Well if you play with a GM (like me) who aims to keep the party close to the WBL chart then you would be best served to charge them full price. Since as a GM, I will count items the caster made for their party members at their price, while counting items made by and worn by the caster at their cost (assuming they have the appropriate crafting feat) and take that into account when it comes to ensuring there is approximately enough treasure to maintain WBL. So in effect, the caster crafting for their party members is never going to get them or their party ahead on WBL. Though doing so only hurts the caster in the sense that it delays their own access to the higher effective WBL taking crafting feats allows.I've heard this before, but I am not sure how this works in practice. Do you label all the items with who they go to? If you have 2 wizards in the party, and one crafts for the other at no cost, how are you going to "count" the crafter's WBL differently? They both want the same loot and if they split it evenly how do you fix that?I count the items on the sheet. So if the Fighter has a Cloak of Protection +5 that they are wearing it is counted at full value. And then I add the value of all the rest of the gear they wear (also at full value).
But for caster with Craft Wondrous Item crafted a Cloak of Protection +5 and used it themselves it would be counted at half price. Thus if the caster is wearing more of their own stuff that they can craft, I will need to add more items to keep the party on WBL. If the opposite is true and the Wizard crafted a +5 Cloak for the Fighter at cost for the Fighter to wear, I will reduce WBL.
Actually, I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. How is paying full value for an item worse than getting a 25% discount, with your party member benefiting from their efforts?
Example with made up numbers:
Wizard has 20,000 GP in crafted gear with a target WBL of...
Just tell your party members this, and I assure you, they'll stop.
Also, I'm still not entirely sure how taking partial advantage of the feat is worse than ignoring the feat altogether. It's not like the wizard is charging himself to make items for his own use. And if you calculate based off of full market price, a 75% discount is still better than a 0% one.
Just tell your party members this, and I assure you, they'll stop.
Also, I'm still not entirely sure how taking partial advantage of the feat is worse than ignoring the feat altogether. It's not like the wizard is charging himself to make items for his own use. And if you calculate based off of full market price, a 75% discount is still better than a 0% one.
I'm the GM?
But that's how the rules actually work and thus what I go by.
I have never been in a game where -anyone- cared about the WBL rules.
It is up to the DM to send appropriate challenges at the party, based on party makeup, items, environment, and situation.
It's meant to be a story. Not some itemized accounting game.
Except being cognizant of WBL is precisely a good aid to crafting appropriate challenges for the party.
Because WBL is part and parcel of the CR system assumptions. If you surpass WBL?Fine, no problem: but doing so just means enemy CR should be higher than normal to compensate and have equal challenge.
Conflating the issue with interpersonal negotiations and relations between PCs is besides the point.
Whatever the actual money that changes hands is irrelevant to the actual wealth wielded by each PC and the party. Go ahead and charge them zero profit, or a smaller profit, if you so wish. Doesn't matter if they gain wealth by this route of "ally crafting it for them at-cost" or by deciding to clear-cut and sell a mahogany forest they find. At the end of the day, the other PCs' wealth will be higher than WBL, and they don't possess a Feat to justify it.
So that means your assumptions about CR appropriateness will need to be adjusted to actual power level of the PCs. If PCs want to pursue power-by-gear above assumption of WBL, then they are welcome to take that approach, although they will also face the consequences when by compensation you send higher CR threats to face them. On the flip side to extra-wealth-by-allied-crafter or by fortuitious-monetization-of-environment (mahogany forest scenario), there also exist wealth destruction scenarios, whether destruction, loss, or theft. Such elements are perfectly legitimate elements in dramatic story-telling, and when they coincide with mechanical balancing ala WBL, all the better. So it is quite possible to have a period of surpassed WBL, where you might adjust CR to compensate, and then adjust WBL by external means (which if results in below WBL standard, should likewise influence adjustment of CR in opposite direction).
And the same applies for NPCs. Even if they were using the same system themselves 100% to the hilt, players would not appreciate BBEG and all his minions benefitting from BBEG's crafting Feat to have 2x normal gear (and somehow treat it as of exactly the same CR). On the flip side, one can embrace that and utilize it in parallel with story-telling and mechanical balancing. E.g. BBEG (or Minions) gains item of great power -> that leads to BBEG expanding power in world, ultimately gaining levels to match actual wealth -> PCs eventually can overcome that level of power and defeat BBEG before his plans go further.
