I have come to the conclusion that you don't pay any money at all to craft stuff using 'advanced alchemy'. So I am even more confused as people in this thread posting that you have to pay.
The stuff you craft for your 'daily preparation' says to ignore the requirements of reagents. And since reagents/materials are the stuff that costs money (per the crafting skill) therefore its free, but becomes inert after 24 hours.
Or I could be wrong.
No, you're right.
We were all talking about the times when you don't want to spend RP to make a daily alchemical item. In those cases, you'd need to spend money and downtime to make it.
There are three ways to make alchemical items:
Daily allotment. Takes 1 hour and costs RP. Lasts 24 hours.
Quick Alchemy. Takes 1 round and costs RP. Lasts 1 round.
Downtime. Costs money and lots of time. No expiration.
It's that third area where I believe it takes too much time and money. Especially once you gain the Alchemist Feat that lets you increase your batch size to 8.
I have come to the conclusion that you don't pay any money at all to craft stuff using 'advanced alchemy'. So I am even more confused as people in this thread posting that you have to pay.
The stuff you craft for your 'daily preparation' says to ignore the requirements of reagents. And since reagents/materials are the stuff that costs money (per the crafting skill) therefore its free, but becomes inert after 24 hours.
Or I could be wrong.
No, you're right.
We were all talking about the times when you don't want to spend RP to make a daily alchemical item. In those cases, you'd need to spend money and downtime to make it.
There are three ways to make alchemical items:
Daily allotment. Takes 1 hour and costs RP. Lasts 24 hours.
Quick Alchemy. Takes 1 round and costs RP. Lasts 1 round.
Downtime. Costs money and lots of time. No expiration.It's that third area where I believe it takes too much time and money. Especially once you gain the Alchemist Feat that lets you increase your batch size to 8.
Are we sure you can even craft 'permanent' alchemical stuff in downtime?
The statement:"You can use this feat to create common alchemical items as long as you have their formulas in your formula book, though their power is fleeting. You can create these items in two different ways, as described below. An alchemical item you create this way has the infused trait."
leads me to believe that the alchemical craft feat you get only lets you craft via quick alchemy or daily prep. And no other ways.
I think they need to give the Alchemist a second option rather than bombs. The mutagens need to be available at level 1 so the Alchemist isn't a one note. A Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde character should be a starting option.
This assumes they fix the resonance problem.
PS - I also agree, the character class is really complicated to parse at the beginning and all the info is all over the place.
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You still get the feat. So you can make stuff normally. It just has added functionality.Ofc, there's no reason to craft since the things you make normally aren't infused (aka they need RP to be used).
So, you can make a normal mutagen, and spend 1 RP to drink it, after you pay a boatload of gp. Or you can spend the same RP and make it on the spot...
Since noninfused bombs don't...
Wow. I had missed that non-infused alchemical items still cost an RP. So no matter what an alchemist does, there's literally no way to get around the RP issue. Which means to be the most effective alchemist you can be, you have to eschew magic items.
(All my alchemical item analysis has been on poisons; I haven't had the time to look at the other stuff).
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You still get the feat. So you can make stuff normally. It just has added functionality.Ofc, there's no reason to craft since the things you make normally aren't infused (aka they need RP to be used).
So, you can make a normal mutagen, and spend 1 RP to drink it, after you pay a boatload of gp. Or you can spend the same RP and make it on the spot...
Since noninfused bombs don't...
Wow. I had missed that non-infused alchemical items still cost an RP. So no matter what an alchemist does, there's literally no way to get around the RP issue. Which means to be the most effective alchemist you can be, you have to eschew magic items.
(All my alchemical item analysis has been on poisons; I haven't had the time to look at the other stuff).
I'll save you a bit of time.
Bombs - Got nerfed. Oh but they got new abilities but also bloody nerfed. The loss of Int to damage means our damage floor is lower than the other classes. Heck, even Spell casters get a bonus to spells. And then there's the fact we can't use bombs till level 6.
"What do you mean, just throw the bomb, nothing stopping you"
Okay fine.
"OW why'd you hit me!"
Seriously, I got fussed at for not getting Precise Bombs in PF1(After the group nudged me into Pointblank shot but different issue). The higher HP and lack of bonus damage to splash might let bombers get a few blows in but we'll see how the community/tables takes this.
Also with the nerf to splash in general, no more clever "Aim for the square next to them" bank shots. Not to mention Touch AC saw rework to the point it's not much lower than normal AC. Oh and we really don't have a way of boosting our hit rate built into the class.
Mutagen - Paizo. Guys. If you hated people going into Alchemist for level 1 Mutagen, I would have liked it if you just removed it from the game.
Yeah okay. The Time Limit is a pain. 2 turns to transform, Paizo do you know how much can change in battle in 2 turns? To add to this, your Mutagen only comes online really at level 8. Almost half way done, really? You're going to need Fast Onset and you're going to need Feral Mutagen as a Feat.
There's also the Mutagens themselves. You want to be a Mutagen combatant? Well I hope you like Unarmed attacks because that's ALL you're going to be doing.
-Bestial Mutagen only boosts Unarmed attacks, so put that weapon down Mr Hyde.
-Bullheaded looks really poor as a Mutagen. Not only are there better ways to boost skill checks but also ways to boost Will(HELLO Bravo's Brew on the SAME Page), but you Lose One RP or more while under the effects. What...Why?!? How does this work when it wears off?!?
-Juggernaut isn't for us, it's for Fighter, Monk, Barbarian. Unless under Bestial, Juggernaut is for the front line classes or as an HP sponge. Only time we can use it is when we can use 2 at once(Level 14, hahahaha)
-Cognitive, Quick Silver and Silver Tongue are also just... meh. Good news we are still a Skill Monkey... it just takes RP/Gold to do so...., really? Especially with the new Skill system this was deemed to be something Alchemist still needed?
