Angvar Thestlecrit

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I don't see why you wouldn't be able to take 20.

Nothing states that rolling a 1 on a stealth check is an automatic failure. A 1 is just a 1. For example, lets say you're just rolling under normal circumstances. You have a +20 and you roll a 1. Your total is 21. Unless someone makes a perception check that beats your 21 stealth they do not see you. Even if they roll a nat 20 they will not see you unless they have a bonus.

Additionally, there is no penalty for failure. If in the above scenario someone beats your dc 21 check. There is nothing preventing you from creating a distraction and hiding again. What's more when you make that second check you do not suffer any sort of penalty to your check. If you failed at your bluff check to create a distraction you just don't get to hide.

As for duration to take 20. It takes 20 times the normal length of time. Normally it takes a move action to hide. 1 round is 6 seconds and you get 2 move actions a round. So, it would take 10 rounds or 1 minute to take 20 on the stealth check.

Provided of course that you meet the pre-requistes for taking 20.

Taking 20 wrote:
When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, if you roll a d20 enough times, eventually you will get a 20. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.

So, if no one is threatening or observing you for the 1 minute it takes then you are good to go. If battle is going on next door then you should be fine. Unless someone next door takes the time to make a perception check then that might allow them to detect you. It doesn't prevent you from taking 20. But in that case taking 20 probably wouldn't help as they noticed you over the combat through a closed door.

Perception Modifiers wrote:

Distance to the source, object, or creature +1/10 feet

Through a closed door +5
Unfavorable conditions +2
Creature making the check is distracted +5

Assuming you're not trying to hide right next to the door the enemy is probably at least 50 feet away from you meaning they need to make a perception check against

1+Your modifer+5(for distance)+5(closed door)+2(because of fighting)+5(because they are distracted) = 1+your mod+17.

Your 1 at that point is the same as if you'd rolled an 18.


tearnImale wrote:

Really simple, is there a first-party way to get either ironskin or barkskin as a spell as a sorcerer or wizard?

If neither is possible, what would be a cheap way to one or both at a decent level a game goes on?

There are a couple of methods that come to mind that all work with levels in sorcerer/wizard. If you just want to flat add the spells to your spell list there are the following methods.

->The Prestige Class Pathfinder Savant can grab spells from any class list.
->A Samsaran can use the racial trait Mystic Past Life to add barkskin and ironskin to their spell list because these spells do appear on the summoner and witch lists respectively, meaning they exist as arcane spells.
->A wizard can gain the Arcane Discovery: Faith Magic to gain Barkskin. Ironskin isn't an option since it isn't a domain spell.

If you just want the ability to cast the spells and don't care if it appears on your actual spell list. There are some ways to gain these as limited use spells.

->A one level dip in Lore Master qualifies you to take the feat Secret of Magical Discipline. This feat lets you cast any spell 1/day. It can be taken multiple times.
->The feats Fiendish Obediance(Aldinach) +Damned Soldier lets you take 1st sential boon to cast barkskin 2/day as a SLA.

There are probably other methods.

Edit: I knew there was a guide floating around that talks about getting spells on your list from other classes. I found it here. Though obviously not everything on there is going to work for a sorcerer/wizard.


gnoams wrote:
The best thing to summon to fight ants is... more ants! Summon your own swarm, drop it on the enemy swarm, and watch the miniature battle.

A swarm vs swarm fight, should probably use the mass combat rules...


Most of the clerics I've played recently were necromancers. It's hard to pass up early access to animate dead and the ability to heal your minions. There's even multiple ways to get the missing arcane spells.

That being said Pathfinder still doesn't support being a necromancer as much as 3.5 did so it's a struggle to find worth while things to spend feats on. At best I have found one or two good feats and half a dozen mediocre ones I could take.

I agree that clerics look kind of lackluster but i think it's because they're fairly unchanged from 3.0 and so unless you care about your domain abilities/FCB you give up very little persuing a prestige class that gives caster progression.


The spell describes them as being shapeless. So, I imagine they're just sort of floating blobs.


Sandslice wrote:
Michael Talley 759 wrote:

Have to admit the rings of spell Knowledge are an amusing way to gain the spells for certain.

and I had completely forgotten about the Deific Obedience Feat, it is fairly close to the Arcane Disciple feat in that aspect as well to me.

These are amusing ways to create a 'Holy' Sorcerer or Wizard

Since the spell-like ability access is the first boon, you'd need to be level 12 in order to get it; for create food and water, you'd need to turn to our boy Cayden Cailean.

Rahu also offers it if you don't mind worshiping a LE demi-god. Unfortunately, demi-gods fall under the fiendish Obedience feat. So, while you could use it to qualify for Evangelist you wouldn't be able to pick up the 1st boon until 10th level.

Alternatively, you could just grab the feat Diverse Obedience which would not only let you grab the 1st boon at 10th level but it lets you cherry pick between the Evangelist, Exalted, and Sentinel abilities at higher levels.


Darc1396 wrote:
So I'm attempting to make a build around the Flame Blade spell, but down to my question. If I were to take 1 level in Green Scourge Druid and then the rest of my levels in the Hunter class would I be able to sacrifice my Hunter spells to use the ability from the Green Scourge archtype? I raised this question due to the Nature Training class feature of Hunter.

Well, to start with nature training only applies to abilities that improve or modify an animal companion.

Secondly, green scourge modifies a druid's ability to spontaneously cast summon nature's ally in place of a memorized druid spell. So, no this doesn't work (hunters don't even memorize spells).

Thirdly, even if it did work hunters only get upto 6th level spells and gain them at a slower rate than druids meaning you wouldn't get full use of the ability.


Michael Talley 759 wrote:
There was the 3.5 feat from the Complete Divine for example that would add spells to the spells known for any arcane class. You had to have 4 Ranks In Knowledge Religion & Spellcraft as well a devotion to a deity. The effect would grant one spells from a single domain, and would grant you a Max level from the domain equal to your wisdom score Minus 10 (Like a regular caster) You wouldn't gain the Domains Special abilities just the spells, sadly each could only be cast once per day (On the plus side they don't count against your normal daily casts) and it caps with the casters spell levels (So if you can only cast 1st level spells when you take it, you only get the 1st level spell, but as you level you gain the others as you gain access to spell levels)

FWIW this ability does exist in pathfinder. The exalted prestige class does the exact same thing at 5th level.

