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Well given that they arent going to be targeted that really gives them like 2 other abilities other than charmed life that will come up for swift. Those players should be fine.
I think he was making a point why people [not the swashbuckler player] dislike the class because it slows things down for non-swashbuckler players when the class functions as intended. Or as unintended when the player gets a free attack pass and both DM [who has to change tactics] and other players [who have to get attacked while the swashbuckler gets 'plot armor'] get annoyed by the swashbuckler's existence in the party.
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Well given that they arent going to be targeted that really gives them like 2 other abilities other than charmed life that will come up for swift. Those players should be fine.I think he was making a point why people [not the swashbuckler player] dislike the class because it slows things down for non-swashbuckler players when the class functions as intended. Or as unintended when the player gets a free attack pass and both DM [who has to change tactics] and other players [who have to get attacked while the swashbuckler gets 'plot armor'] get annoyed by the swashbuckler's existence in the party.
I personally just haven't had that negative experience in Society or my home games. Resolving the Swashbuckler's Parry/Riposte shouldn't take longer than a minute. It's hardly different from a character taking an AoO.
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Resolving the Swashbuckler's Parry/Riposte shouldn't take longer than a minute. It's hardly different from a character taking an AoO.
Not really good comparison. You hardly take a AoO every round of every melee, let alone 2, while a lucky swashbuckler might make a Parry/Riposte every one. So while the time might be the same [or x2 if you parry AND attack], the frequency is MUCH, MUCH greater in the case of Parry/Riposte.
Now think about that in a play by post game. Instead of the DM rolling attacks and damage during an enemies round, you have to post the first attack then wait for the players post a Parry/Riposte. THEN and ONLY then can they get on to the second attack the foe made. Then you see if they try to Parry that one. Then try the Third attack... Days have passed and you're still doing one enemy turn. Even if you streamline the process, it noticeably eats up more time than anyone else's turn because the DM always have to stop the enemies round to let the player have extra time in addition to their normal round.
If you're set on thinking of it like AoO, it's like that If every attack was a ranged spell while threatened by melee.
If you have enough panache, can you run several deeds simultaneously?
For example, could you do a Deadly Stab + Stunning Stab? Could you do a Targeted Strike with Deadly Stab and Stunning Stab?
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Resolving the Swashbuckler's Parry/Riposte shouldn't take longer than a minute. It's hardly different from a character taking an AoO.Not really good comparison. You hardly take a AoO every round of every melee, let alone 2, while a lucky swashbuckler might make a Parry/Riposte every one. So while the time might be the same [or x2 if you parry AND attack], the frequency is MUCH, MUCH greater in the case of Parry/Riposte.
Now think about that in a play by post game. Instead of the DM rolling attacks and damage during an enemies round, you have to post the first attack then wait for the players post a Parry/Riposte. THEN and ONLY then can they get on to the second attack the foe made. Then you see if they try to Parry that one. Then try the Third attack... Days have passed and you're still doing one enemy turn. Even if you streamline the process, it noticeably eats up more time than anyone else's turn because the DM always have to stop the enemies round to let the player have extra time in addition to their normal round.
If you're set on thinking of it like AoO, it's like that If every attack was a ranged spell while threatened by melee.
In pbp, I roll parry riposte before being attacked and declare ‘If attacked, I will P/R with these rolls.
Saves that problem rather easily and is only a tracking job for the player, not anyone else.
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Resolving the Swashbuckler's Parry/Riposte shouldn't take longer than a minute. It's hardly different from a character taking an AoO.Not really good comparison. You hardly take a AoO every round of every melee, let alone 2, while a lucky swashbuckler might make a Parry/Riposte every one. So while the time might be the same [or x2 if you parry AND attack], the frequency is MUCH, MUCH greater in the case of Parry/Riposte.
Now think about that in a play by post game. Instead of the DM rolling attacks and damage during an enemies round, you have to post the first attack then wait for the players post a Parry/Riposte. THEN and ONLY then can they get on to the second attack the foe made. Then you see if they try to Parry that one. Then try the Third attack... Days have passed and you're still doing one enemy turn. Even if you streamline the process, it noticeably eats up more time than anyone else's turn because the DM always have to stop the enemies round to let the player have extra time in addition to their normal round.
