Shargah-Katun

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1,484 posts. Alias of Kydeem de'Morcaine.


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Gruingar:

Male nagaji bloodrager (rageshaper) 3/sorcerer 1 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 15, 84, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 4 199)
CG Medium humanoid (reptilian)
Init +2; Senses low-light vision; Perception +7
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 19, touch 12, flat-footed 17 (+6 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 37 (4 HD; 1d6+3d10+11)
Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +3 (-2 vs. Charm or Compulsion effects if there's a promise of wealth or power, +1 trait bonus vs. mind-affecting effects); +2 vs. mind-affecting effects and poison, +2 vs. death
Defensive Abilities uncanny dodge; Resist issian
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft.
Melee mwk silver lucerne hammer +7 (1d12+4)
Ranged javelin +5 (1d6+3)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with masterwork silver lucerne hammer)
Special Attacks bloodrage (10 rounds/day), claws, claws (2, 1d4, 6 rounds/day)
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +4)
. . 1st (4/day)—endure elements, true strike
. . 0 (at will)—flare (DC 13), light, read magic, spark[APG] (DC 13)
. . Bloodline Draconic, Draconic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 17, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16
Base Atk +3; CMB +6; CMD 18
Feats Eschew Materials, Fey Foundling[ISWG], Manifested Blood[ACG]
Traits blood of dragons, issian, unseen but not undone
Skills Acrobatics +5 (+9 to jump), Intimidate +7, Knowledge (arcana) +6, Perception +7, Ride +5, Spellcraft +3, Use Magic Device +7; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Nagaji
SQ bloodline arcana (energy spells that match bloodline energy deal +1 damage per die), fast movement, power-hungry, resistant, serpent's sense
Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds; Other Gear mithral agile breastplate[APG], javelin (3), mwk silver lucerne hammer[APG], 105 pp, 2 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bloodline Arcana: Draconic (Ex) +1 damage per die for [Acid] spells.
Bloodrage (10 rounds/day) (Su) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Claws (6 rounds/day) (Su) 2 Claw atacks deal 1d4 damage
Claws (Ex) 2 Claw attacks deal 1d6 damage
Eschew Materials Cast spells without materials, if component cost is 1 gp or less.
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Fey Foundling Magical healing works better on you
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Manifested Blood (3 rounds) +5 to elemental resistance. Foe takes 2 dam for each nat/unarmed att vs. you.
Power-Hungry -2 vs. Will saves if the effect's creator promises wealth or power
Resistant (Ex) +2 racial bonus to saves vs. mind-affecting effects and poison.
Serpent's Sense (Ex) +2 racial bonus on Handle Animal checks against reptiles.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed.
--------------------

personality:
I am the reincarnation of the great dragon de'Morcaine. He that was the paragon and prince of dragons. The direct personal representative of Apsu to the peoples of Golarion.

I will lead you in the conflict ahead to make a place were all people can live in harmony as they properly revere the dragons that make life worthwhile.

Gruingar thinks of himself as a great general and leader. However, he really isn't that clever or really much of a professional. While he considers various tactics, he always seems to decide that the best tactic is to charge forward and slash his way through the opposition.
Basically he intends to eventually rule the city-state which will be dedicated to the superiority of dragons. However, he is in no rush to necessarily be the ruler right away. Since he believes himself to be the reincarnation of the avatar of the dragon god, he will "obviously" live forever and will just outlast all you short lived folks whose help he needs for the moment.
Even if made ruler right this minute, he would be largely a figurehead. You could probably talk him into almost anything if you can come up with even a half-assed reason why the dragons would benefit.

He is switch hitting caster/melee heading toward Dragon Disciple. He is currently built as leaning more toward melee. If the group ends up with plenty of melee, he works just as well with a slight adjustment toward caster.
I can almost always post at least once a day and try to check the status at least a few times a day.


I will reapply to this second table with Gruingar the draconic sorcerer/ bloodrager. Having some difficulty with my PC atm though. Hopefully I can get the details up here pretty soon.


Dang! Just looking in above and realized the board ate my second post for Gruingar. I had a moderately lengthy in-character exposition about his motivations. I don't think I can repeat it, especially on my phone.

Basically he intends to eventually rule the city-state which will be dedicated to the superiority of dragons. However, he is in no rush to necessarily be the ruler right away. Since he believes himself to be the reincarnation of the avatar of the dragon god, he will "obviously" live forever and will just outlast all you short lived folks whose help he needs for the moment.
Even if made ruler right this minute, he would be largely a figurehead. You could probably talk him into almost anything if you can come up with even a half-assed reason why the dragons would benefit.


GM Fuzzfoot wrote:

...

@ElterEgo - You asked "Will the cleric of Pharisma be too upset if I take control of the evil undead to use them up against the enemy?" Yes.
...

Ok, not a problem. Was not a major part of his build and had nothing to do with his personality. Will just drop Control Undead for a different spell.


Here is a rough build for Gruingar. Haven't bought all the gear yet. Might adjust the spell selection a bit.

Looks like the oracle and cleric are covering buff and support spells pretty well. So I thought you could use some offensive casting. Howling agony, control undead, magic missile, and ray of enfeeblement can make things much more difficult for the opposition.

Gruingar crunchy bits:

Dhampir sorcerer 6 (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 2 89)
N Medium humanoid (dhampir)
Hero Points 2
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +13
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 10 (+3 Dex)
hp 32 (6d6+6)
Fort +5, Ref +7, Will +8; +2 trait bonus vs. fear effects, +2 vs. disease and mind-affecting effects
Defensive Abilities negative energy affinity; DR 5/lethal; Resist cold 5, undead resistance
Weaknesses light sensitivity
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 1st; concentration +6)
. . 3/day—detect undead, touch of fatigue (DC 17)
Bloodline Spell-Like Abilities (CL 6th; concentration +11)
. . 8/day—grave touch (3 rounds)
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 6th; concentration +11)
. . 3rd (4/day)—howling agony[UM] (DC 20)
. . 2nd (6/day)—command undead (DC 19), false life, mirror image
. . 1st (8/day)—ant haul[APG] (DC 16), cause fear (DC 18), chill touch (DC 18), liberating command[UC], mage armor, magic missile, reduce person (DC 16)
. . 0 (at will)—detect magic, detect poison, disrupt undead, drench[UM] (DC 15), jolt[UM], message, prestidigitation
. . Bloodline Undead
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 7, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 21
Base Atk +3; CMB +1; CMD 14
Feats Eschew Materials, Greater Spell Focus (necromancy), Spell Focus (necromancy), Varisian Tattoo[ISWG]
Traits making good on promises, seeker
Skills Appraise +5, Bluff +11, Fly +7, Handle Animal +6, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (arcana) +5, Knowledge (engineering) +2, Knowledge (geography) +2, Knowledge (history) +2, Knowledge (nobility) +2, Knowledge (religion) +10, Linguistics +7, Perception +13, Spellcraft +10, Use Magic Device +9; Racial Modifiers +2 Bluff, +2 Perception
Languages Common, Hallit, Kelish, Necril, Osiriani, Shoanti, Varisian, Vudrani
SQ bloodline arcana (corporeal undead affected by humanoid-affecting spells), hero points, resist level drain
Combat Gear potion of cure moderate wounds; Other Gear cloak of resistance +2, handy haversack, headband of alluring charisma +2, page of spell knowledge (mage armor)[UE], page of spell knowledge (reduce person)[UE], 370 pp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bloodline Arcana: Undead (Ex) Formerly humanoid corporeal undead are humanoids for your mind-affecting spells.
Damage Reduction (5/lethal) You have Damage Reduction against non-lethal damage
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Eschew Materials Cast spells without materials, if component cost is 1 gp or less.
Grave Touch (3 rds, 8/day) (Sp) Melee touch attack leaves target shaken for 3 rounds or frightened for 1 round.
Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy) +1 to the Save DC of spells from one school.
Hero Points Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Light Sensitivity (Ex) Dazzled as long as remain in bright light.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Negative Energy Affinity (Ex) You are alive, but react to positive/negative energy as though you were undead.
Resist Level Drain (Ex) Negative levels don't impose penalties or become permanent, but still kill if exceed HD.
Spell Focus (Necromancy) Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.
Undead Resistance +2 bonus to saves vs. disease and mind affecting effects.
Varisian Tattoo (Necromancy) Spells from chosen school gain +1 caster level.
--------------------

