I keep getting the versions mixed up, but I still think it's intended to work like I suggested. It makes a lot more sense, in that case, because why do I suddenly stop resisting fire damage (or physical) if I have physical resistance and fire resistance at the same time.
It may just be bad wording. Is that the only thing about it that's written? Were there no examples?
I think it means if you have two forms of resistances that apply to the same damage, take the higher value. Such as, if you have DR10/Bludgeoning and DR5/Slashing, you reduce 10 points of damage from a piercing attack, not 15.
I don't mind lower level mooks remaining threatening to people higher level than they are, but eventually a line has to be made. Can't say I'd enjoy my character that can battle a Godzilla sized creature head on, trade blows, and possibly even overpower it, only for that character to get mobbed and killed by a group of mooks next week or something.
In your first example, they would simply take damage and nothing more. You can describe them as having to jump out of the way, maybe getting knocked over, as to how they took damage.
For your second example, size isn't really a factor if it's impossible or not to dodge out of the way or not. Though they maybe could've bumped the DCs higher to model that it's harder to avoid (like DC = 15 + 1 per size above small, for example). Just because you are "standing" in your square space when a colossal object tumbles down towards you doesn't make it impossible. This is simply a game mechanic and an abstraction, as it's assumed that you're generally always moving. The same reason why a Monk can evade a 20' radius fireball in their square without actually physically moving your character. It's also your prerogative as a GM to bury your player that fails a saving throw against a sizable object that falls on them.
I wouldn't worry too much about realism whether it makes sense to survive in such a circumstance. Most of the content in this game simply couldn't exist if this were a factor to be taken seriously. It helps when you describe it in a believable way, like a giant boulder simply tumbles down a hill rather than falling out of the sky, as an explanation for the survival of the lower level victim. It becomes less important when your mid level party is capable of fighting against building sized earth elementals while trading blows, to even a 20th level party fighting against monsters that can seemingly throw entire mountains (hekatonkhieries).
Seems like they divided the ammunition types from Pathfinder into two different weapons entirely.
Milo v3 wrote:
I'm not sure what weapon you're referring to. I looked and couldn't find anything. Is it a weapon quality?
Good job on these. It sucks that this didn't seem to gather much attention on here and is definitely worth necroing. Seems like you're still updating this, so props for sticking to your guns.
A lot of the statblocks look pretty good, to me. It's a fun and interesting read that I think people should at least take a look at.
A few minor nitpicks/criticism for some of your higher CR monsters from both a narrative and gameplay standpoint. Like, for example, the Plasma Beetle (Starship Troopers) is CR20, despite how several of them are quickly disposed of by a small squad of soldiers with handheld rocket launchers (as opposed to the tactical/advanced missile launchers commonly found on massive military vehicles, to put it into perspective). Monsters with CRs on this level are meant to represent apocalyptic scale threats, not something you can just send a squad to deal with or even nuke from orbit.
I would look into the background/lore of some of the higher CR monsters to have more of a grasp of the scale they're meant to represent, since there are several others that I disagree with like the Xenomorph T-rex (CR24). If you compare that T-rex to the Rendalairn (CR25) based off its purview, you'll quickly see what I mean and maybe have a laugh from it. It's also easier to stat up and run monsters in actual games that use more reasonable statistics if you try to avoid bigger numbers if necessary.
Hawk Kriegsman wrote:
If I had to choose, I probably would have greatly reduced the price of them. Maybe they'll feel less like you're throwing money bags at your enemies :p
Collossal power armor is going to have the same fundamental problem that the Garguantuan (and other large ones) do. It's going to need to be high level because of its relative power and therefore unavailable to most people in most games.
That is to be expected, but there still should be at least one that's colossal sized to fill the empty space.
Idk about the hallway issue, since I'd imagine Paizo would accommodate larger races by making bigger areas in their APs. Maybe not, though.
The weight problem should be a non-issue. It's not any different then using a combat maneuver to reposition the large character, since it's not weight dependent. I don't know if it would be worth actually enforcing this possible weight problem, unless you can somehow make it interesting.
There really isn't much else to this thread, anyway, since the question already got answered. It sort of already is a homebrew topic starting from the third post.
While I don't plan on making a thread about it, since I don't know where I would start, but I definitely will give my 2 cents if someone else does or discusses it here.
True that weapon attacks are like this, whether it's in a starship, vehicle, or powered armor, but I actually don't mind the smaller HP pool. It can make sense that the pilot gets killed before the mech gets destroyed, while this is very difficult to do in other modes of combat.
I mean number 2 is only dissatisfying if you view the entire creature scale for vehicles and such as dissatisfying.
Making them starship scale is nice and dandy and all, and it's probably a lot more simple. However, what people need to understand is that if you want Mechs to participate in ground combat or fight against Kaiju on ground, they need to be creature scale to effectively do so. There's no two ways about it.