So, at least to me; Bombs got nerfed. Mutagens aren't worth it till near halfway through the game. Oh we got Poison but... we have no way of boosting our attack roll in our class. And Fort tends to still be an average-high save. Not to meantion the things immune to it(HELLO Undead!)
PF1 Alchemist was the class that made the game 'click' for me. How it could be slotted into really any party and do really any role. How it seemed so customization.
PF2 Alchemist seems to want you to focus on 1 thing. It's own abilities fight for attention, it needs more items getting printed, and all it can do now seems like it's better on another class.
PF1 Alch got me into the game. PF2 Alch is probably the number 1 thing that makes me go "PF2 isn't for me".
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If Clerics can have a separate Channel pool and Druids can have a separate Wild Shape pool, Alchemists need a separate (and BIG) Quick Alchemy pool.
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If Clerics can have a separate Channel pool and Druids can have a separate Wild Shape pool, Alchemists need a separate (and BIG) Quick Alchemy pool.you forgot wizards, sorcs and Bards having seperate Spell pools. Monks having seperate Ki pools, and etc.
No, that's a unified shared mechanic. If Channels and Wild Shape relied on Spell Points they wouldn't be odd men out.
Alchemists shouldn't replace resonance for quick alchemy with spell points for alchemy because they need a much bigger pool than other spell point pools, and multiclassing would mix their big alchemist spell points pool with point based abilities from other classes. There's no powers (maybe) you'd rather use 15 times a day than quick alchemy but the backdoor option shouldn't even be there.
I have come to the conclusion that you don't pay any money at all to craft stuff using 'advanced alchemy'. So I am even more confused as people in this thread posting that you have to pay.
The stuff you craft for your 'daily preparation' says to ignore the requirements of reagents. And since reagents/materials are the stuff that costs money (per the crafting skill) therefore its free, but becomes inert after 24 hours.
Or I could be wrong.
No, you're right.
We were all talking about the times when you don't want to spend RP to make a daily alchemical item. In those cases, you'd need to spend money and downtime to make it.
There are three ways to make alchemical items:
Daily allotment. Takes 1 hour and costs RP. Lasts 24 hours.
Quick Alchemy. Takes 1 round and costs RP. Lasts 1 round.
Downtime. Costs money and lots of time. No expiration.It's that third area where I believe it takes too much time and money. Especially once you gain the Alchemist Feat that lets you increase your batch size to 8.
Are we sure you can even craft 'permanent' alchemical stuff in downtime?
The statement:
"You can use this feat to create common alchemical items as long as you have their formulas in your formula book, though their power is fleeting. You can create these items in two different ways, as described below. An alchemical item you create this way has the infused trait."
leads me to believe that the alchemical craft feat you get only lets you craft via quick alchemy or daily prep. And no other ways.You still get the feat. So you can make stuff normally. It just has added functionality.
See here is where I interpret it as specific overrides general. Generally you can craft stuff normally with the feat, but this specific class features tells you the TWO ways you can use the feat (quick alch and daily prep). Your interpretation would mean there are 3 ways to use the feat, which isn't what they wrote.
given that you gain Class feats that interact with downtime crafting, it makes no sense that you can't do downtime crafting. And you certainly can't pick up a feat you already have.
i interpret it like (random example):
"A fighter gains Power Attack. He can use Power attack to gain +10 damage once every blue moon."
the above means he gains power attack, and can use it as normal, but once in a blue moon he gains something extra.
The problem is it needs to be clear and not come down to interpretation. The fact that a cursory reading can bring the other conclusion and a more thorough reading (yours) is needed to clarify is a genuine problem.
I had hoped Paizo would've learned by now, but they're still in the habit of inconsistent wording. I mean, I love the creatives they have making content for them, but in the corebook it needs to be one unified voice.
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What change in splash doesn't let you do bank shots? I must've missed that or something.
Also bombs do add INT to damage after 4. if you get concentrated Splash alchemist feat.
This lets you switch the splash damage of 1 to your INT score. and remember, unlike pathfinder 1 in this game. the splash damage is a seperate mechanic unrelated to the rolled dice.So for alchemist flask. at lv 4. 2d8 fire damage + 2 persistent damage + 1 splash damage (OR with the feat INT Splash) on the main target.
Then anyone next to them just take the INT portion.There are 3-4 spots in the book, all no where near each other, that cover splash. the Empowered bombs area, and one of othe other spots call out that the main target takes the splash amount as well. I had to Ctrl F to find em all
In general though.. I feel like bombs are meant for the persistent damage then switch to another weapon. Which is actually kinda sad but doable if they fix the various supply issues. or i find a way to quick draw.
I do hope the final alchemist ends up being the modular "jack of all trades. fit in any group" concept again. that is why its my favorite class in P1.
I do really like them being item based not magic based though. as a random sidenote
1) Concentrated Splash is only for Splash damage, not the primary target.
2) Without Concentrated Splash, you can still bank shots into squares to hit targets with the splash and spare your allies. For all of 1 damage. Even with it, your Splash is going to be what... 4 damage? A game breaking 5?3) Even then, it competes with Efficient and Enduring Alchemy. And lemme tell you, you're probably going to pick up Efficient just to get the most bang out of your RP buck.
So your math is, 2d8 fire + 2 Persistent fire damage. Oh and +1 damage if you fail the attack roll, what is this? We have to Fail our attack roll to get more damage?
Also let us recall that if you focus bombs, you also don't get Mutagens. You don't do Poison. And you most certainly won't do Support. Because all your RP is going into Bombs. It has to given that it seems easier to miss TAC now AND our bombs do less damage.
The only reason Bombs exist now is to let the other players have their fun with Flat footed. And that condition doesn't even HELP us out to hit. Persistent damage, what are they thinking?
I'll admit that PF1 does have it's faults but most games(Tabletops not being excused from this) tend to favor ending a fight as fast as possible. I'll take a Fighter or Ranger that does Alchemist damage upfront in 1 swing instead of waiting 2-3 turns or more to get the same result.
