Sheriff Belor Hemolock

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Dragonchess Player wrote:


Is it "realistic" that a Tier 8 Small shuttle can probably defeat a Tier 7 Large destroyer (i.e., a Corpse Fleet Barrow Spectre) in a straight-up fight, without too much trouble? Or a Tier 16 Medium transport can easily defeat a Tier 14 Gargantuan battleship (i.e., a Thaumtech Omenbringer)? Not really.

I mean, as a game that's heavily rooted into fantasy, sure it can. Think of it as a small "suped up" ship, like something you see in games like Ikaruga, Gradius, Radiant Silvergun etc..


thenobledrake wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
I think it means if you have two forms of resistances that apply to the same damage, take the higher value. Such as, if you have DR10/Bludgeoning and DR5/Slashing, you reduce 10 points of damage from a piercing attack, not 15.

That's not how damage resistances are phrased in this version - it's not "this amount, except if this type of damage" except in unique circumstances like resist physical 10 (except silver).

Resistances are phrased as "this type of damage is reduced by this amount" - so if a creature takes less piercing damage, but not less bludgeoning or slashing damage, that creature has "resist piercing 5" or the like.

Which is how the phrase "more than one type of resistance that would apply" is distinctly a different thing from "resistance from more than one source" or "more than one instance of the same type of resistance"

I keep getting the versions mixed up, but I still think it's intended to work like I suggested. It makes a lot more sense, in that case, because why do I suddenly stop resisting fire damage (or physical) if I have physical resistance and fire resistance at the same time.

It may just be bad wording. Is that the only thing about it that's written? Were there no examples?


thenobledrake wrote:

I went looking for the rules quote that supports applying resistance against each type of damage being dealt, but when I got to the page it is on (453) I saw something I think actually contradicts how I thought it worked:

"If you have more than one type of resistance that would apply to the same instance of damage, use only the highest applicable resistance value."

That seems to be saying that the skeleton in the OP would only reduce the total damage by the higher of its resistances.

Originally I had thought resistances would be figured independently and follow the example in the paragraph following the above quote even though that paragraph is explicitly talking about having resistance to all damage, and that what I've quoted above was actually saying that if you have the same type of resistance from different sources that you only use the highest, but those aren't the words that are there.

I think it means if you have two forms of resistances that apply to the same damage, take the higher value. Such as, if you have DR10/Bludgeoning and DR5/Slashing, you reduce 10 points of damage from a piercing attack, not 15.


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I don't mind lower level mooks remaining threatening to people higher level than they are, but eventually a line has to be made. Can't say I'd enjoy my character that can battle a Godzilla sized creature head on, trade blows, and possibly even overpower it, only for that character to get mobbed and killed by a group of mooks next week or something.


Sure, but you weren't very specific how you wanted them to travel in it. You can downgrade your quarters from luxurious to common for 120 instead.

But yes, as the poster above says, you should probably handwave it.


Expansion bays can be converted into passenger seatings that hold 16 people, and the colossal frame holds 20 of them. If this still isn't enough, for some reason, just handwave it.


In your first example, they would simply take damage and nothing more. You can describe them as having to jump out of the way, maybe getting knocked over, as to how they took damage.

For your second example, size isn't really a factor if it's impossible or not to dodge out of the way or not. Though they maybe could've bumped the DCs higher to model that it's harder to avoid (like DC = 15 + 1 per size above small, for example). Just because you are "standing" in your square space when a colossal object tumbles down towards you doesn't make it impossible. This is simply a game mechanic and an abstraction, as it's assumed that you're generally always moving. The same reason why a Monk can evade a 20' radius fireball in their square without actually physically moving your character. It's also your prerogative as a GM to bury your player that fails a saving throw against a sizable object that falls on them.

I wouldn't worry too much about realism whether it makes sense to survive in such a circumstance. Most of the content in this game simply couldn't exist if this were a factor to be taken seriously. It helps when you describe it in a believable way, like a giant boulder simply tumbles down a hill rather than falling out of the sky, as an explanation for the survival of the lower level victim. It becomes less important when your mid level party is capable of fighting against building sized earth elementals while trading blows, to even a 20th level party fighting against monsters that can seemingly throw entire mountains (hekatonkhieries).


Garretmander wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Sort of off topic, but I think it's weird that they insist on making shotguns attack in cones. Feels less like a shotgun and more like something out of Contra :p
The Breach Gun is a more standard shotgun.
I'm not sure what weapon you're referring to. I looked and couldn't find anything. Is it a weapon quality?
A series of projectile longarms from the armory.