Also, the Deific Obedience feat grants you a SLA based on the deity you choose. So, depending on the spell you're after this could work. For example Cayden Cailean has create food and water 1/day as an option for Deific Obedience (Exalted).

edit: sadly one of the pre-reqs for the the class is the ability to cast a 3rd level divine spell meaning it's not something a sorcerer would be able to take without shenanigans or DM approval.


Wonderstell wrote:

There's also the Unseat feat which allows you to Bull Rush a mounted foe in addition to dealing the damage, and making them prone on top of that.

And if you want to auto-succeed there's the Lance of Jousting which forces an 'impossible' Ride check.

The easiest way to deal with an impossible check is to just not roll.


As a DM you shouldn't dictate what players should or shouldn't do. Just let them have the ability to pay for healing services. This could mean going back to town every time they want to heal or even letting them hire an NPC with healing abilities. The NPC won't fight for them (that's not in their contract) but for X gold per day they will heal injured party members to the best of their ability.

Have the players pay at least half up front which is then kept safe somewhere in town. This way players won't try to get free healing by stiffing the NPC and/or stealing back what was paid to the NPC.


Well, sadly psychic is one of those classes that hasn't strongly interested me so I don't think I can provide much aide in that regard.

When it comes to druids that are competent in melee I do have the following. The nice thing about being a druid is that you can do any of these builds and you also get to still be a 9th level caster.

Tentacled Horror (Monk/Druid)

Spoiler:

Key concepts: A druid that can pounce and get many attacks
Alignment: LN
Class: Monk(1), Druid(X)
Archetypes: Kraken Caller(Druid), Master of Many Styles(Monk)
Nature Bond: Plains Domain
Feats: Jabbing Style(1st), Weapon Focus[tentacle](3rd), Feral Combat Training(5th), Improved Natural Attack[tentacle](7th)
Suggested Feats: Monastic Legacy
Suggested Gear: 2 Beaststrike Clubs, Amulet of Mighty Fists (Cruel, spell storing), Wisdom Headband, Dragonhide Breastplate(Spellstoring), Meditation Crystal, Cracked Pale Green Prism, Helm of the Mammoth Lord
Key Features: Prep rounds:
Cast Liveoak to have a Treant minion (CR 8)
Cast Frigid Touch into the Spell Storing Armor to shut down other natural attackers for 1 round
Cast Frostbite into Spell Storing Amulet
Cast Greater Magic Fang to give all Natural Attacks a +1 for 12 hours
Cast Hunter's Blessing for +2 to pretty much everything in the Terrain and vs the creature type you suspect you will face for 12 hours

Use Wildshape to grow 6 tentacles, for a total of 8 with 2 Beaststrike Clubs for 120 minutes.
Cast Resinous Skin for DR 5/Piercing and chance to disarm Melee weapon using opponents for 120 minutes
Cast Stone Skin for DR 10/Adamantine for 120 minutes
Cast Barkskin for +5 natural armor for 120 minutes
Cast Echolocation for Blindsight 40' for 120 minutes
Cast Freedom of Movement for 120 minutes
Cast Greensight to see through thick plant matter if the encounter is in a forest for 120 minutes
Cast Heightened Awareness to add +4 to initiative check for 120 minutes
Cast 2 Protection from Energy's picking Cold and Fire(or whatever else if you have knowledge of the fight, Cold is important because Protection grants Immunity, meaning Frigid Touch will not stagger, and fire is common)

Cast Bone Fists for +1 bonus to natural armor and +2 damage for 12 minutes
Cast Chameleon Stride (domain, 20% miss chance) for 12 minutes
Cast Fickle Winds to shut down Archers for 12 minutes
Cast Strong Jaw to bring the tentacles up to 2d6 for 12 minutes
Cast Bristle to convert up to 4 natural armor into damage for 12 minutes
Cast Antilife Shell to hedge out non-reach enemy melee fighters for 12 minutes

Cast Haste(from domain) for 12 rounds
Cast Siphon Might on the Horse granting yourself an enhancement bonus to Str of 1d6+5 (going with an average of 3, so +8) for 12 rounds
Cast Vengeful Comets to attempt to counter spellcasters for 12 rounds
Cast Lockjaw to add grab to one of your attacks for 12 rounds.
Cast Frostbite to add 1d6+12 nonlethal cold damage and Fatigue to the next 12 natural attacks.

Tentacles are secondary natural attacks, but if you only have 1 natural attack type, it is considered a primary attack.


---------------------------------------------
Brutal Goliath (Fighter/Druid)
Spoiler:

Key concepts: A druid that can shape change into a troll in order to wade into combat
Trait: Giant-blooded
Race: Human or Half-elf or Tiefling or Half-Orc
Racial Trait: Heart of the Fey and Focused Study or Military Tradition(Human), Ancestral Arms or adaptability (Half-elf), Variant Option 16(Tiefling), Orc Atavism or [Shaman’s Apprentice & Toothy](Half-Orc)
Class: Fighter (1), Druid(4), Barbarian(2), Druid(X)
Archetypes: Titan Fighter – Fighter / Druid – Goliath Druid
Domain: Rage
Rage Power: Accurate Stance(UC) or Surprise Accuracy or Beast Totem Lesser, Beast Totem & Beast Totem Greater
Eldritch Heritage Bloodline: Abyssal
Feat Tree +6 CON: Skill Focus (1st), Exotic Weapon Proficiency [Butchering Axe](1st), Power Attack(3rd), Shaping Focus(5th), Vital Strike(7th), Eldritch Heritage(9th), Improved Eldritch Heritage (11th), Furious Finish(13th)
Feat Tree Pounce: Racial Heritage[Ogre](1st), Exotic Weapon Proficiency [Butchering Axe](1st), Power Attack(3rd), Shaping Focus(5th), Vital Strike(7th), Raging Brute(9th), Extra Rage Power(11th), Furious Finish(13th)
Feat Tree Pounce & +6 CON: Skill Focus (1st), Exotic Weapon Proficiency [Butchering Axe](1st), Racial Heritage[Ogre](3rd), Shaping Focus(5th), Raging Brute (7th), Eldritch Heritage(9th), Extra Rage Power(11th), Improved Eldritch Heritage (11th)
Suggested Feats: Die Hard, Deathless Initiate, Cleave, Raging Brute, Cleaving Finish,
Suggested Gear: Glove of Storing, Oversized Shrinking Growing Butchering Axe (Furious, Impact, Vicious or Furyborn), Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid (Butchering Axe), Irongrip Gauntlets, Cord of Stubborn Resolve, Pauldrons of the Juggernaut, Amulet of the Blooded
Key Features: • Base Damage for the Oversized Butchering Axe is 4d6
• Weapon is 2-handed so you get 1-1/2 Str +3 per -1 via power attack
• With Enlarge person damage then becomes 6d6
• With Impact damage becomes 8d6
• With vital strike damage then becomes 16d6
• At 3rd Level (assuming nat 20 str & E person) Dmg = 6d6+12 (33 avg dmg)
• At 13th Level you can assume the form of a troll gaining regeneration & rend
• At 15th level you can assume the form of a huge giant (24d6 butchering axe)
• At 19th level( (assuming nat 30 str & wildshape & rage) Base Dmg = 24d6+40 (Avg 124/184 max)
• Growing can increase the size again, but only if the weapon is already huge and only for 10 min. per day