One factor that has to be considered for item crafting is the value of down time. If the character for whom the item is being made is doing something to improve himself during downtime, the crafter should be given more consideration than if the rest of the party does nothing that matters during that time. In the latter case, the crafter might decide to waive any extra money from the other party members on the grounds that they are doing various menial tasks for him during this downtime.
Is this assuming spherical casters in a vacuum?
Ah, yes, cows.
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I count the items on the sheet. So if the Fighter has a Cloak of Protection +5 that they are wearing it is counted at full value. And then I add the value of all the rest of the gear they wear (also at full value).
But for caster with Craft Wondrous Item crafted a Cloak of Protection +5 and used it themselves it would be counted at half price. Thus if the caster is wearing more of their own stuff that they can craft, I will need to add more items to keep the party on WBL. If the opposite is true and the Wizard crafted a +5 Cloak for the Fighter at cost for the Fighter to wear, I will reduce WBL.
Ok, so making up some numbers here, you have Carl the crafter, a wizard 3, and Sam the summoner, also a wizard 3. They are supposed to have 3,000 gp.
Carl crafts some pearls of power and a headband for himself and his buddy and charges Sam 50% market value. Cause Carl is a cool guy like that.
So Carl's Wealth is:
Pearl : 500 gp
Headband: 2000 gp
total = 2500 gp
Sam's wealth is:
Pearl : 1000 gp
Headband: 4000 gp
total = 5000 gp
Carl is under WBL and Sam is above, by your rules. What possible item could you put in a treasure to even this out? If you put another pair of pearls, Carl and Sam will take one each, and Carl will still be 2500 gp "behind." Do you label treasure with who gets it? Or what?
What if Sam and Carl get wise to how fate works and Carl writes 2 pearls on his character sheet but will "loan" them out to Sam at the beginning of every day? Will you drop 500gp of extra treasure then?
In my opinion, it seems justifiable, especially if that character would honestly value gold over their adventuring companions having more stuff to avoid dying with - but it seems justifiable from a roleplaying perspective, specifically.
From a balance perspective, I think it's a minor enough nitpick unless everyone else in the game is being completely uncooperative teamwork-wise. If Wizard B is benefiting from the cleric's healing and the bard's buffs and the paladin's keeping him alive, then he shouldn't be insisting that he gets paid for his contributions to the team unless the whole party is handling teamwork that way. If Wizard A is the only one not helping anyone else, Wizard A is the problem. And if you're going to say "psssh whatever, I'm a wizard, I can solo the whole campaign if I want so why do I care about healing or some meatshields when I've got Planar Ally for that", then prooooobably you taking some crafting feats and using them for everyone else is actively good for game balance.
Maybe it's just how it works in my group, but I usually see crafting feats being taken by the PCs who can most easily spare the feats, and are generally a bit ahead of the power curve anyway. And besides, the crafter simply prioritizing their own swag in terms of time spent is already an advantage.
I count the items on the sheet. So if the Fighter has a Cloak of Protection +5 that they are wearing it is counted at full value. And then I add the value of all the rest of the gear they wear (also at full value).
But for caster with Craft Wondrous Item crafted a Cloak of Protection +5 and used it themselves it would be counted at half price. Thus if the caster is wearing more of their own stuff that they can craft, I will need to add more items to keep the party on WBL. If the opposite is true and the Wizard crafted a +5 Cloak for the Fighter at cost for the Fighter to wear, I will reduce WBL.
Ok, so making up some numbers here, you have Carl the crafter, a wizard 3, and Sam the summoner, also a wizard 3. They are supposed to have 3,000 gp.
Carl crafts some pearls of power and a headband for himself and his buddy and charges Sam 50% market value. Cause Carl is a cool guy like that.
So Carl's Wealth is:
Pearl : 500 gp
Headband: 2000 gptotal = 2500 gp
Sam's wealth is:
Pearl : 1000 gp
Headband: 4000 gptotal = 5000 gp
Carl is under WBL and Sam is above, by your rules. What possible item could you put in a treasure to even this out? If you put another pair of pearls, Carl and Sam will take one each, and Carl will still be 2500 gp "behind." Do you label treasure with who gets it? Or what?
What if Sam and Carl get wise to how fate works and Carl writes 2 pearls on his character sheet but will "loan" them out to Sam at the beginning of every day? Will you drop 500gp of extra treasure then?