No seriously, why is this here? And with Mutagens taking 2 turns to kick in(The turn you use it and the turn after) on average? Heck even with Poison! Why on Golarion's green earth was most of our damage shifted over to DoTs when the manner of play discourages using them from a player perceptive?
Why is our Class Ability "To wait"?
What was Bleed really that busted from PF1? Because I don't recall people saying it was.
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Wow. How did I miss that? Maybe I was just so hopeful of "Yes okay, this is how we're viable."
Yeah, okay. This makes me a sad Alchemist.
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After theory-crafting and playtesting a bomb-focused Alchemist, I have a few thoughts.
First, being forced to deal splash damage can be problematic. Tactically, it can be a powerful situational tool, but currently it feels like Precise Bombs is a necessity (even if you don’t want to invest in splash damage) to not hurt your allies and you have to wait until 6th level to take it. Instead, I suggest that the alchemist gains the Empowered Bomb at 1st level, with the following feature (or alternatively have this as a feat option at 1st level):
“When an alchemist creates a bomb, they can choose to create it with the focused trait. This trait replaces the bomb’s splash trait, and instead causes the bomb’s base damage dice to increase by one step (1d6 -> 1d8, 1d8 -> 1d10, etc.).”
This would allow the alchemist to choose between splash damaging opponents, or focusing damage on a singular threat while not hurting his allies. This would also help the alchemist’s damage concerns, allowing Acid Flasks to scale up to 6d6 persistent acid damage and Alchemist’s Fire to scale up to 6d10 fire damage and 6 persistent. Splash would still be strong, especially with the feat selection available, but would allow the alchemist to play around their bombs and splash damage in another way unique to the class.
Second, Quick Bomber is unnecessary with Rogue Multiclassing. At 2nd level, an alchemist can gain the Rogue Dedication Feat in place of their usual class feat. Then at 4th level, an alchemist can take Basic Trickery to gain the Quick Draw Feat. On page 359: “Bombs are martial thrown weapons with a range of 20 feet.” With the Quick Draw Feat at 4th level, an alchemist can draw and throw their prepared bombs in a single action, making it far more effective than Quick Bomber. When I playtested this build, it helped my alchemist feel much better with the action economy system (no burned actions with prepared bombs!). Unfortunately, I still ran out of bombs and had to fall back on my hand crossbow, but while I had bombs I felt like I was making meaningful damage contributions to combat… though the Barbarian was still doing more damage, as well as the Sorcerer when he was casting spells. Quick Draw should be a feat available to the alchemist class without needing to multiclass. A bomb-focused alchemist shouldn’t have to multiclass just so they can do what they want to do.
Third, the Free Action/“Once per Turn”/Quick Alchemy feats seem poor as the game goes on. Up until 13th level the “once per turn” doesn’t matter since you can only make one item with the feature, and after that it feels restraining for the cost. They shouldn’t be “once per turn”. Sticky Bomb is already kept in check by the persistent damage rule that damage of the same type doesn’t stack, and Exploitative Bomb should be powerful considering you’re spending an action and resources to create and throw more powerful bombs. Make it so that they can only apply the effects of one Free Action/Quick Alchemy feat to a bomb to prevent effect/feat stacking on a single bomb.
This brings me to Debilitating Bombs, which I love conceptually. The initial Debilitating Bombs gained at 6th level is weak, as three of the desired effects are already achievable with level 1 bombs, and two don’t require a saving throw. Greater Debilitating Bombs gained at 10th level provides some nice debuff options, but the actual debuffs (outside of Stupefied) are only a -1, which seems underwhelming for the cost at this level. True Debilitating Bombs gained at 14th level is great!... but by that point the alchemist has already had to invest 3 feats. Perfect Debilitating Bombs gained at 18th level is a good capstone for the feat chain, but again the alchemist has had to spend a total of 4 feats to get to this point. What I’d suggest is including the sluggish 1, enfeebled 1, and stupefied 1 alongside the dazzled condition into Debilitating Bombs (6th level), having Greater Debilitating Bombs (10th) increase the power of the conditions, and True Debilitating Bombs (14th) applying the status 1 effect even on a success but not a critical success. Alongside this, these debilitations should function like the rogues’ debilitations by making it so a target can only be affected by one debilitation effect at a time. I’d be cool to make two Greater Debilitating Bombs at 13th level and use them to debuff two opponents for my party.
I also want to bring up the Goblin Ancestry Feat: Burn It. The writing is a bit unclear, but I’m going to assume it allows you to add ½ the item’s level as conditional damage to fire items such as alchemist’s fire. This one ancestry feat allows an alchemist to add up to +9 damage to their 6d8 alchemist’s fires at 19th level, +1 conditional persistent fire damage. Theoretically, the +9 damage might also apply to the splash of the bomb, which would be ridiculous! Overall this trait seems like a bit much, and it feels like a requirement for any bomb-focused alchemist to take for the later levels… and much like the Rogue Dedication to gain Quick Draw, it feels strange having to invest in outside feats to make the alchemist’s bombs feel more powerful. I’d suggest either toning down (and clarifying) the feat, or making something like this available to the alchemist as a class feat. Goblins are great, Goblin alchemists are better, but when every alchemist is either a Goblin or has ancestral ties to Goblins something is up.
As a side note, I’m unsure of the damage dice for Liquid Ice. The item entry lists 1d4; however, the Ranger Blog and the Hunter’s Snares imply it should be 1d8.
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I wanted to bring up something I don't think anyone has pointed out.
The Level 17 Feat, "Alchemical Alacrity", is completely useless to anyone that DOESN'T get the level 4 "Enduring Alchemy" feat. Why?
Because AA reads: "When using the Quick Alchemy action, you can spend up to 3 Resonance Points to make up to three alchemical items as described in that action (1 per Resonance Point spent). These items need not be the same." But as we've definitely discussed, Quick Alchemy items fade by the START of your next turn - so you've just used 1 action of 3 to grab 3 items, of which you can only POSSIBLY use 2, short of an ally coming to take one off your hands.
