(pirate / aspis town) 'kill the helpless aspis agent or the innocent family dies' what should a paldin do?

[Trevor86]

So yesterday during pfs, the following situation occured.

In short, we were infiltrating a lawless town were the aspis society and pirates crime lords are the only established order. One of the goals was to help an pfs aligned achimist who had gone silent.

When we find him, we learn that a local aspis agent has poisoned the alchimist's son and has been giving only small portions of antidote to keep the child weak and the man in check. Naturally, we decide to help him out.

In the next section, we are immediately attacked by the aspis agent/crimelord upon entering her turf (sort of to be expected, we were rolling poorly on social checks thusfar and had been in a fight already). We still manage to win the fight and subdue her.

Then, things get a bit messy.

In short, the aspis agent is constantly mocking us. She refuses to tell us anything about the antidote despite rolls of into the 30's of diplomacy and intimidate. She also heavily implies she will kill the alchimist's family the moment she gets away and that we're not going to harm her anyway since that's not what pathfinders do to prisoners.
Eventually, we do find the antidote nearby.

Now, a long argument starts on what to do with the aspis agent. We have no allies in the city who can lock her up. The gnome npc who stepped up to take over her establishment after her thugs were dead and she defeated suggested just killing her, but he couldn't offer any kind of nonlethal assistance. We cannot take her with us since we need to keep as low a profile as possible. We are level 3 to 7 and have no major magic in the party to wipe her memory or do something similarly useful. Tying and leaving the npc was implied to be equal to us willingly letting the nearby gnome npc kill her which would still be an evil act.

Througout all this, the dm keeps insisting that killing the agent is an act of blatant evil and threatens to change mine and our rogue's alignment to evil if he executes her (thus making that character illegal for pfs play). As the paladin, i'd been looking for nonlethal options such as those above but every time the gm answer is 'no'. It seemed to be a binary choice of comitting an evil act ans saving the npc family or letting the agent go and condemning the family to death.

Personally, i then figured that i had no choice but to kill the child poisoner. This sentimemt was shared by some party members but the rogue and cleric and me were held hostage by alignmemt change threat.

The argument spawning from this between characters took all momemtum out of the session and made me wish more and more we hadnt tried to stabilize the aspis woman when she went down in the actual fight.

Looking back on it, we maybe should have given up and just convinced the almlchimist to cut and run with us along with his family right now, though he'd have to leave his home and shop and risk us being able to protect them out of the city while we finished our buisness, though that would also have been dangerous to them.

I am wondering what others would do in this situation. Is there some option to handle this we didnt think of? Is killing the aspis agent here so evil it should immediately make our characters pfs unlegal?

[VRMH]

A Paladin does no Evil.

That's it. That's all you have to stick to. If killing someone is Evil, then the Paladin doesn't do it - regardless of what the further consequences might be.

(Although there's a line of thought that Paladins should always be looking for the right moment to fall from grace, the point where their own purity is the sacrifice that is called for, and that they should be willing to make.)

[Backpack]

Nope, sounds an awful lot like your gm's just a dick. One, that is at best deserving of a warning but not a full switch. Second to me this act is right in the gray area between chaotic good and chaotic neutral. Now a paladin is a little different since you have your code to worry about, but due to the last two points I think that this is a non issue. Lastly I would recommend just talking to the GM and saying, "listen, is this a Sophie's choice issue and we either kill the bad guy or let the kid die?" It sounds like there is a misunderstanding somewhere, because imo letting a child get killed and not stopping it is just as evil as killing a helpless bad guy.

[Shifty]

Yeah nah, the problem here appears to be the GM.

Worst case, the Paladin wanders out for some fresh air whilst the morally ambiguous people do him a solid and make up a story about 'how she escaped', but move him away from the nearby well.

[Trevor86]

VRMH wrote:

A Paladin does no Evil.

That's it. That's all you have to stick to. If killing someone is Evil, then the Paladin doesn't do it - regardless of what the further consequences might be.

