*Hides under a table...wait...*
Dammit! Now the table is hiding under the table? I keep saying bestow recurse is game-breaking!
Who wins in a fight? A sword with gunslinger levels or a gun with swashbuckler levels?
In Ice Fantasy, Li Luo has a knife with a pistol grip handle that shoots tiny knives.
It is glorious.
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what about a gun that shoots a sword, which explodes, to produce three more swords, that also explode.
Who wins in a fight? A sword with gunslinger levels or a gun with swashbuckler levels?
They would fight at first, but then join forces when the Earth is attacked by dogs with bees in their mouth and when they bark they shoot bees at you.
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what about a gun that shoots a sword, which explodes, to produce three more swords, that also explode.
I think they saved that for the sequel.
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I think people who hate swashbucklers just haven’t played one properly. When power attacking you will have more DPR than a two-hander. If you’re worried about saves its nothing a two level dip into paladin can’t fix.
Also, if you’re worried about your will saves just save your immediate action for charmed life. All your missing out on is a ripiste that turn. It’s really about managing your awift actions which adds some interestong tactical choices right from the get go.
Yes the daring champion and paladin archetype (the paladin one isnt pfs legal) are good, I think the swashbuckler training is still enticing enough to go mostly swash.
Those complaining about it being “too focused in killing things and social stuff”... that’s exactly what an optimized character does. The key to a well built character is focusing on one in combat role and one non-combat role.
Also, the threat of parry and riposte often means GMs will metagame and stop attacking you... which is great for you because you’ll often have the highest DPR and just keep slashing or poking away.
I do agree that it lends itself to one build (in some ways it should have been a very in-depth Fighter archtype IMO), however I think Kaisc is right. For those who doubted at the top...I posted this yesterday and this is post 58...
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Gip have to point out the most gentlemanly of weapons -the morningstar- am made all the better as a swashbuckler.
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I think the problem is that they took Parry/Riposte away from the other classes. When Swash first came out, other classes got archetypes that got some swash abilities, including the option to get parry/riposte - arguably their strongest ability. Shortly afterwards errata came out that let those archetypes grant everything BUT P/R - so if you wanted P/R it forced you to take a 1-level dip in Swash before carrying on with your normal class. This led to a lot more dips, and when people see you with dips they start forming bad opinions.
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I dunno, they have their place. I really like the ability to impose conditions at no save at 7th level through Targeted Strike: prone, disarm, confused, staggered aren't bad choices. And they set up the critical fishing of a Critical Focus Swashbuckler at higher levels. That's not bad in a humanoid-focused AP like Hell's Rebels, Ironfang Invasion, Kingmaker, Crimson Throne, and probably the upcoming War for the Crown.
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Ok, they have their own pseudo pounce at least. I never really got what they....did, melee wise.
This is clearly true.
The lethal grace is one of those terrible ones where you have to split between two stats- you have use dex for attack but str for damage. And it only gets 1/2 your level in scaling damage. It gets better if you also get the similarly scaling unarmed talent... but then you have to deal with unarmed (bleh). on top of that, it doesn't really have attack roll boosters (so it hits like an inquisitor, or a bard, rather than a full martial).
That depends on what other Talents you get and whether you're doing PFS. Take Em Alive adds what amounts to Studied Target as long as you're dealing non-lethal and removes penalties to dealing non-lethal (but is unavailable in PFS). That can be +3 to hit, +8 damage total from the two Talents by 10th, while the Swashbuckler makes out at +2 to hit, +12 damage, with 10 of that Precision damage and thus not doubled on a crit (which are common).
Even in PFS though, half your level as a non-precision damage bonus is quite nice, and can be combined with TWF, something that radically increases damage output and Swashbucklers tend to be unable to do. Unlike Swashbuckler's, Vigilantes aren't stuck in a particular suboptimal fighting style.
But really, the Swashbuckler's offensive output is probably gonna be better than a Vigilante's. The issue is that it's not enough better to make up for the skill and defensive advantages the Vigilante possesses.
So i get it has stuff... but it still comes off to me like it is 'a less terrible rogue' since it is so skill focused.
Stalker is indeed a better Rogue in many ways. Avenger is Full BAB and does something a bit different.