What the hell, Paizo?
Beyond that, I was initially holding out hope regarding the bombs, as actually using them does NOT require the use of a Resonance Point... but it's functionally required because of the wording of the level 3 Feat "Empowered Bombs", which applies only to bombs you've crafted AND have the Infused trait. So much for the idea of crafting a bunch during downtime!
As a side note, I’m unsure of the damage dice for Liquid Ice. The item entry lists 1d4; however, the Ranger Blog and the Hunter’s Snares imply it should be 1d8.
I think the 1d4 is right, as the Freezing Snare is a level 8 Uncommon item - so at the commensurate level, an infused Liquid Ice bomb would be dealing 3d4.
One benefit of the quick bomber over quick draw is it has an alternate use of if you use quick alchemy you make a bomb and can draw a second bomb using that quick alchemy action.
If you tried this as a rogue you would have to one action quick alchemy and then burn another action to draw one or two more bombs.
So even for rogues multiclass quick bomber has some specific advantages.
Actually that pretty clearly shows that the main target does not take the Splash damage, except on a Failure. Otherwise why would it say Also?
That whole line about "On a failure (but not a critical failure), the target of the attack also takes the splash damage."
Would not be necessary at all if they take splash damage on a Critical Success, a Success and a Failure like "all creatures within 5 feet of the target take the listed amount of splash damage."
The only part that might make that questionable is the empower bombs listing all that on a hit.
1) Concentrated Splash is only for Splash damage, not the primary target.
Actually the main target ~also~ takes splash damage. There are 4 different spots in the PDF that cover splash. (I only quoted three because the other one is just the exact wording of the splash trait and I do not have that quote in my notes off hand because of that but ctrl F splash).
Splash trait, and from Empower bombs both clearly call out that the main target also takes the damage.
" A splash weapon
can deal splash damage in addition to its normal damage"
" it would deal 2d6 fire damage, 2 persistent fire damage, and 1 splash damage on a hit."
The section that confuses most people, is the small preamble before the actual Alchemical Items, which lacks the extra line that all other spots have, that I quoted above. Which I assume is due to the compartmentalization of Paizo's staff.
but 2 (3 counting the not quote) sections vs the 1 that omits it-and is NOT discussing the traits, but cites the trait as a reference the reader is meant to know, indicates that the splash indeed hits the main target on direct hit, is not mullti'd on a crit. and if you miss, the bottle doesn't hit them but the splash still does. (because they seem to no longer have the rule where if you miss, you roll to see where it lands, it simply lands close enough they get splash (it is vague as to if anyone else is also splashed. but it implies that it would. but doesn't actually state it. so that's really needs to be cleared up)
** spoiler omitted **...
I see "All creatures within 5 feet of the target" again and again. I don't see "All creatures within 5 feet of the target, AND the target".
I mean I don't see any other spell or mechanic that targets the same creature within X feet of itself. Now you could very well be right but they really need to clear that up.
And even THEN, Your bombs aren't your bombs. Your Bombs are the team's Flatfooted. And you also can't splice in anything else because you have to focus on Bombs JUST to be able to stay on par with other damage dealers.
There's also the Mutagens themselves. You want to be a Mutagen combatant? Well I hope you like Unarmed attacks because that's ALL you're going to be doing.
-Bestial Mutagen only boosts Unarmed attacks, so put that weapon down Mr Hyde.
As a note, the original Mr. Hyde used knives and carved people up. It was only later depictions like The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen that portrayed him as a non-green Hulk.
But I digress...
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After attempting to build alchemists at a variety of levels (specifically 1st, 4th, 7th, 9th, 12th, 14th and 17th) and trying a few out at the table... I have mixed feelings on the class design.
The move away from emulating spells and strictly into alchemical items is exactly what I had hoped for (given we had house-ruled alchemists to work this way at our table) and the ability to create items efficiently for the day, or inefficiently on the fly is a good compromise between convenience and preparation - in theory. Having class features that bolster alchemical items to make them more potent is also essential for the class to stand out as the master of alchemy.
With a bit more time and tinkering, the alchemist could be a fantastic class to play, but as it stands there are a number of issues that compound together to erect a bigger barrier to fun than I'd prefer.
Bulk: The fact that alchemists need a formula book (no cost, but 1 bulk), to buy an alchemy kit (2 bulk) with 60sp of their starting 150sp, and their creations are all a minimum of L, and then they need weapons and armor on top of that - a hand crossbow and studded leather are both 1 bulk each, respectively, and the poor alchemist starts running into problems of carrying capacity really fast.
Suggestions (in an and/or fashion):
Resonance: Alchemists are the only class that has a shared pool of resources they must split between their magic items and their class abilities, and this is a problem. Additionally, all the alchemist's creations draw from the same pool, whether bombs, healing or utility effects. This is akin to a spellcaster that lacks cantrips or spell-point fueled powers. It is excessively harsh in terms of resource economy.
Suggestions (in an and/or fashion):
Proficiencies:
But back to the Alchemist. Given there are no 'alchemical cantrips', and bombs don't last forever (especially if you create anything else), alchemists are going to have to default to using weapons in combat a lot of the time. Unfortunately, their options here are extremely limited: Light armor and simple weapons only. For most alchemists, this means shooting things with a crossbow unless they start burning feats to either gain martial training or multiclass fighter. Indeed, the latter I found to be invaluable, as it allowed my alchemist to be Strength based, carry their gear and focus on using their alchemy for buffs and healing, and beat people down with a bastard sword, Geralt Style.
Suggestions (in an and/or fashion):
In terms of skill proficiencies, starting with 3+Int isn't a bad deal when the class is Int based, but having only Arcana, Medicine and Crafting as signature skills was rather limiting. In PF1 the alchemist had Disable Device, Knowledge (nature), Perception, Sleight of Hand and Survival... yet the PF2 alchemist does not get these options initially, and must burn precious class feats to get them at higher levels - Tricky Tinker is an 8th level feat.
