Classes less used


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ekibus wrote:
the fact you can't really adventure with a medium because what if a place isn't there and they can't go champion, but they are built around that.

Not true thanks to this FAQ. Medium is still one of the most complicating classes (three spell lists, and yourc haracter can play vastly different from day to day), but unless you're in a confined space (e.g. resting in a dungeon), access to spirits should not be a problem on a regular basis.

Wonderstell wrote:
Which is a lot more rewarding than staying in the class for Minor Aspects bonuses that don't stack with your magic items, or actually getting the normal Wild Shape features the animal would give you first at level 15.

You misunderstood what I meant: I'm not saying vanilla Shifter was more (or even as) worth staying in class after somewhere between 4th and 8th level, but that Adaptive Shifter isn't worth staying in after 9th level (permanent flight), either.

I mean, seriously, what do you get for those ~six levels? A bit more elemental resistance? Wildshape forms that you never use because you can't pounce in them (unless your GM allows Green Man's vines, at which point a build with Totemic Master would be boss)? If you're not interested in Plant Shape, there's a bunch of levels where you get very little,

Wonderstell wrote:
Your link is broken for me, btw. This one should work.

Thanks. Stupid board code changed the link upon posting (not the first time that's happened to me)...

PossibleCabbage wrote:
I believe another company contracting with Paizo to write Pathfinder content for them would, strictly speaking, be second party content.

Isn't the "second party" the players & GMs?

VoodistMonk wrote:
The whole countenanced carbuncle feat chain seems like a lot of fun.

That's the renamed Possessed Hand feat chain, isn't it?


ZᴇɴN wrote:
Samurai, Cavalier, Core Rogue. The main things I never see at PFS tables.

The only reason I can fathom not to play an unchained rogue in PFS is if you're not going to spend money on Pathfinder Unchained, and you're playing somewhere that the GMs give a rat's tookus. Otherwise, it's pure upgrade, and (unlike the poor unchained monk) all the existing archetypes still work.

Cavaliers and Samurai basically have to be small dog-riders for best potential in PFS, although I did once play a human samurai TWF crit-fisher who was just a monster in combat, on or off the horse. Resolve/Resolute doubling Order of the Warrior's Honor in All Things is flat-out balls-amazing. Your fighter and me both gotta make a will-save? My guy rolls twice at +4 for his result. Your fighter drops deep neg and he's not a half-orc? Ouch. My guy is Unstoppable, immediately stabilizes, and is conscious (this is all optional, BTW). And those are core freebies at 2nd level.


ekibus wrote:
Sorry about the delay. The catch with burn for me Chromantic Durgon <3 is even though burn itself isn't too bad you then get ways to reduce it or add to it...then if you arent familiar with dealing with non-lethal you need to work on that too..just seems a bit.

You get a gather power and infusion specialisation to reduce it, neither of which are complicated in the least, especially infusion speciation. Adding to it is just using more powers for more burn, like using any other resource in the game. Use more powerful powers and it costs more.

Learning nonelethal damage I’ll grant you but that really isn’t that bad, and improves your overall game knowledge which is good.

Quote:


Medium is rough because they need to be in a location to get the spirit...in PFS that can be tough and then what if you are in a spot that lacks a place you need to get a spirit from?

There are ways around this now, but I do think the Medium is the clunkiest occult class, but still, only 1 of 6.

Quote:


Occultist isn't too bad...at first but at later levels trying to manage how many points you have among so many items and making sure you get the resonates you want..can get to be a handful. I keep going back to the occultist but the lack of things to boost accuracy (besides bane) is really bad.

I mean it’s siginifcalty less complicated than being a prepared caster. Panoply of the warrior and a scaling enhancement bonus which scales higher than a belt and means you can save on a belt and buy a better weapon quicker.


ekibus wrote:


Occultist isn't too bad...at first but at later levels trying to manage how many points you have among so many items and making sure you get the resonates you want..can get to be a handful. I keep going back to the occultist but the lack of things to boost accuracy (besides bane) is really bad.

As I pointed out here, that isn't true.


Derklord, yes, countenanced carbuncle was renamed Possessed Hand on D20PFSRD.