Thanks.

Seems like they divided the ammunition types from Pathfinder into two different weapons entirely.


Milo v3 wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Sort of off topic, but I think it's weird that they insist on making shotguns attack in cones. Feels less like a shotgun and more like something out of Contra :p
The Breach Gun is a more standard shotgun.

I'm not sure what weapon you're referring to. I looked and couldn't find anything. Is it a weapon quality?


Sort of off topic, but I think it's weird that they insist on making shotguns attack in cones. Feels less like a shotgun and more like something out of Contra :p


And here I thought it was a charisma based warrior archetype.


Good job on these. It sucks that this didn't seem to gather much attention on here and is definitely worth necroing. Seems like you're still updating this, so props for sticking to your guns.

A lot of the statblocks look pretty good, to me. It's a fun and interesting read that I think people should at least take a look at.

A few minor nitpicks/criticism for some of your higher CR monsters from both a narrative and gameplay standpoint. Like, for example, the Plasma Beetle (Starship Troopers) is CR20, despite how several of them are quickly disposed of by a small squad of soldiers with handheld rocket launchers (as opposed to the tactical/advanced missile launchers commonly found on massive military vehicles, to put it into perspective). Monsters with CRs on this level are meant to represent apocalyptic scale threats, not something you can just send a squad to deal with or even nuke from orbit.

I would look into the background/lore of some of the higher CR monsters to have more of a grasp of the scale they're meant to represent, since there are several others that I disagree with like the Xenomorph T-rex (CR24). If you compare that T-rex to the Rendalairn (CR25) based off its purview, you'll quickly see what I mean and maybe have a laugh from it. It's also easier to stat up and run monsters in actual games that use more reasonable statistics if you try to avoid bigger numbers if necessary.


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Hawk Kriegsman wrote:

In my game I have house ruled that Grenades do get the damage bonus from Weapon Specialization.

Makes grenades a bit more viable.

If I had to choose, I probably would have greatly reduced the price of them. Maybe they'll feel less like you're throwing money bags at your enemies :p


pithica42 wrote:
Collossal power armor is going to have the same fundamental problem that the Garguantuan (and other large ones) do. It's going to need to be high level because of its relative power and therefore unavailable to most people in most games.

That is to be expected, but there still should be at least one that's colossal sized to fill the empty space.


WatersLethe wrote:

Lots of ship hallways are 5ft wide, slowing you down.

If you go unconscious, your party might not be able to carry you to safety because you're a 600 pound bear.

Idk about the hallway issue, since I'd imagine Paizo would accommodate larger races by making bigger areas in their APs. Maybe not, though.

The weight problem should be a non-issue. It's not any different then using a combat maneuver to reposition the large character, since it's not weight dependent. I don't know if it would be worth actually enforcing this possible weight problem, unless you can somehow make it interesting.


Hopefully Armory 2 (if it's actually a thing) will have colossal sized powered armor this time since they didn't want to do it in the first one. Definitely more vehicles, too. I feel like these two are the most lacking in variety.


kadance wrote:

I like the resolve point idea, but I don't want to hijack this thread.

If you want to make a post in the homebrew section, we can further refine the idea.

There really isn't much else to this thread, anyway, since the question already got answered. It sort of already is a homebrew topic starting from the third post.

While I don't plan on making a thread about it, since I don't know where I would start, but I definitely will give my 2 cents if someone else does or discusses it here.


Sounds fun and all, but I can't imagine that players would appreciate NPCs throwing back their own grenades that costed the players way more money than they're really worth. If anything I would make it a feat or cost a point of resolve, so NPCs generally won't have access to that ability.


Xenocrat wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:

Yeah, I don't get what makes a 20 ft.+ tall mecha covered in weapons and modified with various mods not count as a mech. Game already has mech rules.

What do people want from mecha rules that isn't already present that isn't better represented by expanding the power armour options?

My guess is they don't want a level 5 driver in a level 15 gargantuan power armor suit to have a tiny HP pool and be really inaccurate with their integrated weapons.

True that weapon attacks are like this, whether it's in a starship, vehicle, or powered armor, but I actually don't mind the smaller HP pool. It can make sense that the pilot gets killed before the mech gets destroyed, while this is very difficult to do in other modes of combat.