(Although there's a line of thought that Paladins should always be looking for the right moment to fall from grace, the point where their own purity is the sacrifice that is called for, and that they should be willing to make.)

While I agree with the paladin's do no evil part, in this scenario I have a lot of trouble finding a non-evil option. As far as I could tell, these were the options:

-Do not stabilize the aspis crimelord after the end of the fight, even though there is ample opportunity (seems like murder/evil?)
-Kill the now prisoner crimelord to save the family (seems like the most non-evil option considering the other options)
-Let the crimelord go but willingly allow the npc family to die (definitely evil imo)
-Tie up the npc and leave, thereby letthing the upstart gnome npc have his (presumably lethal) way with her while we conveniently look the other way (evil.
-Alternatively, have all good NPC's leave the area while the neutral party members kill her (DM blocks this as the rogue is threatened to be made pfs illedgal by forced alignment switch)
-Take the gnome for his word as an upstart crimeboss (haha?) that he won't hurt the aspis agent when we leave her tied up (try to convince him to spare her beofre leaving somehow), then talk the npc family into fleeing the town, costing them everything and risking their prescense when the aspis agents counterattack against us, thus still knowingly putting them in a lot of danger (grey area heavily leaning towards evil imo)...

[Dynamite Bouquet]

Trevor86 wrote:

So yesterday during pfs, the following situation occured.

In short, we were infiltrating a lawless town were the aspis society and pirates crime lords are the only established order. One of the goals was to help an pfs aligned achimist who had gone silent.

When we find him, we learn that a local aspis agent has poisoned the alchimist's son and has been giving only small portions of antidote to keep the child weak and the man in check. Naturally, we decide to help him out.

In the next section, we are immediately attacked by the aspis agent/crimelord upon entering her turf (sort of to be expected, we were rolling poorly on social checks thusfar and had been in a fight already). We still manage to win the fight and subdue her.

Then, things get a bit messy.

In short, the aspis agent is constantly mocking us. She refuses to tell us anything about the antidote despite rolls of into the 30's of diplomacy and intimidate. She also heavily implies she will kill the alchimist's family the moment she gets away and that we're not going to harm her anyway since that's not what pathfinders do to prisoners.
Eventually, we do find the antidote nearby.

Now, a long argument starts on what to do with the aspis agent. We have no allies in the city who can lock her up. The gnome npc who stepped up to take over her establishment after her thugs were dead and she defeated suggested just killing her, but he couldn't offer any kind of nonlethal assistance. We cannot take her with us since we need to keep as low a profile as possible. We are level 3 to 7 and have no major magic in the party to wipe her memory or do something similarly useful. Tying and leaving the npc was implied to be equal to us willingly letting the nearby gnome npc kill her which would still be an evil act.

Througout all this, the dm keeps insisting that killing the agent is an act of blatant evil and threatens to change mine and our rogue's alignment to evil if he executes her (thus making that character illegal for pfs play). As the...

The woman POISONED A CHILD and only gave enough antidote to PROLONG HIS SUFFERING. She is EVIL. Killing her would not be an evil act and if your DM says it is he is either a liar or a moron. Either way he should NEVER BE ALLOWED TO BE DM AGAIN.

[Kileanna]

Hmmm... Come to an agreement with the gnome so he takes care of the NPC family and protects them in exchange of some kind of payment? Maybe the family or the alchemist can work for him and make the gnome swear that he won't try to get them into anything evil or highly illegal.

Then threaten the agent to kill her if she ever comes close to the family again.

Putting the family under a crime lord protection might be the less evil solution.

But I don't know if it could be an option.

Also, if the agent is some sort of cover agent it could be a good idea to get her name and face to be known by some crime lords if they are ejemies. She might have to leave the town if she's too known.