Suggestions (in an and/or fashion):
Class Features & Feats: The alchemist sits in a very strange place in terms of class features vs class feats. Empower Bombs is the standout as it is a class feature (not feat) that makes bombs a viable combat option throughout their career, though the minimal attack bonuses is somewhat odd - I'd have thought alchemists would at least become experts in bombs? All other granted class features primarily deal with downtime (e.g. Mutagen Crafting, which as written doesn't work with Advanced Alchemy) or Quick Alchemy. The latter being something of an emergency measure, given the extremely limited pool of resources you have to create items. Speaking of mutagens, it is extremely disappointing that they do not work with Advanced Alchemy.
Many class feats are largely mandatory in order to make certain aspects of the class viable, such as Fast Onset for mutagens, or Quick Bomber and Calculated Splash for bombs. This makes advancing in the class at times not very exciting, as rather than looking at new options or abilities to broaden the character, I instead found myself feeling like I was taking the obligatory feat tax needed to play the basic character.
Suggestions (in an and/or fashion):
Alchemical Items: The list of alchemical items shows promise, but is a bit of a hodgepodge that could use some consistency. Probably the most usable of the list are Antidote and Antiplague, which are a single recipe that can be effectively heightened to have greater effect - perfect! This works for both the Craft skill and allows alchemists to heighten their elixirs via Advanced Alchemy without having to learn new versions of the same thing. Contrasting this are the Elixir of Life series, where each version is essentially just more dice of healing while still a unique formula to learn. Others, like the Cheetah's Elixir and Eagle-Eye Elixir have no improved or heightened versions, but look like they should - especially in the hands of an alchemist.
Suggestions (in an and/or fashion):
And then there are mutagens. Not only are they each a unique recipe for the lesser, standard, greater and true version, their scaling inconsistent, but their effects are mostly rather lacklustre for something as arduous to make and use. Each is essentially based off granting a bonus to one ability score and a penalty to another, but the bonuses are overly specific, and the penalties often rather more harsh than one would expect (e.g. dealing damage rather than reducing max hp). The combination of multiple recipes, necessity to craft them (at large expense and time), class feat (Fast Onset) or wait until combat is almost over before they do anything, mediocre bonuses and harsh penalties... they're just not in a good spot right now.
I'd suggest the following: Mutagens kick in for alchemists at 5th level, and they can make them via Advanced Alchemy, though only on a one-for-one basis. Additionally, the Mutagen Crafting class feature allows you to ignore the onset time and the drawbacks associated with the mutagen.
Activation: Operate Activation; Onset end of your next turn.
The bestial mutagen comes in for types, lesser, standard, greater and true. Upon drinking a lesser bestial mutagen, your features transform into something more bestial and you take on muscle mass, but your lumbering form is clumsy.
Benefit For 10 minutes you gain a +2 item bonus to Athletics checks, melee attack rolls modified by Strength and melee damage rolls modified by Strength. You add only half this bonus to ranged attacks with the Propulsive property. Additionally, while this mutagen is in effect, you increase your unarmed damage to three damage dice. A standard bestial mutagen grants a +3 item bonus, and increases unarmed damage to four damage dice. A greater bestial mutagen grants a +4 item bonus and increases unarmed damage to five damage dice. A true bestial mutagen grants a +5 item bonus and increases unarmed damage to six damage dice.
Drawback: You take a -1 penalty to Acrobatics checks, Stealth checks, Thievery Checks, Reflex Saves and AC.
Type lesser; Level 5; Price 20gp
Type standard; Level 9; Price 90gp
Type greater; Level 13; Price 400gp
Type true; Level 17; Price 2,000gp
Activation: Operate Activation; Onset end of your next turn.
The quicksilver mutagen comes in for types, lesser, standard, greater and true. Upon drinking a lesser quicksilver mutagen, your features become thin and angular and you become swift and more nimble, but your body also becomes more fragile.
Benefit For 10 minutes you gain a +2 item bonus to Acrobatics checks, Stealth checks, Thievery checks, Reflex saves and attack rolls and damage rolls modified by Dexterity and you become accelerated 10. A standard quicksilver mutagen grants a +3 item bonus, and grants accelerated 15. A greater quicksilver mutagen grants a +4 item bonus and grants accelerated 20. A true quicksilver mutagen grants a +5 item bonus and grants accelerated 25.
Drawback: You take a -1 penalty to Fortitude saves and reduce your maximum hit points by an amount equal to your level.
Type lesser; Level 5; Price 20gp
Type standard; Level 9; Price 90gp
Type greater; Level 13; Price 400gp
Type true; Level 17; Price 2,000gp
Activation: Operate Activation; Onset end of your next turn.
The juggernaut mutagen comes in for types, lesser, standard, greater and true. Upon drinking a lesser juggernaut mutagen, your body becomes thick and sturdy, and you exhibit a healthy glow, though you tend to be ponderous and unobservant.
Benefit For 10 minutes you gain a +2 item bonus to Fortitude saves and gain an amount of temporary hit points equal to twice your level. Whenever you are at your maximum hit points for at least 1 full minute, you regain these temporary hit points. A standard juggernaut mutagen grants a +3 item bonus, and grants temporary hit points equal to three times your level. A greater juggernaut mutagen grants a +4 item bonus and grants temporary hit points equal to four times your level. A true juggernaut mutagen grants a +5 item bonus and grants temporary hit points equal to five times your level.
Drawback: You take a -1 penalty to Will saves, Perception checks, Medicine checks, Nature checks, Religion checks and Survival checks.
Type lesser; Level 5; Price 20gp
Type standard; Level 9; Price 90gp
Type greater; Level 13; Price 400gp
Type true; Level 17; Price 2,000gp
Activation: Operate Activation; Onset end of your next turn.