Claxon wrote:

Adding mechs into Starfinder could only be 1 of 2 ways in my opinion.

1) You make a system like the Starship system, and everyone gets a mech with build points.

2) You make them work off the vehicle rules.

I think the second option would be very dissatisfying.

But doing the first would be a major undertaking.

I mean number 2 is only dissatisfying if you view the entire creature scale for vehicles and such as dissatisfying.

Making them starship scale is nice and dandy and all, and it's probably a lot more simple. However, what people need to understand is that if you want Mechs to participate in ground combat or fight against Kaiju on ground, they need to be creature scale to effectively do so. There's no two ways about it.

Making them starship scale works, if you only plan on using them in space. Otherwise, you'll be doing much more unnecessary work.


Master Han Del of the Web wrote:

Yeah, part of the reason I'm actually anti-mech is that in most settings that include them, they are portrayed as being the only real viable combat option despite being impressively impractical. If they were very specifically balanced for a specific use, I'd be more into the idea but they almost never are.

Introducing mechs as a new equipment category would shift focus away from some things that really need more love, like the other non-starship vehicles (I still can't have a viable motorcycle at most levels).

In the end, I'm much happier to leave scratching the mech-itch with oversized power armor.

The reason that they're the only viable option in some settings is because the Mechs themselves are higher level than any other vehicle and individual that can pilot them. It's really no different than CR1 soldiers piloting tanks and fighter jets; they're not meant to be equals in this circumstance.

If you want them balanced, then you have to keep them around the levels that PCs are currently at, so they won't really outperform anybody else.

Conceptually, mechs and powered armor are the same thing, except it's not called a "mech."


Rohne wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Powered Armor is pretty much their stand-in for mechs, as they can go up to colossal size. The biggest we have in the books so far is gargantuan (32-64'), but some people are understandably unsatisfied the way they've been modeled.
So what kind of adaptive rules would we need for something like twin-pilot Jaegers like Gypsy Danger (Pacific Rim movie) that stands at 288'?

While I don't think Paizo would make Powered Armor require 2 pilots, as that's more of a vehicle thing in this game, I can offer how I think they would do it.

It would be Colossal size, obviously, but it probably would have access to all the abilities that the pilots have while using their highest statistics and modifiers between the 2 pilots, while still acting as a single creature.


Powered Armor is pretty much their stand-in for mechs, as they can go up to colossal size. The biggest we have in the books so far is gargantuan (32-64'), but some people are understandably unsatisfied the way they've been modeled.


The Gleeful Grognard wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:

Imo, ruling that bows can't fire while prone because it's too difficult in real life is a "Guy at the Gym Fallacy."

I understand where some people are coming from, but I don't really think it's necessary to include this in a game were you can go toe to toe with beings 10x your height and trade blows with each other.

I just think it's strange that it's okay for some areas of the game to be completely unrealistic on a comic book level, only to get pulled back into realism when determining if it's possible to fire your bow at a certain position. I also really doubt that anyone would complain if Hawkeye or even Legolas fired their bow while prone.

I don't think anyone is actually saying that this should be implemented, it is just a part of the discussion of what penalties are applied, why and how it is justified.

I don't know if it was intentionally, but tonally your post came across far more agressive than necessary in my opinion.

There are a few posts that do suggest that firing a bow in this position should be or next to impossible.

It's probably far from the first time where someone thinks I'm being aggressive. I'm not, I'm just used to being rather blunt since I've found it to be the best way to make my point clear.

Maybe I'm just not good with people :p


Imo, ruling that bows can't fire while prone because it's too difficult in real life is a "Guy at the Gym Fallacy."

I understand where some people are coming from, but I don't really think it's necessary to include this in a game were you can go toe to toe with beings 10x your height and trade blows with each other.

I just think it's strange that it's okay for some areas of the game to be completely unrealistic on a comic book level, only to get pulled back into realism when determining if it's possible to fire your bow at a certain position. I also really doubt that anyone would complain if Hawkeye or even Legolas fired their bow while prone.


I looked at the Bulbasaur and evolutions. They seem pretty fine to me. My opinion is that I would reduce the CRs of them all to give more wiggle room for higher level versions (like the game) for the sake of simplicity. Like, just as an example, Bulbasaur, Ivysaur, and Venusaur would be CR 1, 4, and 7, respectively, but that's just me.