Gruingar soft bits:

I arrived to late to pay my respects to the Great Man. Upon finally arriving, I meditated over his final resting place for a time. Saying my final goodbyes. I wonder what progress he made in his research for my family. I will probably never know.
Then I learned that some of those present at his interment may be continuing his work and research. The stories I was told are contradictory and vague. However the possibility remains, maybe they do have some of his written works or the knowledge that he had gleaned. I will have to find them and see what can be learned.

Gruingar hates undead. It is really the only thing he is very passionate about. Undeath has warped his body, soul, and magic. It is a blight upon his family. If it could be excised from the world, it would be a near perfect world no matter the cost.

Long-Term Goal:
He hopes to somehow remove the undeath from himself and his family, removing the taint so they can become normal humans again.

Dark Secret:
His family became Dhamir when his great grandmother tried to become a lich by sacrifing her entire family line. During the ritual, his father ended up killing her. The necromatic surge of the interupted magic permanently altered everyone present at the clan home.

Lorrimar was one of the few outside the family that knew of their shame. He was doing some research for Gruingar, trying to find a way to remove the taint from the bloodline.


Sounds interesting. I kinda like the idea of a themed group. It would depend on which AP though.
- A bunch of reptilian PC's making a city/nation to revere dragons in Kinmaker.
- A bunch of Fey in Council of Thieves.
- A squad of religious zealots fighting off the aberration invasion in Strange Aeons.


Hello again GM_Fuzzfoot. Long time no see. This is Hadanka from Bones of Biting Ants. ;)

Level 6, correct? VMC, background skills, hero points?

Will the cleric of Pharisma be too upset if I take control of the evil undead to use them up against the enemy?


Hello again GM_Fuzzfoot. Long time no see. ;)

What level? VMC, background skills, hero points? What deity are the divine casters using (don't want something that conflicts too much)?


Here is Gruingar de'Morcaine. Bloodrager Sorcerer heading for Dragon Disciple. I haven't bought all his standard gear yet. That will be quick if chosen. I took a Drawback for a 3rd Trait. If you don't want drawbacks it isn't a problem to drop one of the traits.

Gruingar:

Male nagaji bloodrager (rageshaper) 3/sorcerer 1 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 15, 84, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 4 199)
CG Medium humanoid (reptilian)
Init +2; Senses low-light vision; Perception +7
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 19, touch 12, flat-footed 17 (+6 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 37 (4 HD; 1d6+3d10+11)
Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +3 (-2 vs. Charm or Compulsion effects if there's a promise of wealth or power, +1 trait bonus vs. mind-affecting effects); +2 vs. mind-affecting effects and poison, +2 vs. death
Defensive Abilities uncanny dodge; Resist issian
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft.
Melee mwk silver lucerne hammer +7 (1d12+4)
Ranged javelin +5 (1d6+3)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with masterwork silver lucerne hammer)
Special Attacks bloodrage (10 rounds/day), claws, claws (2, 1d4, 6 rounds/day)
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +4)
. . 1st (4/day)—endure elements, true strike
. . 0 (at will)—flare (DC 13), light, read magic, spark[APG] (DC 13)
. . Bloodline Draconic, Draconic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 17, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16
Base Atk +3; CMB +6; CMD 18
Feats Eschew Materials, Fey Foundling[ISWG], Manifested Blood[ACG]
Traits blood of dragons, issian, unseen but not undone
Skills Acrobatics +5 (+9 to jump), Intimidate +7, Knowledge (arcana) +6, Perception +7, Ride +5, Spellcraft +3, Use Magic Device +7; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Nagaji
SQ bloodline arcana (energy spells that match bloodline energy deal +1 damage per die), fast movement, power-hungry, resistant, serpent's sense
Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds; Other Gear mithral agile breastplate[APG], javelin (3), mwk silver lucerne hammer[APG], 105 pp, 2 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bloodline Arcana: Draconic (Ex) +1 damage per die for [Acid] spells.
Bloodrage (10 rounds/day) (Su) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Claws (6 rounds/day) (Su) 2 Claw atacks deal 1d4 damage
Claws (Ex) 2 Claw attacks deal 1d6 damage
Eschew Materials Cast spells without materials, if component cost is 1 gp or less.
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Fey Foundling Magical healing works better on you
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Manifested Blood (3 rounds) +5 to elemental resistance. Foe takes 2 dam for each nat/unarmed att vs. you.
Power-Hungry -2 vs. Will saves if the effect's creator promises wealth or power
Resistant (Ex) +2 racial bonus to saves vs. mind-affecting effects and poison.
Serpent's Sense (Ex) +2 racial bonus on Handle Animal checks against reptiles.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed.
--------------------

I am the reincarnation of the great dragon de'Morcaine. He that was the paragon and prince of dragons. The direct personal representative of Apsu to the peoples of Golarion.

I will lead you in the conflict ahead to make a place were all people can live in harmony as they properly revere the dragons that make life possible.

{{ Gruingar thinks of himself as a great general and leader. However, he really isn't that clever or really much of a professional. While he considers various tactics, he always seems to decide that the best tactic is to charge forward and slash his way through the opposition. He is heading toward Dragon Disciple. }}


That's too slow for me to stay involved. I will withdraw.


Have some ideas. What about the use of hero points, VMC, or background skills?


Ok, I could read the old thread on my laptop. Not sure what the problem was with trying to read it on my phone.

Quote:
... but does try to control the ones encountered? ...

from the old thread, it sounds as if it would be out of character for the group to accept someone even controlling the undead for 'good' reasons. So I will drop that concept.

Getting a little closer to a build and personality I like for the evoker.