The cognitive mutagen comes in for types, lesser, standard, greater and true. Upon drinking a lesser cognitive mutagen, your mind becomes clear and cognition flows freely, but physical matters seem ephemeral.
Benefit For 10 minutes you gain a +2 item bonus to Arcana, Crafting, Occultism and Society checks, and all checks to Recall Knowledge. You also treat a critical failure on Recall Knowledge as a failure instead. A standard cognitive mutagen grants a +3 item bonus. A greater cognitive mutagen grants a +4 item bonus. A true cognitive mutagen grants a +5 item bonus.
Drawback: You take a -1 penalty to attack and damage rolls modified by Strength, Athletics checks, and can carry 1 less Bulk than normal before becoming encumbered, and the maximum Bulk you can carry is 2 less.
Type lesser; Level 5; Price 20gp
Type standard; Level 9; Price 90gp
Type greater; Level 13; Price 400gp
Type true; Level 17; Price 2,000gp
Activation: Operate Activation; Onset end of your next turn.
The bullheaded mutagen comes in for types, lesser, standard, greater and true. Upon drinking a lesser bullheaded mutagen, you gain more control of your mind and can steel your will against mental assaults, but your arrogance makes you off-putting.
Benefit For 10 minutes you gain a +2 item bonus to Will saves, Perception, Medicine, Nature, Religion and Survival checks. A standard bullheaded mutagen grants a +3 item bonus. A greater bullheaded mutagen grants a +4 item bonus. A true bullheaded mutagen grants a +5 item bonus.
Drawback: You take a -1 penalty to Deception, Diplomacy, Intimidation and Performance checks, and lose 1 resonance point, which is recovered when the mutagen expires.
Type lesser; Level 5; Price 20gp
Type standard; Level 9; Price 90gp
Type greater; Level 13; Price 400gp
Type true; Level 17; Price 2,000gp
Activation: Operate Activation; Onset end of your next turn.
The silvertongue mutagen comes in for types, lesser, standard, greater and true. Upon drinking a lesser silvertongue mutagen, your features become fair and your voice musical and commanding, though facts and figures become hazy and your reason takes a backseat to your emotions.
Benefit For 10 minutes you gain a +2 item bonus to Deception, Diplomacy, Intimidation and Performance checks, and you treat all critical failures with those skills as failures. A standard silvertongue mutagen grants a +3 item bonus. A greater silvertongue mutagen grants a +4 item bonus. A true silvertongue mutagen grants a +5 item bonus.
Drawback: You take a -1 penalty to Arcana, Crafting, Lore, Occultism and Society checks, and treat all failures on checks made to Recall Knowledge as critical failures.
Type lesser; Level 5; Price 20gp
Type standard; Level 9; Price 90gp
Type greater; Level 13; Price 400gp
Type true; Level 17; Price 2,000gp
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To give context to the above; I did find it possible to build a more weapons-focused alchemist (think Geralt, from the Witcher series), however I found myself spending most class feats to multiclass into fighter, rather than take the offered class feats.
By the raw numbers, it was simply more efficient to pick up a magic sword and hit people with it than throw bombs, which ultimately wound up feeling more like cantrips in terms of the damage dealt.
9th Level Geralt: +2 master bastard sword +17 (3d12+4) [Average 23.5]
With options to Swipe (2 actions, attack 2 adjacent targets at full bonus), or Furious Focus (not suffer multiple attack penalties on third swing if second misses). Max 3 attacks: +17/+17/+7, +17/+12/+12 or +17/+12/+7, depending on circumstances.
9th Level Bomber: alchemist fire +13/+8 (3d8, 3 persistent fire damage, 7 splash damage) [Average 13.5, plus 3 burning]
With option to draw 2 bombs as an action, then throw each as an action (max 2 attacks), or spend an action on Quick Alchemy to create one bomb and draw another, then throw each as an action (max 2 attacks). Min 1 resonance spent per round.
9th Level Blaster Bard: telekinetic projectile +13 (4d10+4) [average 26]
This takes two actions to cast, but has no resource cost at all.
Let's compare against... say a Roc (Creature 9), whose AC is 25, and touch AC is 23.
Obviously, the circumstances will determine a lot, but the basic premise that an alchemist burning 1 resonance per round to hurl bombs being about as effective as a bard spending no resources and only 2 actions a round casting a cantrip is pretty damning. Nevermind comparing against what an alchemist can do if you just ignore the bombs and hit things with chunks of metal.
** spoiler omitted **
There is an error in my math, largely due to misreading the heightening entry for the cantrips; A 9th level bard would cast telekinetic projectile as a 5th level spell, and thus be dealing merely 2d10+4 damage (average 15).
This also applies to some previous commentary about the utility of cantrips vs weapons.
I did a bit of number crunching, and even if you had infinite bombs (empowered by your class features) you're still way behind in how much damage you can put out. The bombs have lower base damage, never apply a stat to their direct-hit damage and the alchemist has no particularly good way to keep pace on accuracy (as far as I can see, they don't have a way to apply an item bonus to their attack rolls with bombs until 15th level, UNLESS you chain-chug quicksilver mutagens all day long at the cost of all your gold).
I'm baffled as to how Paizo expected this class to function.
I don’t know why more people aren’t looking at the alchemist’s accuracy problem at higher levels.
At the bare minimum, I think the alchemist’s item bonus to bomb accuracy should go up with each increase in the bomb’s damage die.
Actually, I am not sure if “chain chugging” quicksilver mutegins is as hard as you make it out to be Given their 1 hour effect time; you blow 1 or 2 rp on it in the morning and drink it before going into the dungeon or before you go do something that has an off chance of leading to a fight. The main problem with that approach is that you are gonna die from you HP penalty and you have to waste RP resources to maintain a competitive item bonus while you wizard friend buys some fancy gloves to do the same job. (Also, no one bring up those crap goggles; they are only available when you are probably getting an item bonus to your infused bombs anyways and they only give a +2).