Fist of the North Star is a great example of a fictional martial arts character. I remember hearing/reading about how they wanted to include a class that has unarmed combat as the main focus, with Fist of the North Star as inspiration, iirc. Idk what happened to that, lol.

Not really important, but John Wick probably just has improved unarmed strike, since he's much more effective with firearms than unarmed attacks. Unless your suggesting he's a gun-monk :p


Having an advantage against your opponent like this isn't exclusive to welding high tech weaponry, as it can be as simple as having the high ground. You could've referenced other movies with this same scenario without access to advanced weapons, like Conan the Barbarian.

Awarding XP in this instance is really a case by case basis. Do you want to award them with XP because you put them in the position to run over hordes of zombies with a truck? Do you want to give them XP for surviving the odds until they found a higher level weapon?

In any case, your party should be appropriately leveled for your campaign in mind, in whatever way you see fit.


On size categories, other than space and reach, it doesn't make a difference.

Larger vehicles have changes to their damage dice and reflex save DC when they ram things, but that's it for vehicles.


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

Though it is rare, some damai are born with an instinct of where infant kaiju are, and can communicate with them psychically. This is often seen as a mixed blessing, at best, though some damai do gain infant kaiju companions.

#Starfound

Which I'm willing to bet the Colossi, by the time it's a toddler, is smart enough to play chess while having a conversation with their companions.

That's one of the things I really like and mildly dislike about the Colossi. They are literally smart enough to be the BBEG mastermind in any campaign they're apart of since their mental scores are so high. Yet, they're still treated like they're straight out of Pacific Rim when they are much more than that.


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WatersLethe wrote:

There's a lot of hand wringing about it being too soon for a rules update/change, but personally I would buy a Starfinder Unchained in a nanosecond.

I love Starfinder. Their setting is great, the art, the adventures, the stories, and everything are top notch. I've been having an absolute blast playing a Solarian Android for a couple years now.

However, the rules have never been *that* great.

Here are just a few of the things that irk me:

1. Small arms are over-nerfed because of Operatives
2. Archetypes are absolutely useless
3. Theme ability score boost is nearly inconsequential
4. There are too many races and not enough meat on each one.
5. Weapon and armor lists are huge and difficult to skim through for no good reason. Armor will always wind up in nearly the same place, and there are *still* many levels where you can't find a weapon you truly want.
6. Cantrips don't scale.
7. Action economy is weird, and multiple attacks are unsatisfying flurry of misses.
8. Grenades are useless.
9. You can't wear enough magic items.
10. The skill system is frustrating and too swingy.

I could go on...

I think the issue with grenades is that they are too expensive. Otherwise, having an AoE that you can full attack with isn't too bad.

But, I guess while where at it, maybe they could've explained what happens when an AoE weapon crits.

And maybe, as wild and crazy as it sounds, maybe they'll have the gonads to properly explain what happens when a starship fires at a creature on ground and provide an actual example of it xD


Dracomicron wrote:
Nothing stops you from reflavoring PF2E as science-fantasy, you know.

Yeah, really. It's a simple palette swap with minor mechanic changes, is all it is. Even PF1 did it.


Kimera757 wrote:

At what level should martials be allowed to be unrealistic? For instance, jumping (without a magic item) is limited to about 30 feet in real life. The best Olympic jumpers can hit that figure. A fighter in an anti-magic field can exceed that at high levels.

However noone can run as fast as Usain Bolt without magic. Even monks have an enhancement bonus to speed.

And a fighter can (after some levels) survive falls that would kill the toughest person. (Once in a blue moon, someone will survive a fall from an airplane, but that's luck.)

I think the game suggests that there's more to being fast than just land speed, as even cats and leopards have a speed of 30 while having high Dex scores. Imo Usain would just have the run feat and maybe something else.


I never realized until now that advanced missiles are not an AoE. I thought it was a typo, but it seems like it's intentional.

I agree, they are very expensive for what they are capable of. I guess they're good for low level NPCs/PCs, like using them while mounted on military vehicles and whatnot. I can't imagine why an equivalent level PC would use it, however.


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I don't think so. I don't have the book on hand, so I looked it up on the starjammer website and found this.

Quote:
Weapons-See Weapon Proficiency in Tactical Rules for more information on how proficiency affects you. When you reach 3rd level in that class, you also gain Weapon Specialization (as per the feat) in those weapons, which allows you to add your class level to your damage rolls with those weapons (see Weapon Specialization for more information). Grenades, missiles, and other consumable weapons never add specialization damage, even when you’re using weapons like a cyberbow or grenade launcher.