Frizell:

Male ratfolk evoker 4 (Pathfinder RPG Adventurer's Guide 63, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 3 231)
N Small humanoid (ratfolk)
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +7
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 14, touch 14, flat-footed 11 (+3 Dex, +1 size)
hp 26 (4d6+8)
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee tailblade +2 (1d2-1)
Special Attacks intense spells (+2 damage)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 4th; concentration +2)
. . 3/day—dancing lights
Arcane School Spell-Like Abilities (CL 4th; concentration +9)
. . 8/day—force missile (1d4+2)
Evoker Spells Prepared (CL 4th; concentration +9)
. . 2nd—blur, false life, pilfering hand[UC], sonic scream[ACG] (2, DC 18)
. . 1st—detect secret doors, heightened awareness[ACG], liberating command[UC], magic missile (2), reduce person (DC 16), vanish[APG] (DC 16)
. . 0 (at will)—detect magic, detect poison, disrupt undead, prestidigitation
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 21, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +2; CMB +0; CMD 13
Feats Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (evocation), Varisian Tattoo[ISWG]
Traits bauble fascination, havoc of the society, trap finder
Skills Acrobatics +4 (+0 to jump), Appraise +9, Bluff -2 (-6 to affect animals), Craft (alchemy) +11, Diplomacy -2 (-6 to affect animals), Disable Device +9, Disguise -2 (-6 to affect animals), Fly +9, Intimidate -2 (-6 to affect animals), Knowledge (arcana) +12, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge (engineering) +9, Knowledge (geography) +9, Knowledge (history) +9, Knowledge (local) +10, Knowledge (nature) +10, Knowledge (nobility) +9, Knowledge (planes) +10, Knowledge (religion) +10, Linguistics +9, Perception +7, Sleight of Hand +4, Spellcraft +12, Use Magic Device +8 (+4 to affect animals); Racial Modifiers +2 Craft (alchemy), +2 Perception, +2 Use Magic Device
Languages Aklo, Common, Draconic, Goblin, Necril, Orc, Undercommon
SQ arcane bond (bonded item only), cornered fury[ARG], paranoid, unnatural[ARG]
Combat Gear potion of cure moderate wounds; Other Gear tailblade[ARG], bonded item only, handy haversack, wayfinder[ISWG], wizard starting spellbook, 318 pp, 9 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Arcane Bond (bonded item only) (1/day) (Sp) Use object to cast any spell in your spellbook. Without it, Concentration required to cast spells (DC20 + spell level).
Cornered Fury +2 melee attack and AC if no conscious ally in 30 ft.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Force Missile (1d4+2, 8/day) (Sp) As a standard action, magic missile strikes a foe.
Intense Spells (+2 damage) (Su) Evocation spells deal listed extra damage.
Paranoid Aid Another DC 15 for attempts to help you.
Spell Focus (Evocation) Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.
Unnatural -4 to CHA skills vs. animals, +2 Dodge AC against animals. Animal starting attitude one step worse.
Varisian Tattoo (Evocation) Spells from chosen school gain +1 caster level.
Wrath (Evocation) Evokers revel in the raw power of magic, and can use it to create and destroy with shocking ease.
--------------------

background:
Frizell has recently quit the Pathfinder Society. He still has his Wayfinder, though he was supposed to turn it in before he left. But then he didn't exactly tell them he was leaving.

Couldn't stand that he had repeatedly risked his life to recover some valuable relic and then had to turn it over to the society. As far as he could tell all they did was store it in the vaults. It might as well have never been recovered!
If they are making use of the relics, they certainly aren't telling anyone. Which makes you wonder what they might be using them for?!?

Now the paranoid and secretive ratfolk has traveled to Wati to find his own relics and decide for himself how they are best to be used.


Tried to read up on the history of the group through your links. However, at least on my phone, the text keeps jumping around as the ads change. Making it very difficult to read. I will try again on my laptop this evening when I get home.

Any races or classes you don't want to deal with? Hero points? Background skills? VMC?

I'm not really feeling the evoker yet. Still working on a personality I like.

Would the current group be unhappy with a dhampir necromancer that does NOT animate undead, but does try to control the ones encountered? Obviously don't want to build that if it is undesirable.


Hmm...
I kinda have an idea for an arcanist evoker that mostly uses sonic and force spells. So many undead are resistant to one energy type or another. But almost nothing is resistant to force or sonic energy.

or...
The other option could be a 'good' necromancer that tries to control the undead to be useful and not dangerous to the innocent.

I didn't see build rules in the first post. Did I just miss them?


ShroudedInLight wrote:

...

First level is a level in Sorcerer, used to make it our favored class ...

I can't remember ever seeing a requirement that your first level has to be your favored class. If it is true, could you tell me where it says that?


Ok, I'm going to approach this a bit different. If I am building a DD, I want to get as much dragon as possible. So I would minimize even slight dips into non-bloodline classes. I also wouldn't really even consider being a weapon using build. Your a dragon. Dragons fight with claws, teeth, and magic. Period.

First, a question for your GM. If a PC is draconic bloodrager and draconic sorcerer (they are required to be the same), will DD advance the bloodline for both? RAW isn't completely clear. The GM's I've talked to and the forums seem 70/30 split. With most saying yes.

Second, another question for your GM. Same question about the Robe of Arcane Heritage.

If your GM says yes, then start with at least 1 level of rageshaper draconic bloodrager.

Even if your GM says no to either or both, consider starting with a level of bloodrager. The BaB, hit points, rage, and extra rounds of claws really help you survive and function in the low levels. Plus you will eventually be a raging dragon in combat!

There are 2 ways to do this.

Switch hitter using both spells and melee as appropriate. For this you take 1 level of bloodrager, 4 sorcerer, 10 DD, then the final 5 sorcerer.

Really just a melee machine with the spell casting is mostly just for buffs. This is 4 levels of bloodrager, 1 sorcerer, 10 lDD, then the final 5 bloodrager.


I don't know how much my GM has modified things. And I don't want to spoil any of the fun for you.

In our Strange Aeons campaign, every single character that doesn't have a very good will save and/or significant constant bonuses against fear and/or mind control, has had an extremely rough time.

Every character has died off or retired/replaced with one that does have good will saves or at least those 2 types of bonuses. (Some we had to kill ourselves.)

Fear saves and mind control saves in the mid 20's are quite common (we are currently level 9).


Ok, thanks folks.
I was just kinda curious.


I think I would like to give it a try. In all honesty, I've mostly just heard bad things about PF2. However, I have a hard time believing that it is really as bad as 'they' say. Plus I am aware that (at least in our area) PF1 has been losing out to DnD5 for the new players. So I would like to see how it works in actual usage for myself.


I have a couple ideas I'm looking into, but I have a few questions.

1) Please ask your group what kinds of roles they are anticipating. I would hate to have two of us aiming at the 'king' such that someone ends up with hurt feelings. (Almost as bad would be if no one wants to be king.)
2) Anyone of them want to be long time friends / relative / partners who would take teamwork feats together?
3) Looks like everyone has fairly light armor. Are you folks planning on a stealthy group? I can make a stealthy frontliner if so.
4) I see you already have one 'pet' classes like cavalier, hunter, or druid? How would you feel about another?
5) You said you have a preference for Core races. How would you feel about a non-core race that is pretending to be a core race. Tengu, Tieflings, Aasimar, and a few others have things they can take to seem like humans. Not in any plans at this time, just thinking of possibilities.
6) Do you allow VMC and/or Hero Points?


MrStr4ng3 wrote:
GM Gustavef wrote:
The Module is for levels 7-9
I'd like to play but do not have anyone that level, are you open to a pregen?

I can not confirm since I haven't played yet or GM'd it. But I have been told that it is too tough for the pregens. They just aren't built well enough for this challenge.


To be honest, as a GM I am kinda stingy.

I generally don't give as much as the WBL table expects. Players usually insist on at least 20 point buy, we usually have 5 or 6 players, most of them are at least halfway decent at building a powerful PC, most of them are pretty experienced.
I've found with a group like this, rich PC's tend to get sloppy. They are so powerful, they are going to win/survive even if they use horrible tactics. If one happens to get killed, they can easily afford a raise. So every thing becomes charge & blast. Then they get to a tough boss fight and don't really know how to use their characters. They charge & blast and find themselves losing. It is somehow 'unfair' that they are finally being challenged.
If they aren't so fiscally overloaded, they have a much higher tendency to use some tactics. Finding out what works and what doesn't. They learn how to best utilize their PC's capabilities better.