------------------------------------------------------------
Brutal Body Bludgeoner (Fighter/Rogue/Druid/Barbarian)
Spoiler:

Key concepts: A druid that can shape change into a giant and wield enemies as weapons
Trait: Surprise Weapon
Race: Human
Racial Trait: Heart of the Fey
Class: Fighter(1), Rogue(1), Druid(9),Barbarian(2), Druid(X)
Archetypes: Goliath Druid(Druid), Makeshift Scrapper(Rogue), Unarmed Fighter(Fighter)
Domain: Rage
Rage Power: Body Bludgeon(13th)
Feat Tree with piercing “fun”: Improved Grapple(1st), Racial Heritage[Ogre](1st), Improvisational Focus(3rd), Weapon Versatility(5th), Raging Brute (7th), Hamatula Strike(9th), Powerful Shape(11th), Shikigami Mimicry(13th), Shikigami Manipulation(15th)
Bonus Feats: Improved Unarmed strike(1st), Shikigami Style(1st), Catch Off-Guard(2nd), Throw Anything(2nd),
Suggested Feats: Shaping Focus
Suggested Gear: Gloves of Improvised Might, Cord of Stubborn Resolve, Pauldrons of the Juggernaut, Swordmaster’s Flair – Blue Scarf, Thorny Ioun Stone(Violet), Brawling(Armor Enchantment), Adhesive(Armor Enchant)
Key Features: • At 13th level you a proficient with enemies you wield and they deal damage equal to 2 size categories larger.
• At 13th level you can pierce an enemy with another enemy

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Titan Mauler Goliath (Fighter/Druid)
Spoiler:

Key concepts: A druid that can shape change into a troll in order to wade into combat
Race: Human or Half-elf or Tiefling or Half-Orc
Racial Trait: Heart of the Fey and Focused Study or Military Tradition(Human), Ancestral Arms or adaptability (Half-elf)
Class: Barbarian (2), Druid(X)
Archetypes: Titan Mauler (Barbarian) / Goliath Druid (Druid)
Eldritch Heritage Bloodline: Abyssal
Domain: Rage
Rage Power: Beast Totem Lesser(2nd), Beast Totem(13th) & Beast Totem Greater(14th)
Feat Tree Pounce: Possessed Hand(1st), Hand’s Autonomy(1st), Two-Weapon Fighting(3rd), Double Slice(5th), Racial Heritage[Ogre](7th), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting(9th), Raging Brute(11th), Extra Rage Power(13th), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (17th)
Feat Tree +6 CON: Skill Focus(1st), Exotic Weapon Proficiency [Butchering Axe](1st), Two-Weapon Fighting(3rd), Double Slice(5th), Eldritch Heritage(7th), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting(9th), Improved Eldritch Heritage(11th), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (17th)
Suggested Feats: Die Hard, Deathless Initiate, Cleave,
Suggested Gear: 2x Shrinking Butchering Axes (Growing, Furious, Impact, Vicious or Furyborn), Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid (Butchering Axe), Cord of Stubborn Resolve, Pauldrons of the Juggernaut, Amulet of the Blooded, Dual-Balanced (weapon mod), Cracked Pale Green Prism
Key Features: • Base Damage for the enlarged Butchering Axe is 4d6
• With Enlarge person damage then becomes 4d6
• With Impact damage becomes 6d6
• At 3rd Level (assuming nat 20 str & E person) Dmg = 4d6+12 (24 avg dmg)
• At 13th Level you can assume the form of a troll gaining regeneration & rend
• At 15th level you can assume the form of a huge giant (24d6 butchering axe)
• At 19th level( (assuming nat 30 str & wildshape & rage) Base Dmg = 24d6+40 (Avg 124/184 max)
• Growing can increase the size again, but only if the weapon is already huge and only for 10 min. per day

-------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as templates go. Honestly, I would just look at AoN or D20PFSRD and start out by applying all of the ones that you can find that don't alter your creature type (gaining subtypes is fine). At the very least you'll want to add things like the advanced template since it's a straight buff. There are other templates that are probably beneficial but you'll just have to look at them closer to make sure they aren't negatively impacting your build also they are probably incompatible with each other so you won't be able to grab more than one of these.

As far as races go. IMO just pick Azlanti. It's human except you get to add the +2 to all of your stats instead of just 1. You still count as being human meaning you can grab the feat racial heritage to count as any other race that's useful to count as. Though depending on what build you decide to go with another race may synergize better.


The thing I have to wonder is do you actually mean by OP?

Do you mean a character that literally breaks the game? or just something that's very powerful?

A character doesn't need to be level 25 in order to be OP. Such characters likely wouldn't even be much fun for everyone else.

Oh, the monster has 10 billion hp? that's fine I walk up to it and... well it dies. next?

There have been builds on the forums like this. I consider them OP because they break the game to the point of it not being fun any more. Since they make some core aspect of the game meaningless. On the other hand. There are builds that are simply very powerful (builds that I'm sure some DMs would consider OP) and those could be fun to play.

In any case it would be good to have some guidelines. What type of character do you want to play?

My character concept notebook is almost 200 pages long now and contains 157 builds (just counted out of curiosity). The thing is, there are still some classes I've never even looked at because they just don't interest me. I only mention this to give you an idea of just how broad your question really is.

What do YOU want to do during combat?
cast spells?
command minions?
shoot a bow?
dual wield?
Club things with a giant weapon?
Use unarmed attacks?
use natural weapons?
Heal people?

Once you give an answer to that question it will be much easier to give you something like what you're looking for. Also, how much wealth do you get to start with? Or is it assumed that you can simply have any and/all magic items/artifacts you want?

edit: It looks like you responded before I finished making my post. 800,000gp and you're thinking a druid. Cool. That um.... oddly still doesn't answer the question. Druids can be quite versatile and I have a druid build for each of the things I listed above(except perhaps shooting a bow)


Diego Rossi wrote:

Mending repair hit point damage, being bend don't cause any hit point damage. Being bent don't change an item hit points.

