So I know when the shifter first came out it really didn't work too well. Just curious if it has been "fixed" or is the druid still a lot better (minus the full caster.) Or any other class that has usually been passed over worth a second look?
Dang I'm batting 0
The Adaptive Shifter archetype is generally considered "the fix". Still weak as it can be, but you'll at least have some fun options when fighting.
Honestly, only Adaptive Shifter is a functioning class where you could consider staying until 20. There's three other noteworthy archetypes, but all of them are only useful as dips.
Rageshaper: get two Slam natural attacks at lv 1.
Style Shifter: get a style feat without meeting the prerequisites.
Weretouched Shifter: wait until level 4, then bail out of the class with your Hybdrid Form getting five primaries and Pounce (while allowing you to wear armor/activate magic items/wield weapons).
Classes that don't seem to get much traction at my table are: Cavalier, Wizard, Gunslinger, and Summoner. I usually run games where mounted combat is inappropriate, Arcanists are just easier than Wizards and occupy the same thematic space, and the latter two I don't allow (except for the bolt ace).
People have *talked* about Shifters they wanted to try but I have not seen one yet.
Personally I always thought the Summoner kinda missed the point...they should be summoning more not relying on just one big bad.
Agree gunslinger just doesnt work for me.
I really like the occultist, but it just cant seem to get above soso..sadly in PFS they took out trapping of the warrior. Kinetist I just feel like they made it too complicated without much of a payout.
I really want to like a shaman..I've really tried...but it just doesn't come out right. Which sucks because it has potential.
I really like my swashbuckler...but then he only took one level and went the rest in investigator... I play him as a swashbuckler with lots of toys :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don’t see much interest in chained summoner.
Chained Summoner is broken, no one should use it. Even someone just picking cutesy options can overtake two individual PCs in terms of power.
This question is very subjective and will depend from playgroup to playgroup.
There are however certain things that make me reconsider using classes:
Antipaladin: Insinuator archetype, combined with "skill-up" feats like Cunning or Peerless Courtier breathed new life to the class for me. Now, you can have more latitude in alignment and skills to play around.
Samurai: Brawling Blademaster and Warrior Poet take a mishmashy set of abilities and turn it into a really fun alternative. Warrior Poet dropping Spring Attack tactical nukes is pretty hilarious. Brawling Blademaster does the TWF brawler really well.
Rogue: The Twist Away feat singlehandedly lifs this class up from the gutter. So good.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ones I personally don't really care about
Gunslinger: Depends on an ill thought out sub-system.
Occult Classes (Bar Kinetist which is very under powered and under supported): Struggle to distingush themselves from existing options while carrying baggage you need to learn (how occult casting differs ect.)
Cavalier: Can't use its main abilities most of the time, even if small with a medium mount (Rocinante isn't going to fancy parties or helping in an inn fight). Archetypes that don't use mount are underwhelming or bail out of the class early (Battle Herald)
Hybrid classes that aren't Bloodrager, Slayer, Skald or Warpriest: Struggle to find a niche and some (Swashbuckler) are just awful. Slayer is more of an Unchained Fighter or spellless Ranger than a Rogue/Ranger hybrid, but it's functional for that.
Shifter: As mentionedGoing by this character survey the general least played (less than 100 players) are
Summoner: I guess people don't want to manage the Eidolon?
Hunter: Same, but animal companion.
Antipaladin: If we count this as its own class the inability to fit in 99% of games is obvious.
Ninja: Never got unchained, making it inferior to an Unchained Rogue
Samurai: Cavalier but less support.
Shaman, Bard, Slayer: Struggles to find a niche.
All Occult classes: As above but more rules to learn for less effect.
(The survey predates Shifter)
These are mostly dated views. There are options to improve on most of these.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I never quite understood why people think learning psychic casting involves learning "a lot of new rules." Learning a new class can involve a lot of new rules, but you can get psychic casting on sorcerers and investigators and other more familiar classes.