No there will just be less total treasure than there could have been as shown in my example (10,000~ GP worth in my example). And if Sam is the one using the pearls they would obviously count against Sam's WBL. If Carl bought them so that Sam could cast 2 spells on him, then they would count against Carl's WBL. And if all the players allow wealth to accumulate on one character, then the other characters just have to suffer.
Even better take that feat/trait (I forget which) that lowers the cost to create specific magic item types by 5% then just charge the standard 1/2 cost. Then you're making money and the other party members are none the wiser.
I did this as a Gnome Summoner... but I used the extra gold to add little jokes to the items to "liven up" the party.
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The o.p.'s list and justifications notwithstanding, to introduce monetization into a group whose very lives depend on adding their skills, powers, spells, etc. is a dreadful idea. As others have noted, it would inspire each individual to want to charge for their particular service.
The Bard going, "Hey! I just helped you with my Lingering Performance. My accountant/lawyer says you me 39.32 gold for that."
I shudder to think what bills the Cleric would draw up- particularly if drafted under duress.
It would be in the enlightened self-interest of the item creator to want to have the toughest, well-equipped gang surround him.
A nation of shopkeepers is unappealing enough, but an adventuring party of shopkeepers?
Many of the counter-arguments compare a "less-than-expected-discount" to a "charge", which is logically wrong.
It's a charge for your time.
Within the game world, NPC crafters typically charge 500gp a day for their time. (So if you buy a Cloak of Resistance +1 for 1000gp, you're paying 500gp for the raw materials, and 500gp for a day of work.)
If you're crafting the same item for a friend in exchange for 60% of the item value, you're charging 500gp for materials and 100gp for labor. That's one fifth of the going market rate for labor.
Whether that's 'fair' or not is hard to judge. Some people have seen it done for free so much that they think of it as normal. From that viewpoint, you're charging 100gp for something that 'ought' to be free. But to look at it another way, in a world where no other crafter charges less than 500gp a day, an 80% discount on labor is pretty good.
The situation is further complicated depending on whether you're seeing it from the character viewpoint or the player viewpoint. "I spent nine days making you a new sword while you were hanging out in the tavern!" "Nine days of game time. It was only a minute of table time. What's the big deal?"
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As others have noted, it would inspire each individual to want to charge for their particular service.
It probably wouldn't, but it's an interesting thought experiment:
"Hey, I noticed you keep casting Fireball on our enemies."
"You're welcome."
"Couldn't you cast Haste first?"
"I like exploding our enemies."
"But we're a party with lots of martials. If you cast Haste, that would boost our DPR a lot more than the damage output of your Fireballs."
"Hmm... Only if you guys give me 100gp each time I do it."
"What? Why should we?"
"I'll be giving up actions and spell slots that I could be using to explode things. You all get boosted AC, attack rolls, reflexes, speed, and an extra attack every round - stuff I don't need. How much would you have to spend on gear to get all that? You're free to spend 375gp on a scroll of Haste and UMD it if you don't like my terms."
I think the problem that keeps occurring is that even though a single player makes and plays a single character the game assume a party. (generally a party of 4) so some options and benefits don't seem great in comparison for a single character but if you figure in the other 3 the item creation feats are giving you a multiplicative effect per party member.
I would guess that the system assumes you are going to craft items for party members at a cheaper rate. I do see what you mean that you are kind of offering your feat slots for the benefit of other players(and yourself). but at the same time that means any buff spells bard ability or anything that contributes to the group is doing the same. Obviously they all have value in fact the bigger the group the more value they provide. It doesn't make them sub par options in fact it could very well make them better options.
I would guess that the system assumes you are going to craft items for party members at a cheaper rate.
Actually, the rules say:
Game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn't just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
The system appears to think that crafters should never use their abilities to help the rest of the group.
that is not how I read it. it seems that having even 50% more loot as a result of the crafting system is acceptable. now if your letting the group have double the items that would be problematic. but anything to an extreme is problematic. your taking it to far at that point.
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I am all for the Fighter being handsomely paid by the Wizard for even taking the time (not to mention the feats) to defend him while he could be gloriously slaughtering enemies on his own :-)
Of course, the Bard shall charge all attacking characters for the boost he gives them.
In a full Abadaran or Asmodean party, it might even be adequate roleplaying :-))
In the end, the player chooses to play a crafter, just as some choose to play a healing Cleric.
It's all about gaming group's dynamics actually, so there is no right way to do this
that is not how I read it. it seems that having even 50% more loot as a result of the crafting system is acceptable.
It specifically says you "allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by 25%". Not allowing the entire party to exceed WBL by 25%.
