Idea #1: invest in skill points.
Even a fighter can get 6-7 skill points per level from level one.
Human with a 13 or 14 int. Advanced weapon and armor mastery for more skills. Ioun stones for +2 int.
Fast Learner
Additional traits to pick up extra class skills.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Build to your strengths.
Fighter/Barbar can get intimidating Prowess to help in conversations.
Your face can't find a diplomatic solution - make the person think twice. (Get gurgonsmash later)
Monk is even easier heal; survival and sense motiv are all wisdom based.
And dont forget traits. Many can make skills class skills and on monk wisdom in the flesh for disable device is very good.
Whatever fits your character-concept?
Pick up a couple of traits to round out your class skill list. Even if other party members have them already or are better at them, it never hurts to have a touch of redundancy or a reliable source of aid. One should never scoff at the 'meager' +2 aid another provides.
If you really, really want skills as a full BAB martial Ranger and Slayer are the easiest route in. Both are 6+int. A Ranger dealing with their favored enemy is exceedingly useful and still pretty skilled when not. Slayers get a mess of bonuses to their studied targets and are Int-based so will get even more skills besides.
I have at several points played:
-A Cavalier who talked his way through most encounters.
-A Fighter who was a the most reliable source of identifying enemies.
-A Ranger who was better at picking locks than the party rogue.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Fighters have it bad. But most other martial classes aren't that boned. Barbarians/bloodragers get a decent amount of skill points and quite a few good class skills. Rangers/slayers get lots of them. Paladins apologize to nobody for their Diplomacy and "you can trust be cuz otherwise I wouldn't be a paladin" credibility. Cavaliers get all social skills as class skills as well. Gunslingers have good use for Wisdom and that bumps Perception, Sense Motive and Survival.
Anyone can decide to just not dump Int to kill enemies even faster. "Kill them fast" is good enough.
One issue is how the GM sets up skill challenges. (I know, it's a dirty 4th ed word, but it's the clearest term.) If the skills you're typically challenged on are knowledge checks, it'll be hard.
But if it's about athletic skills, like navigating difficult territory, climbing and swimming, martials tend to have those as class skills and have good strength and dexterity too.
The familiar complaint is "wizards can just Fly", but that does cost them a 3rd level spell. Fine if there is a single obstacle. If there's obstacles every few hours, that gets rather draining. Skills are a "stamina" option.
Another thing to notice is that the skill system rewards both broad and narrow investment. A single skill point unlocks class skill bonuses. But to beat higher-level challenges you probably need to have seriously invested in a skill. Base talent starts out strong, but after a few levels consistent spending starts to trump it.
My slayer has Int 10, and maxed out K(Local). I also have an ioun stone to give a bonus, taking me to a +17 at level 9. I also have a Lore Needle so three times per day I can apply it to a different knowledge. Suddenly for 9 skill points and 4000+5000gp I can compete with wizards on knowledges. I'm not beating their primary knowledge but I'm better at all the ones they didn't put more than a single point in.
Look for ways to boost many skills at once. Reducing Armor Check Penalty is a big one because it improved Acrobatics, Climb, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Ride, Stealth, Sleight of Hand, and Swim. That's a lot of skills made better for something you were probably considering anyway (mithral armor).
Remember, it's not a competition. If everyone in the party can specialize in different skills, the best score per skill in the party goes up higher than if everyone is competing to be the best at the same skill. If you invest a lot in Sense Motive then the cleric can spend his also-scarce skill points to be better at recognizing what kind of undead you're facing.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Charisma skills are often "one roll only". So the party is going to ask a character high a good charisma to do it, and martial classes are not charisma based.
Swashbuckler?
One way to make a Fighter/Barbarian useful outside of combat is through equipment. Carry any tools you think you could need - you're probably strong enough. Get hold of an adamantine weapon to make holes in walls. Ask your GM if you can buy an intelligent magic item that can cast the utility spells the party casters can't.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Use roleplay to capitalize on your assets.