Like there's literally only three rules:
- No Somatic components (so can cast without ASF, don't need hands free) but can't cast while under fear or harmful emotion effect.
- No verbal components (so silence is NBD) but you take a -10 on concentration checks, unless you spend a move action.
- Expensive material components can be anything of equivalent value, can eschew non-expensive material components.
Honestly, without the legacy of bat guano pouches, psychic casting is honestly kind of simpler than the normal kind.
@doomman47: yeah pretty sure it is banned.. especially in pfs, there are so many things banned it gets annoying quick. Especially when you can take a arcanist with the occultist archetype to get the min long summons.
@possiblecabbage: To me there are individual hassles to psychic casting. The kinetist with burn. Occutist micro managing his points on each item and the fact you can't really adventure with a medium because what if a place isn't there and they can't go champion, but they are built around that.
@secret wizard: These days I'm stuck in pfs so shifting groups, for that reason I like to play generalists I try to take something a tad different. I'll have to look at that samurai.
|
I haven't been seeing too many gunslingers in my games lately. I've literally never seen a shifter played before, and some of the occult classes besides the kineticist seem pretty rarely used.
Other than that I'd say most of the classes are pretty commonly used. I'm running two different groups right now, one has a Skald, an Unchained Summoner,an Investigator, an Unchained Monk, and a Druid. The other has a Samurai, a Ninja, a Brawler, and a Zen Archer.
And my previous campaign had a Kineticist, Gunslinger (first one in a while), Hunter, Swashbuckler, and an Arcanist.
Lotta variance there. I'm always happy when I see players playing different things a lot.
Well, it's not in a Golarion product, making it the least known class by far, its name make it sound way more niche than it is, and it's a weird chassis, with many ribbons for some slow scaling stuff. And AoN doesn't have it. It's not entirely terribad, but not that good either. Faster foci gain would help it a lot, for example.
As for the question : few classes are really irredeemably "bad".
Shifter was half-baked when it came out, it's better now. Not top tier, maybe not even mid-tier, but mostly viable.
Summoner has always caused issues, in both iterations, a good part of which are less mechanics and more perception/playstyle. It's still not quite there either.
Unchained saved the rogue and helped the basic monk.
Gunslinger vexes some, and always will, because guns.
Fighters are a lot more than they were ten years ago.
...
All in all, we have 41 classes and 4 unchained remakes, hundreds of archetypes (at least) : there should be a way to play pretty much anything. It's just that sometimes you need that weird archetype/feat tax/whatever. And not everyone will end up game-breakingly powerful.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Summoner kinda missed the point...they should be summoning more not relying on just one big bad.
That's not a failure in the class, it's a failure in the players using the Summoner like just another Animal Companion class, and forgetting their Summon Monster SLA abilities exist. I've seen far too many Summoners lose their Eidolon in battle and basically give up because they feel like their entire character died.
Most powerful PFS character I ever made was an Unchained Summoner that completely ignored the fact that he had an eidolon, using it only for RP, and instead focused on buffing my SLA's. Hasting a pack of disposable augmented earth elementals is incredibly devastating.
Nobody is even going to mention Vampire Hunter? Nobody? It is that popular.Isn't that 3rd party?
Paizo licensed and written, published in a third-party tie in product.
Summoner kinda missed the point...they should be summoning more not relying on just one big bad.That's not a failure in the class, it's a failure in the players using the Summoner like just another Animal Companion class, and forgetting their Summon Monster SLA abilities exist. I've seen far too many Summoners lose their Eidolon in battle and basically give up because they feel like their entire character died.
The SLA and Eidolon routes are more or less mutually exclusive, and the Eidolon route has a lot more text so it pops out to the reader more. Also it's generally more exciting from a fluff standpoint (Gee Bill, how come your gm lets you have TWO characters?).
I think the only class I've never seen anyone have interest in, let alone actually bring to the table, is the Medium. If only Paizo had ever gotten around to releasing the Harrow Medium...