Boss fights are usually pretty much on 'standard' target.
Non-boss fights around 50% of standard.
Though I tend to throw in some extra consumables. Partially charged wands. Scrolls of odd spells. Equipment of special materials. Etc...

I also throw in the occasional invented magic item that might be a real lifesaver but you have to be careful with it.
Say, a locket that turns the user incorporeal for d4+4 rounds. However, when used it drains d4 from a random ability. Will save for only 1 point of drain.
Or a double weapon with the vicious property on both ends. But the vicious does greater than std damage to the wielder. If your not careful a flurry of strikes could hurt yourself significantly.
Things like that.

Then as we are playing, if the PC's seem to be struggling (not caused by their own stupidity). I add cash to the next few encounters to allow a little better gear without it getting out of hand.


I would say you are a bit too focused on offense at the expense of defense.
Not your AC. That is more than sufficient for a melee guy. As others have said, your saves. It is boring but many PC's get a lot more mileage out of Iron Will than they do just some more damage.

I know you said gear is low in your campaign. Is that all gear or just high level gear? Does anyone in the group craft anything, like a wizard with Scribe Scroll? Any NPC's that you can bargain for gear rather than gold?
Usually when I play a fighter or barbarian, I end up buying a bunch of little stuff for the casters to use on me.
Wand protection from evil (for that second save vs mind control).
Scrolls of remove fear, remove paralysis, resist energy, etc...


I haven't, but a friend tried a while back for a couple of AP's he had on the shelf.
There are more complications.
- AP's are usually written assuming a party of 4 PC's. Groups often have anywhere from 3-7 PC's.
- They are also written assuming a group won't hit every single side quest. But most groups do try to get them all.
- Some groups end up inventing their own side quests for additional unwritten profit.
- Most players also try to con, loot steal, bargain, embezel, ransom, and/or extort more money than the scenario plans.
- Some PC's will take a bit (or a lot) of item crafting.
- Depending on the group, a PC might die and the player brings in a new PC rather than being raised. Leaving the previous gear as a net gain.

Given all that, any sort of detailed analysis is really impossible and pointless. All you can really do is play it and see how it goes. Adding in a bit here and there if it seems necessary.
Generally we find book 1 to leave the PC's a bit poor. By the end, they are well above.


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born_of_fire wrote:

In coming on 35 years of playing, I have encountered only a small handful of characters that didn’t fear dying. ...

Or you spend wealth which could have been better spent elsewhere on bringing it back and restoring the built in penalties for death. For our group members, these are enough of a deterrent. I have not personally experienced any reason to make death meaningful by artificially creating circumstances that make surviving more difficult or having a character die more punitive.

Various experiences. I have seen quite a few players that didn't care if their characters died. They always have 2-5 backup PC's ready and waiting. And if they bring in the backup PC, they don't even have to worry about the cost of the rez. {shrug} Not my favorite players, but they are out there.

Personally, I always have a few backup characters (just cause I lke making them). I also get invested in my PC's and don't want to see them fail. However, for some of them, I don't necessarily consider a heroic death to be a a fail.
And I personally hate it if the GM fudges the dice rolls or uses some stupid trope to make sure we don't die. No PC risk, no fun.

That said...

We have rarely had an actual TPK, (except in something like Raveloft). Even then it was usually due to a GM error. Once I threw an NPC ambush together pretty quickly. It had quite a few opponents picking their ground, but they were also much lower level than the PC's so I didn't think too much about it. I didn't really realize how well the various abilities complimented each other in actual play. All of a sudden in round 3 or 4 I asked the guy keeping track of the initiatives who was next and he said, "Uh I think we're all dead or unconscious." I was like "What? Really?!?" When the TPK is due to my mistake as GM, I would always ask the group what they want to do. We all eventually decided to just pretend that night of gameplay was just a bad dream. I took the next week to plan something completely different (and a little more well thought out).

Usually at least 1 PC has the opportunity to get away. At high levels, he may have to sell most of his gear, but he can get the cash for true resurrection if needed. Then the group needs to be very careful (and play a bit smarter) going back with what they learned the first time to get their gear and accomplish the original mission.

If nothing else, at high levels I "make plans" as a character when doing something stupidly dangerous. Make a deal with a church that if my body shows up in the next X days, raise and heal it. Then have a contingency teleport to send my body there if I die.

But if the party dies, well then the party dies. We decide as a group what to do next. Usually the group would decide something like 'a bunch of friends and relatives decide to go avenge their deaths.'


Most of the really successful mounted combatants I've seen in PFS have been small chatacters on medium mounts.
Unless you are careful about what scenarios you play, a lot of them do not have room for a horse.
Charge lanes can still be a problem unless you stay in the front and pump your initiative. One solution I saw was a gecko lizard that charged on the walls and ceilings. Another is a flying mount, but you would have to switch to hunter or druid for that.
Whatever, don't be that guy that has nothing except charge attack. There used to be a guy in our area that would literally do nothing in an encounter except hold his action until he had a clear charge lane at the biggest opponent. Some fights he never took any actions at all. Then berated us for not giving him a charge lane. The archer rogue and caster cleric were serving as front line melee while he did nothing. Don't be that guy. [/rant]

As to the original post, I think you are trying to do too much with the wrong chassis. Cavaliers are great, but not really designed for support or social skills. Those sound like they are your main priority.


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Thank you for doing this. I am not new to PbP however, so good luck and have fun all of you!


TheCalicoKid wrote:
... I get the sense that he's of the mentality that "if you're not doing damage, your not contributing."

I would say this is the core of the issue. Some players just hate being utility/support characters. Nothing wrong with that. I personally like it, but not everyone does.

Sometimes if the whole rest of the group is DPR builds, you just don't feel like you belong in the group. They don't really need your buffs and they aren't concerned with trying anything but battering their way through every encounter. (Not saying it is true, but it can feel like that.)

Ask if the GM will let him modify or even completely rebuild his PC. When I am GM, I give everyone a single free retcon-rebuild. Sometimes you just try something and it just isn't right for you or doesn't work out the way you thought it would.
If the GM doesn't like that, there is the retraining system in UC.

It is certainly possible to build very deadly cleric casters. With the right stats, feats, archtypes, domains, metamagics, and/or magic items - you can get your spell penetration rolls and spell DC's through the roof with SoS spells that can completely shut down or kill the competition before the DPR types even get going.

If he wants that, start a new thread asking for advice on building a killer caster cleric.
Maybe he wants a more martial cleric. That is a very reasonable build. I personally think if that is your aim, it is probably better to go warpriest. But it is certainly doable.
Maybe he doesn't even want to be a divine caster.

Really I suppose the way to start, is ask him what he wants the PC to do. Then we can suggest lots of ways to build a PC that does that.


My work responsibilities just changed. I'm not going to have any spare time in the near future. Afraid I will have to withdraw from consideration for this campaign. Sorry to miss it.


GM Redelia wrote:
It really depends on what the pet is doing. Cute little familiars who just hang out, being cute, provide static bonuses and maybe make perception checks I'm OK either way. If the pet/companion is attacking, I prefer they have their own alias and their attacks are there....