This is in the class description section, but if you really need a page number on the CRB, I can provide that later if no one else does.


I like that idea Metaphysician posted, using a form of a damage threshold instead of using an obnoxiously high hardness that most would suggest.

What I wanted to see lately is at least one more monster that can function on both scales, and it made no sense to me that the outer dragons aren't capable of doing this. When I asked why when AA2 came out, other users told me "but if dragons can fight ships, then the PCs will never have a chance on foot." Like, if you're going to tell me that in the same game where PCs are allowed to fight and defeat monsters that can annihilate entire technologically advanced civilizations, implying that starships couldn't even help them, then I'm calling bull on that.


Garretmander wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
I know what you're trying to say, but honestly your comparisons are very bizarre. In what situation would you have where there's 500 fifth level characters with holy rifles all shooting this thing at...

If this devil is attacking a large military base, I'd think there are at least five hundred dudes with guns. Not to mention tanks, or heavy weapons, or any number of other things.

Them having the right weapons is less likely, but possible at a worldy scale. They need to be holy if projectile, or sonic, or electric guns to damage on a hit. Holy autotarget rifles are only ~50% more expensive than the base. Tremor boomer rifles are half that price and don't need a fusion. Some organizations are more likely to have these weapons than others, some are less likely.

But, in another example, if a level 17 soldier can beg his GM to let him hang out the airlock and shoot his level 17 reaction cannon during a flyby attack, (14.4% per hit, if you can 'full attack' during a flyby attack it's a lot) and be nearly as effective as shooting this creature/starship with a heavy antimatter missile (28.9%)... it's just silly.

I get that, but you're supposed to assume that the creature is powerful enough to easily deal with a military base, as it's stated that it's designed to create beachheads upon even the most well defended planets. You don't actually run the encounter using hundreds or thousands of enemies, the game can't do this well and isn't meant to.

I can't say that I'm surprised that a 17th level character with their cannon can compare. Considering their weapon is powerful enough to make a mockery of a highly advanced hovertank's main cannon coupled with the expertise of a 17th level character (CR17+ monsters often played godlike roles in Pathfinder), it's not very surprising at all.

Also, you're only comparing a single starship weapon attack to a full attack from a high level character, when the ship easily can have several launchers at once. So the starship is still capable of inflicting more damage. Once you get to the mega missile launchers, it's not even a comparison, anymore.

Here's a comparison you can make, though. Take 2 endbringers and have them use their supergrasers against each other, then compare that damage to their full attack hellfire glare against each other (ignoring fire immunity). They're actually closer in damage, relatively, than you would think.


Garretmander wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:

See, I can't make any sense of this logic.

Higher level/tier creatures have an easier time dealing damage than lower level/tier creatures, regardless of what weapons are being used. This is how d20 games have always worked.

Just because something can survive repeated hits from something powerful doesn't mean that something weaker can't harm it. For example, if a tier 8 huge starship is failing to damage an enemy ship with its capital weapons, due to lower attack bonuses, doesn't mean a higher tier tiny starship can't damage the same target with its much smaller and weaker weapons. The game doesn't work like this.

The fact that you're comparing 20th level creature scale weapons, the most powerful weapons of their kind in existence, to common knives and pistols is very baffling to me. I would strongly consider rethinking your assumptions.

A holy gasconade hand cannon wielded by a level 20 character, does something like 13.5% of the creature statblock's health on a hit. (8.6% without weapon spec). Five hundred level 5 soldiers armed with holy autotarget rifles will bring down an endbringer in one round, assuming 5% of their attacks are natural 20s.

A hit by a tactical nuclear device, as fired by a starship, does something like 11.3% of the starship statblock's hull points on average. Nine-ish tactical nukes will bring this thing down (assuming they all hit, and it's shields are down)

Yes, many PC created ships will have much better weapons available than a tactical nuke. I don't think a pistol, even a pocket anti-tank weapon like the gasconade, should be comparable in damage to nukes. One tactical nuke should not have a similar effect as sixty automatic rifles.

This is why I have issues with creatures that operate on both scales.