Shifter was half-baked when it came out, it's better now. Not top tier, maybe not even mid-tier, but mostly viable.
That's a misconception. The Shifter's problem was never power (at least not until high-ish levels) - vanilla Shifter straight out of UW had plenty of damage dealing potential. It's just that the class sucks to play because it breaks (even Paizo's own) class design guidelines left, right and center (and yes, it still does). I've talked about the Shifter's problems in-depth here.
Summoner has always caused issues, in both iterations, a good part of which are less mechanics and more perception/playstyle. It's still not quite there either.
The Summoner's biggest problem is not the class itself, but the large number of atrociously made martial classes that get outclassed by the Eidolon. Brawler, Cavalier, Samurai, Gunslinger, Swashbuckler, and cMonk lack selectable class features, which no class in the game should lack (see the spoiler in the above link for why that's bad). Fighter, Rogue, Cavalier, Swashbuckler, Ninja, and Samurai only have a single good save, something no pure martial class in the game should have. Rogue, Ninja, and Stalker Vigilante are even behind an Eidolon on BAB three quarters of the time because they have medium BAB, something no pure martial class in the game should have. And to add insult to injury, most of these classes also don't have an easy fix to the "can't move plus full attack" sickness that plagues the game, while Eidolon does.
Honestly, only Adaptive Shifter is a functioning class where you could consider staying until 20.
What do you gain after 9th level?
Or any other class that has usually been passed over worth a second look?
The better "Rogue replacements", i.e. Bard, Slayer, and Investigator. Think about playing a Rogue? Look at those instead! Many people think that Bard was some stand-in-the-back party supporter, Slayer was some Fighter variant, and Investigator was someone only good at intrigue stuff/sleuthing, but non of those is even remotely true!
Slayer's Studied Target and Investigator's Studied Combat/Studied Strike are much closer to the concept of "striking where it hurts the most" than the Rogue's 'Sneak Attack' which is triggered by teamwork 90% of the time. Bard and Investigator are way better at skills than Rogue, including stealth (hello Invisibility!). There are five Bard archetypes that grant Trapfinding, plus a spell, if that's wanted.I personally kinda dismissed the Investigator on the grounds that I'm not interested in a dedicated skillmonkey. When I read it, I considered all it's combat-enhancing abilities to be severely lacking (Studied Combat' due to using a move action, Studied Strike because it's once per Studied Combat and ends it, and Inspiration on attacks because it's too little for the cost). It was only this thread that made me take a closer look, and when I realized that Quick Study totally changes how the class behaves, I now really want to play one!
Honestly, only Adaptive Shifter is a functioning class where you could consider staying until 20.What do you gain after 9th level?
Plant Shape II and III, another Lasting Adaption, and going from two to three Reactive Aspects when you use the ability.
Which is a lot more rewarding than staying in the class for Minor Aspects bonuses that don't stack with your magic items, or actually getting the normal Wild Shape features the animal would give you first at level 15.
====
Your link is broken for me, btw. This one should work.
I have a level 1 swash/ 6 investigator and I have a blast with him. Big thing to me about the investigator is it's a bunch of little things that add together. Also it's really fun to have to play a character with 7 cha and 16 to diplomacy.
One class I'm debating on is a sword and shield slayer, so it's on my list :)
I have a skald atm, so I'll pass on the bard, too similar imo.
I'll have to take another look at the shifter and summoner.
Not sure if it matters but looking for something for PFS and Dark Archive. (Level 2)
I've seen someone who wanted a non-combat rogue choose to play an investigator. Even if it wasn't possible to make a combat-ready investigator it'd have a niche.