Neither of them are for combat. being the nice talky face or the sneaky scout. But not combat. I summon creatures, have a few spells, and smack with my earth breaker for combat.


GM Toothy wrote:

...

@ElterAgo: If you wish to take a variant aasimar ability, let me know and I'll roll for you. You won't be able to go back once I roll. Also, you'd be able to take either this variant ability or a variant heritage (agathion-blooded, angel-blooded, etc), not both. ...

If it is roll for the variant ability, I won't take it. There are really only a couple I might want to take. Still undecided on the heritage, but probably not since that would preclude the 'halo' daylight abilities later. If I did, it would be the Lawbringer heritage.

GM Toothy wrote:

...

At this moment, I'm far more interested in your background than in your crunch, so I'll take a look and double check it later. So Farish is an aasimar. How old is he? What are the physical signs of his heritage? Is he aware that he is an aasimar (unless he is really young, he should be)? ...

Age I put at 37. If I recall correctly Aasimar mature a little slower but that still gives him plenty of time to train. His eyes are startling violet color and when he's been in the sun to get a tan, his skin looks almost like it is covered in bronze. Yes, he is aware that he is an Aasimar. That is part of why he keeps trying to get his father to open up about his mother. Since his father is plain vanilla human, surely it comes form his mother's side of the family (or maybe not).

GM Toothy wrote:

...

About this unnamed caretaker, I want to know more about him, since the is really important for your character. Who he is (both in story and class - cleric/paladin/inquisitor)? Why he came to Kenabres to tend this shrine to Ragathiel? I ask this because Ragathiel's major focus is to fight against Hell, not the Abyss. Why his father decided to put Farish under the care of this caretaker? If he wished for Farish to join the guard, why not put him under the care of the Abadarian church or any other religion that? Why he choose to put Farish under the wing of a religion that preached about going to war against evil... go to war, thus crossing the border into the Worldwound, and not defend Mendev? And why this unnamed caretaker was not a fighter himself? ...

The Caretaker: I intentionally left this vague in case you want to do anything with it. Farish certainly just thinks of him as the old caretaker. Hasn't really dawned on him yet that a simple caretaker would not have been able to teach him all he needs to be a heroic warrior against evil.

I think of him as a retired cleric/paladin/inquisitor/warpriest that realizes he is too old to continue the fight personally. So he seeks to train the next generation of heroes. He doesn't want to give his name because he doesn't want to be recognized and have his fame possibly eclipse that of any new pupils. He came to the shrine in Kenabres since this is a place obviously in need of heroes.

I had not determined the motivations of his father. Location could be convenient. Cost less since not as popular of a deity. Maybe an after hours drinking pal of his father. But he didn't think of it as an issue, because his son would certainly join the garrison like his dad. Because that's what sons do, right.

Well, I certainly don't have as much of the background info on Galrion and its faiths as you. I thought Ragathiel's focus was helping people to become heroes for whatever need. Don't remember where I read that though. I don't remember seeing anything about a focus on fighting devils. If I'm missing too much info on Ragathield, I could easily change to another good deity that preaches taking the fight to the enemy.

GM Toothy wrote:

...

Farish is an inquisitor. How he became an inquisitor? Much like a cleric and a paladin, an inquisitor requires training, differently than an oracle. A cleric is not simply someone who read a holy book and started to perform miracles... it studied in some church for a long time. A paladin and an inquisitor took even a step forward. They are 'special units'. Inquisitors are the one in charge of doing what the cleric and the paladin can't. If he was trained by this caretaker, it would take years. Does his father was not aware of this? Why this caretaker would train Farish as an inquisitor, and not as a cleric or paladin? The 3rd crusader was mostly an inquisition and it is regarded to this day as a failure and a shame to the name of Mendev and Iomedae... is Farish aware of this? How does he feels being an inquisitor?...

He has had plenty of time to train with the caretaker as well as his father over the years. (Rank in prof soldier and he is reasonably good combatant.) People don't know about the 'inquisitor class.' To his father, he was being trained to use weapons, defend himself, know about good and evil, know about the enemies they face from the Worldwound, enough education to even become an officer in the garrison someday.

Similarly Farish doesn't think of himself as an inquisitor. He is a fledgling hero off to fight evil in the name of holy Ragathiel. In order to fight evil you have to be able to find it, figure out what it is planning, and tear down those plans.
That's why I, as a player, picked inquisitor. Paladin, cleric, and warpriest just don't have the skills to figure out much of anything. Yes, the paladin has detect evil. In my opinion too many players use a ping on the evil-dar as an excuse for murder-hobo. In my opinion, that should only give you some suspicions on who to investigate more. I personally RL know quite a few people that I would have classified as evil and could easily be high enough level (expert or aristocrat maybe?) to give a ping. But that doesn't necessarily mean they have done anything to justify murder-hobo.
Yes, they do have a few spells that can work. But you have very limited spells for many levels. You can use your brain all day. Smart warrior against evil. Though I admit that the paladin and warpriest are much better at the destroying of evil if someone else has found it.

GM Toothy wrote:

...

Farish is a sin eater. Does he intends on devouring the sins of demons, beings composed entirely of sin? Once a demon dies, its soul doesn't go to the Abyss, but instead is lost into the Maelstrom. What is he usefulness of purging a demon from sin? ...

I was more thinking of the sin eater aspect as trying to redeem those souls that have strayed from the path and are currently serving the demons. If that doesn't work for this campaign, just let me know.

GM Toothy wrote:

...

Farish wants to fight the demons. A couple demons are able to slip through the Wardstones, but to really bring the fight to them, one needs to cross the border. Have he done it yet? If no, why not? ...

No, he has not yet crossed the border. He is just starting out as a brand spanking new fledgling hero. (Otherwise he wouldn't be a 1st level PC with zero xp. {wink})


GM Toothy, for the variant Aasimar abilities on page 18-19 of Blood of Angels, would you require rolling for an ability or can I just choose one?

Ok, here is a mostly complete version (at level 1).

Farishtadan Qutulish:

Male aasimar inquisitor (sin eater) of Ragathiel 1 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 38, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 7, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 46)
NG Medium outsider (native)
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +9
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 16, touch 10, flat-footed 16 (+4 armor, +2 shield)
hp 10 (1d8+2)
Fort +4, Ref +0, Will +5; +2 vs. [evil]
Resist acid 7, cold 7, electricity 7
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee bastard sword +2 (1d10+2/19-20) or
. . morningstar +2 (1d8+2)
Ranged sling +0 (1d4+2)
Special Attacks judgment 1/day
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 1st; concentration +2)
. . 1/day—daylight
Inquisitor (Sin Eater) Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +4)
. . 1st (2/day)—bless, detect demon
. . 0 (at will)—detect magic, guidance, sift[APG], stabilize
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 12
Base Atk +0; CMB +2; CMD 12
Feats Angelic Blood[ARG]
Traits clergy member, touched by divinity, unscathed
Skills Acrobatics -5 (-9 to jump), Diplomacy +7 (+5 vs. Creatures that threaten, accuse, or challenge you and haven't apologized), Heal +7, Intimidate +2, Knowledge (planes) +4, Knowledge (religion) +4, Linguistics +1, Perception +9, Profession (soldier) +7, Sense Motive +8 (+6 vs. Creatures that threaten, accuse, or challenge you and haven't apologized); Racial Modifiers +2 Diplomacy, +2 Perception
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common
SQ eat sin, monster lore +3, pride, stern gaze +1
Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds; Other Gear hide armor, heavy wooden shield, bastard sword, morningstar, sling with 10 sling bullets, backpack, bandolier[UE], belt pouch, cleric's vestments, wooden holy symbol of Ragathiel, 1 pp, 5 gp, 4 sp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Angelic Blood +2 saves vs. evil effects, to stabilize while dying, and 1 damage to evil or undead if bleeding.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Eat Sin 1d8+1 (Sp) 1 min, eat sins of adjacent corpse to heal self. Rush as full rd for half benefit.
Energy Resistance, Acid (7) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Acid attacks.
Energy Resistance, Cold (7) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (7) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Judgment (1/day) (Su) Variable bonuses increase as the combat continues.
Monster Lore +3 (Ex) +3 to Knowledge checks when identifying the weaknessess of creatures.
Pride -2 to diplomacy and sense motive vs. those who threaten, accuse, or challenge you, until they apologize
Stern Gaze +1 (Ex) +1 to Sense Motive and Intimidate.
--------------------
Farish was rased by his father Deltan, a garrison soldier in Kenabres. His mother had either left or dies. His father was never clear which. Everytime he asked about her, he got a different (usually incoherent) answer.
Since his father was usually on duty, so he often dropped his son off to be watched by the caretaker at the shrine to Ragathiel. The old man (who insited he wasn't important enough to give out his name) tought him the basics of his education and the tenants of the faith as understood by those who follow Ragathiel.
Farish has always felt a pull and calling to the shrine. Though his father tried hard to convince him to join the garrison and defend the city from the demons out of the World Wound, that was too passive for Farish. He has felt the drive grow only stronger to take the conflict to the demons. The only way to make the city truly safe from the demons is to drive them off of Golarion. (This atitude has caused some conflict between his father and the old caretaker.)
So he's gathered up what meger supplies his father and the caretaker were able to provide and set out to see where Ragathiel leads him.

Might still make a few very minor adjustments. Like changing the Member of the Clergy trait. Maybe an Aasimar heritage. A couple of cheap items of equipment. Nothing to majorly change his build or personality.


GM Toothy, for the variant Aasimar abilities on page 18-19 of Blood of Angels, would you require rolling for an ability or can I just choose one?

ScorchedOne wrote:
ElterAgo wrote:

To other potential applicants coming along.

Anyone interested in making 'set' of PC's? Relatives, friends, or co-workers whose abilities compliment each other, possibly including teamwork feats.

I would potentially be interested. I see you going the divine route, I could do an arcane route with Riftwarden Orphan.

Sounds good.

You prefer relatives, friends, or co-workers?

You interested in the teamwork feats?


Dave Justus wrote:
ElterAgo wrote:
Seems like I would want to be a long lived race to keep 'watch' over my fledgling nation until it grows stable.

I actually disagree with this. The more your kingdom is dependent on you, the less stable it will be if you leave, and the longer you are in charge, the worse it will be eventually.

If your character is really that smart, the society he builds won't need him to function. George Washington only serving two terms a president of the U.S. is a brilliant example, easily contrasted with 'President for Life' examples that didn't achieve long term stability.

Hmm... Good point, I will consider.


Here is a quick throw-together of what he might build like up to level 11.

Avenging Angel:

Aasimar inquisitor of Ragathiel 11 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 38, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 7)
NG Medium outsider (native)
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +11
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 17, touch 10, flat-footed 17 (+7 armor)
hp 84 (11d8+26)
Fort +9, Ref +3, Will +10; +2 vs. [evil], +2 bonus vs. fire effects
Defensive Abilities stalwart; DR 2/—; Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor), fly 20 ft. (poor)
Melee +1 jurist cold iron bastard sword +12/+7 (1d10+4/19-20) or
. . 2 wings +6 (1d4+1)
Ranged +1 greenwood composite longbow +9/+4 (1d8+4/×3)
Special Attacks bane (11 rounds/day), judgment 4/day (2 simultaneous)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 11th; concentration +12)
. . 1/day—daylight
Inquisitor Spell-Like Abilities (CL 11th; concentration +14)
. . At will—detect alignment, discern lies (11 rounds/day)
Inquisitor Spells Known (CL 11th; concentration +14)
. . 4th (2/day)—holy smite (DC 17), judgment light[UC] (DC 17), communal protection from energy[UC]
. . 3rd (5/day)—heroism, invisibility purge, litany of righteousness[UC] (DC 16), prayer
. . 2nd (5/day)—blistering invective[UC] (DC 15), honeyed tongue[APG], litany of defense[UC], communal protection from evil[UC], silence (DC 15)
. . 1st (6/day)—bless, detect demon, divine favor, ear-piercing scream[UM] (DC 14), ears of the city, litany of weakness[UC]
. . 0 (at will)—create water, detect magic, detect poison, guidance, sift[APG], stabilize
. . Domain Redemption inquisition
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 12
Base Atk +8; CMB +11; CMD 21
Feats Angel Wings[ARG], Angelic Blood[ARG], Angelic Flesh (brazen)[ARG], Blinding Light, Inner Light, Intercept Charge[ACG], Lookout[APG], Metallic Wings[ARG], Shake It Off[UC]
Skills Acrobatics -3 (-7 to jump), Bluff +5, Diplomacy +19, Fly -3, Heal +7, Intimidate +20 (+23 vs. outsiders), Knowledge (arcana) +4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (engineering) +1, Knowledge (geography) +1, Knowledge (history) +1, Knowledge (local) +1, Knowledge (nature) +4, Knowledge (nobility) +1, Knowledge (planes) +14, Knowledge (religion) +14, Linguistics +7, Perception +11, Profession (soldier) +17, Ride +1, Sense Motive +24 (+27 vs. outsiders), Spellcraft +4, Survival +7; Racial Modifiers +2 Diplomacy, +2 Perception
Languages Celestial, Common
SQ aasimar inquisitor, monster lore +3, patient sensibility, redeemer’s mercy, second chance, solo tactics, stern gaze +5, track +5
Other Gear +1 adamantine agile breastplate[APG], +1 greenwood composite longbow (+3 Str), +1 jurist cold iron bastard sword, 14 pp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
+3 to Intimidate, Knowledge, and Sense Motive vs. outsiders. Add +1/2 on Intimidate, Knowledge, and Sense Motive checks made against outsiders.
Angelic Blood +2 saves vs. evil effects, to stabilize while dying, and 1 damage to evil or undead if bleeding.
Angelic Flesh (Brazen) +2 saves vs. fire effects.
Bane (+2 / 2d6, 11 rounds/day) (Su) Make the weapon you are holding a bane weapon.
Blinding Light (DC 16) If an enemy fails an attempt to counter/dispel your daylight, it is blinded 1 rd (Fort neg).
Damage Reduction (2/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Detect Alignment (At will) (Sp) Detect chaos, evil, good, or law at will.
Discern Lies (11 rounds/day) (Sp) Discern Lies at will
Energy Resistance, Acid (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Acid attacks.
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Energy Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Fire attacks.
Fly (20 feet, Poor) You can fly!
Inner Light If a foe counters/dispels your daylight, all allies in 20 ft gain darkvision 60.
Inquisitor Domain (Redemption Inquisition) Your deity inspires you with hope that wayward members of your faith can be brought back into the fold.