Humidity gluing pages together and smudging inks similarly doesn't cause a loss of hit point.

The paper becoming brittle can be a form of hit point damage. From my point of view, it reduces the item hardness, not its hit points. Until you handle it in the wrong way the piece of paper will conserve its form.

It all depends on how much narrative power you want to give to mending.

You can use it to restore a burnt piece of paper?
Being burned cause hit point damage, so repairing it should be well within the spell intended effects in Pathfinder (the 3.5 version limited it to repair breaks in an item, not other forms of damage). But burning documents is a staple in fiction that requires work on recovering the information. Beating that with a simple cantrip seems cheap.

Similarly, with how common are ancient libraries whose books have been damaged by age we find in printed adventures (and, at least for me, in those we write) the idea of recovering everything with the use of a cantrip and time change completely the value of that kind of scenery, from scenery to a gold resource.

IMO mending makes functional repairs only. This is great for things like weapons and armor. Not so much for art pieces and books. So, it will fix torn and even eatten pages but it doesn't restore the writing on it. So the entire page or bits of the page are now blank. Same with a piece of art it will mend the canvas but the paint in the area is distorted and/or gone depending on the way the painting was damaged.

This way it keeps the mending spell useful, without it being a cure-all.


ThunderZerker wrote:
Wow, thank you so much for this new info, and for the fast reply!

You're welcome! :)

Lemartes wrote:
I suppose that makes sense as the attacker beat the opponents CMD. However, that could be super nasty. Have very big monster with an open space behind it that is surrounded by its henchmen. Then with its super reach it grapples a pc far away and then dumps them in that square.

yeah, IMO it boils down to how "smart" you want the monster to be. If it's just an animal (like the one I linked above) it's unlikely to use advanced tactics like that unless it's been trained to do so. However, if it's a Naga that's taken the feat final embrace I think such a tactic is completely legit.


By RAW there is nothing preventing a wizard of any type from selecting the Arcane Discovery Opposition Research. However, just because you can pick it, it doesn't mean it does anything for you. For example, a generalist wizard could take it, but since they don't have any opposition schools it doesn't do anything for them. In the same way a Thassilonian Specialist doesn't have any opposition schools. They have Prohibited Schools, which might be similar but they aren't the same thing.

That being said, I would work with your DM to see if instead of it making a single opposition school a normal school, it turns a prohibited school into an opposition school.

IMO it doesn't really fit with the flavor of the class.

Thassilonian Magic wrote:
Focusing their research on the discovery that each school of magic was opposed by two specific opposition schools, the runelords developed methods of further enhancing their mastery over their chosen arcane specialties. Essentially, they defined these seven schools as much by what they couldn’t do as by what they could. By excising “impurities” introduced by fixed oppositional schools, they traded arcane versatility for greater strength in their chosen fields.

But if it makes sense to you and your DM then that's all that really matters for purposes of the game you're playing.

When it comes to specializing in a subschool. If there is precedent of being able to do this (as with the aforementioned NPC), then it's probably fine. Examples IMO are strong evidence for what's allowed.

edit: Trying to get an official ruling on anything now that PF2 is out is probably about as effective as shouting into the wind. As piazo's efforts are much more focused on the new system. Your best chance at a semi-official answer is to ask James Jacobs in this mega thread. It should be noted that while he is the creative director for pathfinder, all he'll tell you is how he would handle it in his own personal game. Which may or may not align with the actual rules.


Mark Hoover 330 wrote:
Irori's holy symbol is a blue hand. Step 1, take Improved Unarmed Strike; Step 2, get some blue paint...

I had fun with irori's symbol with one of my characters. He was a cleric of asmodeous and so he had a giant six fingered blue hand painted on his shield. You know, it had 1 thumb and 5 others, with the one in the middle being a big longer than the others....


Pathfinder is typically permissive in its wording. Meaning you can't do something unless it tells you you can. However, when it tells you that you can do something, you can do so without limitation within the boundaries given.

The rules I quoted above don't state that anything special happens if a creature is adjacent to you. So, therefore nothing special happens, you both gain the grappled condition and then the grapple proceeds as normal, without either creature changing location.

The rules do however state that if a creature is not adjacent to you then the creature being grappled gets moved to an open adjacent space. It does not define that any particular square must be chosen. This is different from say the charge action which states that you must end up in a specific square at the end of your charge.

Charge wrote:
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.

So, when it comes to grappling any adjacent square may be chosen so long as it is open. Also, since it doesn't state which creature picks the square it must be the creature initiating the action. The same way other abilities work (the creature using/performing the ability/action makes the relevant decisions) since it is not stated otherwise.

As for the constrict damage. That comes from this FAQ.


Was trying to figure out why this was so much more powerful than I remember it being. Looking at the FAQ is seems my APG is a 1st printing which had the "weak" version of the talent. Which is probably why I never gave it a second glance.

The FAQ pretty much states.

RAW: It stacks with it's self and applies to everyone
RAI: It does not stack with its self and it only applies to the enemy hit.

Seems pretty straight forward to me.


If the creature they are attacking is not currently adjacent to them, then yes. The attacker may chose any adjacent open space they wish to place them in.

If the creature they are attacking is already adjacent to them then they do not get to move them for free. When the attacking creature makes a grapple check on the following rounds it could choose to move the creature instead of doing damage.

Grapple: Move wrote:
You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.

Of course the creature will still take constrict damage as specified above.


Reksew_Trebla wrote:
LordKailas wrote:
Where is is stated a character can trade their two traits for a bonus feat?

Ugh. If that isn’t the case, then I blame d20pfsrd.com. I got that rule from there like 3 years ago. I remember reading it there, because the players, myself included, in my first group, were completely new to Pathfinder, and needed help making our characters, and the GM neglected to mention traits. I remember being pissed when I read that not only are players supposed to get two traits, but that you could also trade them out for a bonus feat.

So if that isn’t the case, again, I blame d20pfsrd.com.

Ah, I see.

Traits were something that were introduced in the Advanced Player's Guide and are not "a given".

Traits wrote:
When you create your character for a campaign, ask your GM how many traits you can select. In most cases, a new PC should gain two traits, effectively gaining what amounts to a bonus feat at character creation. Some GMs may wish to adjust this number somewhat, depending upon their style of play; you may only be able to pick one trait, or your GM might allow three or more. Even if your GM normally doesn’t allow bonus traits, you might still be able to pick up some with the Additional Traits feat.

