yes it does, Panache and grit are actually the same thing, I can find the quote if you wish. Long and short, different names for the same thing, any feat that calls for one can be taken by the other...
That would be the case if it said "grit user 11" or "11 levels in a class with the grit feature" but there's more to a gunslinger than grit.
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From the Swashbuckler description of Panache
Grit and Panache: The gunslinger's grit and the swashbuckler's panache represent two paths to gain access to the same heroic pool. Characters with both grit and panache class features combine the two resources into a larger pool of both grit points and panache points.For the purposes of feat prerequisites, a character with the panache class feature satisfies the prerequisites as if she were a grit user, and vice versa. Swashbuckler levels stack with gunslinger levels for the purpose of satisfying Signature Deed's level requirement. For feats, magic items, and other effects, a panache user can spend and gain panache points in place of grit points, and vice versa.
AHh ok.
Still, levels 5 to 11 is a LONG way to go for something thats kinda meh. If you're parrying something you're probably going to riposte it for a penache back, and then hit it again (possibly for a crit)
The only time I've run low on penache was fighting a 3 attack per round monster , playing up, and the party left me alone to deal with it. And my luck is terrible.
One of the erratas nerfed both Signature Deed (limiting its use to once per turn) AND made most of the good Deeds unusable with it.
Ah, the wonderful double nerf, making sure something is super dead.
I have question for those that have played swashbuckler. What would you do to give the class more of a reason to stay past 5? More deeds? Changes the deeds to be more powerful as the swash leveled up? Other class features?
Ah, the wonderful double nerf, making sure something is super dead.
I have question for those that have played swashbuckler. What would you do to give the class more of a reason to stay past 5? More deeds? Changes the deeds to be more powerful as the swash leveled up? Other class features?
Mobility. The ability to attack and move. Circling mongoose or themonks minipounce or something.
It affects two deeds: Precise Strike and Parry and Riposte.
As for the once per round thing, that's unfortunate, but you can still negate a lot of full attacks with a well-timed free Dodging Panache 5' step. There's still the Bleeding Wound reduction of ability score loss 1/round, or make the Targeted Strike imposition of a confusion, prone, staggered, or disarmed condition always free.
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Ah, the wonderful double nerf, making sure something is super dead.
I have question for those that have played swashbuckler. What would you do to give the class more of a reason to stay past 5? More deeds? Changes the deeds to be more powerful as the swash leveled up? Other class features?
LOL They HAVE perfected the nuke from orbit...
As to what to do to encourage leveling in class:
"deeds?": Oh gods no. If anything, it could use LESS things that require swift/immediate actions.
"Changes the deeds": Maybe? But it would have to be something drastic like a built in Signature Deed after x levels in the deed or something.
"Other class features?": Couldn't hurt. A way to use more than one swift action x times/day would do a LOT. Some actual movement abilities would help too
'other': to be honest, it'd help if it's chassis wasn't so bad. It's only having 1 good save for a hybrid class is just sad. A multiclass into just about ANYTHING looks tempting. Even a level of fighter bumps your fort 2 points [and a feat!] while a Vigilante level does the same for Will [and +4 to a skill or Swift Aid!]
Best thing: start from scratch IMO:
Add good Will saves: less need to buff saves outside class.
Add move abilities: Something simple like charging without a straight line, move and make attacks anywhere along the move and free movement staying inside a foes threatened area [repositioning] would make the class actually FEEL like a swashbuckler.
1/4 levels [min 1], allow 2 swift action/rd.
LESS deeds: fold non-active ones into panache and make the others a list to pick from with level limits. It'll make deeds feel less cookie cutter.
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I have question for those that have played swashbuckler. What would you do to give the class more of a reason to stay past 5? More deeds? Changes the deeds to be more powerful as the swash leveled up? Other class features?
I played a Swashbuckler to 20, Mythic Tier 10. I would say starting from scratch would be the best thing.
What I would change about the class, a short list:
- Good Fort save, being a frontliner without a good fort save is absurd.
- Change Charmed Life to be " The Swashbuckler uses her Charisma modifier on Will saves instead of her Wisdom modifier."
- Rework your defining class feature to be something you have to select at given levels, rather than just something you get by default. Being able to choose from a list is more interesting, and this allows you to improve or alter the class by simply printing more options. A good number of these should include social skills. (the Vigilante is a good model to look at here.)