Options, huh. Warrior poet samurai and ashiftah witch (maybe with a monk dip/hex strike after L2) look interesting. I don't know the status of those with PFS legality. A mesmerist can do some weird things with archetypes and the base class isn't bad.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
At level 7 my "investigator" is at +16 to hit and 1d6+11+3(precision) with a 15-20 crit range. I wouldn't consider him the hardest hitter but reliable damage and a AC 28 he is usually helping. That isn't counting the nice skills 12+1d6+1 for all knowledge skills, 19 with UMD means he can pick up any wand and use it then of course +20 for perception and disable devices is never bad. I usually just sign him up as a generalist :)
Well, on my experience the least played are the summoner, gunslinger and antipaladin. For the same exact reason, they are all banned. Nobody went for the crappy summoner second version either, so overall, it doesnt appear much.
Honestly, most of what i see are the first classes, aka from core to hybrid, with the unchained version of all, but summoner, being picked often. Occult, vigilante and shifter dont see the light of day at all or pretty much ever.
I honestly forgot that the antipaladin was a class. I haven't seen one of those since we have a general rule of "no evil characters". Come to think of it, I haven't seen a ninja either.
|
A lot of the pure martials, in our group. Never seen a fighter, core monk or barbarian. Nor cavalier, at that, outside of a oneshot.
That might change if I get to play my Heritor Knight, though!
All of the occult classes have fans in our group - Medium hasn't seen play yet, but I've got one or two in the works.
I actually really want to play a Vampire Hunter. Lol. The whole countenanced carbuncle feat chain seems like a lot of fun. And I really liked the Vampire Hunter D anime, so it all makes sense.
I really like the feel of the occultist but I find they have a tough time hitting with little to nothing to help them. I was overjoyed to see the trapping of the warrior but they have banned it in PFS...which irritates me to this day. Every few months I check hoping they will allow it :P In fact I just posted in the forums for clarification :P
I admit I'm not much of a fan of gunslinger or antipaladin.
We've never had a cleric, Inquisitor, warpriest, or paladin.
I'm wondering if the current AP would be a good one to play a vampire hunter in... Hmm...
The shifter apparently got a few fixes, but Ultimate Wilderness hasn't gotten an errata, and we've been waiting for a while now...
Ninja, Samurai, Anti-Paladin, and Shifter are the only classes we haven't seen at our table. Ninja and Samurai due to setting restrictions, and shifter & anti-Paladin because no one wants to play one, at all.
I believe another company contracting with Paizo to write Pathfinder content for them would, strictly speaking, be second party content.
So the vampire hunter is, in all things, an exception.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Fighter is a classic example of a terrible, no-appeal class that can get really fun and interactive with the right options (AWT, AAT, Bravery feats, Skilled, Gloves of Dueling).
Cavalier sadly gets the short end of the stick with Chain Challenge being banned in PFS, but Disciple of the Pike is available, which provides a cool set of options in general in Weapon Mastery feats.
FYI: Inner Sea Magic has a vampire hunter archetype for Inquisitors.
My nephews all make Gunslingers, it's gotten to the point where I'm probably banning it in future games.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Adaptive Shifter archetype is generally considered "the fix". Still weak as it can be, but you'll at least have some fun options when fighting.
Honestly, only Adaptive Shifter is a functioning class where you could consider staying until 20. There's three other noteworthy archetypes, but all of them are only useful as dips.
Elementalist shifter works, but not as intended.
It has an ability to give a large amount of extra elemental damage, and you eventually get enough elements to get around resistances (the only thing I remember with both natural electric and acid resist is a final mythic boss). The average damage is comparable to a cavalier's challenge, but it is limitless. You also get AC bonuses that can allow you do a light armor tank.
The only problem? It doesn't actually work when you shape shift. Also, the light armor and weapon you would prefer can't fit well into spontaneous shifting. Which... means that this is a shifter archetype actively hampered by shifting. But hey- it is a rather nice elemental knight kind of thing. And you can still save the shifting for flight or earthglide.
@doomman47: yeah pretty sure it is banned.. especially in pfs, there are so many things banned it gets annoying quick. Especially when you can take a arcanist with the occultist archetype to get the min long summons.