If you're set on thinking of it like AoO, it's like that If every attack was a ranged spell while threatened by melee.
Or you post all of the attacks against the swashbuckler that you were going to and let him decided which to parry/riposte, instead of doing things the exaggerated-to-make-a-point way of waiting days.
GM post: Alright, every is getting attacked three times. Here's the attack and damage rolls for each.
Swashbuckler post: I attempt to parry and riposte all three. Here's my rolls.
Done. Didn't have to wait on anyone.
As a GM having only run a few scenarios in PFS with them, they slow the game down entirely too much with their counter abilities. I've seen other GM's simply not target them to make the combats run smoother.
You should just establish with the swashbuckler in advance that they always attempt to parry down to X number of penache, or nimbly hop out of the way of something pouncing.
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The problem is that the swashbuckler has to make the decision to parry before he knows if the attacks are even going to hit or not. I think this is what slows things down.
I dunno about you, but that seems counter intuitive anyway.
I get that there's tactics, having to think a couple rounds ahead, especially when most of your stuff takes swift actions and/or AoO or immediate actions. But, why would you try to parry something that may not even hit you? Give the image of a person flailing their rapier about hoping to deflect instead of a calculated stroke to avoid a hit.
I have two characters that I play on the regular that have swashie levels.
I play it, because I like the option of an active defense, rather than relying on the passive defenses of AC. Wasting a panache, an AoO AND possibly an immediate and next round's swift for a miss, seems a bit much.
Makes that active defense ability less meaningful, imho.
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1) The swashbuckler is billed as a mobile fighter. Besides not needing to be laden down with armor, it has few to no mobility increases. Not movement speed, not pounce, not spring attack. Its ideal is the same as any other martials, hold still and whack for full attacks.
2) It is billed as an agile, charismatic swordsman but the optimal build is a 7 charisma high strength brute. It has no inherent dex to damage, and a 7 charisma and a 12 charisma get you exactly the same amount of penache.
3) Its a very biscoti class. Almost every martial gets an extra attack from a dip, a 5 level dunk gets you everything you need. There's just nothing in the class to keep you going after that.
4) the swiftmediate action chokepoint makes charmed life not usable. The saves are terrible. You are hosed in the rather ubiquitous surprise rounds.
5) Precision damage shuts off in a stiff breeze. Elementals Concealment. Darkness. Elementals. Oozes. Elementals. Incorporeals. elementals. Scenario and adventure authors LOVE these things. Gods help you if you're in season 8: year of the dissapointed rogue.
And don't give me the theorycraft line. This is based on actual play. I've had one in PFS since the preview. (I had a swashbuckler dip level 1 Dervish dancing bard level 5 swashbuckler level 1 paladin, his twin brother is a dervish dancing bard 4 swashbuckler 1)
In pbp, I roll parry riposte before being attacked and declare ‘If attacked, I will P/R with these rolls.
Saves that problem rather easily and is only a tracking job for the player, not anyone else.
Great, that solved the first attack... Now what about the second or third? For instance, what if you miss the big attack [bite, poison sting, ect] and use it on a secondary attack? Do you still want to parry it? or save it? What if the first attack was from a Summon Minor Ally? Use it or wait.
Then what happens if you get a panache from the riposte? Does that change your mind on another parry [like if you're down a lot of hp]?
It's fine if you don't care about any tactics to just post rolls ahead of time but the game requires a reaction to attacks that you don't know the outcome of before hand. It also requires you to be 100% exact as it which attack of which foe you'll use it on and that assumes it's attacking you or else you'll spend that parry on a minion while the boss hits the hunter's companion [or the bosses 1d4 shield bash instead of his +5 vorpal sword...].
See, I've seen people "streamline the process" and while it helps, it doesn't stop swashbucklers from taking up more time, it just reduces the extra time they take up. It requires the DM to do 1/2 his work, stop, and tell you who's moved where and what first attacks are aimed where. THEN we get to the pre-rolled attack, unless that attack didn't happen. Then we either get back to the DM's round or ask if the player wants to target another attack...