Actually, the next sentence says:If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment. Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.
So you can craft for the rest of the party, but instead of charging 60% or 50% of the item price, you should charge 0%, and the recipient of the item should contribute nothing.
Harsh.
Its a minor wording thing I don't think it equates to an over arching design strategy but Its not something I care enough about to argue over. you do it how you want. My thought was just that buffing your party does help you too. of course they pay for materials but your helping yourself by helping them. Anyways good luck with greedy crafter route.
I find the idea intriguing and as someone else pointed out here, the other party members may be ok with a 25% discount to the full price and a guaranteed availability of the item they want. (Our group tends to randomly generate what's available from the ye-olde magic shoppes). Leaving the crafter wizard with a WBL benefit which he can use to increase his own power for the good of the party, or for purely selfish reasons. (Add roleplaying here)
Then again, it all depends on what you want out of it as a player. While most players enjoy being effective and "winning", each player also defines what winning is to them and what their character's motives are.
(As a contrast there are entire builds focused only on making your party members great, e.g. the Very Helpful Halfling) Apologies for the shameless self-promotion of the thread :)
In my book the wizard charging something between cost price and marked price is ok. Perhaps 75% is a good benchmark?
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As others have noted, it would inspire each individual to want to charge for their particular service.It probably wouldn't, but it's an interesting thought experiment:
"Hey, I noticed you keep casting Fireball on our enemies."
"You're welcome."
"Couldn't you cast Haste first?"
"I like exploding our enemies."
"But we're a party with lots of martials. If you cast Haste, that would boost our DPR a lot more than the damage output of your Fireballs."
"Hmm... Only if you guys give me 100gp each time I do it."
"What? Why should we?"
"I'll be giving up actions and spell slots that I could be using to explode things. You all get boosted AC, attack rolls, reflexes, speed, and an extra attack every round - stuff I don't need. How much would you have to spend on gear to get all that? You're free to spend 375gp on a scroll of Haste and UMD it if you don't like my terms."
In fact I don't see why the Wizard should waste his actions to cast Haste if, in the end, a well placed Fireball cast from an opimized blaster Wizard is more effective. Haste takes 1 round to be effective, since generally melee characters need to approach the enemies before full attacking. A Fireball on round 1, when enemies are not yet scattered around, can be much more beneficial. And THIS is the core of the discussion: what is better for the party often is not trivial. As I've already exhaustively said, maybe 25% discount on the party's equipment and more resources for the crafter may actually be better for the entire party than 50% discount and a character left behind. This is pure mathematics. I don't know how to solve this optimisation problem, and neither do you, but at least I'm trying. What are you suggesting instead? Retaliation IN and OUT of game. That's what. The rant about being paid for the casting or whatever (which btw are already "paid" by the share of the loot) is just a blatant exaggeration I'm going to ignore from now on. I don't see why, in fact, the Wizard SHOULD cast Haste only because he's asked to do so. On the other hand, putting a price tag on the casting is idiotic, but nonetheless the Fighter is NOT forced to pay. How is this correlated to a crafter being FORCED to craft half price?
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How this question is asked and answered speaks volumes on the party dynamic.
Otherwise, there is no "right" answer.
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that is not how I read it. it seems that having even 50% more loot as a result of the crafting system is acceptable.It specifically says you "allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by 25%". Not allowing the entire party to exceed WBL by 25%.
Actually, the next sentence says:
If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment. Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.So you can craft for the rest of the party, but instead of charging 60% or 50% of the item price, you should charge 0%, and the recipient of the item should contribute nothing.
Harsh.
50%, not 0%. It's at-cost, but you get less of the half-price equipment for yourself, pushing you less far over WBL. (Which makes sense- it's the same total value of crafted goods.)
So the book recommends personal crafting, and says freely crafting for the group is even better.
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You're basically asking, "What is the cash value of a feat?"
That's going to change as you level up. Look at the feat you're currently giving up for the crafting feat. How much cash would you pay for an item that gave you that feat? Some feats have a fairly quantifiable cash value - the Dodge feat, for example, is +1 AC, so you could compare it to the price of an Ioun stone that does the same. Other feats seem almost priceless.
But it doesn't seem worth measuring. The disparity between two characters, where one has taken a crafting feat and is using it to benefit the other, is small compared to other forms of disparity.