- Special attention here should be paid to giving the class mobility features. Things like "you can move an additional 5 feet when you 5' step" or "After a successful attack, you can move 5 feet without provoking an AoO" would make the Swashbuckler feel more like it should.
- Make the Swashbuckler Weapon Training actual Weapon Training.
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Grit and deeds have always been "you get them all once you get here". I'd rather not change that.
That's what I like the least about the class. Why make a huge list of abilities in one place when you have no options? It seems super silly. There is no reason to have a separate deed feature in that case: just make them their own class features and put them at the level you're forced to take them...
EDIT: or at least spread them out so you don't get them in blocks. You get 19 deed over 19 levels, why not get one/level to at least make the next level seem better.
I have question for those that have played swashbuckler. What would you do to give the class more of a reason to stay past 5? More deeds? Changes the deeds to be more powerful as the swash leveled up? Other class features?
I'd mostly agree with possiblecabbage's list of changes
1. Good fort save, definitely. The fact they don't have this is really bizarre.
2. I'd just change charmed life to a free action. I think then it would be fine.
3. I agree on the weapon training.
With those three I think you'd be fine. Swash is already a reasonable class, even if not a powerhouse that the forum min maxers will appreciate.
Optionally, I'd consider a deed/feat at level 11 that allows them an additional swift action per turn. Might be too much though.
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It affects two deeds: Precise Strike and Parry and Riposte.
As for the once per round thing, that's unfortunate, but you can still negate a lot of full attacks with a well-timed free Dodging Panache 5' step. There's still the Bleeding Wound reduction of ability score loss 1/round, or make the Targeted Strike imposition of a confusion, prone, staggered, or disarmed condition always free.
They don't get used enough to burn your penache pool below what it can refill on.
The real "fix" to the swashbuckler in my mind is the end of the deed system. It seems really cool but it leads to most deeds being kinda weak, it frontloads the class, and limits the options of the class.
A modular pool of talents like the Barbarian or Vigilante would improve the class tremendously.
One person can play a super mobile warrior using something like the Dervish Dance.
Another can play a dodge tank. This would have options to improve opportune parry and riposte
I'd like to see a melee debuffer like the unchained rogue. It would upgrade to allow more dirty tricks
My style would be the Cloak and Sword approach. Like the Dueling Cape deed feat but not terrible. This would get a power like the nerfed Cape of Feinting but not terrible.
Of course there is a mix of styles too but you could specialize like the Barbarian's Totems.
But yes Charmed Life is h+@@@&&!$. Just make it like Divine Grace already.
Several of the martial classes, including Swashbuckler and Gunslinger, should really be made into archetypes of Fighter.
Several of the martial classes, including Swashbuckler and Gunslinger, should really be made into archetypes of Fighter.
Wasn't that the original plan for gunslinger? I can kind of agree but I feel like it would be a huge number of changes. I can see it going igther way. That and then you couldn't archtype the gunslinger and swashbuckler by themselves.
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Adding Cha, or using it instead of Wis for Will Saves would only make the class significantly more dippable for other classes, and in general, I'm against this tactic because I've seen too much cheese from swapping stat basses around. In particular when it comes to Cha, or Dex.
One of my house rules is that everyone, once they get multiple attacks from BaB, can sacrifice the later attacks to take an additional 5ft Step. Fighters get it at the level that they get the extra attacks, while everyone else gets it one level after.
So a character with 3 attacks (from BaB), could 5ft Step and attack x3, 10ft Step or take two seperate 5ft Steps and Attack twice, or 15ft Step/5ft Step x3 and Attack once. It would still be a Full Attack, (if they want) so Haste, TWF, or whatever could still apply, but it helps with Mobility, and also allows for safer approaches through Reach.
Maybe something like this, though I'm not sure I would want it to be Swash only.
For what it is worth, I like the idea of reducing the number of deeds and adding a number of them back as "Swashbuckler Tricks", make it so you get a trick at first level and every other even number (Opposite Combat feats).
I would also put charmed life in the tricks category with a couple other versions of the general idea (Strait bonus to all savings throws equal to level/5 min 1). Some skill bonuses, etc... HOWEVER all would be Panache based
And yes on Weapon Training....