At my tables, I have seen: Occultists, Kineticists, Pact Wizards, Elder Mythos Clerics, Monks, Slayers, Warpriests, Fighters, Druids, Magi, Bloodragers, Bolt Ace Gunslingers, Investigators, Inquisitors, Bards, Oracles, Rogues and Rangers...

I have yet to see a Shifter, Hunter, Medium, Alchemist, Sorcerer, Vigilante, or Brawler... although, I'm still relatively new to Pathfinder.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Slim Jim wrote:

The only reason I can fathom not to play an unchained rogue in PFS is if you're not going to spend money on Pathfinder Unchained, and you're playing somewhere that the GMs give a rat's tookus. Otherwise, it's pure upgrade, and (unlike the poor unchained monk) all the existing archetypes still work.

Another good reason not to play an unchained rogue is if you do not want to play a Dex rogue.

The original rogue could be played in multiple styles, the unchained is designed to be a dex rogue, first, last, and always.


@Xenocrat honestly perhaps I'm a bit spoiled but honestly when you look at a investigator or a inquisitor there is a huge difference in accuracy. Most options you listed are easily copied by other players (flanking) or items (belt of str etc) and spending a point to increase your hit becomes insanely expensive aka 5 swings and 5 points lost. Trapping of the warrior is honestly a decent fix but obviously banned in PFS. Thats why I was trying to find out why it was banned.

Grand Lodge

VoodistMonk wrote:

Derklord, yes, countenanced carbuncle was renamed Possessed Hand on D20PFSRD.

This isn't quite right. While they're mechanically identical, d20pfsrd didn't rename them. Countenanced Carbuncle is from The World of Vampire Hunter D while Possessed Hand is from Haunted Heroes Handbook.


Tim Statler, I agree about the original and UnChained Rogue differences. I am playing an original Rogue, a Tengu with a greatsword, and have been enjoying it thusfar.

Jeff Merola, thank you for correcting me on that. Now I know. And upon further examination, following the link in the Vampire Hunter class page on D20PFSRD, they list it as Countenanced Carbuncle... not Possessed Hand.


Possessed Hand is from Haunted Heroes Handbook released in December 2016. Pathfinder: the World of Vampire Hunter D came out around the same time and had the Countenanced Carbuncle feat which does mechanically the same thing with a different flavor.

So in theory you could take both...

For a while I've wanted to make a Eyebiter mesmerist with a possessed hand and a countenanced carbuncle so I could complain about how my body is betraying me.


Tim Statler wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
The only reason I can fathom not to play an unchained rogue in PFS is if you're not going to spend money on Pathfinder Unchained, and you're playing somewhere that the GMs give a rat's tookus. Otherwise, it's pure upgrade, and (unlike the poor unchained monk) all the existing archetypes still work.
Another good reason not to play an unchained rogue is if you do not want to play a Dex rogue. The original rogue could be played in multiple styles, the unchained is designed to be a dex rogue, first, last, and always.

That's not true at all; in fact, I would argue that Rogue’s Edge and especially Debilitating Injury are more powerful aspects of the uRogue than merely saving a feat (Weapon Finesse) and a chunk or two of gold otherwise devoted to Agile weapon enhancements. To be sure, a dex rogue is an even better rogue going unchained, but the formerly much worse (indeed nearly unplayable) strength rogue sees the largest percentage gain in viability when the rising tide lifts all boats. Disoriented? My god, you can actually stand next to something now and not get your head ripped clean off.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I did the math when Unchained came out as I had a strength rogue then. I would have LOST versatility if I would have switched over.

That is the difference between a original Rogue and U-Rogue.
A U-Rogue locks you into a single play style. An original Rogue has enough flexibility that there are multiple play styles easily allowed.
Str rogue - check
Cha rogue - check
Dex rogue - check
Int rogue - check

Are these optimal playstyles? Not really, but this isn't a game you play to 'win" by beating everything in 1 round.


Tim Statler wrote:

Another good reason not to play an unchained rogue is if you do not want to play a Dex rogue.

The original rogue could be played in multiple styles, the unchained is designed to be a dex rogue, first, last, and always.

What prevents you form playing any of these playstyles on an unRogue? I think the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype is not aviable to unRogues in PFS because martial's can't have nice things, but apart from that? What does unRogue lose?

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Possessed Hand is from Haunted Heroes Handbook released in December 2016. Pathfinder: the World of Vampire Hunter D came out around the same time and had the Countenanced Carbuncle feat which does mechanically the same thing with a different flavor.