[Lady-J]

kill the angery murder lady or kill a family seems pretty streat forward to me

[DM Shade]

Here's a possible course of action:

In a lawless town where the only authority was the Consortium, it would be wise to not rely on the gnome who inherited her place in the organization, but instead take a leaf from how most transitional regimes or organizations handle lawless towns (frontier, post-revolution, during civil wars): they set up a council of citizens to manage the city, and empower them. This follows systematic suppression of disruptive elements (like other crime lords or the pirates).

In other words: You (the paladin) and your allies state that since you defeated the Aspis crimelady, you are now in charge. You subsequently diplomize, intimidate, or even fight and defeat other crime lords (other aspis agents) and the pirates.
When that is over, find a good bunch of civilians, honorable guardsmen, or a good-aligned church, and tell them, 'you're in charge now', who make a civil government.

By doing so, you not only find a good place to hold the crimelady (if your GM insists that killing her is actively evil, which it probably isn't), but you also prevent another Aspis or pirate gang to take her place during the power gap, since the civil government will be effectively the strongest faction there.

Of course, this isn't a perfect solution: the government may not be as strong as required, and the other factions might gang up on your team to make your conquest harder, and since you will not be there, you cannot keep the peace against surprises, but it is an appropriate Lawful Good solution.

[Rysky]

Um, I don't think that's really an option during a PFS scenario.

[DM Shade]

If the GM insists on taking the scenario into a certain direction, the players have the right to push back. >:D

Edit: On a more serious note, most can be adjudicated with Diplomacy, Intimidate, and good roleplaying.
That is, unless the GM just wants to change alignment, and conjured an elaborate alignment trap, in which case biting the bullet and going for redemption/atonement later is a possible option.

[Vimes]

Trevor86 wrote:

-Let the crimelord go but willingly allow the npc family to die (definitely evil imo)

That's not evil, it's the crimelord choice. Unless he wants them to die, it's naive at worst.

I would say killing the crimelord would not be evil. Maybe offering him to fight for his life allowing to use a weapon would be the most paladin thing to do. Another option would be to let the crimelord go and stay with the family until they are attacked, and kill the atackers in self defense. Also, you can tie and carry the crimelord as a prisoner until you find something better to do with her.

Best thing for you is the first one, I think. Challenge her to a duel, end her life there in the most paladin way possible without changing your alignement.

But as others already said, it is definitely not deserving a good-to-evil change. To neutral, at worst, and still I would say it would be a warn at most. If it is against the deity of the character, I would make them do something for redemption or face the consquences, but definitely not making the character illegal.

[JDLPF]

I'm reminded of the (likely fictional) Powder Keg of Justice. Always my favourite Paladin story.

[Rysky]

I wouldn't even call it worthy of an Alignment change, let alone Evil, if you execute her after she keeps taunting you with murdering the family if she gets free. If you did let her go and she murdered the family like she promised than that would definitely be on you.

[Spacelard]

Sounds like a 'Ha, ha! Gotcha!' GM move to me.
BTW What is the Paladin's Code as worked out before play between GM and Player?
And if this is a PFS scenario what one is it?

EDIT: Just read the scenario. Paladin's DO stick to a Code of Conduct and it will vary from Deity to Deity. So it isn't a case of insta-fail it depends on the Deity. Does look like the GM is looking for ways to punish the paladin which is poor GMing IMO. Evil NPC commiting bad stuff gets executed for their crimes. No issue for me.
Go for the Fall and then Atone :D

[Nathan Monson]

Not at all evil, maybe a bit chaotic; the Aspis agent has commited numerous evil acts and has stated an intent to do more, and as the aspis are the law in bloodcove, there is no possibility of a fair trial, therefore, it is perfectly reasonable for the paladin to kill her. In conclusion, your GM was just being a dick.

[GM Aerondor]

This is a scenario set in Bloodcove, unless I miss my guess.

My first thought is that execution of a murderer is not an evil act. However to put things in a way that the GM might find acceptable...

Knock out the crime lord, and keep them tied up in the alchemists cellar. When you leave town, take them with you, and then drop them off somewhere that the Aspis don't run things.

