if there are narrative or chopped off,a mortal can still kill a God.
If God's can't die why the have so fear to enter in a planar war in the end as you guys said god don't have stats so they don't die
We don't know how Aroden died, so that contributes nothing. Yserdrius was crippled, but not killed by a mythic champion. Acavna and Amaznen died in a world shaping, mythic event. Curchanos was killed by a demigod.
None of these events suggest or imply that it is within the power of a PC to kill a deity.
Bruh...the materials for paintings are not cheap...even NOW when we have advanced chemistry to get the pigments...Well, cheap by the standards of adventurers who routinely spend what most people would consider a year's wages on a Wand of Cure Light Wounds and then use it up after ten minutes of adventuring...
Dude, if you're looking for any realism, there's a reason colors like blue and indigo were royalty only....because people with the wealth of entire countries were the only people rich enough to own them.
Gods can't die unless there is a plot reason that makes them vulnerable. Only the GM and the setting authors can create such a plot reason.
This is literally the reason that the deities have never been stated up in Pathfinder, the writers have come out and said things to the effect of "if you give it stats, players will figure out how to kill it."
So even with infinite wishes, and unlimited demons, Iomedae can still squish you like a bug if the GM (or James Jacobs et al.) wants her to. With that amount of power you could probably "destroy Golarion" but then Rovagug would eat you.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am always amused at the arrogance, the idea that a PC has come up with the prefect plan that no Runelord, Archdevil, wizard king of Azlant, drow matriarch or great wyrm dragon has ever conceived of.
Dude, if you're looking for any realism, there's a reason colors like blue and indigo were royalty only....because people with the wealth of entire countries were the only people rich enough to own them.Bruh...the materials for paintings are not cheap...even NOW when we have advanced chemistry to get the pigments...Well, cheap by the standards of adventurers who routinely spend what most people would consider a year's wages on a Wand of Cure Light Wounds and then use it up after ten minutes of adventuring...Why are you even going off about this? At the end of the day, we know the value of the cost of raw materials for the paintings in question.
It's 166.66, 333.33, 666.66, 1000, 1333.33, 2000, or 2666.66 gp, respectively, based upon size. There are plenty of other things to argue about, but this is one of the things that is actually very much cut and dried.
If you want to try to rebalance the template, going after the cost of the painting itself is barking up entirely the wrong tree, too.
I dont need to rebalance the template, as anyone trying to abuse it will find their party plagued by higher level divine classes from the various gods who protect against the abuse of and abusive use of constructs.