HHH was released August 31, 2016 according to the Pathfinderwiki. I have trouble finding conclusive information on the Vampire Hunter D book because it's not aviable at paizo.com, not listed on the PFwiki, and not even listed on Wikipedia. Apparently, the PDFs were first aviable to Kickstarter backers November 24, 2016.

@VoodistMonk: I am presuming that Possessed Hand is the original version and Countenanced Carbuncle the blatant copy (hence my sarcastic comment), but I guess we can't be absolutely sure.


In our local PFS community, I've seen almost every PFS-legal class at least once. Part of it is that a few of us have a dozen or more characters and need to distinguish them somehow, part of it is that couple of our regulars are obsessed with devising the weirdest builds they can from sources the rest of us don't own yet.

All of the core classes are well represented, except possibly barbarian. Even the rogue and monk get played, because some of us didn't own Unchained right out of the gate. (It also wouldn't help my wife's skulking slayer or underfoot adept enough to matter.)

Cavaliers are a bit rare due to the mount not always being convenient, but the other (legal) APG classes are all fairly popular.

We have a few unchained barbarians, rogues, and summoners. I'm not sure how many of the local monks are chained vs. core (brawlers seem far more popular, esp. for dipping).

Of the hybrid classes, I have yet to see an arcanist played at all, I think I've only seen a skald played as a pregen, and I've seen maybe one slayer and one warpriest (both from the same player). Brawlers and investigators seem to be the most popular ACG classes, with shamans a step behind them. (We have one regular with an infamously cheesed swashbuckler, but I think I've seen one or two others.)

Samurai, ninjas, and maguses are rare, but we have a few. Gunslingers seem disproportionately popular for the amount of cash flow it takes to keep one viable.

The occult classes are only popular with a couple of the regulars who know OA really well. One of them recently ran The House on Hook Street for us to help get more people familiar with those rules, so I expect to see more psychic characters in the mix soon. I've yet to see a medium in play, and have only seen spiritualists played in that one module. Kineticist seems to be a popular choice for a first occult class to play.

Similarly, the vigilante is rare because of how few people know UI, but they're become a bit more popular lately now that a few more people own it. For similar reasons, I have yet to see a shifter played, though one of our regulars has vowed to do so soon.


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Tim Statler wrote:

I did the math when Unchained came out as I had a strength rogue then. I would have LOST versatility if I would have switched over.

That is the difference between a original Rogue and U-Rogue.
A U-Rogue locks you into a single play style. An original Rogue has enough flexibility that there are multiple play styles easily allowed.
Str rogue - check
Cha rogue - check
Dex rogue - check
Int rogue - check

Are these optimal playstyles? Not really, but this isn't a game you play to 'win" by beating everything in 1 round.

Since the Unchained Rogue offers more class features and the standard Rogue at no cost, it doesn't lock you into anything (unless you are playing with the PFS rules that limit you to talents written for the type of Rogue you are playing). At worst, you gain some class features that you have no use for.

In the case of a strength based rogue, Finesse Training is wasted (except possibly for providing prerequisites) but other added class features are still good.


Only classes I haven't seen played so far are shifter, brawler, skald, swashbuckler and every occult class except kinetisist and mesmerist.

Sovereign Court

Tim Statler wrote:
Are these optimal playstyles? Not really, but this isn't a game you play to 'win" by beating everything in 1 round.

Speak for yourself...

Liberty's Edge

I do feel that I have to defend Medium a little bit here. I'll spoiler this as it's a little off-topic.

Medium is underestimated:
If you follow the FAQ linked above thread, the Medium should always be able to channel a spirit unless extreme circumstances deny him this ability - not the reverse, where unless you can rationalize channeling the spirit you won't be able to. In addition to this, if you're playing PFS - the only area this should really be an issue, to be honest - they have a scenario placed that lets you pick a single spirit and always be able to channel it, no matter the circumstances.