Right, precise strike is precision damage. Which means it just isn't going to work against some enemy types.
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The Swashbuckler is definitely a better pure damage dealer in the Swashbuckler's niche (i.e. one handed high-crit range weapon with light armor and an open hand). Any class trying to compete doing exactly what the Swashbuckler does is going to lose.
The Vigilante though, is simply a better chassis for the narrative role of the Swashbuckler- a daring, charismatic, mobile, socially adept frontliner. You have more skills and better saves (and a whole lot of class features for noncombat stuff), and you can combine finesse fighting with TWF, medium (or even eventually heavy) armor, and can effectively make use of any viable weapons rather than just high crit range piercing/slashing weapons.
If I have one main complaint about the Swashbuckler, honestly, it's that the fiction of the class should suggest someone who moves around a lot, but the mechanics of the class make you want to stand in one place and full attack.
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If I have one main complaint about the Swashbuckler, honestly, it's that the fiction of the class should suggest someone who moves around a lot, but the mechanics of the class make you want to stand in one place and full attack.
This is definitely a valid complaint. Some way to chain attacks with movement, similar to the dervish dance archetype for the main class, would’ve been fantastic. Or a way to spend a a panache to move your speed while full attacking but you provoke as normal.
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A lot of us are still salty that the Swashbuckler ended up weaker than most of the Swashbuckler-oriented archetypes for other classes, which were then promptly nerfed rather than making the Swashbuckler better. Also the Swift Action bottleneck was pointed out during playtesting and we were basically told "it's a feature".
It also got roped into a lot of the Slashing Grace / Fencing Grace drama, and the fact that at release the Swashbuckler could neither use a buckler with its class features, nor a rapier with Slashing Grace. In fact it was better to have a Swashbuckler use a battleaxe than a rapier at that time, so it ended up being the poster boy (fairly or not) of the Advanced Class Guide being rushed and poorly edited.
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Vigilante far outshines them at their intended niche (agile charismatic high skills front liner) if you take even the most basic effort to build for it.I never really dug into vigilante. I get that it has a ton of skill stuff, but what does it really have going on for 'agile' and 'frontliner'.Vigilantes get the Lethal Grace talent, which gives them a scaling bonus to damage rolls that use Dexterity, and Avenger Vigilantes get mad rush, which makes them better at frontlining than Swashbucklers are.
Also, they have good Will saves, which means they aren't as likely to flip out and attempt to murder their friends as Swashbucklers are.
Ok, they have their own pseudo pounce at least. I never really got what they....did, melee wise.
The lethal grace is one of those terrible ones where you have to split between two stats- you have use dex for attack but str for damage. And it only gets 1/2 your level in scaling damage. It gets better if you also get the similarly scaling unarmed talent... but then you have to deal with unarmed (bleh). on top of that, it doesn't really have attack roll boosters (so it hits like an inquisitor, or a bard, rather than a full martial).
So i get it has stuff... but it still comes off to me like it is 'a less terrible rogue' since it is so skill focused.
Lethal grace isn't terrible; if you're keeping strength at 10, and your dex starts at +4 (probably optimal stats for a swashbuckler normally), you can spend 2 more points on strength to get it to +1 damage. That means by level 6, you're equal - admittedly likely a +6 dex now, so it's likely level 8 you're actually equal, and then level 10 onwards it's better to use Lethal Grace than dex to damage. It also allows you to have a parrying dagger or something similarly thematically appropriate for a swashbuckler in ones off-hand, and TWF much more effectively. Lethal grace is a bit of a pain for low level, but by mid levels it's at worst as good as an agile weapon/other source of dex to damage.
Shield of Blades gives you a nice AC boost, too - helps in frontlining. At level 8 you'd be at something like 10 base + 6 armour + 6 dex + 1 natural + 1 deflection + 3 shield -> AC 27 without anything weird, nearly 20+level, the goal for a good frontliner.
It's also full-BAB, so needs attack boosters less. A vigilante talent
gives you free Weapon Focus, and you can pick up the feinting vigilante talent if you like, helps with your to-hit. My vigilante at level 9 spends most boss fights at +9 bab + 6 dex + 1 weapon focus + 1 weapon + 1 haste + 2 legacy weapon for +20(multishot)/+20/+20/+15, which is pretty solid for level 9!