Sometimes thought in order to make PFS work, you have to be a little flexible with your paladins (or other lawful or even good) characters codes.

[Rysky]

That's not really viable either. "Hey this person threatened people in a town a couple of towns over, lock them up in your town because we say so."

[Red DM of Doom]

Just out of interest, what scenario was this?

It sounds like a gm flying entirely off his rail.

[ekibus]

So usually if someone is evil it is easier to kill them in the heat of combat. Seen too many gms muddle the water after. That said seems easy to me. You are lawful and the npc gnome is now in charge, well you are acting in regards to the law. Since she is scum I'm sure the paladin would find it perhaps distasteful but hardly evil. A paladin cam execute a prisoner of it is the law of the land. Also the code states "punish those who harm or threaten innocents" i think it is a case of the gm being a jerk.

[Trevor86]

This is a scenario set in bloodcove, named ppathfinder 2-01, before the dawn part 1:the bloodcoven disguise. I haven't read the module myself, only reported my experience in the first post. Thus im not dure if any modifications were made to it.

[Ierox]

maybe the DM wanted you to just keep them as your prisoner?

[Ierox]

Having actually read the adventure now:

Spoiler warning, obviously:

Look at that, a spoiler being used to avoid spoilers.:

Yeah no,
the adventure clearly wants her to die. There's no provision made anywhere of her capture or survival, and her 'morale' text goes:

"Morale Born and bred on the mean streets of Bloodcove, Lura
Ichon would sooner die that publicly show weakness."

So yeah. The DM thinks that killing prisoners is evil, full stop. Entirely something they made up on their own, no basis for it in the adventure whatsoever.

[justaworm]

As a sometimes GM, I am usually not one of these "the GM is an idiot or always out to get you", person, but frankly in this case I would disagree. While killing a helpless person (regardless of what they have done) may be an evil act, and even may be fall worthy, it is not worthy of an alignment change all the way to evil in this case given the circumstances.

Keeping the agent a prisoner should also work, even if it blows your cover.

[justaworm]

Ierox wrote:

Having actually read the adventure now:

Spoiler warning, obviously:
** spoiler omitted **

Given that text, the GM is playing her right in my opinion. Why wouldn't she do what she says she is going to do? The group should have just let her die, rather than stabilize her, when the fight was over. However, now they are in the pickle they find themselves.

No good paths forward really ... this is where the GM should take pains to allow the players should work towards a suitable solution, even if it is out of scope.

[Spacelard]

Again...what Faith is the Paladin and did the Player and GM come up with a Code of Conduct before play?

This is a good place to start, IMO.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Allow the gnome to kill the agent and use the castle defense to prevent the paladin from code violation problems. The paladins code requires they protect the innocent not the helpless. If the GM is still giving you problems simply leave the agent with the gnome and tell him that you know that he will do what is necessary to protect his family.

This is a straight up case of the GM being wrong, but that is a fight you will likely not win. I am not sure about how PFS works but if there is some sort of method for protesting a GM’s decision I would look into that.

[Trevor86]

Spacelard wrote:

Again...what Faith is the Paladin and did the Player and GM come up with a Code of Conduct before play?

This is a good place to start, IMO.

The paladin's faith was in Iomedae and working for the Andorran's/silver crusade. Code of conduct wasn't discussed with the GM beforehand.

From the pathfinder wiki on iomedae's code:

"-When in doubt, I may force my enemies to surrender, but I am responsible for their lives.
-I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest.
-I will be temperate in my actions and moderate in my behavior."

Strictly speaking, the tenants of Iomedae would decree that a prisoner's life is my responsibility and that i'm honorable at all times. This would then decree that I spare her, and I did stabilize her the moment the fight was over. The tenants also say nothing about protecting npc's from certain death that might follow from my actions of showing mercy to an enemy. Would you then say I should let the crimelord go, knowing full well he will kill the innocents somewhere in the immediate future? And then justify it by saying my tenants specifically state I should be merciful but not to take into account the consequences of this?