PS: This also makes DM's use different tactics JUST for the class. Normal: roll all attack and damage. Swash: Roll single attack and see the result. This means it matters if the scorpion's claw attack is it's stinger.
BigNorseWolf: I'm with you. I've played several swashbuckler dips and I agree. I normally use an archetype that replaces the parry as I find it as annoying using it as it is for me to see others use it. It kills precious game time. Inspired Blade/Mouser 1 / Psychic Detective Investigator is a fav.
This class is like a reverse prestige class: Take 1-5 levels of it to start then move on to your real class...
Makes it the perfect class for swordlord...take 5 levels of bravado, switch to Swordlord
Let me also add that i love the idea, and I love the character type, and the class has a lot of the parts you need to make a swashbuckler work, but it does need a few other parts from here and there in my opinion.
Let me also add that i love the idea, and I love the character type, and the class has a lot of the parts you need to make a swashbuckler work, but it does need a few other parts from here and there in my opinion.
Me to. With a few tweeks it'd be a fun class to stick with. And really, that's what I hate the most: It was so close to being good but the feedback didn't seem to be heard.
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1) ..Not movement speed, not pounce, not spring attack. Its ideal is the same as any other martials, hold still and whack for full attacks.
Derring-Do can add some mobility flair when you use it dodge a full attack, but I agree this could've been handled better. Below I have a list of changes I would've made to help the class. That said, I feel like if swashbucklers had a move and full-attack option people would cry they were OP.
2)...optimal build is a 7 charisma high strength brute...
Totally disagree and have no idea how a swashbuckler functions on low panache. Sure you could pick up extra panache feats but then you're losing out on other necessary feats / cutting your out of combat utility.
3) There's just nothing in the class to keep you going after that.
A lot of people underestimate +1 damage to nearly all attacks per level. That alone can warrant sticking with the class. Also, swashbuckler weapon training is boring but the +1 to hit and damage every few levels is also worth it. From an optimization point sans cheese I think it's very difficult to break away from the swashbuckler class or swashbucklerish archetypes.
4) the swiftmediate action chokepoint makes charmed life not usable.
Valid point but if you're really worried about it a two level Paladin dip + Noble fencer solves this issue. Also, saves are something most martials have trouble dealing with. Really it's only if you get caught by surprise that you are in trouble.
5) Precision damage shuts off in a stiff breeze.
It's honestly not that bad. If you're power attacking you are only slightly behind a two-hander power attacking. And when it is factored in you're ahead. You'll be ahead more than behind. Also, compare this to other classes who have limited uses of +level to damage and you're still ahead.
This is based on actual play. I've had one in PFS since the preview.
We must just have different experiences. My Paladin 2 / Noble Fencer 7 is one of the best all-around martials I've played. I have to have his attack bonus, damage, saves, and AC calculations written out because nearly all GMs question it. Best part is there is no cheese just an Ifrit swash using power attack, slashing grace, and other CRB feats. But I think a lot of PFS players in recent years have strayed from the simple melee concept of just killing everything in front of you.
That is perhaps my favorite thing about the swashbuckler. You can build a perfectly viable, strong character that wields a sword without some crazy cheese like excessive natural attacks, mount pouncing, third arms, etc.
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It is sad though that the class could've been amazing with just a few fixes. I would've made the following changes:
Saves: Strong Fort & Ref. Good yes but thematically makes sense and isn't anything too strong considering most other hybrids have two saves.
2nd level: Charmed Life: You may add your Charisma modifier to saving throws against spells with the mind effecting descriptor or those of the enchantment school.
6th level: Evasion
10th level: Uncanny Dodge
14th level: Improved Uncanny Dodge
18th level: Improved Evasion
Deeds:
11th level(Instead of Evasive) Sweeping Swordplay: As a full-round action, the swashbuckler may spend 1 panache point to move up to her speed. During this movement she may make any number of attacks with a light or one handed piercing weapon she is wielding as if she were using a full attack action. She may make these attacks before, during, or after her movement. Her movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
Paladin 2 / Noble Fencer 7 is one of the best all-around martials I've played.