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Thats very interesting. For two reasons, honestly. In my opinion, Cha is already the single most important stat in the game, all things considered, and I would actually make that arguement for Wis, where very little actually works off of Wisdom. Remove Cleric/Druid Spells and Monk AC, as they are class specific, and in honesty not that important even to them. That leaves you with Will Saves, Perception, Sense Motive, Survival, and Profession. The last two, not terribly important, but, as with all of the Skills, a few Ranks gets you right where you want to be, and will quickly overshadow your actual Ability Mod by level 1-5.
And Will, while arguably the best save, total dumping Wisdom is still only putting you at a -3ish, which is very easily compensated for via Cloak of Resistance, a Trait or Feat, multiple Class Features, or various spells and items, but simply have a 10-12 Wis is not terrible.
So, if we have to have Base Stat replacements, I would rather see anything BUT Cha, Dex, or maybe Int be the one thatnreplaces things. Wis, Str, and maybe Con first.
Skills are very easy to increase with magic items. If all a stat does is boost skills its ridiculously cheap to make up for it.
A druid with a 4,500 gp circlet of persuasion acts just like one with a charisma SIX points higher.
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Secondly I'm in favor of charisma getting to do stuff because I still think it's a gaping design oversight that the stat literally does nothing by itself.
Thats very interesting. For two reasons, honestly. In my opinion, Cha is already the single most important stat in the game, all things considered, and I would actually make that arguement for Wis, where very little actually works off of Wisdom.
The sad dilemma is both Blackwaltzomega and DM Beckett are right.
Strength is good for attacks regardless of character class. Dexterity is good for scouting, archery, and Reflex saves regardless of character class. Constitution is good for surviving damage and Fortitude saves regardless of character class. Intelligence is good for skills regardless of character class. Wisdom is good for Perception and Will saves regardless of character class. Charisma gets some skills that few characters use.
That means that when the design of a class wants Charisma as a primary stat, it has to offer a lot for the investment in Charisma to pay off. Nine-level spellcasting is an excellent return for its mental attribute, so Sorcerer and Oracle do well. Paladin has minimal spellcasting, so it has other returns off of Charisma. Bard gets versatile performance that essentially applies Charisma to a few non-Charisma skills. Rogue has no Charisma abilities, because it is not really a Charisma-based class.
In addition, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, and Use Magic Device mostly have high DC, such as 20. And a bad roll in Bluff, Disguise, or Intimidate could result in worse than a wasted turn. Reliably using those skills requires heavy investment in skill points. That investment pays off sooner with investment in Charisma and in a class that has those skills as class skills. Perform and Handle Animal are more normal to use, but that does not negate the influence of the other five skills.
Thus, it is not that Charisma is naturally the most important attribute; rather, Charisma gives an excellent return on investment for many classes. Multiclassing those Charisma-based classes could pay off extraordinarily well. As many people have said here, Swashbuckler is frontloaded, most of its benefits come in the early levels. That makes it a good dip. Giving it Charisma to Will saves would frontload it even more.
For what it is worth, I like the idea of reducing the number of deeds and adding a number of them back as "Swashbuckler Tricks", make it so you get a trick at first level and every other even number (Opposite Combat feats).
Some of those Swashbuckler tricks could require a high Charisma. That would give a benefit to Charisma that is not frontloaded. Imagine:
Willful Rebuttal Swashbuckler Trick
The swashbuckler gains a +2 bonus to Will saves. This increases by +1 at 4th level and every 4 levels after that. The swashbuckler must have Charisma 15 or higher to select this trick.
Just making Swashbuckler's total Panache pool be "1 + Cha" would already make investing in Cha be considerably more interesting... But would not fix the class.
Most people would likely think it broken in the too MAD/weak sense.
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Adding Cha, or using it instead of Wis for Will Saves would only make the class significantly more dippable for other classes, and in general, I'm against this tactic because I've seen too much cheese from swapping stat basses around. In particular when it comes to Cha, or Dex.
Eh. If you add it at 2nd, like I did in my House Rules, that's a two level dip for worse than Paladin Save bonuses. I'm not sure that makes it overly dippable.
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Most people would likely think it broken in the too MAD/weak sense.
I mean, I'd prefer to get rid of dex-to-damage entirely from the game (or just make it the exclusive province of rogues), and just replace it with static scaling bonuses to damage when you use STR for Damage and Dex to Attack (like the Fighter's "Trained Grace" Advanced Weapon Training).