Granted Powers: You reach out to your misguided fellows and give them every chance to turn back from conflict with the true faith, even
Intercept Charge When opp charges ally with feat, mv up to speed to get in way of charge.
Lookout Not surprised if adj ally with same feat isn't surprised. Extra actions if both are aware.
Metallic Wings Gain metallic wings that deal 1d4 damage (1d3 if small).
Monster Lore +3 (Ex) +3 to Knowledge checks when identifying the weaknessess of creatures.
Patient Sensibility (Su) You gain a +2 bonus on Diplomacy, Perception, and Sense Motive checks.
Redeemer’s Mercy (Su) Any weapon you wield gains the merciful magic weapon power for as long as you wield it.
Second Chance (1/day) (Sp) Cast atonement w/ added effect of cure serious wounds. Can forego material cost by taking 1 permanent neg level.
Second Judgment (4/day) (Su) Variable bonuses increase as the combat continues.
Shake It Off Gain +1 to all saving throws per adjacent ally
Solo Tactics (Ex) Count Teamwork feats as if your allies had the same ones.
Stalwart (Ex) If you succeed at a Fort or Will save for reduced effect, you take none instead.
Stern Gaze +5 (Ex) +5 to Sense Motive and Intimidate.
Track +5 Add the listed bonus to Survival checks made to track.

Definitely still in the early stages of development. Will require a lot more thought and personality development.


Hmm... Although I don't usually play that kind of character, I'm actually considering Touched by Divinity trait, Aasimar, divine spell caster, holy vindicator, eventually all the race feats for the halo/wings/metal skin, and going full bore avenging angel.


LordKailas wrote:

...

How will the character secure and protect the lands of the kingdom?
...

This one time, I am actually coming at the question from the other end. Almost any type of character can do a decent job of defending a nation. Beating enemies to a bloody pulp himself, assassinating the leaders of opposing nations, or even just amassing enough wealth to hire / train / equip a formidable army.

Though I don't think it should be too dependent upon his personal powers since he plans to make a nation that will last throughout the ages. Rather than just his life time.

This time I'm trying to find which type of build fits my personality and plans the best. Then I will figure out how he will accomplish those goals.


To other potential applicants coming along.

Anyone interested in making 'set' of PC's? Relatives, friends, or co-workers whose abilities compliment each other, possibly including teamwork feats.


Definitely interested in this game. Few questions while I cogitate on character concepts and builds.

- Sanity checks can be done well and can be done poorly. Some games are almost guaranteed for everyone to be insane within a few levels due to the number of checks and their difficulties. For example: one campaign I was in had people making sanity checks every time they came upon the site of a massacre or encountered something unnatural like a bloody skeleton. These were moderately high level characters who had created multiple their own wretched massacres on a regular basis and one of whom regularly animated undead like bloody skeletons. I don't feel in added to the horror feeling of the game. It was just so silly it just became annoying. If not over used and appropriate, I'm all for it.
- Not sure about your Alternate Mythic rules yet since I neither own nor intend to get that book. But I'm sure I can pick up on it well enough to play along.
- You will probably get grief from some, but I actually like the low point buy for abilities. I like someone that is a hero because he has to be rather than starting off with god-like abilities.
- Trying to download the Campaign Player's Guide, but the system is giving me fits. So sorry if any of my questions are already covered in that.
- Are there any sorts of build, personalities, alignments, deities, etc.. That you feel are inappropriate or don't like dealing with as a GM. For example: some GM's are tired of dealing with yet another (Drzzt clone) good aligned Drow. Or hate dealing with all the critters from 'pet' classes like summoners or summoning druids. Or some campaigns are just really difficult to justify a Paladin with his oath in the group.
- What are your opinions on Hero Points and VMC. I don't have a build yet, so neither are integral to my concept. Just wondering.


{{ This is NOT for a Kingmaker Campaign. So please don't move it to that forum. }}

Ok, I have a character personality and life plan that I'd like some input building into a character. This is not normal for me. Usually I have the build at least started long before the personality. This will be for a GM created campaign (though mostly standard rules as far as I know). Our PC's could theoretically start up a nation later in the campaign if we so choose.

This guy (or gal) is convinced he (or she) can set up the 'nearly perfect' kingdom / nation / state. It will last for the ages. It will be fair. It will be prosperous. It will be secure. It will grow. Etc... He has all the arrogance of the favored scion of the most ancient dynasty. However, his arrogance is not predicated on something as silly as to whom he was randomly born. It is based on the clear fact that he obviously knows best.

So while adventuring during the campaign:
- He will be looking for ideal locations that are up for grabs.
- What laws do or do not work.
- Making deals for eventual acknowledgment of his nation.
- Identifying and/or recruiting individuals, families, and organizations that would be useful to have in his nation.
- Identifying individuals, families, and organizations that he will want to try and limit or keep out of his nation.
- Future favored trading or passage rights.
- He will consider if equipment, spells, skill ranks, languages, and feats will be useful for his nation.

Note: For this character concept to work it isn't actually necessary that the kingdom ever actually happens in the campaign. If none of the other players are interested, that will just be something the character finally pursues on his own after the campaign ends. He will still be looking and bargaining for those things that will help his future nation as we go along. However, he does need to be functional and contributing member of the party all through his career.

- I'm not sure yet if he intends to be the actual ruler or the power behind the throne (giving advice and corrections as needed).
- Undecided if will be starting a new nation or taking over an existing one.
- Warlord of some sort would probably be easiest to grab and hold on to a nation. But doesn't seem like the personality to think he can set up the most fair, prosperous, etc...
- Druid, ranger, or hunter would be useful to have along to help set up a nation in 'harmony with' rather than destroying the natural world. But they don't seem like the type dedicate himself to setting up a nation.
- Monk, rogue, slayer, gunslinger - yeah right.
- Bard has ... possibilities. I suppose a few of the archtypes have the face type personality and skills to help set up something like this. Still seems more of primary diplomat assistance than the actual nation builder though.
- Seems like the book casters (wizard, arcanist, and alchemist), while intelligent, are to involved with their arcane studies, experiments, and pouring over dusty old tomes. The don't seem the type that would be interested in the hassle of setting up and running a nation. But not certain of that. The divination spells could definitely help.
- A theocracy is a possibility. Though those tend not to last or be all that utopian in RL or the game world. But I can see the follower of some of the deities being convinced that 'this time' it will be done right.
- At least one (if not more) of the 3 mental stats would have to be at least fairly high for the 'knows best' arrogant attitude for which I'm looking.
- The Destined sorcerer bloodline actually sounds almost perfect from a flavor perspective. Maybe destined/sage or destined/empyreal if I want to make use of intelligence or wisdom as the casting stat.
- The Empiricist investigator definitely has and makes use of a high intelligence. Piles-o-skill points. Has some spells without necessarily being dedicated to arcane research and experimentation.
- Seems like I would want to be a long lived race to keep 'watch' over my fledgling nation until it grows stable.

Thoughts, comments, concerns, suggestions?


I know you are wanting all fighter builds. But what about eldritch heritage, vmc, familiar, and/or animal companions for some wierd magical abilities without actually having caster levels?


GM is thinking about running a mini campaign centered in a nation that persecutes casters of and users of magic of any type. (Armageddon type magic war, yada, yada... )

So most of the party will probably be martial and/or scout types.

I want to make a caster that isn't obviously a caster. Still Spell, Silent Spell, Eschew Materials, and slight of hand skill are clearly desired. Spells or SLA's that don't have obvious visible or auditory effects will be best. I wouldn't think things like owl's wisdom, cat's grace, guidance, bless, or any of the detect spells would be noticeable. Any other good choices?