It's possible to miss-read the above and interpret it as meaning you can trade two traits to get 1 feat. It's not helped that the feat Additional traits gives you 2 traits meaning it is possible to trade a feat for 2 traits.

I was honestly asking where you had seen it because I could easily believe such a rule existed and had simply not seen it.

In most games I've played since traits came out (I remember going to my DM and asking if I could use this new thing called traits for my existing character) the norm seems to be that everyone gets 2 traits and can gain a 3rd trait if they take a drawback (These were introduced in the Ultimate Campaign Guide). If we are playing an AP then 1 of those two traits must be one of the campaign traits that goes with the AP. It's quite possible that your DM didn't know about traits because they had only read the CRB and probably not something called "The advanced players guide" for a game where everyone was just starting out.


wyld wrote:

.

reviving an old message here X-D

couldn't find quickly rules for how easy / hard to contact with poison when handling a weapon that has poison applied.

interested in:
- chance of contact (i.e. % roll?)
- save (same as poison, would be best guess)

i was told only a measly 5% of contact it (e.g. a pc inadvertently picks up an assassin's blade and it makes contact on herself or an ally).

i was thinking pc would easily contact poison if not aware -- as pc grabs that cool weapon after dispatching foe.

but it ended up having only 5% of contact, and fort dc 12 (sad rofl) -- poison use sucks on a average adventure then / element of surprise.

is there actual rules written somewhere, or is so not worth it that they didn't write anything for it?

thx

The issue with poisons is that they are typically prohibatively expensive for what they do. You can find the rules to poisons here and here. It's the same information on both sites. I find D20 better organized, but I provided the nethys link because it's an "official source".

Anyway, there is a 5% static chance that you poison yourself when you are attempting to apply poison to a weapon. Poison Use negates that chance. This is the only thing poison use does. You also poison yourself when you roll a nat 1 on an attack roll with a poisoned weapon. Poison use does nothing to stop this, but my guess is most DMs house rule that it does.

Otherwise, unless it's an actual trap, you do no risk poisoning yourself just picking the weapon up. The same way you don't risk cutting yourself when you pick up a weapon that's sharp. This makes sense because usually it's the pointy end that's poisoned and most people don't pick weapons up by the pointy end. How often do you cut yourself from just picking up a cooking knife?

The only way a character can make regular use of poison is if they can have something that is cheap and scales with level. In addition to the methods mentioned by Ryan Freire. The serpentine bloodline which can be picked up by sorcerers or anyone taking eldritch heritage, provides a poison attack that scales with level. Unfortunately, while it's free you only get so many per day.

Edit: Then, there's the problem that there are large groups of monsters that are just flat immune to poison. Meaning even after spending effort on abilities to make your poison worthwhile, it will do nothing when fighting certain enemies. Enemies that are commonly encountered in most games at all levels.


Where is is stated a character can trade their two traits for a bonus feat?


constriction is an ability that triggers with grapple checks.

Constrict wrote:
A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage). The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry and is typically equal to the amount of damage caused by the creature’s melee attack.

Grapple states the following:

Grapple wrote:
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options.... If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition. If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails).

So, grappling a creature causes that creature to be adjacent to you if they weren't initially. So, your huge serpent that has reach will, as part of the successful grapple, relocate the target so that they are in a square next to them. After that unless the creature that initiated the grapple moves the target that's where they stay until they're able to break free.

On a side note, most creatures that have constrict also have grab.

Grab wrote:
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability.

So, a massive constrictor can. Attack an enemy with a bite, if it hits it gets a free grapple check. If that grapple check is successful they then pull the enemy next to them and immediately deal constrict damage.


I wasn't able to find much that was monk specfic but I was able to put together the following build. It lets you do out of combat healing using healer's hands and additional in combat healing via some additional healing abilities such as lay on hands, a pseudo lay on hands and channel energy. Sadly the last ability doesn't come online until 17th level though.

Ki Healer

Spoiler:

Key concepts: A monk based healer
Alignment: Lawful Good
Traits: Battlefield Surgeon or Scarred by War and Blessed Touch
Race: Human
Racial Traits: Focused Study
Class: Monk(X)
Archetype(s): Disciple of Wholeness or Monk of the Healing Hand
Suggested Domains: Medicine, Healing, Community
Key Feats: Healer's Hands (1st), Signature Skill[Heal](5th), Believer’s Boon(7th), Believer’s Hands(9th),
Eldritch Heritage[Solar] (11th), Improved Eldritch Heritage[Cleansing Flame](13th),
Greater Eldritch Heritage [Healing Fire] (17th)
Bonus Feats: Skill Focus [Heal] (1st), Skill Focus [Perception](8th), Skill Focus [Any](16th)
Suggested Feats: Incredible Healer, Curative Mastery, Restoration Mastery


I have a rogue build that's a healer. Most of the things from it I'm sure work with a monk.

Traits: Precise Treatment and (Battlefield Surgeon or Scarred by War) and/or Blessed Touch

Feats: Healer's Hands (1st), Incredible Healer(5th), Curative Mastery (7th)

Basically Healer’s Hands + Signature Skill (Heal) makes any character good at out of combat healing.


I couldn't find anything. A cursory search for it just turned up the same set of dead links and a phishing site that looks like a forum where:
--------------------------------------------------------------
Person 1 asks about it

Person 2 provides a link to a paywall site

Person 1 complains that it requires a credit card

Person 3 says its fine that the credit card is just to make sure you're not a bot.

Person 4 thanking everyone because the link was exactly what they needed.
--------------------------------------------------------------

what tipped me off is when I started seeing the same result for different guides where everything was exactly the same except the name of the guide in question.


RAWmonger wrote:

Someone call the Church of Pharasma, there's some unholy works going on in this thread....

CAN ANYONE LIST ANY SQ's THAT APPLY HERE

I'm having trouble finding SQ's that improve melee/ranged attacks that aren't already special attacks that get removed...

I don't know if I can list all of them, but I can provide an example so that you know the type of thing to look for.

A skeleton T-Rex keeps it's Powerful Bite(ex) ability. Because it is an extraordinary ability that improves its melee attacks.


Diego Rossi wrote:
What I mean is that it is one thing when the guy identifying it speak a few words, why different when it gives a complete description of a complex spell in 6 seconds while fighting.

Certainly, it's the DM's call of how much information can be conveyed as a free action.

I don't remember if it was a houserule or something someone found but I remember at one point, in order to cut down on in combat stategizing, we played it where a character could only say so many words as a free action (I want to say it was 6). If you wanted to say more than that you either had to wait for the following round or spend a move action.

