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I have them looking like they did in 3.5. I dont find the new look too imposing.
I absolutely agree.
As someone who likes Hobgoblins and whose first campaign featured them as the main threat, the statistics given in the rules don't really do them justice.
Remember how Changelings are supposedly witch-themed, and yet their stats (+2 wisdom and cha) basically make them ideal clerics? And then how Paizo released a new alternate racial trait that gave them int instead?
Maybe they should do something like that for Hobgoblins, swap out the dex bonus for +2 strength.
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I actually really like that they get + DEX and + CON.
It makes it clear that no, these are not yet another breed of orcs. They're a tough group of monsters, but they're no supersoldiers- nor are they are scrawny stealthy goblins. They're something in between- solid warriors that rely on a mixture of finesse, brute force, and staying power. I feel that is perfect for a militaristic, warlike, yet *lawful leaning* race.
But I mean, no STR bonus just means your typical warrior type have 14-16 STR instead of 16-18. That doesn't make them weak, they're still stronger than most people, they only really lag behind minmaxed adventurers. They just aren't abnormally strong. The stats for the actual hobgoblin monster support this, with a 15 STR. It does mean that hobgoblins can see a bit more variance in class than orcs normally do- they don't have to go into STR based classes, they can pretty much excel at any combat style. I consider that a perk, not a flaw.
As for keen intellects, I think that's strictly comparative. Hobgoblins are tactical geniuses compared to goblins, orcs, ogres, etc. That doesn't mean they are smart enough for a +2 INT- giving them that would suggest that Hobgoblins are smarter than most humans, halflings, dwarves, and any other creature that doesn't get a +2 to INT, on a racial level, across the board. I don't think that's what they're going for with that line. It just means that in general, they aren't stupid, and shouldn't be treated as such.
(And the monster stats once again support this. They have a 10 INT. Strictly average, but higher than Gnolls, Orcs, Ogres, Lizardmen, and most of the other similar enemies. Goblins actually match their 10 INT, but those definitely have a different sort of intelligence. In any case, perfectly average for normal people, but above average for their monster type)
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The only thing that really seems that incongruous is the stealth bonus. Otherwise I think PK nailed it here.
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Strength measures muscle and physical power.Constitution represents your character’s health and stamina.
Now, if you want to take that as muscle power = burly and tough appearance, that is fine.
Not everything about a race has to resume as an ability score bonus though. They take no penalty to INT, that means that many of them are keen and smart, as they have members that go from 3 to 18 INT. They also have many alternative race traits that replace sneaky for int-related skill bonuses.
The fact that they gain two physical ability modifiers does make them good fighters, and "fighters" here isnt talking only about the class, but "people who can fight". That includes fighters, rogues, paladins, barbarians, rangers, etc. It also makes them good fighters (the class) aswell, since neither dexterity or constitution is a dumb stat for fighters.
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The only thing that really seems that incongruous is the stealth bonus. Otherwise I think PK nailed it here.
Even then, it means they can move quietly even when armored up. It's just a different sort of military discipline.
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At least the Battle-Hardened and Engineer alternate racial traits give GMs opportunities to create hobgoblins with more traditional traits found in an army.
Between those 2 traits and the Authoritative and Bandy-Legged alternate traits, you can create a wide variety of hobgoblins built for different aspects of war.
Add in goblins as skirmishers and bugbears as burly but sneaky tanks and you have a terrifying army.
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Hobgoblin Kineticists are scary- just mentioning.
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The only thing that really seems that incongruous is the stealth bonus. Otherwise I think PK nailed it here.Even then, it means they can move quietly even when armored up. It's just a different sort of military discipline.
I feel like reducing ACP would be a better way to represent that.
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Eh. They don't need to be stealthy archers. They get bonuses to two physical stats. Those are stats they can largely ignore now.
Looking at the point buy- you can spend 2 points each on dex and con to get 'acceptible' levels, instead of 5. That saves you 6 points. You can then put that into strength to get a 16 or so without pulling points from anywhere, even on a 15 pt buy. The lack of penalty also means they don't have to feel like they are playing keep up like an orc does (since a hobgoblin might enjoy a good will save, or an intimidate check).
I wouldn't look to them to get 18 str... but you can get a 17 without dumping. That is a fairly good standard. They are more physically fit than the average human (that might put their stat bonus into a mental stat... which ultimately does little for them since they are probably a commoner). It is enough of an advantage to make them scary to normal people.
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I always thought the same, though with the alternate traits, a lot is possible.