I played through a campaign as a cleric. I took Craft Wondrous Item and crafted for the other characters without charging them extra. I made it my number one priority to keep everyone alive. I spent my own money on scrolls to take care of any nasty conditions that might afflict them. The question of whether my character fell behind theirs was meaningless, because I rarely did anything in combat beyond buffing and healing them. Towards the end of the campaign they pooled their money and bought me an expensive Metamagic Rod of Quicken Spell. Did I come out ahead? Who knows? I wasn't keeping count.
127 posts and I didn't see anyone mention this bit...
"You can take advantage of the item creation rules to hand-craft most or all of your magic items. Because you've spent gp equal to only half the price of these items, you could end up with more gear than what the Character Wealth by Level table suggests for you. This is especially the case if you're a new character starting above 1st level or one with the versatile Craft Wondrous Item feat. With these advantages, you can carefully craft optimized gear rather than acquiring GM-selected gear over the course of a campaign. For example, a newly created 4th-level character should have about 6,000 gp worth of gear, but you can craft up to 12,000 gp worth of gear with that much gold, all of it taking place before the character enters the campaign, making the time-cost of crafting irrelevant.
Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of negating the main benefit of crafting magic items—in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn't just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment. Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.
Example: The Character Wealth By Level table states that an 8th-level character...
Say you are running an AP and the wizard is doubling everyone's wealth-by-level. How to you reduce loot? Do you rework everything? What if most loot comes from NPC equipment? Does that mean that crafting feats also make enemy NPCs weaker? Or are quest rewards suddenly lower?
And tell me seriously, is there any character on which you wouldn't take a feat that said "you gain 25% more wealth!"
If you want to follow this rule, just have each crafting feat give you a pool of GP equal to X% of WBL to craft with. Done. No working for free and everyone knows what the feat does. Though its not very simulationist.
So far as the hypothetical Construct Master goes: I stand by it being 100% inappropriate for them to charge their party members for Wondrous Items, beyond the cost of crafting--but by precisely the same token, the party members should be willing to contribute to the creation of constructs that will defend or provide utility to the entire party., just as it also makes sense for them to kick in a little extra collectively to help get the fighter that souped-up weapon that much sooner.
Say you are running an AP and the wizard is doubling everyone's wealth-by-level. How to you reduce loot? Do you rework everything? What if most loot comes from NPC equipment? Does that mean that crafting feats also make enemy NPCs weaker? Or are quest rewards suddenly lower?
And tell me seriously, is there any character on which you wouldn't take a feat that said "you gain 25% more wealth!"
If you want to follow this rule, just have each crafting feat give you a pool of GP equal to X% of WBL to craft with. Done. No working for free and everyone knows what the feat does. Though its not very simulationist.
I do run APs and I do have characters with item creation feats.
Starting around 6th or 7th level time constraints start acting as the limiting factor on item creation. By 10th level, it can take weeks, or even a month or more, to craft a single item. That is more time than it typically takes in-game to run through an entire book. The characters with item creation feats are too busy agonizing over what they can craft with their own limited time to worry about crafting for other party members.
At high level, put them in a fast-time pocket dimension. Instantaneous item creation, just insert gold.
Feel free to charge your party members whatever price you think you can squeeze from them for having the exact item they need in the middle of combat.
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...127 posts and I didn't see anyone mention this bit...
"You can take advantage of the item creation rules to hand-craft most or all of your magic items. Because you've spent gp equal to only half the price of these items, you could end up with more gear than what the Character Wealth by Level table suggests for you. This is especially the case if you're a new character starting above 1st level or one with the versatile Craft Wondrous Item feat. With these advantages, you can carefully craft optimized gear rather than acquiring GM-selected gear over the course of a campaign. For example, a newly created 4th-level character should have about 6,000 gp worth of gear, but you can craft up to 12,000 gp worth of gear with that much gold, all of it taking place before the character enters the campaign, making the time-cost of crafting irrelevant.
Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of negating the main benefit of crafting magic items—in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn't just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment. Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.
Example: The Character Wealth By Level table states that
Also, it had been already mentioned multiple times.
This is how I read it:3 people + crafter with multiple item creation feats. Average WBL = 10k. Total WBL = 40k. The crafter gets an extra 50% effective WBL, so the total WBL goes up to 45k. These extra 5k can be distributed as the crafter (THE CRAFTER) wishes.