At low levels, the alchemist does not have enough resources to be competitive. At high levels, the alchemist does not have the accuracy (and potentially even raw damage comparited to spells) to be competitive.
** spoiler omitted **There is an error in my math, largely due to misreading the heightening entry for the cantrips; A 9th level bard would cast telekinetic projectile as a 5th level spell, and thus be dealing merely 2d10+4 damage (average 15).
This also applies to some previous commentary about the utility of cantrips vs weapons.
This is a little off topic, but doesn’t the Bard have better proficiency bonuses for spell attacks at higher level? That may make up for deficiencies in raw damage. I could also see a bard blowing a lot of money on a good rapier but using telekinetic projectile and non-cantrip spells for their ranged needs.
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I did a bit of number crunching, and even if you had infinite bombs (empowered by your class features) you're still way behind in how much damage you can put out. The bombs have lower base damage, never apply a stat to their direct-hit damage and the alchemist has no particularly good way to keep pace on accuracy (as far as I can see, they don't have a way to apply an item bonus to their attack rolls with bombs until 15th level, UNLESS you chain-chug quicksilver mutagens all day long at the cost of all your gold).
I'm baffled as to how Paizo expected this class to function.
I don’t know why more people aren’t looking at the alchemist’s accuracy problem at higher levels.
At the bare minimum, I think the alchemist’s item bonus to bomb accuracy should go up with each increase in the bomb’s damage die.
Actually, I am not sure if “chain chugging” quicksilver mutegins is as hard as you make it out to be Given their 1 hour effect time; you blow 1 or 2 rp on it in the morning and drink it before going into the dungeon or before you go do something that has an off chance of leading to a fight. The main problem with that approach is that you are gonna die from you HP penalty and you have to waste RP resources to maintain a competitive item bonus while you wizard friend buys some fancy gloves to do the same job. (Also, no one bring up those crap goggles; they are only available when you are probably getting an item bonus to your infused bombs anyways and they only give a +2).
At low levels, the alchemist does not have enough resources to be competitive. At high levels, the alchemist does not have the accuracy (and potentially even raw damage comparited to spells) to be competitive.
Actually I brought this up... somewhere? Here or another alchemist topic. They start to blur together.
But from what I'm seeing the other Martial classes tend to get ways of lowering the Negatives to attacking more than once or can boost themselves depending on the class. Alchemist has no way of doing this within their class. They either need Quicksilver(Hahahah), or to get a target to be Flatfooted with a bomb. First that's just a flat -2 so that's not TOO much of a loss compared to PF1's Touch. And 2, That requires us to hit in the first place.
Not even Debilitating Bomb helps us! It grants Flat foot to bombs but so does Bottle Lightning. Worse, the upgraded version gives us Sluggish, which is a board Debuff to a lot of things... but only by 1 point.
So if you get your target to suffer Sluggish AND Flatfooted(Possibly two turns, maybe more if you miss), you have lowered the AC by 3 points.
Oh wow. Christmas came early this year.
"But Merlin! That's -3 AC against all attacks! That's great for the party!"
Yeah. But I'm seeing a good number of ways to inflict Flatfooted anyway from other classes so they can slap -2 AC easily enough.
This is a little off topic, but doesn’t the Bard have better proficiency bonuses for spell attacks at higher level? That may make up for deficiencies in raw damage. I could also see a bard blowing a lot of money on a good rapier but using telekinetic projectile and non-cantrip spells for their ranged needs.
Expert spellcasting (+1) at 12th
Master spellcasting (+2) at 16thLegendary spellcasting (+3) at 19th
To put things in perspective;
At 12th level your two lowest 'expected' items are 8th level, equating to +2 weapon runes (or armor, which is 7th). At that level your bard's cantrip (which targets regular AC) will be around +18 (2d10+5, average 16), with a 30ft range and requires two actions to cast. Their +2 rapier or shortbow is around +19 (3d6+2 ish, average 13), as a single action... without requiring much investment on their part, and in the case of the bow, having a better range to boot.
At 16th level your lowest two expected items are 12th level - i.e. +3 weapon runes. At this point your cantrip is +23 (3d10+5, average 21.5), with all the same caveats. Your rapier/bow is around +24 (4d6+2, average 16), with the same caveats again.
At 19th level you should be rocking a +4 weapon. The cantrip now will be +27 (4d10+5, average 27) for 2 actions. The rapier/bow would be around +28 (5d6+2, average 19.5) for 1 action.
Roughly speaking, without investing in Strength or multiclassing Fighter, the rapier/bow option is about 75% of the damage of the cantrip, but requiring only a single action per attack (and with actual range on the bow). Putting more points into Strength and/or some martial archetype class feats, and weapon properties like flaming and even a single hit from a weapon will overtake the cantrip with ease, and the combined effect of up to three attacks (albeit at decreasing accuracy) will eclipse the effectiveness of the cantrip even more than they already do.
But we're seriously digressing here...
This is a little off topic, but doesn’t the Bard have better proficiency bonuses for spell attacks at higher level? That may make up for deficiencies in raw damage. I could also see a bard blowing a lot of money on a good rapier but using telekinetic projectile and non-cantrip spells for their ranged needs.Expert spellcasting (+1) at 12th
Master spellcasting (+2) at 16th
Legendary spellcasting (+3) at 19thTo put things in perspective;
At 12th level your two lowest 'expected' items are 8th level, equating to +2 weapon runes (or armor, which is 7th). At that level your bard's cantrip (which targets regular AC) will be around +18 (2d10+5, average 16), with a 30ft range and requires two actions to cast. Their +2 rapier or shortbow is around +19 (3d6+2 ish, average 13), as a single action... without requiring much investment on their part, and in the case of the bow, having a better range to boot.At 16th level your lowest two expected items are 12th level - i.e. +3 weapon runes. At this point your cantrip is +23 (3d10+5, average 21.5), with all the same caveats. Your rapier/bow is around +24 (4d6+2, average 16), with the same caveats again.