That bonus to dex and sneak combined with darkvision would make them great for night raids, though. Without being necessarily ninjas, the bonuses would help them sneak up close to the enenmy and start the assault before an organized defense can be mounted, engaging the half-asleep scrambling enemy in a more traditional way than a bunch of sneaky goblin ninjas would.
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Looking at the point buy- you can spend 2 points each on dex and con to get 'acceptible' levels, instead of 5. That saves you 6 points. You can then put that into strength to get a 16 or so without pulling points from anywhere, even on a 15 pt buy. The lack of penalty also means they don't have to feel like they are playing keep up like an orc does (since a hobgoblin might enjoy a good will save, or an intimidate check).
This is a very good point, though it works out a bit differently with rolled stats.
With rolling, being able to skimp on a secondary stat doesn't do anything to increase your primary stat. What it does do is reduce the number of above-average rolls you need to pull off a given concept. That means a set of rolls that a really SAD set of stats could become much more feasible for a martial. It's a lot easier to also get the above-average mental stat for the engineers, scouts, or commanders.
Looking at two sets of stats using 4d6 drop lowest:
15, 14, 12, 10, 9, 9 (12 pb)
This is a poor set of stats to start with, and there's nothing you can do to get a 16+ strength out of it for a hobgoblin - I'd be pretty tempted to go Dex-based. But 15/16/14 is not unworkable for strength-based melee character, especially if you end up taking Combat Reflexes or TWF. You could also put the 12 or 14 in a mental stat and still have an above-average Dex & Con.
17, 15, 11, 11, 9, 8 (19 pb)
This one gives you a very solid strength, but not much else. A hobgoblin could either get a 13/17 Dex & Con (nice for heavy-armour martials), or 13/13 Dex/Con with a 15 in a mental stat.
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My only issue with this is that the artwork for Hobgoblins sometimes shows them as very bulky and muscular, when an elf-like build would make more sense, thematically. (Granted, there are plenty of humans with a Conan-like build, so it's not completely out of line for their to be *some* Hobgoblins with muscular builds.)
The same applied to the Warforged from the Eberron setting. Quite often the artwork made them seem to be not only incredibly muscular, but also bordering on size Large, and then their stats were nothing like the art portrayed them.
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One thing the +CON +DEX modifiers give Hobgoblins is flexibility. Since every class enjoys having more HP and more AC, there is basically no class that Hobgoblins are bad at. I can imagine that a large enough hobgoblin army would have a variety of different classes in it; in addition to Fighters, they'd have Rogues, Wizards, and possibly more specialized troops.
Could you imagine a Corps of Hobgoblin Occultists, trained to use the weapons of an army that came before them to devastating effect? How about a group of Hobgoblin ninja who make up the recon & black ops division of the army?
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One thing the +CON +DEX modifiers give Hobgoblins is flexibility. Since every class enjoys having more HP and more AC, there is basically no class that Hobgoblins are bad at. I can imagine that a large enough hobgoblin army would have a variety of different classes in it; in addition to Fighters, they'd have Rogues, Wizards, and possibly more specialized troops.
Could you imagine a Corps of Hobgoblin Occultists, trained to use the weapons of an army that came before them to devastating effect? How about a group of Hobgoblin ninja who make up the recon & black ops division of the army?
Yeah, good angle. As I mentioned- you can get a 16 on a 15 pt buy. On a 20 pt buy, they have more than enough room to go gish however they like (int, wis, cha). They don't have to fight against stat penalties when making their build.
It is fairly easy for the to become fairly varied. They are anti arcane, of course, but they love the BOOM of alchemists, and there would likely be room for an inquisitor, warp priest, or just a fighty cleric. Heck, just those 4 classes alone seem like a fairly good adventuring party.
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Since I first began playing the game in 1985 I imagined Hobgoblins as being more like Klingons (even slightly resembling them) than anything else. That was the immediate image that came to my mind when my character encountered them for the first time. In my homebrew setting, their kingdoms are the substitute for the Asian themed settings, since the 1e Monster Manual had them dressed in Samurai like armor.
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Since I first began playing the game in 1985 I imagined Hobgoblins as being more like Klingons (even slightly resembling them) than anything else.
I had the same idea, and one of my players even pointed it out, to which I replied, 'Wait 'till you see my Romulan Dark Elves...'
:)
That said, Claudio Pozas drew up some awesome Roman-style Hobgoblins here.