Making them starship scale works, if you only plan on using them in space. Otherwise, you'll be doing much more unnecessary work.
Master Han Del of the Web wrote:
The reason that they're the only viable option in some settings is because the Mechs themselves are higher level than any other vehicle and individual that can pilot them. It's really no different than CR1 soldiers piloting tanks and fighter jets; they're not meant to be equals in this circumstance.
If you want them balanced, then you have to keep them around the levels that PCs are currently at, so they won't really outperform anybody else.
Conceptually, mechs and powered armor are the same thing, except it's not called a "mech."
While I don't think Paizo would make Powered Armor require 2 pilots, as that's more of a vehicle thing in this game, I can offer how I think they would do it.
It would be Colossal size, obviously, but it probably would have access to all the abilities that the pilots have while using their highest statistics and modifiers between the 2 pilots, while still acting as a single creature.
The Gleeful Grognard wrote:
There are a few posts that do suggest that firing a bow in this position should be or next to impossible.
It's probably far from the first time where someone thinks I'm being aggressive. I'm not, I'm just used to being rather blunt since I've found it to be the best way to make my point clear.
Maybe I'm just not good with people :p
Imo, ruling that bows can't fire while prone because it's too difficult in real life is a "Guy at the Gym Fallacy."
I understand where some people are coming from, but I don't really think it's necessary to include this in a game were you can go toe to toe with beings 10x your height and trade blows with each other.
I just think it's strange that it's okay for some areas of the game to be completely unrealistic on a comic book level, only to get pulled back into realism when determining if it's possible to fire your bow at a certain position. I also really doubt that anyone would complain if Hawkeye or even Legolas fired their bow while prone.
I looked at the Bulbasaur and evolutions. They seem pretty fine to me. My opinion is that I would reduce the CRs of them all to give more wiggle room for higher level versions (like the game) for the sake of simplicity. Like, just as an example, Bulbasaur, Ivysaur, and Venusaur would be CR 1, 4, and 7, respectively, but that's just me.
Fist of the North Star is a great example of a fictional martial arts character. I remember hearing/reading about how they wanted to include a class that has unarmed combat as the main focus, with Fist of the North Star as inspiration, iirc. Idk what happened to that, lol.
Not really important, but John Wick probably just has improved unarmed strike, since he's much more effective with firearms than unarmed attacks. Unless your suggesting he's a gun-monk :p
Having an advantage against your opponent like this isn't exclusive to welding high tech weaponry, as it can be as simple as having the high ground. You could've referenced other movies with this same scenario without access to advanced weapons, like Conan the Barbarian.
Awarding XP in this instance is really a case by case basis. Do you want to award them with XP because you put them in the position to run over hordes of zombies with a truck? Do you want to give them XP for surviving the odds until they found a higher level weapon?
In any case, your party should be appropriately leveled for your campaign in mind, in whatever way you see fit.
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Which I'm willing to bet the Colossi, by the time it's a toddler, is smart enough to play chess while having a conversation with their companions.
That's one of the things I really like and mildly dislike about the Colossi. They are literally smart enough to be the BBEG mastermind in any campaign they're apart of since their mental scores are so high. Yet, they're still treated like they're straight out of Pacific Rim when they are much more than that.
I think the issue with grenades is that they are too expensive. Otherwise, having an AoE that you can full attack with isn't too bad.
But, I guess while where at it, maybe they could've explained what happens when an AoE weapon crits.
And maybe, as wild and crazy as it sounds, maybe they'll have the gonads to properly explain what happens when a starship fires at a creature on ground and provide an actual example of it xD
I think the game suggests that there's more to being fast than just land speed, as even cats and leopards have a speed of 30 while having high Dex scores. Imo Usain would just have the run feat and maybe something else.
I never realized until now that advanced missiles are not an AoE. I thought it was a typo, but it seems like it's intentional.
I agree, they are very expensive for what they are capable of. I guess they're good for low level NPCs/PCs, like using them while mounted on military vehicles and whatnot. I can't imagine why an equivalent level PC would use it, however.
I don't think so. I don't have the book on hand, so I looked it up on the starjammer website and found this.
Weapons-See Weapon Proficiency in Tactical Rules for more information on how proficiency affects you. When you reach 3rd level in that class, you also gain Weapon Specialization (as per the feat) in those weapons, which allows you to add your class level to your damage rolls with those weapons (see Weapon Specialization for more information). Grenades, missiles, and other consumable weapons never add specialization damage, even when you’re using weapons like a cyberbow or grenade launcher.
This is in the class description section, but if you really need a page number on the CRB, I can provide that later if no one else does.
I like that idea Metaphysician posted, using a form of a damage threshold instead of using an obnoxiously high hardness that most would suggest.