Swashbucklers are a fun class to play, yeah they might not hit as hard as a barbarian, but the deeds give you a lot battle options. though i'll admit i would like some fixes to the class to make it perform a little better and fix the following issues.
1) poor reflex and will saves (even though both fighter and gunslinger have good fort saves)
2) many options competing for your swift action (parry/riposte,menacing strike,charmed life,Etc)
3) you really don't have customizing features (all builds look similar)
what i hope for in the future is some kind of fix or unchained version of the class with the following.
1) automatic dex to damage at lv 3...heck make it at lv 5 like a gunslinger if need be.
2) some fixes to the swashbuckler's action economy, make charmed life a free action with 1-2 uses per day that gains an additional use every 4-5 lvs
3) just give it a good fort or will save. i honestly think they should get a good will save because usually they are flamboyant/witty/clever/brooding swordsman with big personalities.
4) instead of getting a group of deeds at set lvs, have them pick from an expanded list of deeds. and gain them like spells (new one every lv) or gain one every even or odd lv like a rogue talent (make a new feat called extra deed to gain more) that way no two swashbucklers are the same. ooohh the deeds would also need to be even mix between combat/skill/social abilities.
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Swashbucklers are one of the best class to dip into.
We have 1 player in my local PFS group that only makes dex based characters and takes a level or more of SB for every character he makes.
When he is at the table, you can certain combat will be a walkover.
The swashbuckler is only balanced if it is the solo class on a character. Otherwise, it makes for the perfect dip for any character to go from average to all powerful.
Especially if you make Dex focused characters.
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Aren't PFS scenarios kinda notorious for being weak though?
I think if you give the swashbuckler an extra swift action or 2 it fixes most of the classes problems. or just make some of the reactionary powers free actions.
{. . .}
*Charisma is still a dump stat, since your Panache pool is minimum 1 regardless, meaning you may be better off with Cha 7 and the Extra Panache feat.
{. . .}
I'll give it credit for bypassing the Int requirement of Combat Expertise, but it still relies on Charisma. See above.
On the other hand, if you need a really high Charisma for some other reason, like for instance you are just dipping and your main class is Oracle, then you get more Panache than Extra Panache will give you, unless you get several ranks of it.
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Aren't PFS scenarios kinda notorious for being weak though?
Depends on the year, depends on the GM, depends on the players, depends on party composition. Home games are typically well-oiled machines in which every PC is very familiar with what they others can do, and how the GM adjudicates. PFS tables are a train-wreck in a zombie apocalypse where you don't know who's in the seat in next to you.
...you'll be breezing along on autopilot as Ser Mutoid McClane thinking it's a total cakewalk, and all of a sudden a flying breath-weapon monster starts slagging the party while they're clamoring along a ledge, and you realize there's not a professional archer at the table and nobody's playing a blaster because oh-they-suck-compared-to-summoning-hordes-of-angels-but-oh-crap-it's-a-full -round-before-I-can-get-'em-to-show-up-and-*piss*-I-only-got-*1*-one-of-'em !
Barely surviving that debacle, you then have to get on a ship, and you know you're screwed now. All the remains to be determined is which poor sod is the one yanked over the side into the briny deep with "nonrecoverable" body loss.
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Accusations of "hate" are thrown around way too easily these days...
People love swashbucklers! It's an extremely popular character concept! What they dislike are the mechanical features of the Swashbuckler class.
Acknowledging that something is ineffective and/or poorly designed isn't "hate". It's just accepting reality.
Swashbucklers have bad saving throws, bad action economy, bad mobility, little out-of-combat utility and almost no build variety. They completely fail to live up to their class description and offer little to no incentive for players to take more than 1~5 levels in the class.
Of course, when you ignore 90% of all feedback, it's no surprise that the end product is disappointing. Paizo wasted an amazing opportunity with Swashbuckler design... So now we have a 5 level class.
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Accusations of "hate" are thrown around way too easily these days...
People love swashbucklers! It's an extremely popular character concept! What they dislike are the mechanical features of the Swashbuckler class.