At 19th level you should be rocking a +4 weapon. The cantrip now will be +27 (4d10+5, average 27) for 2 actions. The rapier/bow would be around +28 (5d6+2, average 19.5) for 1 action.
Roughly speaking, without investing in Strength or multiclassing Fighter, the rapier/bow option is about 75% of the damage of the cantrip, but requiring only a single action per attack (and with actual range on the bow). Putting more points into Strength and/or some martial archetype class feats, and weapon properties like flaming and even a single hit from a weapon will overtake the cantrip with ease, and the combined effect of up to three attacks (albeit at decreasing accuracy) will eclipse the effectiveness of the cantrip even more than they already do.
But we're seriously digressing here...
I think you are omitting the accuracy bonuses from Spell Duelist equipment (wands and/or gloves) that I was including in my head. That said, now that I look closer at the Bard's spell list, there are maybe not enough ranged touch spells there to justify the spell duelist wand. There are plenty of melee touch spells to justify the gloves though.
Okay not sure why any of that was in an Alchemist thread, but how does that compare to say an Alchemist throwing a Bomb? They count as Trained so +0, can get a +2 item bonus at 19th level. So +21 (6d8 Fire ) for Alchemist's Fire? And this isn't a Weapon Attack or Cantrip that was at will. It is usable a bit over 20 times per day if you make all your bombs in the morning, less otherwise or if you use them for anything else at all or have magic items.
So they can use it, for fairly close to cantrip damage, about as often as a Spellcaster can cast actual spells.
Okay not sure why any of that was in an Alchemist thread, but how does that compare to say an Alchemist throwing a Bomb? They count as Trained so +0, can get a +2 item bonus at 19th level. So +21 (6d8 Fire ) for Alchemist's Fire? And this isn't a Weapon Attack or Cantrip that was at will. It is usable a bit over 20 times per day if you make all your bombs in the morning, less otherwise or if you use them for anything else at all or have magic items.
So they can use it, for fairly close to cantrip damage, about as often as a Spellcaster can cast actual spells.
We both noted that it was off-topic. But as you have noticed, it does tie into the conversation about how far behind alchemists are in accuracy:
At high levels, spellcasters who also target touch AC have +1/+2/+3 proficiency bonus to their spell attacks while the alchemist languishes at +0. Moreover, the spellcaster has a +3/+4 item bonus from their spell duelist gear whereas the alchemist only recieves between a +0 and +2 item bonus for their ranged attacks.
So in general, even if alchemist bombs do more damage than a spellcaster using a cantrip, they actually hit much less often (sitting behind spellcasters by between a +2 and a +5!). It is rough stuff.
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An alchemist can boost their item bonus to-hit with mutagens, but doing so would override (not stack) the to hit bonus from Empowered Alchemy, as they are both item bonuses. And that's not considering the drawbacks, which can be pretty rough. I've already brought up my desire for increased proficiency for the alchemist in previous posts (at least to Master in the late game), but I feel it bears repeating.
Bombs doing relevant damage to a cantrip is also very unappealing to play. Late-game alchemist bombs should be a terrifying prospect! After the initial blog post in April, I was expecting there to be a d10 bomb damage option(scaling to 6d10, or 33 average damage before other bonuses/feats/etc.), but the best option is either d8 with Alchemist Fire or the persistent burn from Acid Flasks.
If I'm spending resources to create my single use thrown weapon, I expect it to do at least as much damage as what a fighter can put out. If an alchemist's bombs are competing with cantrips, something is wrong.
I'd also like to see more bomb and general formula options. Bombs with no splash damage but stronger target damage (~d10), bombs with different utility effects on a successful hit, etc. More Elixirs to allow the alchemist to create more buffs for their allies.
The alchemist’s sticky bombs might make them good choices against boss monsters but they will still be spending most of their turns missing bomb attacks by then, it seems.
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Having looked over the alchemist scaling/resource management issues and having had a chance to play one I think the alchemist problem has to do with a lack of defined concept.
Is the alchemist a martial class with some alchemical utility?
Is the alchemist class a caster class with some bomb damage ability?
Until we know what they intended it is very difficult to decide how to judge the class. Right now it looks like they tried to make a hybrid and missed the mark completely.
They lack the consistent damage of the martial classes.
They lack the high level but resource constrained damage potential of the casters.
I suggest if they are going for a hybrid then they need to look at what at least casters can do consistently and do it better (alchemists should have cantrip like attacks that do more damage than cantrips but less than martials) and spells that both buff this damage capacity and provide the healing/buffing/debuffing utility but are resource constrained.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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With today's blog suggesting resonance will be re-designed or replaced entirely, I hope that studied resonance goes away as well. Alchemists need magic items like everyone else, and should have a class pool/spell points or whatever for their alchemical abilities, like other classes do for their class abilities.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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A minor issue with mutagen crafting - since this is worded “when you gain a new level and add new formulas to your book…” this suggests that you can’t actually do this at 5th level. Wording should be tightened up to indicate “at 5th level, and whenever you gain a new level….”
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With today's blog suggesting resonance will be re-designed or replaced entirely, I hope that studied resonance goes away as well. Alchemists need magic items like everyone else, and should have a class pool/spell points or whatever for their alchemical abilities, like other classes do for their class abilities.
I'd look at the cleric.
ClericAlchemist
channel energy Studied Resonance + daily preparations
Uses: 3 plus your CharismaInt modifier
Healing Font Quick Alchemy as spell point ability
So 3+int uses prepared at the start of the day and int uses of Quick Alchemy. IMO, this would go a long way to making them not suck.
This might be an odd place to ask this but, do alchemists have any way of damaging incorporeal creatures? Bombs are nonmagical, they can't apply ghost touch, or even make their bomba magical, so ghosts and the like are 100% immune.
LOL They buy a weapon, ghost touch it and swing it at the creatures... Honestly, I think they are better off doing that and making healing items than making bombs.