The champion spirit makes you incredibly effective at combat for a variety of styles - orc hornbow + ranged combat is ridiculous damage, TWFing leverages the to-hit and damage nicely, and a one-big-hit style THFing build gets a lot out of the extra attack that stacks with almost everything. The trickster spirit is incredibly good as a skill monkey (I'd argue the best in the game), and after 6th level with essentially Sneak Attack, becomes a solid combatant should you put a little effort into getting off your sneak attacks. Guardian and Marshal are fairly garbage, and Heirophant and Archmage aren't as good as the classes they're emulating, but having access to any spell a 6th level caster of your level would have access to on the cleric or wizard lists in downtime is incredibly useful, especially at high levels. I've played several Mediums, and especially at high levels they are incredibly versatile characters. I played one in Feast of Dust, so fairly high level, in a party of Inquisitor x 2 (one was a gunslinger dip), wizard (very high power diviner wizard), oracle, and a sorcerer. I'd certainly argue that I had the second most out-of-combat utility in the party (after the wizard), and in-combat I was the most survivable character whilst also (roughly) tying with the gunslinger/inquisitor at around 300 DPR.

In terms of classes I don't see often, I have several home games I run and play in, plus PFS. Between them, I've rarely if ever seen Brawler (people don't like martials really), Cavalier (Painful to get working in PFS without being a Small sized creature, plus pure martial), Fighter (there are a few around - typically dips or people joking around, but considering how core a class it is, very rare), Monk (Unchained or Core), Ninja (especially with Unchained, they're just not looked at), Psychic (one player enjoys them and has two, no-one else has touched one), Ranger (especially ones that aren't archetyped to give up Favoured Enemy/apply it to anyone you fight), Shaman (I have a couple of build ideas, but the only times I've even seem them considered is to steal from the cleric ad sorc/wiz lists in addition to their own, and even then disregarded for not being mechanically interesting outside of that), Shifter (they are, admittedly rather new), Slayer (pure martials don't get a lot of love), Spiritualist (I love the class, but outside of myself they're typically viewed as a worse Summoner), and Warpriest (inquisitor overwhelmingly populates the '6th level casting combat-focused divine servant' niche).


ekibus wrote:
Medium is rough because they need to be in a location to get the spirit...in PFS that can be tough and then what if you are in a spot that lacks a place you need to get a spirit from?

Yeah... that is why I tend to view Medium as "that weird melee class with a cleric option and a bunch of other options people rarely if ever use".

Champion is clearly spelled out for its location stuff, and you can actively construct such an area after the faq- you need a place of violence. The bandits that attacked you at night? They delivered that place to you. And since they added hunting as an example, I think "Ok, just grab survival and stab a rabbit". It is also fairly powerful- it isn't hard to build it with 4 full BAB attacks with resources in class.

Cleric is a nice additional option- because you can just find a temple or something in town, and the cleric spell list is good for "we need this spell, but we can get it in a day or two" range- like removing level drain and such.


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I feel like the sort of GM who will respond to the medium by regularly denying access to locations suitable for the spirit they want is also the sort of GM who will regularly make it impossible for the gunslinger to purchase powder/ammunition (or the materials to craft such.)

I mean, if you specialize in an exotic weapon, a GM is fully within their rights to not let you ever find a better one of provide someone who will enchant the one you've got... it's just kind of a jerky thing to do.

I mean, it's possible a GM will never let a Wizard learn any new spells save for what they get at level up. It's plausible that no spellbooks, arcane scrolls, or other wizards will appear in a given campaign...

Basic principles of "characters should have access to the stuff they need to make their character work" should also apply when that stuff is kinds of places. Having there be sites of great battles around wherever you go is a lot easier to justify than "Magic katanas are available in rural Ustalav". Particularly since the Medium doesn't need to know who fought somewhere, when, or why - they can just feel that it happened; contacting the spirits does not require knowledge of history.


Tim Statler wrote:
I did the math when Unchained came out as I had a strength rogue then. I would have LOST versatility if I would have switched over.
I'll bite: What would your build have lost?
Quote:
That is the difference between a original Rogue and U-Rogue. A U-Rogue locks you into a single play style. An original Rogue has enough flexibility that there are multiple play styles easily allowed.
What functionally of core rogue does uRogue remove? ...It removes nothing. All new features of uRogue are an addition. Zero functionality present in core rogue has been removed -- and this is not the case with any of the other unchained classes (as for example uMonks, who cannot spend Ki during a full-attack to gain an extra swing with a temple sword or other flurryable manufactured weapon).
Quote:

Str rogue - check

Cha rogue - check
Dex rogue - check
Int rogue - check

Strength rogues (core) were notoriously unplayable in PFS. They died like mice unless multiclassed with other martials to give them some backbone in the form of higher BAB, raging HP, fortitude saves, and better equipment proficiencies (and were at that point just fighters or barbarians with better skills and some situational extra damage dice). About the only core rogue concept I can think of that doesn't carry over is playing an Eldritch Scoundrel in PFS -- but that archetype is newer than the unchained base class, and the limitation exists only in that campaign.