[Rysky]

Being responsible for their lives doesn't mean you have to spare and save everyone you fight, hence the opening of "When in doubt, I may force my enemies to surrender".

This person also technically didn't surrender, you beat them to near death and then only saved them to find the antidote. Any responsibility you had to them went out the window when they outright claimed that they were going to murder a family as soon as they were free. And you can't turn them into the local authorities because they pretty much are the local authorities.

Execute them. No Chaos, no Evil, no falling.

[Spacelard]

Trevor86 wrote:

Spacelard wrote:

Again...what Faith is the Paladin and did the Player and GM come up with a Code of Conduct before play?

This is a good place to start, IMO.

The paladin's faith was in Iomedae and working for the Andorran's/silver crusade. Code of conduct wasn't discussed with the GM beforehand.

From the pathfinder wiki on iomedae's code:

"-When in doubt, I may force my enemies to surrender, but I am responsible for their lives.
-I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest.
-I will be temperate in my actions and moderate in my behavior."

Strictly speaking, the tenants of Iomedae would decree that a prisoner's life is my responsibility and that i'm honorable at all times. This would then decree that I spare her, and I did stabilize her the moment the fight was over. The tenants also say nothing about protecting npc's from certain death that might follow from my actions of showing mercy to an enemy. Would you then say I should let the crimelord go, knowing full well he will kill the innocents somewhere in the immediate future? And then justify it by saying my tenants specifically state I should be merciful but not to take into account the consequences of this?

Iomedae... Execute her, she has earned that from her past deeds. Go to the nearest Iomedae's Temple and Atone for the action. Still no 'Ha! Gotcha!' in my view. You wouldn't Fall at my table...good excuse for a lil' roleplaying if you ask me.

The biggest problem, in my eyes, with Paladins is that the Player and GM tend to have different views on what that paladin should look like. That is why I always encourage the player the talk through with me as a GM what they see as being The Code before play so issues like this don't crop up. You aren't the first player and you won't be the last!

If the GM is going to get all rules lawyer on you the Aspis Agent didn't surrender. She fell during honorable combat, you stabilized her to give a chance to repent, she didn't...Executed.

I hope your GM isn't just using this as an excuse for a power-trip or kick you in the nuts. Good luck.

[Ectar]

If I'm not mistaken, when I played this scenario, we had the alchemist and soon return to Absalom with us. The Aspis agent lived, but want a threat to the family, since we helped set them up in a different country.

[Brother Fen]

You should rethink the "take her with you" option. It seems the most workable.

[Calybos1]

Since this was a PFS session, the GM clearly handled it wrong. No scenario can present a no-win situation that requires a paladin to "either fall or fail the mission."

[Imbicatus]

I said it in the other thread, but the establishment sells drinks and you're disguised as merchants. Stuff her in a barrel and taker her to the alchemist. He gets to stay in town and he has the connections to smuggle her back to a cell.

[Rylar]

Report the gm. He is clearly bullying your party and shouldn't be a pfs gm without changing his actions. As for what I would do, "oh look at my wrist, it's time for me to go. Good luck guys." And walk out. With the information I have at this point, I'd never play with that GM again and report the crap out of him.

['Sani]

Did the poisoner confess to the poisoning?
Id the alchemist and his son with you and able to identify the poisoner?
The poisoner is threatening murder?

Then hold a very quick trial. Like 10-15 minutes. Establish guilt, other party members around to be jury, and when she'd found guilty, sentence her to death. Then it's not murder, it's justice.

[Skull]

Looks to me like the only thing you could do to protect the family was to either kill the prisoner, or hand them to some other crime boss who doesnt like them and ask them to "do what you will"

If the whole town is out to get the innocent people, convince them to leave :P

It does sound like this GM was just out to get you. Alignment changes should be for really drastic stuff... Killing an obviously evil person threatening innocent life is not.