I know what you're trying to say, but honestly your comparisons are very bizarre. In what situation would you have where there's 500 fifth level characters with holy rifles all shooting this thing at the same time? If you can't viably simulate this encounter even remotely on a battlemat, then it honestly doesn't have much of a place in this discussion. It really feels like you're just abusing game mechanics by using this form of gameplay cheese to reinforce your point. If the auto hit on 20 didn't exist, you couldn't even make this point. The game isn't intended to handle this type of scenario, which is evident even in Pathfinder with the addition of troop subtypes and mass combat rules.

I can make a scenario that's just as ridiculous and meaningless as this one. For example, let's drop thousands of level 1 grenades on the Kyokor until it's dead. It doesn't have evasion or damage reduction, so it's going to die, despite being a 20,000 ton monster with a carapace harder than most metals. However, this same tactic couldn't even scratch a basic, ordinary concrete wall, even though a disintegrate spell utterly atomizes it (which, by the way, even a nuke can't do). Am I going to draw some conclusion by comparing these two? No, because I'm well aware that it's a ridiculous comparison that's just abusing gameplay mechanics.

I also liked that you had to use weapons with the Holy Quality, because you're well aware they aren't powerful enough on their own to make any impact on this discussion. If you want to make some comparisons, not that ground and space weapons need exact symmetry, let's not start with fictional magical holy weapons that the demon is obviously weak to. It just isn't very convincing if that's what you need to do.


Garretmander wrote:
Metaphysician wrote:
This way, you could have buildings which are not subject to being destroyed by shooting them repeatedly with a handgun, but which can't also shrug off nuclear blasts because they have five digit hit points

It fixes the oddities with buildings, but doesn't really do anything with starship/creatures.

The endbringer devil is a huge starship and a colossal creature.

If it's creature statblock and it's starship statblock are technically the same statblock... it's going to be more vulnerable to either small arms or starship weapons, which is a problem.

If you want on foot level 20 characters to deal with this thing, then nukes should deal with it even better than... pistols and knives and such.

If you want starship weapons to be necessary to take this thing down, well, it shouldn't have a 'on foot' statblock.

If you want both to threaten it, well, then a high level laser pistol needs to be equivalent to a nuke, which is silly.

See, I can't make any sense of this logic.

Higher level/tier creatures have an easier time dealing damage than lower level/tier creatures, regardless of what weapons are being used. This is how d20 games have always worked.

Just because something can survive repeated hits from something powerful doesn't mean that something weaker can't harm it. For example, if a tier 8 huge starship is failing to damage an enemy ship with its capital weapons, due to lower attack bonuses, doesn't mean a higher tier tiny starship can't damage the same target with its much smaller and weaker weapons. The game doesn't work like this.

The fact that you're comparing 20th level creature scale weapons, the most powerful weapons of their kind in existence, to common knives and pistols is very baffling to me. I would strongly consider rethinking your assumptions.


Looked at the book again, and there's a few things I like about it.

I like the Tripod, a lot. Flavorful and has a vehicle form for others to use, possibly. I think that's a nice touch. Reasonable CR, which is great, since most people's knee jerk reaction to anything that's based off something from a book, movie, comic, cartoon, whatever, is to make it with a special snowflake statblock that's too bloated for what it is. It's just something I personally appreciate, a lot.

I like the Tekenki, since I generally am a big fan of giant monsters, and I really like that the "kaiju" of this game use reasonable CRs, unlike Pathfinder. I still don't like that it has to use a 150' square space. That's just too big for what it is. 30-60' would have been fine.

A criticism I have about the Colossi in general is that they seem to have a number of useless abilities. Demolish Structures should just either ignore hardness all around or maybe 20-30 points. It only works on structures, and given that even a concrete wall has an ungodly amount of health, for some reason, this just isn't particularly useful at all. It should affect more than just structures. Sense The Masses is another rather useless ability. They probably should have noted in the monster's description that it can sense large gathering from some indeterminate distance. It shouldn't actually be an ability.

I like the Space Tardigrade, but of course I'm going to note that a monster like this easily could have had normal creature scale statistics in addition to its starship stats. It probably wouldn't need much room to do this, either. It could have been noted in the monsters description that if you wanted to simulate a Space Tardigrade in atmosphere, use the Colossal Predator statblock in AA2 with its adaptation abilities, starflight, and a projectile with a given amount damage dice and it's bonus. Idk, it just bothers me to no end, as far as this game is concerned, that there are literally space monsters that can't even interact with each other. It's not even like it's because it's too big or anything, considering that there are a number of monsters with more impressive backgrounds and physical stature than this thing has. Whatever, I guess.