Not really a glowing endorsement of a classes viability as a full 20th level class when you start it off with Paladin 2...
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Not really a glowing endorsement of a classes viability as a fill 20th level class when you start it off with Paladin 2...
Lol you do have a point but I went Paladin to not have to worry about holding my immediate actions for charmed life. Also I've never played a Paladin and like the RP aspects of the character (He was initially a full swash who was very bandit like but I got a rebuild cert around 5th level. Then I turned him into part Paladin of Sarenrae and he calls himself a reformed bandit)
That said, had I stayed full swash he would've been dealing +2 more damage per hit plus earlier access to swash goodies.
So I should say I saw the merit in staying Swash but my characters tend to get targeted a lot so I sacrificed some of his offensive power for superior saves.
We must just have different experiences. My Paladin 2 / Noble Fencer 7
Okay, stop.
you can't tell me that the class has fine saves that aren't a problem when you dipped to paladin levels for + 7ish to your bad saves.
Totally disagree and have no idea how a swashbuckler functions on low panache. Sure you could pick up extra panache feats but then you're losing out on other necessary feats / cutting your out of combat utility.
feats don't go towards out of combat utility. Cash does.
Going from a 7 to a 14 gets you ONE penache point for a whopping 9 character points. That is less than it takes to take a 16 in a stat to an 18, getting you 1 hit and one damage at the very least, or 1 to 2 hit points per level. Meanwhile extra penache gets you 2 penache points for a feat. Its a way better deal.
Power attack takes an investment of 13 into strength.
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My Swashbuckler fix is the following:
The Charmed Life class Feature is entirely replaced with the following (also called Charmed Life):
At 2nd level the Swashbuckler may add her Charisma modifier as a permanent bonus to one of the following options:
-The Swashbuckler's Fortitude Save.
-The Swashbuckler's Reflex Save.
-The Swashbuckler's Will Save.
-The Swashbuckler's Initiative.
-All Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, and Swim checks that the Swashbuckler makes.
-The Swashbuckler's combat maneuver bonus for one type of maneuver and her CMD to defend against that maneuver.
-The number of attacks of opportunity the Swashbuckler can make per turn. This bonus stacks with Combat Reflexes.At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the Swashbuckler may add their Charisma modifier to another one of the options presented.
Racial Favored Class options that currently add +1/4 of a use of the official version of Charmed Life will instead add +1/6 of a new instance of the new version of Charmed Life.
In my own games I also add some skill and mobility options, plus some other stuff, but I add those to all non-spellcasters. Adding them to Swashbucklers alone would be unbalancing.
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Yeah I gotta say bashing on the class by saying it's only good for a 5 level dip but telling people that a massive save bonus with a 2 level dip doesn't count is really odd.
What's remotely odd about it? My statements are consistent. The class is very biscotti . After a 5 level dunk multiclassing starts looking really good. 2 levels of paladin looks REALLY good after that...
But it doesn't work as a fix to the class. Paladin is only available to one alignment and a set of behavior restrictions, it not only doesn't fit every character concept, it doesn't fit a LOT of swashbuckler concepts and if anything the class tends to run chaotic.
I'm also not seeing any argument for the classes abilities post 5. At all.
If Will saves are such a problem, just take Steadfast Personality and go CHA-based approach to the class. Deals with some of the Panache access problems as well.
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I'm also not seeing any argument for the classes abilities post 5. At all.
1. I stated before +1 damage per level to all attacks alone is a good reason to stick with the class.
2. Weapon training is another scaling flat bonus to attack and damage which makes it competitive when switching with Daring Champion / Virtuos Bravado. If not then see point 1.
3. Targeted Strike BBEG lockdown abuse / ability to essentially auto succeed combat maneuvers without any investment (but I would still rather just full attack)
4. Immunity to disarm/steal/sunder
5. Evasion/Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge.
After 11th level there is less to like but most games don't go that long. Also the system breaks down at that point anyways. That said Death Attack / Stun is nice.