I mean, that way finesse fighters benefit from having *some* strength. If I picture the classic Swashbuckler I think of someone with a strength around 14 rather than 10.
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Most people would likely think it broken in the too MAD/weak sense.I mean, I'd prefer to get rid of dex-to-damage entirely from the game (or just make it the exclusive province of rogues), and just replace it with static scaling bonuses to damage when you use STR for Damage and Dex to Attack (like the Fighter's "Trained Grace" Advanced Weapon Training).
I mean, that way finesse fighters benefit from having *some* strength. If I picture the classic Swashbuckler I think of someone with a strength around 14 rather than 10.
Myself, I'd rather it go all the way in the other direction. Just make Dex to damage a simple and easy feat that JUST requires weapon finesse. No fiddly 'no off hand use' or 'juggle a naked mole rat in one hand after 2PM to gain dex to damage with the other' or whatever else they'll do next. I see the physical stats as a mirror of the mental stats. I don't think the 'classic' wizard would have a 14 wis and Cha instead of 10 anymore than I'd expect the 'classic' plate-shield and sword fighter to have a 14 dex instead of a 10.
If we're going with *some* of another stat being requires, I'll want Str to require dex damage to have parity...
Adding Cha, or using it instead of Wis for Will Saves would only make the class significantly more dippable for other classes, and in general, I'm against this tactic because I've seen too much cheese from swapping stat basses around. In particular when it comes to Cha, or Dex.Eh. If you add it at 2nd, like I did in my House Rules, that's a two level dip for worse than Paladin Save bonuses. I'm not sure that makes it overly dippable.
To be fair, some don't even consider the paladin as an option because of alignment/oath issues so a viable option for Cha to saves might be quite tempting. If I could find a class that gave Cha to Fort, I'd take it in a heartbeat for my 'everything runs off Cha' oracle. Sadly, I'd have to come back as an undead to manage that. ;)
(or teetotallers as many swashies are great topers)
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Most people would likely think it broken in the too MAD/weak sense.I mean, I'd prefer to get rid of dex-to-damage entirely from the game (or just make it the exclusive province of rogues), and just replace it with static scaling bonuses to damage when you use STR for Damage and Dex to Attack (like the Fighter's "Trained Grace" Advanced Weapon Training).
I mean, that way finesse fighters benefit from having *some* strength. If I picture the classic Swashbuckler I think of someone with a strength around 14 rather than 10.
Myself, I'd rather it go all the way in the other direction. Just make Dex to damage a simple and easy feat that JUST requires weapon finesse. No fiddly 'no off hand use' or 'juggle a naked mole rat in one hand after 2PM to gain dex to damage with the other' or whatever else they'll do next. I see the physical stats as a mirror of the mental stats. I don't think the 'classic' wizard would have a 14 wis and Cha instead of 10 anymore than I'd expect the 'classic' plate-shield and sword fighter to have a 14 dex instead of a 10.
If we're going with *some* of another stat being requires, I'll want Str to require dex damage to have parity...
Path of War has a feat that requires Weapon Finesse and level 3 for dex to damage. Anymore, even in games where I don't allow any third party stuff, I still allow that feat. I find the two feats (weapon finesse this feat) to be just the right cost to balance dex to damage.
I like what PossibleCabbage said as well
-Good fort saves.
-Charmed life uses cha mod instead of wisdom for will saves.
-Swashbuckler weapon training is actual weapon training.
-Mobility based class abilities.
I would also like to add dex to damage built into the class like the unchained rogue.
Adding Cha, or using it instead of Wis for Will Saves would only make the class significantly more dippable for other classes, and in general, I'm against this tactic because I've seen too much cheese from swapping stat basses around. In particular when it comes to Cha, or Dex.Eh. If you add it at 2nd, like I did in my House Rules, that's a two level dip for worse than Paladin Save bonuses. I'm not sure that makes it overly dippable.
Do what Enlightened Paladin and Kensai Magus did to their version of Monk AC. +1 Charisma to Will saves per class level.
Do what Enlightened Paladin and Kensai Magus did to their version of Monk AC. +1 Charisma to Will saves per class level.Adding Cha, or using it instead of Wis for Will Saves would only make the class significantly more dippable for other classes, and in general, I'm against this tactic because I've seen too much cheese from swapping stat basses around. In particular when it comes to Cha, or Dex.Eh. If you add it at 2nd, like I did in my House Rules, that's a two level dip for worse than Paladin Save bonuses. I'm not sure that makes it overly dippable.