What I wanted to see lately is at least one more monster that can function on both scales, and it made no sense to me that the outer dragons aren't capable of doing this. When I asked why when AA2 came out, other users told me "but if dragons can fight ships, then the PCs will never have a chance on foot." Like, if you're going to tell me that in the same game where PCs are allowed to fight and defeat monsters that can annihilate entire technologically advanced civilizations, implying that starships couldn't even help them, then I'm calling bull on that.
I get that, but you're supposed to assume that the creature is powerful enough to easily deal with a military base, as it's stated that it's designed to create beachheads upon even the most well defended planets. You don't actually run the encounter using hundreds or thousands of enemies, the game can't do this well and isn't meant to.
I can't say that I'm surprised that a 17th level character with their cannon can compare. Considering their weapon is powerful enough to make a mockery of a highly advanced hovertank's main cannon coupled with the expertise of a 17th level character (CR17+ monsters often played godlike roles in Pathfinder), it's not very surprising at all.
Also, you're only comparing a single starship weapon attack to a full attack from a high level character, when the ship easily can have several launchers at once. So the starship is still capable of inflicting more damage. Once you get to the mega missile launchers, it's not even a comparison, anymore.
Here's a comparison you can make, though. Take 2 endbringers and have them use their supergrasers against each other, then compare that damage to their full attack hellfire glare against each other (ignoring fire immunity). They're actually closer in damage, relatively, than you would think.
I know what you're trying to say, but honestly your comparisons are very bizarre. In what situation would you have where there's 500 fifth level characters with holy rifles all shooting this thing at the same time? If you can't viably simulate this encounter even remotely on a battlemat, then it honestly doesn't have much of a place in this discussion. It really feels like you're just abusing game mechanics by using this form of gameplay cheese to reinforce your point. If the auto hit on 20 didn't exist, you couldn't even make this point. The game isn't intended to handle this type of scenario, which is evident even in Pathfinder with the addition of troop subtypes and mass combat rules.
I can make a scenario that's just as ridiculous and meaningless as this one. For example, let's drop thousands of level 1 grenades on the Kyokor until it's dead. It doesn't have evasion or damage reduction, so it's going to die, despite being a 20,000 ton monster with a carapace harder than most metals. However, this same tactic couldn't even scratch a basic, ordinary concrete wall, even though a disintegrate spell utterly atomizes it (which, by the way, even a nuke can't do). Am I going to draw some conclusion by comparing these two? No, because I'm well aware that it's a ridiculous comparison that's just abusing gameplay mechanics.
I also liked that you had to use weapons with the Holy Quality, because you're well aware they aren't powerful enough on their own to make any impact on this discussion. If you want to make some comparisons, not that ground and space weapons need exact symmetry, let's not start with fictional magical holy weapons that the demon is obviously weak to. It just isn't very convincing if that's what you need to do.
See, I can't make any sense of this logic.
Higher level/tier creatures have an easier time dealing damage than lower level/tier creatures, regardless of what weapons are being used. This is how d20 games have always worked.
Just because something can survive repeated hits from something powerful doesn't mean that something weaker can't harm it. For example, if a tier 8 huge starship is failing to damage an enemy ship with its capital weapons, due to lower attack bonuses, doesn't mean a higher tier tiny starship can't damage the same target with its much smaller and weaker weapons. The game doesn't work like this.
The fact that you're comparing 20th level creature scale weapons, the most powerful weapons of their kind in existence, to common knives and pistols is very baffling to me. I would strongly consider rethinking your assumptions.
Looked at the book again, and there's a few things I like about it.
I like the Tripod, a lot. Flavorful and has a vehicle form for others to use, possibly. I think that's a nice touch. Reasonable CR, which is great, since most people's knee jerk reaction to anything that's based off something from a book, movie, comic, cartoon, whatever, is to make it with a special snowflake statblock that's too bloated for what it is. It's just something I personally appreciate, a lot.
I like the Tekenki, since I generally am a big fan of giant monsters, and I really like that the "kaiju" of this game use reasonable CRs, unlike Pathfinder. I still don't like that it has to use a 150' square space. That's just too big for what it is. 30-60' would have been fine.
A criticism I have about the Colossi in general is that they seem to have a number of useless abilities. Demolish Structures should just either ignore hardness all around or maybe 20-30 points. It only works on structures, and given that even a concrete wall has an ungodly amount of health, for some reason, this just isn't particularly useful at all. It should affect more than just structures. Sense The Masses is another rather useless ability. They probably should have noted in the monster's description that it can sense large gathering from some indeterminate distance. It shouldn't actually be an ability.