[Malignor]

The Paladin is the deadly hand of lawfulness and goodness.
The Paladin is not Ghandi, the Paladin is a crusader who slays evil.

If a prisoner is evil, has done evil, admits to doing evil, and openly intends to to more evil, then executing that person for their crimes is a lawful act of good. Clear cut case.

It doesn't matter if they're "helpless". Otherwise any demon can just drop to its knees and pretend to submit and the Paladin can't touch it. Poof, Paladins are instantly worthless against anyone with half-decent problem solving skills.

Think about it, are all executioners evil by definition of their career choice? Obviously not. Not in a world where "the good guys" can storm a den of goblins, slaughter them wholesale, loot their corpses and homes, and still be considered heroes of truth and justice. This is a swords & sorcery fantasy world, not an episode of Law and Order SVU.

It seems obvious to me that your DM hates paladins, or is intent on making your game experience annoying or unpleasant.

[The Steel Refrain]

I kinda feel like a true Paladin should always try to make decisions based upon what is 'right' (in their moral worldview), rather than getting caught up in the personal consequences, including whether it might cause them to Fall. Indeed, it could be argued that focusing on whether an action will cause one to Fall seems inherently inwardly focused.

Maybe they will be wrong, will make mistakes, and will Fall -- but at least they will have acted in accordance with what is right. I cannot see how any righteous god would deny atonement to a well-intentioned and repentant follower in that situation.

Of course, that sort of takes the perspective of a 'Paladin-as-a-force-for-good' versus the 'Paladin-as-a-servant-of-their-good-aligned-deity'.

Anyways, that's all a long-winded way of saying I agree with the suggestion of doing what you felt your character would feel was right and proper, regardless of the consequences outlined by the DM, and then seeking atonement afterwards if necessary. If there is an out-of-game issue in terms of DM conduct, you can look to deal with that post-session through the proper channels.

[Corathonv2]

The NPC had done evil things. Not only is she not repentant, she has promised that if she escapes she will do even worse. There is no rightful authority to turn her over to.

If I were a Good character (but not a paladin) in this situation I'd kill the Aspis agent. If I were a paladin I would (given the rest of the group's consent) untie her, give her a weapon, and say "You and me, to the death. If you win, you can go free at a place of my comrades' choosing." Then I'd fight her.

! agree that the DM in this situation is doing a bad job. He may be looking for "entertaining moral dilemma" be he seems to have created "Sophie's choice" instead.

[Gnomezrule]

Lawless Town- check
Evil person- check
Paladin usually agents of goodly aimed divine wrath- check
RP a good speech and execute as the closest thing to justice in the town.

Now it sounds like the GM has a different view on whether execution can be good or if wandering paladin's can administer it. The above senario of liberating town and finding new leaders is a good fix in this case. It assumes you are keeping the Aspis agent prisoner.

Have an aside with the GM about paladins and expectations. If this is how this GM works then count on the issue coming back in different context.

[Kemuri Kunoichi]

I agree with the majority in here, that GM is a dick and should not be allowed to run PFS games.

I agree with the option I saw mentioned above, untie the prisoner, give them a weapon, and let them defend themselves.

Another option would be to get up from the table mid-session and leave, then reporting the GM for his behavior.

[Daw]

This is a PFS Module, or an approved Paizo Module.
If it is the first, there are specifics on how this should be handled built in.
I suspect Imbicatus advice should be listened to.
I rather suspect this is as much a fail on the Author as the GM. There is likely a clever way around the trumped up moral dilemma. There is a good chance some clues and options have been missed. Where the fail was we don't know. This is a module, so there are almost certainly rails that aren't under your wheels.

[Trevor86]

All right, thanks for the good advice, everyone. I learned quite a few things on exactly how 'good' and/or lawful a paladin is supposed to be, especially in more extreme circumstances such as these. It's good to read that my gut feeling of choosing to execute the aspis member here is shared by a lot of other players and that it wouldn't automatically be an alignment change by most GM's posting here.