In my homebrew setting, their kingdoms are the substitute for the Asian themed settings, since the 1e Monster Manual had them dressed in Samurai-like armor.
Another cool way to twist them, although I would be wary of replacing entire human ethnicities with 'monsters.' Even replacing Scotsmen with dwarves can sometimes rub the wrong way.
I also liked the notion, back before Pathfinder introduced the notion of elves being from another planet (and more the Greyhawk trope of tying them somehow to a mysterious Faerie realm), that elves and hobgoblins were seelie and unseelie twists on each other (and that, more than anything else, defined their racial animus). In that setting, hobgoblins completely replaced dark elves, and were both cruel and elegant, slavers, conquerors and agents provocateur, living in underground cities, lean and mean (but not at all interested in chaos-loving matriarchal spider-demon-goddesses). With that setting tweak, gnomes and goblins were also fey-descended seelie and unseelie cousins (and the gnomish racial hatred of kobolds fell entirely on goblins), and bugbears hunted down and devoured any 'seelie' version of themselves ages ago, and had widened their 'racial hatred' from their dead sister race to *everyone,* (and thinking of themselves as some super-predators, top of the food chain, on 'safari' here on the material plane).
Obviously I'd watched too much Predator before that last one. :)
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Well Dwarves as scots is an overdone trope, really.
In my game, I modeled the hobgoblins after the Russian Empire. Expansionnist, militaristic, a bit "western" (human), but also a bit... foreign. They form that great empire on the border that the human nations don't really like and identify with, but also aren't really keen on provoking. Especially since both sides tend to occupy themselves with the gnollish tribes and orcish marauders.
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One thing the +CON +DEX modifiers give Hobgoblins is flexibility. Since every class enjoys having more HP and more AC, there is basically no class that Hobgoblins are bad at. I can imagine that a large enough hobgoblin army would have a variety of different classes in it; in addition to Fighters, they'd have Rogues, Wizards, and possibly more specialized troops.
Could you imagine a Corps of Hobgoblin Occultists, trained to use the weapons of an army that came before them to devastating effect? How about a group of Hobgoblin ninja who make up the recon & black ops division of the army?
Yeah, good angle. As I mentioned- you can get a 16 on a 15 pt buy. On a 20 pt buy, they have more than enough room to go gish however they like (int, wis, cha). They don't have to fight against stat penalties when making their build.
It is fairly easy for the to become fairly varied. They are anti arcane, of course, but they love the BOOM of alchemists, and there would likely be room for an inquisitor, warp priest, or just a fighty cleric. Heck, just those 4 classes alone seem like a fairly good adventuring party.
Anti-arcane? I'm pretty sure its the little goblins that have the words-fear. I could easily imagine a dedicated hobgoblin magic academy dedicated to better warfare through spellcasting.
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Well Dwarves as scots is an overdone trope, really.
Like heck it is, good priest.
Dwarves are awesome. Scots are awesome. When you put two awesomes together, it can't be overdone.
Unless, of course, you've got a problem with Scots . . .
And that would just be a crying shame.
Make your hobgoblins whatever you like, but let me have my dwarves with an awesome Scottish accent, please. I'm kind of a fan. ;)
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Anti-arcane? I'm pretty sure its the little goblins that have the words-fear. I could easily imagine a dedicated hobgoblin magic academy dedicated to better warfare through spellcasting.
It is in their basic bestiary entry from the get go- they hate arcane magic because they hate elves. They specifically call it 'elf magic'.
So even through they don't hate books, they hate arcane. So while a regular goblin might become a bard, since they use catch-y tunes to cast magic instead of those word stealing books, hobgoblins would hate that.
Even divine magic is kind of accepted begrudgingly, with the 'shamans' (the early bestiary 'uncivilized divine casters' before we even got things like witches, not the shaman class) being treated as outcasts. But that is still low enough that I could see them overcoming that aversion in order to get some caster troops.
But how about alchemists? They love them some fire and smoke, and alchemists are sufficiently separated from normal casters to be acceptable.
Overall- there are enough flavors of caster that hobgoblins could do well without going with wizards and such. Alchemists already have 6 levels of spells and bombs can basically be seen as a second set of spontaneous bombs- and alchemists can cover for int focused recruits rather than using wizards.
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This makes me wonder what would become of a Hobgoblin with sorcerer talent, or bloodrager talent for that matter...
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Well Dwarves as scots is an overdone trope, really.Like heck it is, good priest.
Dwarves are awesome. Scots are awesome. When you put two awesomes together, it can't be overdone.
