Why do people hate Swashbucklers


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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It might be funny...but I play my swashie as a gunslinger...
I play one of my swashbucklers as a Clint Eastwood type. Poncho, hat, bandolero...

"Was that 9 panache or only 8...I have to admit in all this excitement I lost count...you gotta ask yourself one question..."

:P

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Removed a post and replies. "Nancy" and "ponce" as descriptive terms are derogatory and offensive which breaks our community guidelines.

Shadow Lodge

I thought it was just that people turned to blame the martial when they found out that nobody in their team has the STR to push the boulder or open the stuck door or have a carrying capacity when nobody has any bags of holding?

But while I do agree about some of the proposed house rules (maybe allowing Derring-do to regain panache when you roll a 6, like with investigators), I can get reasons for and against it. It is a pretty front-loaded class, but personally, the reason I made a swashvestigator is because I wanted both classes' pools to stack. Inspired Sleuth!

...also, I now want to try a swashbuckler whose weapon of choice is a cestus.


Cestus, Punching Dagger... I even had an idea for an Orc using the axe gun(I forget the name) with Slashing Grace.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I have a character in an on-going adventure path that operates on a 'range-bracket' paradigm.

Glaive

Wakizashi

Cestus (Because getting disarmed sucks for a swashbuckler)

Nat. Weapon: Beak


Our kingmaker party had a swashbuckler and everyone hated him. Not because he sucked, he was actually the second frontliner next to a ranger, but because he was a selfish douchebag that demanded to be king or he'd leave. He left


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So it wasn't so much the fact that they were a swashbuckler, as an unmitigated hygiene product?


But the swashbuckling part did well, right?


Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


So it wasn't so much the fact that they were a swashbuckler, as an unmitigated hygiene product?

There's something to be said for some combinations of mechanics (e.g. class, alignment, etc.) and people are toxic when those people would be okay with a different combination.

So there might be something to be said for the Swashbuckler encourages players to play it as "the most awesomest best-loved person around" despite their selfishness, and some players have not yet learned to "read the room" to figure out when that's not working.

But that's not really any more a problem with the Swashbuckler than it is with the Chaotic Neutral alignment existing.


Or like.. wizards past 6th level

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Cavall wrote:
Or like.. wizards past 6th level

Phew, my wizard is still 6th level.


Cavall wrote:
But the swashbuckling part did well, right?

It was actually quite good. He took fencing grace and did lots of parry riposting. That didnt do much to BBEG but the mooks got wrecked.


People hate swashbucklers?


Zhayne wrote:
People hate swashbucklers?

I think if you polled people on here, you would get a large number singling out the Swashbuckler (or its gunslinger parent class) as one of if not the weakest full BAB class.

You might get similar results if you asked people what martial classes they found most interesting to play.


I mean, to a degree I hate that they aren't a bit more powerful. I hate that you get the best part of them in the first 5 levels and after that their class abilities are kind of mediocre.


Zhayne wrote:
People hate swashbucklers?

As a full 20 level class. They make wonderful 1-5 level dips. For a LOT of people, it's a non-prestige class you take before you go into your REAL class.


Thunderlord wrote:
Cavall wrote:
But the swashbuckling part did well, right?
It was actually quite good. He took fencing grace and did lots of parry riposting. That didnt do much to BBEG but the mooks got wrecked.

You may have hit upon something there. Probably the most signature power move of the class, Parry and Riposte, has a nasty tendency not to work in tough encounters. Looking at Pathfinder AP #39, City of Seven Spears, (and assuming Valeros's to hit makes a reasonable swashbuckler equivalent), the full bab type has a +12 to hit. Looking at some encounters, D1, has a +16 to hit. F4 has a +14 to hit. K2 a +20. L4 a +18. Some of them give the parry size penalties as well...


Do you have a better adventure to look at for comparison.


pad300 wrote:
Thunderlord wrote:
Cavall wrote:
But the swashbuckling part did well, right?
It was actually quite good. He took fencing grace and did lots of parry riposting. That didnt do much to BBEG but the mooks got wrecked.
You may have hit upon something there. Probably the most signature power move of the class, Parry and Riposte, has a nasty tendency not to work in tough encounters. Looking at Pathfinder AP #39, City of Seven Spears, (and assuming Valeros's to hit makes a reasonable swashbuckler equivalent), the full bab type has a +12 to hit. Looking at some encounters, D1, has a +16 to hit. F4 has a +14 to hit. K2 a +20. L4 a +18. Some of them give the parry size penalties as well...