+15 precision Damage, +30 w/panache...That seems like a good reason to me :)
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Realistically, if we're considering a Paladin Dip to fix the swashbuckler, why not just play a Virtuouso Bravo instead? The only real downsides are fewer skills, waiting until level 4 for your deeds, and no early access to improved critical. In exchange you get the Paladin chassis minus spells and mercies (so smite evil; divine grace; LoH; auras of courage, resolve, faith, and righteousness; divine bond, etc.)
It's not a great thing when an archetype of a different class is better at one class's schtick than the class itself (looking at you too Exploiter Wizard.)
I think the mobility of the class comes in multiple ways.
1) derring do. Gain a bonus to Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, a d6 that can explode multiple times.
True. As I mentioned before it expends your very limited combat resource though (for a mean +4.2) and you have no way to regain it before combat short of waiting a day.
2) no half movement on moving through threatened spaces. How is this not movement based fast paced type ability?
No penalty on the acrobatics check for using full movement thru threatened spaces from 7th level, rather than no half movement, it'd be more accurate to say. Iffy IMO.
3) initiative bonus. Seems fast to me.
OK. +2 is a trait-level ability though.
4) superior feint. Feint is using movement to confuse and open up weak spots.
No it's not. That's a slayer-only feat for some reason. A normal feint is about deception (the bluff skill).
Also, a swashbuckler is not best advised to mess with feints, they're fairly accurate already, get no bonus damage from doing so, and most importantly they don't use TWF which is the most effective way in the action economy for feinting. A standard action to feint at 7th level is a bad joke.
5) evasion. Reflex to take half or none.
.... OK, though it's a stretch IMO.
6) immediate action move away from attackers. shuts down pounce and multiple attacks.
True.
7) a bonus to a.c. literally calling them nimble.
Calling them nimble does not make them so. You're being fooled by names here.
Did people really just want to trade this in to move faster? Take the Fleet feat. Not that would be better than just using acrobatics at full speed to move through them and flank.
Everything suggested about what would make them more free moving is a feat. Which they get. For free.
If spring attack is so vital, take it. Not rocket science.
Spring attack or for that matter more movement speed are beside the point. A swashbuckler cannot move more than 5' and full attack, like most full BAB characters this means they want to mostly stand still and full attack rather than to tumble around using acrobatics and lose much of their combat ability. They're poster boys for why vital strike is not an answer to this too - doubling a d6 or a d4 but not the bonuses is especially pointless for a swashbuckler.
noble fencer’s amazing social abilities. Also skills.
Well, those social abilities look good on paper until you remember that you are using the same resource pool. Then you find yourself in a pinch when the party turns into a fight and you spend all your panache wooing the princess...
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Virtuoso isnt pfs legal.
Shocker.
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Virtuoso isnt pfs legal.Shocker.
WHAAAAAAAT? Something good for martials not legal in PFS? noooooooooooo......
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2) It is billed as an agile, charismatic swordsman but the optimal build is a 7 charisma high strength brute. It has no inherent dex to damage, and a 7 charisma and a 12 charisma get you exactly the same amount of penache.
Totally disagree and have no idea how a swashbuckler functions on low panache. Sure you could pick up extra panache feats but then you're losing out on other necessary feats / cutting your out of combat utility.
feats don't go towards out of combat utility. Cash does.
Going from a 7 to a 14 gets you ONE penache point for a whopping 9 character points. That is less than it takes to take a 16 in a stat to an 18, getting you 1 hit and one damage at the very least, or 1 to 2 hit points per level. Meanwhile extra penache gets you 2 penache points for a feat. Its a way better deal.
Power attack takes an investment of 13 into strength.
That is an interesting observation about the swashbucler. My wife plays a dwarven gunslinger/rogue battlefield controller in my current campaign. Her gunslinger starts with 3 grit points each day and they have to last her all day, because the conditions that restore grit almost never occur for her. Firearms crit only on a nat 20, and she disarms or confuses characters rather than dealing killing blows. Three grit points has been enough for her.
In contrast, a swashbuckler can use a keen weapon with a 15-20 crit range and does not have to pause to reload. A single-point Panache pool could be restocked in a few rounds.