Do things that give you a circumstance bonus to the check you are trying to make.
McBeefy the 24 strength 10 charisma fighter may not get far by simply asking around for information. But if there is a construction site or barn raising he could lend a hefty hand for a negligible price. I'm in town for the day, I'll help put this building up for some lamb chops and a couple drinks. -Then while on the work site he can get into some small talk with the guys putting up the building. Who knows what he could learn on a lunch break. Sure he might not have the best charisma, but I bet he could get a few good rumors, or at least a hefty bonus on any checks he has to make.
Miss Quick the 22 Dex archer -Could arrange a ladies knitting lunch for the village. Lemonade and pastries provided. Bring your knitting and share good food and laughs. By getting the towns folk comfortable with you, you should get more information.
Bottom line, it's far more fun to come up with a unique idea of how to spend your time, besides drinking it away in a bar, and most DMs will reward you for it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Charisma skills are often "one roll only". So the party is going to ask a character high a good charisma to do it, and martial classes are not charisma based.Swashbuckler?
Paladin?
There is a difference between useful at and best at as well. It is easier to be good enough to assist than it is to be the primary. Using threatening presence to assist your face with a tough crowd is thematic, and puts you there if things go pear shaped. Assuming you are decent at perception, you can spot people sneaking off while the questioning is happening, or potential ambushes on that Druid. At the very least, you tend to discourage hostile interactions.
Paladin?Charisma skills are often "one roll only". So the party is going to ask a character high a good charisma to do it, and martial classes are not charisma based.Swashbuckler?
If we're counting partial casters, there are a lot of good flexible martial options.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Paladin?Charisma skills are often "one roll only". So the party is going to ask a character high a good charisma to do it, and martial classes are not charisma based.Swashbuckler?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have seen fighters that...
- Have enough scouting skills to follow/back-up the dedicated scout build rather than trailing 100' behind him. If no scout build, he is reasonably capable of handling the tasks.
- Enough perception and sense motive to assist in interrogations.
- Enough intimidate to out threaten the bard and use in combat.
- A trait and ranks in the monster knowledge that no one else has a class skill.
- A decent total in a profession or craft often is (or can be made) quite unexpectedly useful.
- Traits and few ranks in a few common skills to reliably assist in most situations.
- Points in the non-monster knowledges to get background info and sabotoge. Most GM's set those DC's lower so don't need as high a total. Most other players don't put more than 1 point in any of these.
- Ranks in UMD to use anything found along the way.
- Take the feats to get a sage familiar that can be the face or scout.
Bottom line. A non-caster usually martial can't be as good at as many non-combat roles as a skill monkey or primary caster. But they can be good enough at a small number to be quite useful.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Try role-playing. Not everything needs to use a die roll. As Daw said, there's a difference between "useful" and "best".
|
Be adopted by halfings and be really helpful. It's fun to play and a +4 is a good bonus to give out when roleplaying.
Otherwise use your race choice. I like half elves. They have a ton of options to make themselves more versatile. Cunning is a good feat for a skill monkey fighter also put your FCB into skills.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Try role-playing. Not everything needs to use a die roll. As Daw said, there's a difference between "useful" and "best".
The 2 are in no way mutually exclusive. They are much more complimentary. If I have an 8 in charisma and no ranks, I will role play him as socially inept and he probably won't be much of an asset in discussion. However if he also has a 14 wisdom, perception and sense motive as class skills, and at least a few ranks; I would play his as standing off to the side watching for trouble and trying to detect deception.
Personally it always bugs me when someone builds with all dumped mental stats then plays as a strategist, schemer, and smooth talker.
Definitely agree with some of the points above. It is only the fighter which is really skill starved.