Acknowledging that something is ineffective and/or poorly designed isn't "hate". It's just accepting reality.
Swashbucklers have bad saving throws, bad action economy, bad mobility, little out-of-combat utility and almost no build variety. They completely fail to live up to their class description and offer little to no incentive for players to take more than 1~5 levels in the class.
Of course, when you ignore 90% of all feedback, it's no surprise that the end product is disappointing. Paizo wasted an amazing opportunity with Swashbuckler design... So now we have a 5 level class.
I agree with Tabernero that my feelings toward the Swashbuckler class is not hate; rather, it is apathy. A class that would have let players play a character modeled on Errol Flynn movies would have been exciting. The Swashbuckler class looks like a Gunslinger who swapped his gun for a sword. The Panache pool lacks panache.
I have not tried a Swashbuckler character, so I am not an expert. I have created Bloodrager and Brawler NPCs, and my players have played an Arcanist, Investigator, Skald, and Slayer. Swashbuckler ended up last in the list of hybrid classes we want to try. So I will rely on Tabernero's list: "bad saving throws, bad action economy, bad mobility, little out-of-combat utility and almost no build variety." That is not what I see in movie swashbucklers. I want high Fortitude to shrug off a poisoned blade, I want fancy footwork thrown in with attacks (deeds such as dodging panache and kip-up are good tries at this, but the panache pool and swift actions anchor dashing deeds with leaden limits), I want swinging from chandeliers for mobility, I want helping the pretty widow with her household chores, and I want heartfelt personality reflected in unique builds. Then I would be interested in a swashbuckler.
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I'll tell you why my DM and I hate them. They come off as extremely whimsical prettyboy characters. The verbiage that surrounds the class bothers us a lot, as terms like panache and derring-do sound to our ears extremely Disney or fairy tale. The charisma based abilities reinforce the idea that everybody loves the swashbuckler, which only fuels my hate.
I have no problem with dex based martial characters, party faces or dex based martial party faces, but there's just something for me about the class that seems inefibly lame and weak. This is not a fact based off mountains of evidence merely a personal impression I can't seem to shake.
Just remember that there are people in this hobby who prefer gritty settings. They're not going to want to invite Peter Pan or Jack Sparrow on their ship with Caligula and Gregor Clegaine. And it's a two way street, I wouldn't expect one of my murderous sociopath characters to be accepted in a group that was into a high magic furry setting.
Maybe you can tell me my complaints all pertain to the names of abilities and I can just reflavor everything. 100% true, but at a casual glance I don't see what this class offers that a charismatic dex fighter can't do at least as well.
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They're not going to want to invite Peter Pan or Jack Sparrow on their ship with Caligula and Gregor Clegaine.
How about if you think of it as pre-faceless Arya (Swashbuckler) and The Hound (Slayer or other gritty PC class of your choice) hanging out together?
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I will admit I feel that most classes should really be archetypes (Sorcerers are wizards, etc...)So to some extend agree that Swashbucklers should have been an AT on Fighters more than their own class.
I think their is a major middle ground between Disney's Peter Pan and Game of Thrones...For instance the Three Musketeers (avoid any version done after 1980)
I want heartfelt personality reflected in unique builds....
Gip, gentlegoblin adventurer, would like to point out his weapon of choice -Morningstar- is the of weapons. Also, no matter what, you hit Gip he always bounce back to politely kneecap you.
I want heartfelt personality reflected in unique builds....Gip, gentlegoblin adventurer, would like to point out his weapon of choice -Morningstar- is the of weapons. Also, no matter what, you hit Gip he always bounce back to politely kneecap you.
That's one unique personality.
The basic chasis could use good Fort saves and/or some kind of "each x levels choose a skill and add a bonus".
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Don't want to derail, but real quick:
Lethal grace isn't terrible...Shield of Blades gives you a nice AC boost, too.
You can only use one or the other. Lethal grace requires using dex to attack, and shield of blades requires using strength to attack.
As for the limited use per day, that was really a fighter thing. Even in the core rulebook full BAB classes have limited use abilities. You have rage, lay on hands, smite evil and ki points. Cavaliers have tactician and challenge. I guess gunslinger does have the variable point system going, so the two parent classes don't exactly function that way. But it's not the only hybrid class that doesn't work exactly like it's parent class. And limited use abilities are nothing new for the full BAB classes.