This thread inspired me to read the Swashbuckler playtest postings. Playtesters had said that the Swashbuckler needed more reason for a high Charisma than just the Panache pool. So Paizo based Charmed Life on Charisma, too. Since Charmed Life does not mix with the Swashbuckler's other uses for swift actions, it appears to be a weak incentive to invest in Charisma. Therefore, a swashbuckler can dump what was supposed to be a primary attribute.
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My 4 suggestions for Swashbuckler:
Change Derring-do to not cost Panache (as long as you have one panache point...). Nobody wastes their panache on a +1d6 to skill rolls.
Have charmed life not take an action. Your life is charmed, you shouldn't have to think about it.
Allow Swashbuckler weapon training to count as fighter weapon training for the advanced weapon training feat and dueling gloves. While they don't get the free trainings at 9th, 13th and 17th, they can at least get a couple of them, which will help.
Change the Perfect Strike deed at 15th level. Getting one touch attack as a full round action at that level is a joke as the first attack is already going to be an auto hit on most things anyway. It needs to be much better. My suggestion would be a pseudo-pounce or pummeling strike equivalent on a standard action. That would be worth staying in swashbuckler for.
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Less that and more "why in Desna's name would I ever choose a generic swashbuckler"WHAAAAAAAT? Something good for martials not legal in PFS? noooooooooooo......Virtuoso isnt pfs legal.Shocker.
Yeah my point is that PFS regularly holds martials to the lowest common denominator and does precisely dick all to rein in 9 level casters with any effectiveness.
Thats the point.
1. I stated before +1 damage per level to all attacks alone is a good reason to stick with the class.
Its kinda meh.
1) its precision damage. You don't always get it
2) It doesn't multiply on crits on a class designed around critting a lot.
3) its kinda boring. Its math not a cool toy to play with.
2. Weapon training is another scaling flat bonus to attack and damage which makes it competitive when switching with Daring Champion / Virtuos Bravado. If not then see point 1.
..and doesn't work with the cool weapon training options you can get if you dip weapon master.
3. Targeted Strike BBEG lockdown abuse / ability to essentially auto succeed combat maneuvers without any investment (but I would still rather just full attack)
If you are full attacking something at that level it should either die, or die the next time your party member acts. This goes into the mobility problem i was saying before.
4. Immunity to disarm/steal/sunder
Your weapon should be adamantine and you can get the rest for a 10gp gauntlet.
5. Evasion/Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge.
at the end of the game. If you're lucky. You're slogging through 6 levels to get to that. Just dip rogue /urban barbarian if thats what you want.
Evasion etc is a level 11 ability for them IIRC, one of those deeds that require one point of panache to be held onto
That's probably true, but conversely PFS also tries to maintain a reason for people to pick a class in general. In my understanding that's generally why stuff like Paladin Bravos and Primalist Bloodragers are banned. They basically obsolete the parent class.Less that and more "why in Desna's name would I ever choose a generic swashbuckler"WHAAAAAAAT? Something good for martials not legal in PFS? noooooooooooo......Virtuoso isnt pfs legal.Shocker.Yeah my point is that PFS regularly holds martials to the lowest common denominator and does precisely dick all to rein in 9 level casters with any effectiveness.
Thats the point.
And in the case of mechanically poor parent classes (fighter, rogue, monk, swashbuckler) thats a bad hill to fight for. M/C divide will always be more extreme and obvious in PFS as a result. Changes which fix that outside of an entire new edition where these classes get rewritten will be met with "but PFS doesn't allow it" killing discussion and frustrating all involved.
If Will saves are such a problem, just take Steadfast Personality and go CHA-based approach to the class.Only works on mind-effecting effects.
Those are the ones to worry about; if there's another one that's a big deal, that's what Charmed Life is for.
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Less that and more "why in Desna's name would I ever choose a generic swashbuckler"WHAAAAAAAT? Something good for martials not legal in PFS? noooooooooooo......Virtuoso isnt pfs legal.Shocker.Yeah my point is that PFS regularly holds martials to the lowest common denominator and does precisely dick all to rein in 9 level casters with any effectiveness.
Thats the point.
Giving free Wishes to PFS leadership has paid off!