Cunning + human can really help fighters. It is all about looking at the rest of the party and identifying gaps or where "aid other" can help.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Try role-playing. Not everything needs to use a die roll. As Daw said, there's a difference between "useful" and "best".The 2 are in no way mutually exclusive. They are much more complimentary. If I have an 8 in charisma and no ranks, I will role play him as socially inept and he probably won't be much of an asset in discussion. However if he also has a 14 wisdom, perception and sense motive as class skills, and at least a few ranks; I would play his as standing off to the side watching for trouble and trying to detect deception.
Personally it always bugs me when someone builds with all dumped mental stats then plays as a strategist, schemer, and smooth talker.
This is good stuff. Still, remember that you don't have to roleplay yourself as useless just because you have low ability scores. There's something narratively satisfying about the Int-dumping barbarian occasionally solving the dungeon puzzles simply from not overthinking them, or the Wis-dumping fool doing something foolish and having it pay off anyway through dumb luck. And even socially inept people can (usually) make friends and have productive conversations.
The fighter should go with the tracker and use "Aid Another" to give +2 to the survival roll. Also, the tracker is the most likely one to run into trouble, and have use for some extra muscle.
This is a very situational question.
In general, a fighter would be smart to invest in skill ranks, to have more opportunities to be useful out of combat. But even skill ranks don't replace player resourcefulness. They simply provide more avenues to apply that resourcefulness.
If you think the Fighter or Barbarian is just a "dumb goon" then show them the Warrior NPC class and ask them what makes their character something more than that. Their answer should give some ideas as to the "role" they can play.
In general, a fighter would be smart to invest in skill ranks, to have more opportunities to be useful out of combat. But even skill ranks don't replace player resourcefulness. They simply provide more avenues to apply that resourcefulness.
If you think the Fighter or Barbarian is just a "dumb goon" then show them the Warrior NPC class and ask them what makes their character something more than that. Their answer should give some ideas as to the "role" they can play.
"Investing in skill ranks" will only get you so far with 2 + Int + favored class bonus to invest. The fighter will need to specialize heavily to get any advantage out of said skills. Player resourcefulness will be more generally useful.
Try role-playing. Not everything needs to use a die roll. As Daw said, there's a difference between "useful" and "best".
Yup
I have a Brawler who has a Great Sense Motive, Perception, Acrobatics, and Intimidate. Not as good as other classes can get but enough to pass skill checks with a 60-70% chance.
I just role play her a lot out of combat. I have hired servants who pull her about in a rickshaw/wagon as she acts like a complete Diva. Only gets sweaty for a fight or Martial training. Everything else is basically beneath her. Including walking..which she highly protests doing any task she deems a waste of her time. Most the group gets a kick out of her behavior and the way the world reacts to a good dress lady saying she is an adventurer. No one believes her so it's very comical.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The problem with that is... the skill modifier still determines how the characters in-game react to your RP (possibly plus or minus a GM modifier.) If it didn't, there would be no need for that modifier. And if your RP is super-suave and convincing with a modifier of -3, you start getting into debates about whether you're actually playing the character or whether you've accurately modeled the character on paper.
"Just RP" isn't a solution for actually being useful.
There is a large number of GMs, that if the RP is really good the rolls hardly matter to them. The rule of Cool can apply.
In PFS that is different of course.
But It sure does beat the heck out of:
Player: I roll a Diplomacy
DM: What do you say?
Player: You know, this is bad and stuff. *rolls dice*
Slayers are interesting, because their main combat mechanic works outside of fights as well. That has tons of flavor.
Y'see- studied target only requires an action (move or swift later), and can be used infinitely. It adds bonuses to attack/damage, but also to various social skills (everything except for diplomacy by level 7). So you are incentivized to use it on every single NPC you talk to.
And the flavor comes from the fact that you look at each and every single person you meet.... with the exact same stare you give to the guy you want to stab in the kidneys. That is great for the jaded bounty hunter/thief type. You don't trust anyone, so you are guarded and wary of their words and actions.
Has no one played a lore warden fighter?
Or an eldritch guardian (maybe sage familiar)
The two archetypes stack and make for interesting Out of combat uses
Sure, but not all martial types offer those options, so it's more useful to answer the question of how to deal with characters that don't have them.