Unfortunately, how complex a spell is (in terms of describing it) isn't necessarily related to how high level it is.

The 9th level spell Crushing hand is pretty self explanatory. "Summons a hand that crushes things". Where as the 2nd level spell Curse Terrian, Lesser. Can't even be properly understood by a player trying to cast the spell (much less a character identifying it) without following multiple references and looking at several different sections of rules text. Even once you know what it does at best it'll take you a few sentences to explain it to someone else in a way that's meaningful. Especially, if you don't want them to get it confused with the 9th level spell Cursed Earth, which is quite different.

So, sure I agree. The DM is well within their right to limit how much information can be conveyed before it starts costing an action. This should be true of knowledge in general regardless if it's gained from a spellcraft check, a knowledge check or even just a planned course of action.


Well, on the pathfinder side you could look at warrior poet on the D20 modern side you'd probably want some combination of Fast Hero and either Smart Hero (for exploit weakness) or Strong Hero (for melee smash) until you qualify for Soldier. Negotiator or Bodyguard could also work well though.


What type of character do you want to play?

What D20 modern classes can you use?
Just the basic classes or are you allowed to take Advanced and Prestige classes assuming you meet the pre-reqs?
Since the basic classes cap out at 10th level you'll need to consider which two out of the six you want to take.

Also, you said divine magic was out (so I assume the Acolyte advanced class isn't an option), but what about the d20 modern psionic classes?

(sorry, I love D20 modern but none of the people I play tabletop rpgs with like it)


Letric wrote:

I'm curious about this situation.

Party Wizard identifies the spell being cast as "Bless".

Does an Oracle know every single spell on her spell list?

So, if the Wizard identifies the spell and just tells me "it's Bless", do I know the effects as long as it's on my spell list?

How can spellcasters tell this information in combat if one of them didn't identify the spell?

I think it really depends on your table. I assume that when you correctly identify a spell then you know what the spell does. That doesn't mean you know what the creature casting the spell calls it.

In games that I've played it's usually something along these lines.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
GM: the BBEG casts a spell, anyone who wants to can make a spellcraft check to identify it.

<players roll and only 1 player makes the DC>

GM: The BBEG just cast Hel'jibub's Windfire. You can check the details if you want in the PHB.

Player: Ok cool! That spell does fire damage to anyone it doesn't charm.

GM: Yep, that's the one. Do you announce this information to the rest of your party?

Player: Yeah I do.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

At this point since the player took the time to announce what was happening, the other players/characters also know what the spell does. It doesn't matter if this spell does or doesn't exist on anyone's spell list nor have I ever seen a DM require a knowledge check for another player to know what spell is being described. IMO forcing such a check seems punitive unless the character is intentionally being cryptic with their description. Even then by RAW it should be a bluff check since that's the skill used to pass secret messages.


I agree with RAWmonger as far as the rules go. I disagree that it's automatically an "ill-suited mount". I think it's only ill-suited if the non-undead version would be ill-suited. What is and isn't ill-suited is left completely up to the DM's interpretation though because we are not given a definition or even guide of what ill-suited means.

As for having a saddle. I think it's fair to require an exotic saddle for an undead mount for the reasons RAWmonger specified. But I see no reason why you couldn't have an exotic saddle for it. Exotic saddles cover a massive range of creatures and I don't see why one couldn't be created for an undead mount. Alternatively, if you're making say a skeleton horse. I could see a normal saddle working so long as it's on the horse at the time of animation. I mean the thing already breaks the laws of physics by walking around without muscles and ligaments. I see no reason why the magic couldn't also apply to the saddle allowing it to sit correctly "because magic".

For simplicity I would just use the normal ride rules for the undead mount. It's just that thematically instead of applying pressure to leave your hands free it's all about precise verbal commands and balance. You would have to familiarize yourself with how it responds to various commands same as you would any creature type you've never ridden before. I mean, riding a gryphon is different from riding a horse. Both of which are likely quite different from riding a giant squid. In each case you'll need to spend a little bit of time "figuring out the creature" even if it's well trained and you are an experienced rider (iow multiple ranks in the ride skill).

As for the mount not being considered combat trained. I think this depends entirely if the creature was combat trained prior to becoming undead on the basis that skeletons keep abilities they possessed in life that improve their combat prowess. Assuming that it's even applicable in the first place. Since, if not being combat trained means the mount tries to bolt during combat. Well, as pointed out earlier this doesn't make sense for a creature that if left to it's own devices would calmly stand there doing nothing while a battle rages around it (so long as nothing was actively trying to harm it).

Of course coming into town with undead under your control (regardless if you're riding said undead or not) depends on the town and your character's reputation. Most towns that don't know you will assume that you're up to no good and will probably want you to leave ASAP assuming you made it past the front gates to begin with (and weren't simply shot on sight).


Quixote wrote:
I think the biggest issue is recognizing when a feat outlines something that everyone should just...be able to do.

This is how I feel about the feat strike back.

More than once I've had players ask me if they can do what this feat lets them do and I think my answer was always "ok, no problem", because it seemed like a reasonable thing for the character to be able to do (when the monster in question is using natural attacks). The first time I saw this feat my immediate response was "WTF? that's stupid! It shouldn't cost you a feat to do that." and then I saw it's pre-reqs... "WTF!!!? that's REALLY stupid"

I don't have a problem with one feat being required to unlock another feat. But they should synergize. If I want to be able to do the thing that Feat C lets me do then Feats B and A (Feat C's pre-reqs) should reasonably also be things that I want to do. Combat Expertise is fine as it is, the problem is that it is required to do umptine million other things that are completely un-related to raising your AC.

I presently have a character who uses combat expertise all the time, but only because I ran across this trait that makes its use at low levels completely free.


Utii wrote:

Where is that listed

would like some quotes

to start with you're responding to a thread that is 2 years old. It's not listed because the only things that get listed are abilities that are extraordinary, supernatural or spell like. We know humans have normal sight and if you look at the entry for humans it doesn't list any sort of vision abilities.

as for a quote. here's one

blahpers wrote:
Regular sight is neither supernatural nor extraordinary.


Mazikeen wrote:

Unfortunately, they went with a thrush familiar already (and are planning on upgrading with the improved familiar at 7) so the peripat won't work, but it's a good to keep in mind.

Ah, yeah I missed the last line about not being able to use it if you already have a familiar.

Mazikeen wrote:
The spells are great! Thanks

heh, I'm glad to help.