Sufficient min-maxing (e.g. a focused swashigator) can overcome this - but that does involve dropping out of swash early.


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avr wrote:
pad300 wrote:
Thunderlord wrote:
Cavall wrote:
But the swashbuckling part did well, right?
It was actually quite good. He took fencing grace and did lots of parry riposting. That didnt do much to BBEG but the mooks got wrecked.
You may have hit upon something there. Probably the most signature power move of the class, Parry and Riposte, has a nasty tendency not to work in tough encounters. Looking at Pathfinder AP #39, City of Seven Spears, (and assuming Valeros's to hit makes a reasonable swashbuckler equivalent), the full bab type has a +12 to hit. Looking at some encounters, D1, has a +16 to hit. F4 has a +14 to hit. K2 a +20. L4 a +18. Some of them give the parry size penalties as well...
Sufficient min-maxing (e.g. a focused swashigator) can overcome this - but that does involve dropping out of swash early.

Swashgator?


Ok how about this. I ran the final boss of skull and shackles ap.

Disarmed with no save or roll.

It's easy to damage someone that doesn't have a way to fight back. Even easier to parry them.

I actually covered the carpet with gold for a difficult terrain and added his lover to the fight. He still made it about 4 rounds total and once she reached him it was over.


graystone wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
People hate swashbucklers?
As a full 20 level class. They make wonderful 1-5 level dips. For a LOT of people, it's a non-prestige class you take before you go into your REAL class.

Speaking of which, what about Swashbuckler 6/Duelist 10 (or Swashbuckler 5/{Something Else} 1/Duelist 10)? The Parry is moderately redundant with Opportune Parry and Riposte, but on the other hand, it gives you a backup option if you run out of Panache.


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Cavall wrote:

Ok how about this. I ran the final boss of skull and shackles ap.

Disarmed with no save or roll.

It's easy to damage someone that doesn't have a way to fight back. Even easier to parry them.

I actually covered the carpet with gold for a difficult terrain and added his lover to the fight. He still made it about 4 rounds total and once she reached him it was over.

Well, that's clearly not possible. Targeted Strike still has a roll involved, it's not just "I spend one panache and now your weapon is lying on the ground."

You still have to hit the guy with your attack, so it's more that the Swash's disarms/trips also do damage if he spends a panache and does his disarm as a full-round action instead of full-attacking. And it doesn't work if the target has a way to resist sneak attacks.

Targeted strike is a pretty decent deed, but it's not a foolproof auto-success. It's a lot better on the Flying Blade, who doesn't have to close with the enemy and possibly eat a full attack before he can do it, I'd say.


Well, yes. Clearly they roll to hit. Vs A.C.. there's no counter roll or save is what I meant.

I think it's clear by the time of the last battle of an AP I know how a level 7 ability works.

But I don't think the class with the parry ability worried much about full attacks. Of anything she'd rather eat it then worry about him going ranged.

But taking a swing doing damage and saying "oh and you're boned now" is incredible. Way better than a 5 level dip.

Tripping a 60 legged animal because you hit it's normal a.c. rather than a 90 cmd is insane.


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Tabernero wrote:
avr wrote:
pad300 wrote:
Thunderlord wrote:
Cavall wrote:
But the swashbuckling part did well, right?
It was actually quite good. He took fencing grace and did lots of parry riposting. That didnt do much to BBEG but the mooks got wrecked.
You may have hit upon something there. Probably the most signature power move of the class, Parry and Riposte, has a nasty tendency not to work in tough encounters. Looking at Pathfinder AP #39, City of Seven Spears, (and assuming Valeros's to hit makes a reasonable swashbuckler equivalent), the full bab type has a +12 to hit. Looking at some encounters, D1, has a +16 to hit. F4 has a +14 to hit. K2 a +20. L4 a +18. Some of them give the parry size penalties as well...
Sufficient min-maxing (e.g. a focused swashigator) can overcome this - but that does involve dropping out of swash early.
Swashgator?

Where do you people find gold like this. Swashgator might be my next build, what race is closest to crocidlile other than lizardfolk?

Minmaxing can make almost anything viable.


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Skinwalker has a croc variant heritage.