Also, they don't stack--both archetypes replace bravery.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Pretty much all martial classes except fighters don’t really have a problem with out of combat encounters. Rangers and slayers are flat out skill monkeys. Paladins excel as the face of the party. Barbarians and bloodragers do a decent job of scouting and wilderness survival. Cavaliers also have a decent number of skill points and a useful class skill list.
Even with fighters you can build a character that is not hopeless out of combat. The trick is to use some of your normal feats for non-combat. Most other classes are feat starved so they use every feat for combat. Fighters have plenty of feats so can afford to blow a couple on things besides combat. A human fighter with a 12 in both INT and WIS taking the alternative racial trait focused study can start with a perception roll of +11 at first level. Take the seeker trait to make perception a class skill, your first skill focus is perception and pick up the feat alertness as you first level feat. If you take the favored class bonus as a skill point you still have another 4 skill points to spend. Use your other trait to get sense motive as a class skill and you end up with a +8 in sense motive at first level. This makes your character the one who spots things. You could focus on bluff and disguise instead of perception and sense motive with similar results by changing the feats and stats.
Throw in a few magic items or even mundane items to further boost up your area of focus and you will be fine.
Do they have to be helpful or just fun? I've found that with the right combo of booze drugs and women, all mele characters can have "great" ideas! The trick is just to not die when your amazing idea leads to death and destruction of the whole party.
|
Has no one played a lore warden fighter?
Or an eldritch guardian (maybe sage familiar)
The two archetypes stack and make for interesting Out of combat usesSure, but not all martial types offer those options, so it's more useful to answer the question of how to deal with characters that don't have them.
Also, they don't stack--both archetypes replace bravery.
all of them have something
Barbarians can potentially get a mount that can be used for tracking and have 4 skills per levelRangers get that and more by default and have archetypes that can give trap making abilities
Paladins and swashbucklers get party face focus
Rogues get like all the skills
Do they have to be helpful or just fun? I've found that with the right combo of booze drugs and women, all mele characters can have "great" ideas! The trick is just to not die when your amazing idea leads to death and destruction of the whole party.
9_9
Has no one played a lore warden fighter?
Or an eldritch guardian (maybe sage familiar)
The two archetypes stack and make for interesting Out of combat usesSure, but not all martial types offer those options, so it's more useful to answer the question of how to deal with characters that don't have them.
Also, they don't stack--both archetypes replace bravery.
all of them have something
Barbarians can potentially get a mount that can be used for tracking and have 4 skills per level
Rangers get that and more by default and have archetypes that can give trap making abilities
Paladins and swashbucklers get party face focus
Rogues get like all the skills
And almost all fighter archetypes get whatever they can scrape together with their level feats and tiny skill pool.
Disclaimer: I *love* playing fighters as they are. But I have no illusions about their non-combat utility. They're fighters. They fight. Everything else is icing.
Some of those background skills DCs are . . . odd. Like "Navigate a ship in fair conditions" being DC 20. How many NPC sailors have a +10 in their profession so that they can take 10?
Non-spellcasters who put all their skill points into acrobatics, climb, ride etc. will have very limited applications outside combat, especially if their personalities don't lend themselves to being helpful. It's as much an issue with character design as anything at least at low levels. Later on spells take over some areas almost entirely, or are required to even use certain skills effectively.
Has no one played a lore warden fighter?
Or an eldritch guardian (maybe sage familiar)
The two archetypes stack and make for interesting Out of combat uses
Or even played with advanced armor/weapon training? Its only one build and it has copious story baggage but Heritor knight gives a reason to build a cha significant Fighter and that + AWT heavy blades gives you a max diplomacy, add in a human alt racial and you're diplomacying for up to 3 improvements.
One fighter build that comes with free utility is the Dazzling Display feat chain build. In order to make that build any good, you need high ranks (or max ranks) in Intimidate for the demoralizing effect.