I feel like there are far too many races in this book, which is something I thought I'd never complain about. Considering that the monsters for Starfinder are limited to begin with, having a book jammed with tons of races makes me wish they had their own book all together, like an advanced race guide. Seems like they won't be doing that at this rate, anytime soon.

All things considered, the book's alright, for me. Would have been nice to have more GM monsters.


Garretmander wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:

I'm mostly kinda weirded out how radically weaker fire whales are vs starships compared to end bringer devils vs ground troops and vs starships.

Like Fire whale is CR 16 creature, but in Dawn of Flame one augmented by cybernetics is Tier 1/2 starship. So either the cybernetics greatly weakened it or there is something weird going on when comparing end bringer devil cr 19 vs starship tier 14

And yet the fire whale's creature stat block is still easier to destroy than a typical starship bulkhead.

Less ridiculously tough starship stats for medium and smaller ships (and better stats for the ultimatum hover carrier) would go a long way to making creature stat blocks and starship stat blocks interact in a way that makes any sense.

Until that happens, I prefer leaving them to not interact at all.

Walls follow completely different rules, and they what you interact with when damaging a massive vehicle while boarding it. A little weird, but it's stated in page 272. This is why the hovercarrier doesn't have thousands of health.


CorvusMask wrote:

I'm mostly kinda weirded out how radically weaker fire whales are vs starships compared to end bringer devils vs ground troops and vs starships.

Like Fire whale is CR 16 creature, but in Dawn of Flame one augmented by cybernetics is Tier 1/2 starship. So either the cybernetics greatly weakened it or there is something weird going on when comparing end bringer devil cr 19 vs starship tier 14

Was it a different team of devs? It wouldn't surprise me, since every alien archive feels like it had completely different writers each time because they don't feel very consistent with each other, imo.


Metaphysician wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:

Got to go over it again, but some of it is very "meh," to me.

Just sort a pet peeve of mine, but I'm not a fan of how they correlate the monster's actual dimensions on board with its described size. I forget the name of the robot colossi monster, but just because it's 150' long doesn't mean it should take up a 150' square space. A monster's square space is just a representation, not actually meant to simulate the monster's actual size. All it does is make the monster much more difficult to use. This is something I'd expect in a 3rd party product or in the homebrew section.

I still find it annoying that powerful monsters like the Tzitzimitl that are primarily found in space are devoid of having starship statistics, despite having a precedence in the first alien archive. I guess we're still clinging on to this outdated idea that monsters with creature scale statistics can't fight starships in this sci-fi fantasy game, and basically just shapes up to be a less interesting monster with less abilities than its Pathfinder counterpart.

Here's a thought: standardized "space combat" rules similar to the monster builder rules in AA 1, with a chart of standardized stat lines by tier. A monster takes "space capable" as a special ability, and gains ship stats from the chart of ( say ) Tier = CR -5. Maybe have three separate charts, one each for Combatant, Expert, and Spellcaster, with slightly different arrays of stats ( Combatants get more HP and damage, Experts get better skill codes, Spellcasters get more special abilities ). Have a few pages of "ship form" special abilities, with guidelines on which ones go with which kind of ground abilities. There, you now have a relatively easy way to make monsters that can fight in space.

I appreciate the response. I've never had an issue making my own custom monsters, and I actually have a bunch of premade monsters like this that I made over a year ago.

I wanted Paizo to have another take at this type of monster instead of just throwing the concept in the trash. Creatures like the Outer dragons/"space dragons" in AA2 were perfect for having some form of starship statistics (I put space dragons in quotations because they don't feel like real space dragons to me), and it could've encouraged GMs to make more interesting encounters with them. As they are now, they can't even properly interact with other actual space monsters in space without homebrew, and I think that's just embarrassing to write your "space dragons" like this. I brought up the Tzitzimitl because, again, yet another high CR space monster that can't have meaningful interactions in space. Of course not. I feel like if the Endbringer Devil were made in AA2-3, instead of 1, it probably wouldn't have starship statistics either, and would rather lazily imply that it can do stuff in space, instead.

I get it, it's their game and that's their prerogative, but that doesn't mean I have to pretend to like it, either.


Got to go over it again, but some of it is very "meh," to me.