Unless, of course, you've got a problem with Scots . . .
And that would just be a crying shame.
Make your hobgoblins whatever you like, but let me have my dwarves with an awesome Scottish accent, please. I'm kind of a fan. ;)
To be honest, I didn't reflavor them myself.
And while scots being awesome is a given, I'm not so convinced about that statement for dwarves. ;)
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you gobs are lucky you run faster than Dwarves :p.
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Dwarves are Small with none of the advantages. Goblins are small with few of the disadvantages. Everyone knows Goblins > Dwarves.
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This makes me wonder what would become of a Hobgoblin with sorcerer talent, or bloodrager talent for that matter...
There's more detail about hobgoblins in the Iron Fang Adventure path. Basically, if your a hobgoblin who is cursed with a sorcerer bloodline, best case scenario is probably exile.
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My only issue with this is that the artwork for Hobgoblins sometimes shows them as very bulky and muscular, when an elf-like build would make more sense, thematically. (Granted, there are plenty of humans with a Conan-like build, so it's not completely out of line for their to be *some* Hobgoblins with muscular builds.)
The same applied to the Warforged from the Eberron setting. Quite often the artwork made them seem to be not only incredibly muscular, but also bordering on size Large, and then their stats were nothing like the art portrayed them.
Elves, and everything with an elf like build has -con. Things that look buff like dwarves and hobgoblins +con. And hey, they don't call it "bear's strength"
Orcs may spend all day fighting but real muscle comes from working for a living. <the duergar pounding hot metal at his forge takes a moment to wipe the sweat from his brow and nods approvingly at the gnome across the workshop untightening a tough rusty bolt from a clockwork device with practiced ease>| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I imagine hobgobs are "strong" in the same sense that special forces or marines are strong; fast accurate strike forces that are in and out with their objective before you even knew they were there (and if you did, you're probably dead).
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Hobgoblins would excel in a modern military. High dex helps with shooting, not getting shot, and general agility based tasks. The toughest physical challenges are all endurance based, so the High Con is a huge benefit. They also aren't stupid and in fact have no penalties holding them back.
Their stats provide then with the ability to excel at complex tactics, which wI'll makes then scary when organized. Initiate combat with stealth archers, follow up with tough hand to hand fighter to fix the enemy's position while the archers continue to pick off their targets from a safe distance.
I wouldn't get caught up in the height of the monster. It doesn't matter if they are 4 feet tall or 8 feet tall, their still medium size and their exact height in inches isn't crunch.
That's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about, Hark. :-D
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RD, you had (have?) a hobgoblin pyrokineticist in your menagerie, yes? You think a Kinetic Knight version of the same concept works? I haven't gotten around to really trying to build a K-Knight yet.
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Yes, I think that would work fine if he could remain quiet despite wearing armor.
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In my homebrew setting, their kingdoms are the substitute for the Asian themed settings, since the 1e Monster Manual had them dressed in Samurai-like armor.Another cool way to twist them, although I would be wary of replacing entire human ethnicities with 'monsters.' Even replacing Scotsmen with dwarves can sometimes rub the wrong way.
Long before the LotR movies, my brother played Dwarves a lot, and they all had Scottish accents. I remember when we saw the movie he was like, "They ripped me off!" lol
As far as replacing other ethnicities with monsters, it doesn't seem to be a problem for my group. In fact, they rather like the idea of the Hobgoblins being the Oriental faction of our setting.
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RD, you had (have?) a hobgoblin pyrokineticist in your menagerie, yes? You think a Kinetic Knight version of the same concept works? I haven't gotten around to really trying to build a K-Knight yet.
Yes, I think that would work fine if he could remain quiet despite wearing armor.
For a cheap way to keep the ACP low while still gaining the benefit of elemental defense, consider using an armored kilt (which doesn't alter armor check penalty) to upgrade medium armor to heavy. I don't know that it's the most optimal way to approach the situation, but it's cheap and simple.
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bugbears are even more burly and muscled
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I really like Scottish Dwarves, given that they usually live in the same sort of places as we Scots. (Mountainous highlands, plus the obsession with metals and industriousness evoking the "reins of the world" attitude that Glasgow had during the Victorian era.)
I also think that Con would represent a sorta bulky muscularity, and you need to be strong to be Dexterous, even if it's not a forceful Strength.
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A high Con means healthy. That annoying guy in the cubicle next to you who never gets sick and makes everyone else look bad is the jerk with the 18 Con score.