As a consequence, you have high ranks in Intimidate, allowing the fighter to temporarily make someone friendly in exchange for later enmity... not entirely useless.
I slapped together a Human Fighter build [Dazzling Display chain] with high Charisma and the Focused Study alternate racial trait (gives Skill Focus at levels 1,8,16, instead of the Human any-feat at level 1).
1 (racial feat): Skill Focus Intimidate (making dazzling display more effective)
8 (racial feat): Skill Focus Know Planes
9 (9HD feat): Eldritch Heritage Abyssal (stuck with claws)
11 (11HD feat): Improved Eldritch Heritage Abyssal (STR++)
This creates a monstrous intimidator (good CHA, Skill Focus, max ranks... yeah I love it) who gets a great STR boost in the mid-high levels and adds flavor.
Or even played with advanced armor/weapon training? Its only one build and it has copious story baggage but Heritor knight gives a reason to build a cha significant Fighter and that + AWT heavy blades gives you a max diplomacy, add in a human alt racial and you're diplomacying for up to 3 improvements.Has no one played a lore warden fighter?
Or an eldritch guardian (maybe sage familiar)
The two archetypes stack and make for interesting Out of combat uses
Negotiations with a lightsaber longsword.
Everyone should invest in Perception even if their class doesn't get it. For the OP, the Fighter could be Half-Elf and get a +2 to Perception. He could still hang out in that bar and use his perception to listen to other bar patrons for any information that might lead to the said "Artefact" of Doom.
Some of those background skills DCs are . . . odd. Like "Navigate a ship in fair conditions" being DC 20. How many NPC sailors have a +10 in their profession so that they can take 10?
An entire crew (or even just the officers) making aid another checks makes that pretty easy.
The problem with that is... the skill modifier still determines how the characters in-game react to your RP (possibly plus or minus a GM modifier.) If it didn't, there would be no need for that modifier. And if your RP is super-suave and convincing with a modifier of -3, you start getting into debates about whether you're actually playing the character or whether you've accurately modeled the character on paper.
"Just RP" isn't a solution for actually being useful.
There is a large number of GMs, that if the RP is really good the rolls hardly matter to them. The rule of Cool can apply.
In PFS that is different of course.
But It sure does beat the heck out of:
Player: I roll a Diplomacy
DM: What do you say?
Player: You know, this is bad and stuff. *rolls dice*
This goes to show that roleplaying is only likely to work if the player hasn't dumped Charisma and/or Intelligence . . . .
Going back to the OP's example:
The fighter: "I'm going to talk to the local guards to see if they have any leads on the missing child" or "I'm going to intimidate (class skill!) some of the nearby unsavory types to see if they saw anything when the child disappeared."
You have to get over the fact that many of your party have more skills than you probably do. That's okay. The bard or wizard may not be in the right place at the right time. Even a partial success can contribute a social encounter. For example, your fighter could intimidate a thug into giving up the name of a witness who has gone into hiding. The wizard can divine the witness' location and, once found, the bard can use their winning ways to get them to tell their story. In that scenario, the fighter found the lead.
To bolster a weak Will save, a savvy fighter can start off with a 14 Wisdom and picks up Iron Will. In a similar vein, they can also have a 12 Charisma, throw favored class bonuses into skill points (a maxed Intimidate and a couple of languages like goblin and orc) and not be the social weak link of the party.
Has no one played a lore warden fighter?
Or an eldritch guardian (maybe sage familiar)
The two archetypes stack and make for interesting Out of combat uses
Lore Wardens got nerfed because they could be competent at more than 1 combat maneuver at a time.
If you choose to be in the bar anyway. Ask around in there. Tons of information to be had. You don't even need to "convince" people with charisma. Put that high Constitution as a fighter to use. Challenge them to a drinking game where you get information if you win and you buy their drinks if they win. If nothing else it will give you something to do. Even considering that, you will be given false information, but playing that false information like you got something really worth while is fun too.