Can someone clarify which abilities the Swashbuckler uses that require swift actions? The action economy argument seems important, but it's not being explained well in this thread, and I'm a little confused as to which deeds and abilities require a swift and which don't.
I'm another one on the "Vigilante is buckler+" camp, and the reason I say plus is because you can also do other things with the class kit. Do not get me wrong, the Swash has a few very strong abilities and the class is a beautiful dip...but I would much rather play a Vigilante than a Swash.
If I plan on going Dex, Lethal Grace is beautiful. The Viglante has some amazing Dirty Trick options, including Turnabout and Expose Weakness which no other class has access. You have access to whole feat chains, are not limited by Swift Actions, have good Fort and Will saves, oh and have a whole slew of abilities that make you an excellent face for the party, and you are not limited to just dealing piercing damage. Not only that, but the base Vigilante can Swashbuckle either as a gritty Avenger or a more cunning Stalker which alters his playstyle drastically.
Compare all of the options that allow for a skillful martial that the Vigilante has access to, and the options the swashbuckler has, and you will see that the Vigilante comes out on top.
Can someone clarify which abilities the Swashbuckler uses that require swift actions? The action economy argument seems important, but it's not being explained well in this thread, and I'm a little confused as to which deeds and abilities require a swift and which don't.
The big ones are the riposte part of 'opportune parry and riposte', charmed life and menacing swordplay.
There's others (dodging panache, one of the uses of kip-up, part of precise strike, dizzying defence, and if you get into feinting which is appropriate if not actually useful then there may be another draw on your swift actions) but those three are the important ones.
Can someone clarify which abilities the Swashbuckler uses that require swift actions? The action economy argument seems important, but it's not being explained well in this thread, and I'm a little confused as to which deeds and abilities require a swift and which don't.
immediate action uses next rounds swift so:
Opportune Parry and RiposteKip-Up
Menacing Swordplay
Precise Strike
Dizzying Defense
Dodging Panache
Charmed Life
I think people who don't like Charmed Life are people who regularly have characters need to make more than 5 successful saving throws in an adventuring day.
If Charmed Life just cost Panache instead of having a really limited pool so they have something to give Swashbucklers beyond deeds, feats, and incrementing nimble it would be so much better.
Yeah I think it would only take some minor tweeks to make it significantly better.
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I've played a swashbuckler across multiple levels.
It's rare that I need to worry about saves at the same time as ripostes.
If I'm fighting a monster that has a save rider on its attack I'm going to be parrying it.
If I'm fighting a spellcaster then I'm using Charmed Life.
If I come across a trap: Charmed life.
If there's a breath weapon: I have good Reflex anyway.
Against touch attacks: Parry, riposte.
The Swashbuckler actually needs the weakness to saves, because a swashbuckler with parries and ripostes has great hp and rarely ever gets hit.
I love playing a swashbuckler, it punishes literally every creature that comes into melee range. People's fears over its weaknesses are overstated, and rarely a result of actually playing the class.
I've played a swashbuckler across multiple levels.
Played up to lvl 6 in society; low rolling initiative is the biggest weakness so far, flat footed AC, no charmed life, no parry riposte. Very rare that the swashbuckler goes after the enemy, but has been bad every time.
On that note, can you use charmed life against a trap (being flat-footed, no immediate actions while flat footed).
that note, can you use charmed life against a trap (being flat-footed, no immediate actions while flat footed).
Or surprise rounds...
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I do not understand the dislike for the class...
I read comments like "One level of SB, 19 levels of anything else" or "Take 5 levels of SB and ditch it". I do not see why the dislike, compared to other martials, can someone Please explain this to me. It seems like the precision damage alone is a worthy bonus. I admit that I dislike the "charmed Life" ability, but I see a lot of decent to good abilities.
Maybe my issue is that I look at fighters as the "Base line" Martial class, and feel that Swashes are at least as good...
As a GM having only run a few scenarios in PFS with them, they slow the game down entirely too much with their counter abilities. I've seen other GM's simply not target them to make the combats run smoother.