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I prefer to flavor my Dwarves as more German/Germanic in nature. Less drunk Scotsman and more Volkswagen engineer
Also, to keep on topic, Hobgoblins in my setting are basically modeled after the Peacekeepers from Farscape. A highly skilled and powerful mercenary force who hire themselves out to solve military conflicts that others can't or or don't want to involve themselves with.
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Hobgoblins are described as "burly and muscled" in the advanced race guide, as well as "Tall, tough as nails, and strongly built". Taller than what? Goblins? The Bestiary says they are 5' tall and weigh 160 lbs.
Militaristic, war-loving, etc. OK, fine. They are meant to be lawful, disciplined orcs according to the fluff.
While your post carries some truth, this misconception here is the primary source of your confusion.
Hobgoblins are not orcs. They are nothing like orcs, save that they are a martial, evil race. However, where orcs are brutish and short-sighted, hobgoblins are canny and ambitious. Where orcs are direct and destructive, hobgoblins are scheming and innovative. Hobgoblins are, in reality, lawful, disciplined goblins—or perhaps stronger, more ambitious kobolds.
Yes, hobgoblins are a race of warriors. But how do they apply their warlike ways? Not in Roman-style formation, or brutish orc raids. They are soldiers, yes, but they are honorless in their tactics. Hobgoblins think nothing of poisoning a river, or of attacking an enemy under the quiet of night. Their "intelligence" is represented in their mastery of subtlety, their lawful alignment, and, as you said, several alternate racial traits.
Why are hobgoblins sneaky? Because all goblinoids, even the warlike hobgoblins, are sneaky. Just because they've picked up the tools of a warrior doesn't change their roots.
The new look is goofy as f#$%, though.
What always bugged me was the hobgoblin's hatred for arcane magic. With such a militaristic focus it always seemed weird that they'd shun just how powerful fielding spellcasters in their army would be. Even just Bards would be a huge force multiplier for their troops. That they don't seems at best unwise and at worst outright suicidal when they'd be facing an enemy that doesn't have their same hesitance.
Yes, hobgoblins hate arcane magic, and this is for very specific reasons, not simply Paizo wanting to "ignore the impact of magic". Hobgoblins were created to destroy elves, and they've never really forgotten that. Neither have elves. Hobgoblins have strong pride in their species, and don't believe they should need to use "elven magic". That elves will always be better at magic than hobgoblins due to their racial abilities likely adds to this prejudice—if a guy you hated was a way better skier than you, and always would be, you'd probably want to pick up snowboarding instead. Better to exceed an enemy at some other practice than to always be second-best.
Yes, hobgoblins are clever, but they aren't mindless drones to the optimal tactic. They have several major flaws in their strategic sense, such as their endless ambition, evident inability to practice long-term diplomacy, and, of course, their senseless hatred of a tool as powerful as wizardly magic. That's, y'know, probably why they only have a 10 Intelligence.
Also, low-level clerics are really a lot better than low-level wizards at mass buffing.
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They are soldiers, yes, but they are honorless in their tactics.Which is a bit funny considering they're almost always LE.
Fair, I misspoke. The hobgoblin code of "honor" is wholly different from the human code of honor, and so they see no honor in a "fair fight".
Plus hobgoblins hate snowboarding too.
"Snowboarding" is the divine magic/alchemy equivalent here. :P
Probably but they only have a marginally higher opinion of divine magic
Really? Because there are both spellcasting rangers and clerics in their section of the Monster Codex. So while they might dislike it (and I'm not sure where you get that), they're still fully open to its tactical potential, clearly, making it an actual "racial quirk".
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Long before the LotR movies, my brother played Dwarves a lot, and they all had Scottish accents. I remember when we saw the movie he was like, "They ripped me off!" lol
You weren't the only ones. Lets just say that the trope was not invented by Peter Jackson.
In an all-dwarf campaign I played in once, some of the players decided that they were from the same clan (all all used a Scottish accent). I decided that my dwarf was from a different region/clan and spoke with an irish accent. It was a different twist, but honestly not quite as satisfying.
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The new look is goofy as f*%!, though.
I really dislike the Monster Codex/Iron Fang look for Hobgoblins. The ARG guide look was great. They were distinctive and noticeably goblinoid...basically goblins on steroids
The new look just makes them look like off color orcs (or really ugly drow...or even some ghouls). I'd be okay with it if Orcs were goblinoids, or hobgoblins were orcs...but...bleh. I would much prefer something more creative.