There were also two or three ways I've seen suggested that might have still allowed us to take the npc prisoner (I.E. broker a deal with the gnome anyway, put her in a barrel and take her to x) so that this entire issue might have been avoided. Also, to be fair, I don't want to come across as overly critical of the GM since I think that other than this part, the session was still enjoyable and there were few hilarious parts too in which he roleplay really well. Even if it were the GM's fault that this escalated too long and/or did so for the wrong reasons, everyone can make a lapse of judgment sometime, I know I have in the past :')

In the end, i'll be a lot better equipped to handle similar extreme situations in the future and for that I'll just see all this as a learning experience. Thanks again for the comments.

[Bill Dunn]

Daw wrote:

This is a PFS Module, or an approved Paizo Module.

If it is the first, there are specifics on how this should be handled built in.
I suspect Imbicatus advice should be listened to.
I rather suspect this is as much a fail on the Author as the GM. There is likely a clever way around the trumped up moral dilemma. There is a good chance some clues and options have been missed. Where the fail was we don't know. This is a module, so there are almost certainly rails that aren't under your wheels.

I think we can make a few cogent guesses. The enemy isn't really expected to survive the encounter from the other things that have been posted, or at least isn't expected to be captured. And given a morale statement spoilered in the thread above, I think the NPC's demise is expected to be morally unambiguous at least to the point that no further moral dilemma was expected by the writer or editors or any other PFS officials.

[Jodokai]

I skipped a lot, maybe this have been covered, but the answer is in the Paladin's code in the core rule book:

Core Rulebook wrote:

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Your code demands you kill her.

EDIT: Also read the PFS Guidebook about alignment changes. If after you kill the assassin, the GM tries to change your alignment to Evil (which they can't do) talk your your VC, if it is your VC or your VC doesn't do anything talk to your region coordinator.

[Scrapper]

Put her on Trial, let the locals decide her fate, and if condemned, then the paladin's duty is to execute her for the good of all, not an evil act if she was given a fair trial.

[Rysky]

Scrapper wrote:

Put her on Trial, let the locals decide her fate, and if condemned, then the paladin's duty is to execute her for the good of all, not an evil act if she was given a fair trial.

As has been established that option will not work in the slightest in this scenario.

[zainale]

if a serial killer/poisoner of children is going to kill a family and you can stop it. but you don't. then anything they do is on your hands and thus evil. and thus paladin falls. it is the paladins duty to keep the defenseless safe if they shirk their duty to protect the innocent at the moment that the serial killer is at their mercy they are failing that duty. if anything there is always atonement.

1.) kill the b@+%#
2.) break her hands strip her naked and tie her to a post in the town square and let her rivals kill her.
3.) dose her with her own poison and promise to let her go to cure herself. when she gets it knock her out. take the cure. and leave after breaking her hands.
4.) kill the evil bad guy. leave her as an example. take the poisoned child and rush it to it's alchemist parent. alchemists can cure poisonings.

this BBEG is no better then any roving band of monsters that would attack towns. and paladins are allowed to kill tons of those monsters. whats the difference between them and this monster disguised as a human. and if there is no law the paladin is the law and must do what is best for the good of all. bbeg says "if you don't let me go I will go on a rampage and kill a lot of innocent children." but if you do let the bbeg as a bbeg they are going to kill or hurt a lot of innocence anyways.

is the paladin a paladin of that redemption god?

[Jodokai]

zainale wrote:

is the paladin a paladin of that redemption god?

No, Sarenrae is the redemption goddess. If it was a Paladin of Sarenrae it would be even less of a debate, and the paladin would kill her without hesitation.

Paladin: Repent
Evil Person: No
Paladin: *Coup de grâce*

Iomedae is a little different, but as I posted earlier, the code says to punish people who threaten innocents, so you're still safe.