I did think of another one it's fairly pricey for what it does but it would stack with everything else that's been mentioned. An Altar of Shelyn grants a +2 circumstance bonus for 24 hours. Of course the user has to actually worship Shelyn which may or may not be an issue.

If you can convince your DM that you're "Dance Fighting" then you could use a Sugar Glass Bottle for another +2 circumstance bonus.


The poison use class feature doesn't protect you from a toxic censure while it's lit, regardless if you or someone else is carrying it.

The only thing poison use does is prevent the 5% chance that exists to poison yourself when attempting to apply poison to something.

Poison wrote:
Applying poison to a weapon or single piece of ammunition is a standard action. Whenever you apply or ready a poison for use, there is a 5% chance that you expose yourself to the poison and must save against the poison as normal. This does not consume the dose of poison. Whenever you attack with a poisoned weapon, if the attack roll results in a natural 1, you expose yourself to the poison. This poison is consumed when the weapon strikes a creature or is touched by the wielder. If you have the poison use class feature (such as from the assassin prestige class or the alchemist base class), you do not risk accidentally poisoning yourself when applying poison.

Note that having the Poison Use class feature technically doesn't even stop you from poisoning yourself if you roll a 1 on an attack roll (though I imagine many DMs run it this way).


Ragnorick wrote:
I was listening to a podcast the other day and they mentioned that in Pathfinder First Edition if you cast a cure spell on a bleeding or dying character that it brings them to consciousness regardless of the amount they were negative. Was this a house rule or is it in one of the rulebooks somewhere?

They were probably thinking of the spell Stablize and thinking it works the same way as smelling salts which does exactly as you're describing

There is also the Specialized Healer's satchel which will bring someone to zero hp (no matter how negative they were) which would probably have the side effect of also making them conscious.

Healer's Satchel wrote:
First Aid: The specialized healer’s satchel contains self-binding tourniquets, enchanted smelling salts, and other magical tools to help a dying patient recover. The wielder can expend two uses of the specialized healer’s satchel when performing first aid to heal a character at negative hit points to 0 hit points with a successful DC 20 Heal check.


Melkiador wrote:
The Faerun quote is interesting. The OGL version only says, “Natural Armor, Con 13”, so I assume that’s where Paizo got it.

yeah, I found the pathfinder wording on the hyperlink d20srd but there wasn't a reference to where it came from so I dug around further until I found a reference to the feat coming from races of ferun.

Improved natural armor doesn't seem to be part of the original OGL System Reference Documentation

While it seems that races of faerun was the original printing of the feat, prior to pathfinder it was reprinted in Monster Manual III and the 3.5 Monster Manual. Wotc not paizo seems to be the source of the poor editing. As in these sources it lists the pre-requisites as Natural armor and con 13.

This is another case of pathfinder just copying and pasting something from an earlier source.


GotAFarmYet? wrote:
No I just found many contradictory entries. It all came down to poor editing and a changing rule system a few times

Poor editing I'll agree with.

I've never considered natural armor to be a "monster trait" because barkskin and the associated amulet of natural armor have been around since the 3.0 edition of the D&D player's handbook. These are the things that introduced me to the idea of natural armor and its always been a player option. In earlier editions barkskin just gave armor and the armor it gave you didn't stack with other kinds of armor (it was basically a scaling version of mage armor).

The only inconsistency I see is the improved natural armor feat and so I did some research. This feat only fails to make sense because pathfinder changed it's pre-reqs. into something that is otherwise inconsistent with the way natural armor works. The pre-pathfinder version of the feat is as follows.

Races of Faerûn wrote:

Improved Natural Armor

[General]
Your skin is even tougher than that of most of your kind.
Prerequisite: Racially granted natural armor.
Benefit: Your racially granted natural armor bonus increases by +1.
Special: A character can gain this feat multiple times. Each
time the character gains this feat, his natural armor improves by
an additional +1.

The book this feat comes out if was a splatbook that added a bunch of new options for PC races. So, it was absolutely intended for players to take.

However, in this case the question is "Does your race grant you natural armor?" if the answer is yes then you can take the feat, otherwise you can't. It doesn't matter if you're getting natural armor from another source (such as a class or feat). In fact it doesn't even matter if your natural armor is +0 or +10, all that matters is if you get natural armor from your race. The pathfinder version of the feat tries to be less restrictive, but because of the way it was edited, it makes it more widely available then was intended.


Some additional items

Lozenge of the songbird +2 alchemical
Harmonizing armor enchant +5 competence
Dirgesinger’s Choir +4 circumstance
Periapt of Temporary Familiar (butterfly) +3 untyped

and spells

Tap Inner Beauty +2 insight
Song Bird +3 untyped


GotAFarmYet? wrote:

Thanks Melkiador,

At least things make sense now.

Personally to resolve the conflict is that as a spell or spell based Item under the laws of magic its works. There is not Natural Armor +0 outside of magic. As for the Classes that allow it you don't have to have natural armor if the class features add it, as you pay for it in the build of the character. I also would not allow the feat to go to anyone out side of monsters that have a Natural Armor.

You seem to be distinguishing things in a way that Pathfinder does not. It doesn't matter if an enhancement is magic based or not it gets treated the same way. This is why the enhancement bonus from masterwork doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus for being a magic weapon. They are treated the same.

A bonus to natural armor is the same way it doesn't matter if it's from magic or not, it either applies or it doesn't.

Improved natural armor is worse then dodge so it doesn't bother me at all that by raw anyone can take it.


Another example is the Homunculus

This creature does not have any natural armor and yet it can be modified in the following way.

Homunculus wrote:
Toughened Hide: By adding diamond dust and cold iron to the homunculus, a crafter can increase its natural armor bonus to AC by 1, 2, or 3. Price: +1,000 gp (+1), +4,000 gp (+2), or +9,000 gp (+3).

This only works if we treat it's natural armor as being 0 instead of -

Otherwise we end up spending 9k gold for something that has no effect on the creature.


Mark Hoover 330 wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
The problem with natural attacks is that they do not have iterative attacks. So the best way around that is to increase your number of natural attacks. Items that help with this are the Helm of the Mammoth lord, to give you a gore attack, a ring of rat fangs, to obtain a bite, or a cloak of the manta ray to give you a tail slap (in water only).
Wait, what? So if my wolf Animal Companion has only a Bite attack and hits BAB +6, in a Full Attack he only still gets one attack, no iteratives?

yes and no.

Because the wolf is an animal companion it gains the following ability

Multi-attack wrote:
An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a –5 penalty.