Those are... pretty bad features IMO. When your character is most vulnerable, you have the exact same AC as a caster. ;P
Wizard w/ Haramaki same as Kensai Magus if they have the same Dex, at 1st. If the Kensai was a ranged character, it might not be too bad but...
Those features are ok in the prestige class they originally showed up in BECAUSE they are several levels in and they don't have to worry about a high dice weapons murdering them in a single hit. In a base class, it just encourages dips into it AFTER you've settles in to your real class. For instance, if a monk has a higher than average Int, a dip into Kensai Magus isn't bad.
As to the paladin, I couldn't find the archetype you mentioned: do you mean the Iroran Paladin? If so, same points there. Both are better off wearing armor and ignoring their class feature for a few levels. That IMO, seems bad.
Path of War has a feat that requires Weapon Finesse and level 3 for dex to damage. Anymore, even in games where I don't allow any third party stuff, I still allow that feat. I find the two feats (weapon finesse this feat) to be just the right cost to balance dex to damage.
I always recommend that one too. It's interesting that, despite what some doomsayers have doomsaid, the introduction of an easy* dex-to-damage feat (and even easy Finesse with katanas, spears, and polearms) in Path of War did not lead to all the Strength builds being lined up against the wall and shot on the Day of the Rapier.
*simple prerequisites such that everyone can have it by level 3 at the latest, and simple language not loaded down with a ton of qualifiers and caveats (looking at you, Slashing Grace)
Enlightened Paladin might be Iroran Paladin. I prefer d20pfsrd's layout but I find myself falling back to Archives of Nythes more as annoying stuff like this happens.
The AC per class level does suck for base classes, but you don't have super high saves early. Getting +1 Will/level (if high enough Charisma) shouldn't be changing too much versus a full +Cha to Will saves. You'll get a +5 at level 5 where saves will start to become more important with level 3 spells and most characters won't be getting more than 20 Charisma until later.
It could get a caveat, that the rule only applies in multiclassing, and single classed get full bonus.
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To be fair, some don't even consider the paladin as an option because of alignment/oath issues so a viable option for Cha to saves might be quite tempting. If I could find a class that gave Cha to Fort, I'd take it in a heartbeat for my 'everything runs off Cha' oracle. Sadly, I'd have to come back as an undead to manage that. ;)
You'd drop two levels of casting for a Will Save bonus? That seems like a less than stellar idea on a full caster, IMO.
+1 Cha per level was my initial thought as well, but, in this case where people are suggesting level 5 max, it sort of seems to defeat the purpose, and is still mostly dippable.
Just to clarify, I am not suggesting a max of 5. Simply most players don't get beyond 20 Charisma unless they are Sorcerer/Oracle, so when the players need a big buff to saves, they have it, at level 5. If you get somehow get 50 Charisma as a Swashbuckler, you could get +2 to saves at level 20.
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Sorry, I meant Swash level 5. I am not too familiar with the class, but the idea Ive heard a lot, here and elsewhere was to only take 5 levels and then move on. Others take a level or three dip to help their real class/build.
In both cases, +1 Cha to save (s) per Swash level seems like it defeats the purpose of boosting the class itself instead of making it even more dip worthy, (unles its late level, which I would think would not help), and ultimately I think just giving it a good Will Save would be best, if not reasons to boost Wis (and Cha).
It's situational depending on what someone is trying to do with their character.
If they are only going for self-buffs and non-other-target impacting spells or party aid spells, then it is entirely viable to not have to worry about caster level.
And even if there is a concern, there's always Magical Knack.
Deadmanwalking: My 'oracle' isn't primarily an oracle or caster. You only need 1 level of oracle to get Cha to AC and Ref saves. I said oracle instead of multiclass because every knows offhand the tricks for Cha it brings to the table. In fact, 'oracle' in this case might even not be the oracle class itself but a Ravener Hunter Inquisitor stealing the oracles tricks by taking Lunar and Prophetic Armor.
It depends if I'm looking for more oracle goodies or not, like taking Spirit Guide oracle for that sweet, sweet Cha to all Int skills... In the end, my current 'oracle' is mostly brawler leveraging desna shooting star and and the new Weapon Modifications for Cha to brawlers flurry with a single Starknife.