-- It was only a few years ago that you couldn't bring up this site without encountering at least a couple "Rogues Suck!" threads continuously active at all times.


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I would also like to defend the Medium, but while the class is mechanically sound it does suffer from "Paperwork". My players avoid paperwork whenever possible. They tend to play spontaneous casters or martials, and rarely ever play a class with a pet, summons, or a class with shifting class features. Thus the Medium and Shaman are anathema to them, as the sheer day to day paperwork of running those classes is beyond most of their patience.

Rotating most of your class features on a daily basis, while really cool (reminds me of the Factotum and Chameleon from 3.5) is very intensive on the player. If I was playing instead of GMing you can bet your boots that both Medium and Shaman fall into my top 5 class choices.


ShroudedInLight wrote:
I would also like to defend the Medium, but while the class is mechanically sound it does suffer from "Paperwork". My players avoid paperwork whenever possible. They tend to play spontaneous casters or martials, and rarely ever play a class with a pet, summons, or a class with shifting class features. Thus the Medium and Shaman are anathema to them, as the sheer day to day paperwork of running those classes is beyond most of their patience.

This is pretty much why even the biggest fans of OA in our local PFS crowd avoid the medium class. I think they'd be perfectly willing to play or GM the class in a home game, but when you're rotating between multiple PFS PCs on a regular basis, adding one that requires statting up multiple versions of itself is a bit much to juggle even for them.

Shamans seem easy in comparison. There's two of us who keep cheat sheets of what all is available to us through wandering spirit and wandering hex, but we also have some favorites we default to when there's no pressing reason to choose differently.


Our group has unanimously banned core rogue XD


Tim Emrick wrote:
ShroudedInLight wrote:
I would also like to defend the Medium, but while the class is mechanically sound it does suffer from "Paperwork". My players avoid paperwork whenever possible. They tend to play spontaneous casters or martials, and rarely ever play a class with a pet, summons, or a class with shifting class features. Thus the Medium and Shaman are anathema to them, as the sheer day to day paperwork of running those classes is beyond most of their patience.

This is pretty much why even the biggest fans of OA in our local PFS crowd avoid the medium class. I think they'd be perfectly willing to play or GM the class in a home game, but when you're rotating between multiple PFS PCs on a regular basis, adding one that requires statting up multiple versions of itself is a bit much to juggle even for them.

Shamans seem easy in comparison. There's two of us who keep cheat sheets of what all is available to us through wandering spirit and wandering hex, but we also have some favorites we default to when there's no pressing reason to choose differently.

I have a blood rager character that needs 4 different character sheets based on what they are currently doing and when the triggering effect is on I just swap character sheets.

Sovereign Court

The people I most frequently play with don't shy away from a class because of homework. Shape changing, pets, summons, etc, are all very common.

Instead we tend to shy away from classes based on power level, or perceived power level. This generally comes in the form of choosing the classes that are best at doing whatever a given character build is intended to do. Why play X when Y does the thing I want better?


Ok thank you all, it basically sounds like it varies a lot. After a really rough session on Sat I kinda realized that spellcasters seem a bit short in supply in my parts. I'm leaning towards going shaman (witch doctor) ..reach build with channel fun. Life and lore with a bodyguard familiar 14 str, 12 dex, 12 con, 13 int, 16 wis and 13 cha


If you really want to never have to worry about having the right class to round out the party in PFS, maybe try a Medium? It's a poor class in normal play because you're generally going to be inferior to what you're pretending to be that particular day, but in the context of PFS it's actually pretty useful to have the capacity to bring an entirely different character depending on what party you happen to have at the table. The hardest sessions for me were always the ones where everyone comes to the table with similar roles in mind, whether that be damage or support, and the Medium does a great job of mitigating that risk.

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