Based on actual play experience (My wife plays a dervish swash in RotRL):

We are only level 6 right now, but she was the only one consistently hitting the big bad last night, after she basically took care of all the minions. Admiringly the DM was rolling hot as hell on his saving throws (My arcanist and the cleric could not get a spell on him). She is one of two full BAB's and way out hit and out damaged the Dwarven Two Weapon Ranger. The other two characters are Multi-Classed Hot messes.


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If you think people have...mechanical issues with swashbucklers you should see some conflag..disussions about 2 weapon fighting.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
If you think people have...mechanical issues with swashbucklers you should see some conflag..disussions about 2 weapon fighting.

LOL Well anything that requires you talking about 'hands', including swashbucklers, two handed combat, magus, slashing grace, ect, is good for a 'spirited' debate on how it works.


Jason Wedel wrote:

Based on actual play experience (My wife plays a dervish swash in RotRL):

We are only level 6 right now, but she was the only one consistently hitting the big bad last night, after she basically took care of all the minions. Admiringly the DM was rolling hot as hell on his saving throws (My arcanist and the cleric could not get a spell on him). She is one of two full BAB's and way out hit and out damaged the Dwarven Two Weapon Ranger. The other two characters are Multi-Classed Hot messes.

I feel like any time you're in a situation where each party is attacking vs. AC to do damage is when the Swashbuckler shines vs. most classes, and no one is denying that. This is pretty much what the Swashbuckler does best.

The people who have issues with the class are pointing to how the Swashbuckler has limitations in more or less any other situation, but at least "Attack vs. AC to deal damage" is the most common situation in the game.


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graystone wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
If you think people have...mechanical issues with swashbucklers you should see some conflag..disussions about 2 weapon fighting.
LOL Well anything that requires you talking about 'hands', including swashbucklers, two handed combat, magus, slashing grace, ect, is good for a 'spirited' debate on how it works.

For this i mean the "oh my god look at all the math on paper" vs " I seem to be moving a lot and not hurting anything" experiences that people have with two weapon fighting.


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Jason Wedel wrote:

Based on actual play experience (My wife plays a dervish swash in RotRL):

We are only level 6 right now, but she was the only one consistently hitting the big bad last night, after she basically took care of all the minions. Admiringly the DM was rolling hot as hell on his saving throws (My arcanist and the cleric could not get a spell on him). She is one of two full BAB's and way out hit and out damaged the Dwarven Two Weapon Ranger. The other two characters are Multi-Classed Hot messes.

The bolded part is relevant, its incredibly relevant actually as in those first 6 levels you get the best part of the class. The big issue people have, and you should ask your wife to maybe pay attention to if she continues in the class all the way up will be how much she feels the class changes or feels like its growing as she hits like 10, or 15, or even just a few levels from now in comparison to the other party members.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
For this i mean the "oh my god look at all the math on paper" vs " I seem to be moving a lot and not hurting anything" experiences that people have with two weapon fighting.

Ah, I can see that too: just a different kind of mechanical issue. ;)


Has anyone played the finale of a certain AP and fought the high level Swashbuckler there? I laughed when I heard the BBEG was a Swash 20.


what path is that?


Jason Wedel wrote:
what path is that?

From what I've heard

Spoiler!:
the big bad of Ironfang Invasion is supposed to be a swashbuckler, but as I don't have that AP that might not actually be true.

Wow, so it's not a spellcaster? Geez...


PossibleCabbage wrote:


But that's not really any more a problem with the Swashbuckler than it is with the Chaotic Neutral alignment existing.

There's no more problem with Chaotic Neutral existing than there is Lawful Good existing. It's people treating CN as "Hey, an excuse to be Chaotic Evil! Awesome!" just like people using LG as "Hey! An excuse to be a holier-than-thou prick!" In fact, I feel like Chaotic Neutral encompasses more personality types than any other alignment, at least for an adventurer like PCs generally are.


Access to the Signature Deed feat is definitely another reason to stay in the class past 5th level: one of your abilities starts costing nothing at all just when you start getting more critical threats due to more attacks. Your panache and thus your cool factor go farther.


roguerouge wrote:
Access to the Signature Deed feat is definitely another reason to stay in the class past 5th level: one of your abilities starts costing nothing at all just when you start getting more critical threats due to more attacks. Your panache and thus your cool factor go farther.

Does that work? Swashbucklers aren't gunslingers.


yes it does, Panache and grit are actually the same thing, I can find the quote if you wish. Long and short, different names for the same thing, any feat that calls for one can be taken by the other...

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