@possiblecabbage: To me there are individual hassles to psychic casting. The kinetist with burn. Occutist micro managing his points on each item and the fact you can't really adventure with a medium because what if a place isn't there and they can't go champion, but they are built around that.
@secret wizard: These days I'm stuck in pfs so shifting groups, for that reason I like to play generalists I try to take something a tad different. I'll have to look at that samurai.
Regarding you comment to Cabbage, how is the different to any other class that comes with class features?
Burn is a new feature to get your head around, but actually not complicated at all really, it’s literally just new.
Medium relies on a co-operative DM the class itself isn’t hard.
but other than that it’s just resource management. Like a Inquisitor with Judgement and Bane and Spells, or an Alchemist with bombs and extracts.
Focus points aren’t complicated.
And those three are the hard class.
Spiritualist is very very similar to a hunter in terms of learning.
Mesmerist has nothing hard to grasp about it. And the Psychic is genuinely simpler than a Arcanist.
I honestly think people saw that book had new words like thought component and burn and it wasn’t following the legacy of psionic magic from 3.5 and just switched off to it.
We use Occult Adventures more than any other book, except for maybe the Advanced Player's Guide.
Elementalist shifter works, but not as intended.It has an ability to give a large amount of extra elemental damage, and you eventually get enough elements to get around resistances (the only thing I remember with both natural electric and acid resist is a final mythic boss).
There are an enormous number of outsiders who qualify. For the most obvious, all demons are immune to electricity and have acid resistance 10.
We use Occult Adventures more than any other book, except for maybe the Advanced Player's Guide.
Probably the same. I don't think we've had a game since OA came out that didn't have at least one occult class in it.
I mean, sure the Occultist can be a bit fiddly in binning your metacurrency, but I feel like it's less cognitive hassle than "preparing spells" past a certain level. I mean, has anybody complaining that the Occult classes being complex seen the Shaman? IMO the Shaman is probably the hardest class in the game.
There are an enormous number of outsiders who qualify. For the most obvious, all demons are immune to electricity and have acid resistance 10.
Well, at 10th level the Elementalist gets 3 elements, so that should cover everything.
I'm still not sure if the Elementalist is rewarding to play though, since I've thought about making one who uses a branch spear and combat patrol to make big AoOs... but on the other hand a kineticist can probably play this game better and they get more fun tricks.
I'm still not sure if the Elementalist is rewarding to play though, since I've thought about making one who uses a branch spear and combat patrol to make big AoOs... but on the other hand a kineticist can probably play this game better and they get more fun tricks.
Yeah, I will not disagree with that. The class is VERY threadbare for things to do from moment to moment. Compare it to ranger- even a spelless ranger- and you find it lacks things like skill bonuses or some useful pet to handle. It functions for "I will stand here right next to you, and we will whack away at eachother until one of us dies".
I think my thoughts about resist was colored since I was theory crafting for a wrath of the righteous campaign- with mythic vital strike, you can go the kineticist route of saying "blow away resist/dr with one really, really big hit". Maybe I meant immunity? ...honestly, I rarely play characters with elemental damage, so I never keep track of this things well.
Sorry about the delay. The catch with burn for me Chromantic Durgon <3 is even though burn itself isn't too bad you then get ways to reduce it or add to it...then if you arent familiar with dealing with non-lethal you need to work on that too..just seems a bit.
Medium is rough because they need to be in a location to get the spirit...in PFS that can be tough and then what if you are in a spot that lacks a place you need to get a spirit from?
Occultist isn't too bad...at first but at later levels trying to manage how many points you have among so many items and making sure you get the resonates you want..can get to be a handful. I keep going back to the occultist but the lack of things to boost accuracy (besides bane) is really bad.
I'm confused PossibleCabbage, what makes the shaman complicated? I keep trying to make one work without much luck yet, but I'm not sure what is complicated.
I keep looking at the shifter and my mind goes to the druid. :(
Sorry half awake, probably doesn't help.