He would have to be at least good enough at a something to have a reason to be with the group. So able to fight, sneak, face, or other skills at least halfway decent.

How would you build this?


Ok, here is Som Voda. An Undine watersinger.
Bardic performance to buff during a fight. Secondary combatant at best. Should eventually be decent at knowledge skills and pretty dang good at face skills.
Will take a few combat and buff spells, but mostly utility.

Following is a rough build and background. Should make a pretty good diplomat. Wants to make river trade safer and more profitable. That will of course require patrol boats to keep down the riffraff.

Som Voda de'Morcaine:

Male undine bard (watersinger) 2/swashbuckler 1 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 56, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide 176, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 2 275)
CG Medium outsider (native)
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +7
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Defense
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AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +3 Dex)
hp 26 (3 HD; 2d8+1d10+6)
Fort +2, Ref +8, Will +6; +4 vs. bardic performance, language-dependent, and sonic
Resist cold 5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor), swim 30 ft.
Melee mwk undine weaponshaft elysian bronze trident +6 (1d8)
Ranged mwk underwater light crossbow +6 (1d8/19-20)
Special Attacks bardic performance 8 rounds/day (countersong, distraction, inspire courage +1), deeds (derring-do, opportune parry and riposte), panache (2)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 3rd; concentration +5)
. . 1/day—hydraulic push[APG]
Bard (Watersinger) Spells Known (CL 2nd; concentration +4)
. . 1st (3/day)—comprehend languages, hydraulic push[APG], liberating command[UC], saving finale[APG] (DC 13), slipstream[APG] (DC 13)
. . 0 (at will)—create water, lullaby (DC 12), message, open/close (DC 12), sift[APG], summon instrument
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 14
Base Atk +2; CMB +2; CMD 15
Feats Battle Cry (dirty Tactics Toolbox), Spellsong[UM]
Traits noble born - lodovka, stage magic, water-touched
Skills Acrobatics +4 (+0 to jump), Bluff +6, Climb +1, Diplomacy +6, Disguise +6, Escape Artist +4, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (arcana) +7, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +7, Knowledge (engineering) +7, Knowledge (geography) +7, Knowledge (history) +7, Knowledge (local) +7, Knowledge (nature) +7, Knowledge (nobility) +7, Knowledge (planes) +7, Knowledge (religion) +7, Perception +7, Perform (act) +2 (+4 to use Countersong vs. creatures with the aquatic subtype), Perform (comedy) +2 (+4 to use Countersong vs. creatures with the aquatic subtype), Perform (dance) +2 (+4 to use Countersong vs. creatures with the aquatic subtype), Perform (keyboard instruments) +2 (+4 to use Countersong vs. creatures with the aquatic subtype), Perform (oratory) +6 (+8 to use Countersong vs. creatures with the aquatic subtype), Perform (percussion instruments) +2 (+4 to use Countersong vs. creatures with the aquatic subtype), Perform (sing) +6 (+8 to use Countersong vs. creatures with the aquatic subtype), Perform (string instruments) +2 (+4 to use Countersong vs. creatures with the aquatic subtype), Perform (wind instruments) +2 (+4 to use Countersong vs. creatures with the aquatic subtype), Ride +4, Sense Motive +7, Spellcraft +6, Stealth +4, Swim +12, Use Magic Device +6
Languages Aquan, Common, Elven, Gnome
SQ bardic knowledge +1, hydrated vitality[ARG], paranoid, swashbuckler finesse, undine bard, versatile performance (sing), watersong
Other Gear chain shirt, mwk underwater light crossbow[ARG], mwk undine weaponshaft elysian bronze trident, 91 pp, 5 gp
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Special Abilities
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+2 to countersong against creatures with the aquatic or water subtypes Add a +1 bonus on Perform checks to use the countersong bardic performance against creatures with the aquatic or water subtypes.
Bardic Knowledge +1 (Ex) Add +1 to all knowledge skill checks.
Bardic Performance (standard action, 8 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Battle Cry (Dirty Tactics Toolbox) Bardic performance during surprise round doesn't count toward daily round limit.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Deeds
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Hydrated Vitality (6 HP/day) Gain fast healing 2 when submerged completely in natural, flowing, water.
Panache (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on light/piercing crit/killing blow.
Paranoid Aid Another DC 15 for attempts to help you.
Spellsong Combine spellcasting and bardic performance
Swashbuckler Finesse Use Dex for att with light/1-hand pierce wep. Use Cha instead of Int for combat feat pre-reqs.
Swim (30 feet) You have a Swim speed.
Versatile Performance (Singing) +6 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Sing skill for Bluff or Sense Motive checks
Watersong (One 5-ft cube) (Su) Use bardic performance to manipulate and control water.
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Som Voda loved growing up on the riverways. The freedom to travel and trade anywhere the water goes has always been a liberating adventure. Though it obviously has its darker side as well.
He learned that one needs to be able to make friends and allies everywhere in order to travel. Pirates and extortionists abound. You have to be able to tell who is really on your side, support them, and be supported by them.
"I will make a place where travel is... well if not safe... at least safer. Pirates congeal like muck in stagnat waters. But at least we can make an effort to dredge them out and let the water flow clean."

Please let me know what you think. I am more than open to suggestions.


Aha... Just thought of something. Are you building your kingdom on the shore of an ocean, river, or lake. Might need someone to operate in the waterways and eventually command a navy.


Hmm... Since Gird is planning to take on the roles of scout and face, I don't want to step on his toes.

Cavalier and bloodrager should have melee covered.

Your party could really use some condition removal magic. However, I have done a several of those type of characters lately and I'm kinda burnt out on that.

Is the sorc a blaster or support build?
If the sorc is support, you could use some ranged ability.
If the sorc is a blaster, you could use some group buffing.


Gird Medvyed wrote:

The inquisitor is a dex based melee build of Kelinahat.

He is lawful good will have an intelligence gathering based build and I have precise strike teamwork feat. I am open to coordinating later teamwork feat selection.

Does "...intelligence gathering..." include scouting and/or face skills?


I have some ideas and a couple of questions.

1) Is anyone other than the cavalier and inquisitor taking teamwork feats? Are they matching up together? I think a tight group with matching teamwork feats could be a blast!

2) How does the current group feel about pets/cohorts? Some like them, others feel they detract, some don't care.

3) Is the inquisitor a melee, ranged, or spy build? What deity?


I won't go far as to say a healer is wasted, but it isn't essential.
You need some way to recover hit points. Several click sticks can handle that.
You need a way to remove conditions such as blindness, paralysis, level drain, ability damage, etc... Most of the casting classes have at least some of these on their lists. That plus UMD for scrolls can be your solution for this.
You need a way to hurt the opposition. SoS casters, melee weapons, ranged weapons, summoned creatures, animal companions, eidolons, archers, blaster casters, gunslingers, etc... lots of ways to handle this.
Usually there is a need for some way to assist each other. Buff spells, protections spells, aid another, etc...
Same for face skills, information gathering, opening locks, removing traps. Most campaigns you need a way to handle the situations, but there are many different ways to do that.

So I say no, there is no need for the original 4 classes. It is a formula that works, but it isn't necessary.


I was thinking they both had made occasional appearances on SS. But it has been along time since my kids were that young, so I could easily be wrong.

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