As to a will save, it competes with Irrepressible/Steadfast Personality for cha bonuses to will so it would depend on trait/feat access. On a tight feat/trait build, a dip could be tempting. Add to that, the class already has tempting things for a dip so this is just sweetening the pot. For instance, in the above oracle/brawler multiclass, Swashbuckler Finesse opens up Piranha Strike with no dex, lets me add 1d6's to skills I'm weak in [who needs str/dex in a cha does it all build], cha dodge bonus to ac [double your single stat!], and Parry and Riposte...
SorrySleeping: I go to nethys because I find the search function far superior to D20, so I see where we where referencing different names.
TriOmegaZero: Oh I understand it was in reference to Saves but I find that type of ability almost as bad for them too. It's true Will saves aren't as plentiful at lower level but they are just as important as higher level saves. A simple command/fear from the lowly 1st level kobold adept can change winning the encounter to death by attacks of opportunity: When the difference is either +1 or +4 and your base is 0, it's a pretty noticeable change.
So I stick with my thought that '+1/level abilities' kind of suck for base classes.
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It's situational depending on what someone is trying to do with their character.If they are only going for self-buffs and non-other-target impacting spells or party aid spells, then it is entirely viable to not have to worry about caster level.
And even if there is a concern, there's always Magical Knack.
I'd be more concerned with lost spellcasting progression than lost caster levels. As you say, caster levels can be compensated for and often aren't super important. But 2 levels of spellcasting progression mean you're casting spells one level lower than you would've been otherwise forever after.
Deadmanwalking: My 'oracle' isn't primarily an oracle or caster. You only need 1 level of oracle to get Cha to AC and Ref saves. I said oracle instead of multiclass because every knows offhand the tricks for Cha it brings to the table. In fact, 'oracle' in this case might even not be the oracle class itself but a Ravener Hunter Inquisitor stealing the oracles tricks by taking Lunar and Prophetic Armor.
It depends if I'm looking for more oracle goodies or not, like taking Spirit Guide oracle for that sweet, sweet Cha to all Int skills... In the end, my current 'oracle' is mostly brawler leveraging desna shooting star and and the new Weapon Modifications for Cha to brawlers flurry with a single Starknife.
As to a will save, it competes with Irrepressible/Steadfast Personality for cha bonuses to will so it would depend on trait/feat access. On a tight feat/trait build, a dip could be tempting. Add to that, the class already has tempting things for a dip so this is just sweetening the pot. For instance, in the above oracle/brawler multiclass, Swashbuckler Finesse opens up Piranha Strike with no dex, lets me add 1d6's to skills I'm weak in [who needs str/dex in a cha does it all build], cha dodge bonus to ac [double your single stat!], and Parry and Riposte...
On a build like that, absent Desna's Shooting Star you could already go Paladin for even better save bonuses, plus Smite Evil just by being LG. I'm not invested in LG being the ideal alignment for such defensive builds.
And I'm personally inclined to allow CG Paladins as well, which would allow Paladin on exactly that build...
I'd be more concerned with lost spellcasting progression than lost caster levels. As you say, caster levels can be compensated for and often aren't super important. But 2 levels of spellcasting progression mean you're casting spells one level lower than you would've been otherwise forever after.
How is taking a few levels BAB class falling behind a partial caster character on a 3/4 BAB caster? As Wei Ji the Learner mentioned, for a buffer you don't need the highest possible spells to be effective and you can manage as a secondary weapon user. This is especially true if you aren't the 'main' caster for a group and they mainly buff then wander into combat.
On a build like that, absent Desna's Shooting Star you could already go Paladin for even better save bonuses, plus Smite Evil just by being LG. I'm not invested in LG being the ideal alignment for such defensive builds.
And I'm personally inclined to allow CG Paladins as well, which would allow Paladin on exactly that build...
I'd still be wary of paladin. They have been the class that has caused most party conflict by a large majority from my experience. As the "L" part of their alignment has been unheard of as an issue with them, I wouldn't expect any less issues with a CG one. Some DM's find it their highest duty in life to try their very best to get a paladin to fall be any means necessary, using every catch 22 situation they can think of... One disagreement on what's evil and now you're playing a not-paladin. :(
Now if you made an ex-paladin version that didn't remove all the good abilities, I'd be all over it. The Vindictive Bastard isn't that bad of a class but I wouldn't call it a paladin anymore.