If your wolf had more than just a bite attack then it would not get the additional attack instead gaining the multi-attack feat which does very little if your animal companion has 3+ attacks that are all primary attacks (eg. a big cat animal companion).

It does not otherwise get iterative attacks with it's natural weapons. If your wolf were to have the feat Improved Unarmed Strike. It would be able to make iterative attacks using it's unarmed strikes. It could also attack twice with it's bite attack at a -5 and -10 respectively.


Keep in mind that not all exotic weapons are associated with a race and you're spending your bonus feat on weapon proficiency. Instead of using it using it to get a jump start on a feat chain.

The only time I've taken exotic weapon proficiency with a character is because the weapon I want them to use isn't a proficiency granted by the character class and there's not an equivalent weapon I can use instead.

IMO the gnome trait Master Tinker is far cheesier as it effectively gives you proficiency with all weapons in the game. You just have to craft the weapon yourself.


marcryser wrote:
Four moons is just silly.

That explains why Galileo thought Jupiter was silly.


I swear I remember seeing a magic item that let you so this. It was like a ring or something that was called "of Brachiation".

But I've been unable to locate it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

If you work with your DM you should be able to fill all of them. I always describe my characters the way I want them to look and as long as it's generally in line with what my character is wearing no one has ever had an issue.

The last gnome I played had a permanent continual flame spell cast on her head that she could change the color of using prestidigitation. By RAW that's not how any of that works but it's what I wanted and it didn't provide any mechanical advantage (over having a hat with continual flame on it) and so my DM allowed it. My back up plan if they didn't allow it was to cast it on the headband my character was wearing. Which from a mechanics standpoint did the same thing but wasn't as appealing visually.

So, as long as you aren't trying to gain a mechanical advantage from your gear being non-standard I don't see why any DM would have an issue with it.

If it ever starts to become unbelievable enchanting your armor with glammer, grabbing a set of sleeves or even just getting a hat of disguise automatically solves any and all aesthetics as they specifically let your clothes (and in the case of the hat even your whole character) look however you want them to look.

The armor enchant is essentially slotless and the hat and sleeves only occupy a single slot. So in the worst case scenario you only have to give up a single item slot and that's only if your DM is being difficult.


The way I read it you just have to have one left over. You've already spent a point and an AoO to activate the ability. Seems kind of excessive to force you to spend another resource for the final effect.

I've never played a character with panache based abilities though, so I could be wrong on this.


Nikkok wrote:

Let's suppose you are riding a very fast mount. Naturally fast creature, like a cat, or buffed with something like Cheetah's sprint. The speed of the mount allows it to make very long and very high jumps, because it gains enormous Acrobatics bonuses on running jump checks.

The problem is, that you will not be able to stay on it's back. As the Ride skills says, when you make the mount jump, you either make an Acrobatics check for the mount, or the Ride check yourself, whichever is lower, the DC is equal to the jump DC.
A usual +5 bonus from the saddle isn't gonna help. Is there any special equipment to work with this, and if you would design something yourself, how would you balance it?
I thought about some kind of saddle, that takes about a minute to strap in, but allows you to autopass all checks to stay mounted. Of course, it prohibits you from dismounting (maybe, a full-round action to unstrap) and creates a danger of mount falling on top of you, if it is falling prone.

What do you think?

P.S. This should also be usable for riding something like a giant spider, crawling on the seiling. Or staying on the flying mount without appropriate Ride skill.

I've read the description multiple times and I don't think the check works the way you think it does.

Ride wrote:
Leap: You can get your mount to leap obstacles as part of its movement. If the Ride check to make the leap succeeds, make a check using your Ride modifier or the mount’s jump modifier, whichever is lower, to see how far the creature can jump. If you fail your Ride check, you fall off the mount when it leaps and take the appropriate falling damage (at least 1d6 points). This usage does not take an action but is part of the mount’s movement.

So, there are two checks involved here

Check #1 is to get the mount to leap, the dc for this is always 15. Failing this check causes you to fall off of the mount.

Check #2 is to see how far your mount jumps. For this check you compare your mount's jump modifier against your ride modifier. Which ever of these is lower is then used to determine how far you're able to get your mount to leap.

So, as long as you can beat a dc 15 you'll never fall off of your mount. However, it is true that because you're on the mount's back it will be limited as to how far it can jump.

So, if it's jump modifier is +30 but your ride modifier is only +14, then you are forced to roll 1d20+14 to see how far it can jump.

Conceivably if you're on the back of a mount that's capable of walking on the ceiling, the exotic saddle for said mount should provide straps you can brace yourself against to stay on the thing while its upside down.

there are items like the Equestrian Belt, that might prevent you from falling off (it's a DM's call though since I believe it's referencing the "stay in saddle activity" not staying in the saddle in general).

But basically anything that boosts your ride skill will help increase your mount's jumping distance when it comes to very fast mounts.


Reksew_Trebla wrote:

I was looking for a good choice to use for a mount for one, since for some reason, when Paizo converted their own monster from D&D 3.5 Pathfinder to Pathfinder 1e, they left out some things, like its ability to create an unique undead mount tied to it.

So now, you just have to find something else that can squeeze into the allotted exp total of the encounter, and hope nothing gets broken from this combo.

In its description, it says it prefers undead or cold resistant mounts, yet it has no way of controlling an undead mount, which almost always would be unintelligent and thus attack the Cold Rider no matter how much it may overpower the undead creature.

It would be acceptable if it was also undead, but it isn’t, as it is a fey. So undead mounts will try to attack the Cold Rider as it is riding them.

Am I missing something here?

There are options, though I agree the cold rider doesn't have anything built in that hints at those options.

To start with, there are undead creatures that could serve as mounts that are not mindless. Since they have an int of 2 or less the cold rider can use handle animal on them

Handle Animal wrote:
Low Intelligence Non-Animals You can use this skill on a creature with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2 that is not an animal, but the DC of any such check increases by 5. Such creatures have the same limit on tricks known as animals do.

Ghoul, Wolf(Dire)

Mummified Horse

Plagued Horse

Juju Zombie Horse

Weirdly, skeletal horses don't seem to be an option because as you've pointed out skeletons are mindless and skeletal champion can only be applied to a creature with an int score of 3 or higher. Which means that you can't use handle animal on anything you could turn into a skeletal champion.

I found other undead with sufficiently low int scores (eg. giant crawling hand) but all of them were too small to serve as a mount for the medium sized cold rider.

If you really want to use a mindless zombie or skeleton as a mount there is the Death's Head Talisman. It allows the bearer to control undead tied to it at it's creation.

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