Just sort a pet peeve of mine, but I'm not a fan of how they correlate the monster's actual dimensions on board with its described size. I forget the name of the robot colossi monster, but just because it's 150' long doesn't mean it should take up a 150' square space. A monster's square space is just a representation, not actually meant to simulate the monster's actual size. All it does is make the monster much more difficult to use. This is something I'd expect in a 3rd party product or in the homebrew section.

I still find it annoying that powerful monsters like the Tzitzimitl that are primarily found in space are devoid of having starship statistics, despite having a precedence in the first alien archive. I guess we're still clinging on to this outdated idea that monsters with creature scale statistics can't fight starships in this sci-fi fantasy game, and basically just shapes up to be a less interesting monster with less abilities than its Pathfinder counterpart.


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Space monsters are reskinned starships with a few differences, sometimes.

Yes, 20 is the highest, and it will probably remain the highest since increasing it doesn't really do anything for the game.


Meant to say thousand feet high, not fight. Autocorrect is pretty bad.


The biggest creature, that I'm aware of, is Oliphant of Jandelay, which stands several thousand feet fight. Another creature I can think of is the Aspodochelone, which is a whale the size of a small island. They're represented by having gigantic square spaces, much larger than 30', but playing something this big is going to require homebrewing.


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Malach the Merciless wrote:

Dungeons & Dragons and all it's iterations from it's humble beginnings (including Pathfinder and Starfinder) have always been a simulation. The rules are a abstract way to simulate what happens. So to try to make a D20 roll "realistic" you'll rip your hair out and look like me, a bald middle aged man.

Because of the abstract simulation nature of the game, you need to have some creativity.

For example, many high level character could survive a jump of a 15 story building, that of course is not realistic buy because of the abstract simulated nature of the rules of falling the could.

So what do you do? Well it depends on the character and style of game you want to play.

Lets say they did in the in a Call of Cthulhu game? They would be dead

Let's say they did this in a high fantasy super heroic Pathfinder game? Well it might be allowed, the character had done a few things to prevent his out right dead (ex used some acrobatics to parkour down the building, slowing themselves a bit and landing in a hay stack, they got hurt, but are not dead

If it were Call of Cthulhu, they wouldn't be high level in the first place to survive that fall.

I mean I'm all for realism, but people seem to forget that all this should be relative to your level.

A lower level character is probably closer to an action hero like Rambo or John McClane. A 20th level group, however, makes planetary threats, like a Dhalocar or a Living Apocalypse, into average challenges. So I think it's important to keep scale in mind and not to shoehorn high level beings into situations that ordinarily wouldn't be threatening.


To the people that are responding to my post, no one said get out of your spaceship and fight them on foot. All I said is that the rule is treating your attacks as hazards against creatures at best, which is a form of an attack in itself. It just uses lower numbers, not instant kill X10 numbers.

It doesn't say anything about vehicles because the devs probably didn't have it in mind when writing that block. It's missing tons of stuff it probably should mention.

Look, not for nothing, if you disagree that's fine, but I'm not going into another argument about Paizo's shoddy ruling about starships against ground targets. I've had this argument thousands of times, in and out of game, and I'm not interested in it anymore, so I'm not responding after this. If Paizo doesn't care, why should I, you know? It actually made me resent Starfinder, to some degree, because it's such a common problem that they didn't feel like was necessary to ever address, and that's mind-blowingly bad design.


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Ascalaphus wrote:
The Artificer wrote:
Starship can only hit starship stuff.

That's an exaggeration.

CRB p. 292 wrote:

SHOOTING STARSHIPS

Starship weapons and regular PC-level weapons work on different
scales and aren’t meant to interact with each other. If characters
choose to shoot at a starship with their laser rifles (or cast a spell
on it) while it is on the ground, the GM should treat the starship as
an object (a particularly massive one, at that). At the GM’s discretion,
if starship weapons are ever brought to bear against buildings or
people, they deal Hit Point damage equal to 10 × their listed amount
of damage. However, starship weapons are never precise enough to
target a single individual (or even small group) and can, if the GM
decides, be simulated as deadly hazards instead of weapon attacks.
You can't accurately target PCs or person-sized monsters, but big vehicles and kaiju are fair game.

Creature size is not a consideration. It says you can't target them, but you may instead simulate them as hazards. The only reference to hazards in Starfinder's core book is found in the Vehicle chase section of the book. How you handle it is up to you, afterwards.

I really wish the devs took the time to make this more intuitive. The fact that this question gets asked millions of times out of confusion is a failure on the devs end.

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