I like the Space Tardigrade, but of course I'm going to note that a monster like this easily could have had normal creature scale statistics in addition to its starship stats. It probably wouldn't need much room to do this, either. It could have been noted in the monsters description that if you wanted to simulate a Space Tardigrade in atmosphere, use the Colossal Predator statblock in AA2 with its adaptation abilities, starflight, and a projectile with a given amount damage dice and it's bonus. Idk, it just bothers me to no end, as far as this game is concerned, that there are literally space monsters that can't even interact with each other. It's not even like it's because it's too big or anything, considering that there are a number of monsters with more impressive backgrounds and physical stature than this thing has. Whatever, I guess.
I feel like there are far too many races in this book, which is something I thought I'd never complain about. Considering that the monsters for Starfinder are limited to begin with, having a book jammed with tons of races makes me wish they had their own book all together, like an advanced race guide. Seems like they won't be doing that at this rate, anytime soon.
All things considered, the book's alright, for me. Would have been nice to have more GM monsters.
Walls follow completely different rules, and they what you interact with when damaging a massive vehicle while boarding it. A little weird, but it's stated in page 272. This is why the hovercarrier doesn't have thousands of health.
Was it a different team of devs? It wouldn't surprise me, since every alien archive feels like it had completely different writers each time because they don't feel very consistent with each other, imo.
I appreciate the response. I've never had an issue making my own custom monsters, and I actually have a bunch of premade monsters like this that I made over a year ago.
I wanted Paizo to have another take at this type of monster instead of just throwing the concept in the trash. Creatures like the Outer dragons/"space dragons" in AA2 were perfect for having some form of starship statistics (I put space dragons in quotations because they don't feel like real space dragons to me), and it could've encouraged GMs to make more interesting encounters with them. As they are now, they can't even properly interact with other actual space monsters in space without homebrew, and I think that's just embarrassing to write your "space dragons" like this. I brought up the Tzitzimitl because, again, yet another high CR space monster that can't have meaningful interactions in space. Of course not. I feel like if the Endbringer Devil were made in AA2-3, instead of 1, it probably wouldn't have starship statistics either, and would rather lazily imply that it can do stuff in space, instead.
I get it, it's their game and that's their prerogative, but that doesn't mean I have to pretend to like it, either.
Got to go over it again, but some of it is very "meh," to me.
Just sort a pet peeve of mine, but I'm not a fan of how they correlate the monster's actual dimensions on board with its described size. I forget the name of the robot colossi monster, but just because it's 150' long doesn't mean it should take up a 150' square space. A monster's square space is just a representation, not actually meant to simulate the monster's actual size. All it does is make the monster much more difficult to use. This is something I'd expect in a 3rd party product or in the homebrew section.
I still find it annoying that powerful monsters like the Tzitzimitl that are primarily found in space are devoid of having starship statistics, despite having a precedence in the first alien archive. I guess we're still clinging on to this outdated idea that monsters with creature scale statistics can't fight starships in this sci-fi fantasy game, and basically just shapes up to be a less interesting monster with less abilities than its Pathfinder counterpart.
The biggest creature, that I'm aware of, is Oliphant of Jandelay, which stands several thousand feet fight. Another creature I can think of is the Aspodochelone, which is a whale the size of a small island. They're represented by having gigantic square spaces, much larger than 30', but playing something this big is going to require homebrewing.
Malach the Merciless wrote:
If it were Call of Cthulhu, they wouldn't be high level in the first place to survive that fall.
I mean I'm all for realism, but people seem to forget that all this should be relative to your level.
A lower level character is probably closer to an action hero like Rambo or John McClane. A 20th level group, however, makes planetary threats, like a Dhalocar or a Living Apocalypse, into average challenges. So I think it's important to keep scale in mind and not to shoehorn high level beings into situations that ordinarily wouldn't be threatening.
To the people that are responding to my post, no one said get out of your spaceship and fight them on foot. All I said is that the rule is treating your attacks as hazards against creatures at best, which is a form of an attack in itself. It just uses lower numbers, not instant kill X10 numbers.
It doesn't say anything about vehicles because the devs probably didn't have it in mind when writing that block. It's missing tons of stuff it probably should mention.
Look, not for nothing, if you disagree that's fine, but I'm not going into another argument about Paizo's shoddy ruling about starships against ground targets. I've had this argument thousands of times, in and out of game, and I'm not interested in it anymore, so I'm not responding after this. If Paizo doesn't care, why should I, you know? It actually made me resent Starfinder, to some degree, because it's such a common problem that they didn't feel like was necessary to ever address, and that's mind-blowingly bad design.
Creature size is not a consideration. It says you can't target them, but you may instead simulate them as hazards. The only reference to hazards in Starfinder's core book is found in the Vehicle chase section of the book. How you handle it is up to you, afterwards.
I really wish the devs took the time to make this more intuitive. The fact that this question gets asked millions of times out of confusion is a failure on the devs end.