Ironically, problems arise when items are crafted at a discounted price: the TWF-Fighter wants a +2 sword (8k) and a +1 whatever (2k), gives 5k to the Wizard, and receives items worth 10k. In theory, despite having other 5k extra to spend, he cannot get any more resources, since he has reached his effective WBL, and any increased wealth should come out of the Wizard's extra 5k. Repeat this for all the other party members and you can see the chaos.
How to easily solve this? Simple, make everyone pay full price. They are free to buy from the merchant if they want and can, otherwise there's the crafter who's always available. In this way they are not going to break the WBL limit and the Wizard gets his extra effective 50% to spend as he wants: he can share it with the party or not.
I think I may have said it already, but I'll add that it's too easy to get riled up over this topic. Remember, this is purely theoretical stuff. I'm willing to bet a few of the people saying "I think a small charge for my services would be fair" are ACTUALLY more than willing to make gear for the other players at their gaming tables without charging them extra, or at least not that much extra.
But again, we're talking theory. Just don't get so passionate about your opinions that we start making this conversation an argument.
I'll go ahead and throw in a few scenarios that should prompt some thought. Note, however, these are non-standard D&D campaigns:
SCENARIO 1: The Party of Backstabbers
I've been at exactly ONE table like this, but I never liked it. There are tables where there's pretty much no-holds barred and backstabbing each other is fair game. In fact, it's expected. If you don't backstab the other players within the first couple weeks you're either doing it wrong or you're just not worth playing with.
In that context, the role of item crafter becomes... Um, risky. At once, you need to show that you're useful to them to dissuade being murdered; perhaps some general neutrality in the backstabbery with only opportune strikes makes sense. But at the same time, since you're literally playing at a table of backstabbers, you need to make SOME profit off what you're doing so as to make enough of a profit to buy gear for yourself to give you an edge over the others. This seems like the perfect opportunity to charge, say, 75% market price or 80% market price for the items you craft.
SCENARIO 2: Welcome to the Arena!
Okay. In this campaign you're literally gladiators. Everyone lives or dies with the other. But for some reason you have the opportunity to craft gear, and you get spending money to upgrade your gear. That's cool.
In this situation, doesn't it make a lot of sense to only charge that 50%? You need your allies at full fighting power; this is the one time when you should be 100% dedicated to working together as a team. And you don't want your allies to think you're holding out on them, because you want them to be willing to put themselves between you and the enemy...
SCENARIO 3: Kingdom-based Stuff
Okay, now you're playing a game where you all have a kingdom, and the kingdom generates wealth that your party shares equally. Now, in their "downtime" everyone is really doing things to help the kingdom: someone's running around being a general and fighting monsters in the woods, another is dealing with the petty laws and such, blah blah blah... You have a generally cush job, but you're also the team's item crafter.
Okay, so as the kingdom item crafter, should you charge your normal 10% fee for your services? Everyone is dedicating their time and energy to the kingdom - if you're making stuff from the resources generated by the kingdom for the whole party to use, should you be taking some of the extra gold for yourself? Then again, there's not a "master artisan" job listed under the kingdom jobs, so maybe everyone else is spending their free time goofing off. Or maybe the general is out there fighting bandits, and the queen is acting as a diplomat...
MY PERSONAL CONCLUSION:
I think this topic is super situational and depends on the dynamic of the players and the party. I know I personally have mixed feelings on the issue - I can see the merits of both arguments. But it seems like it's going to depend a lot on the kind of campaign being played.
127 posts and I didn't see anyone mention this bit...
"You can take advantage of the item creation rules to hand-craft most or all of your magic items. Because you've spent gp equal to only half the price of these items, you could end up with more gear than what the Character Wealth by Level table suggests for you. This is especially the case if you're a new character starting above 1st level or one with the versatile Craft Wondrous Item feat. With these advantages, you can carefully craft optimized gear rather than acquiring GM-selected gear over the course of a campaign. For example, a newly created 4th-level character should have about 6,000 gp worth of gear, but you can craft up to 12,000 gp worth of gear with that much gold, all of it taking place before the character enters the campaign, making the time-cost of crafting irrelevant.
Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of negating the main benefit of crafting magic items—in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn't just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment. Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.
Example: The Character Wealth By Level table states that an 8th-level character...
The balancing factor is that generally you don't have infinite downtime in a campaign. Crafting items takes time, and you have to prioritize what you're going to craft.
Prestige costs could replace time requirements.
And I assume that crafting for fellow PCs is prohibited? Not that there is much incentive to do that given that you might never see the players you craft for again.
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One assumption being made here is that both the crafter and the beneficiary of the crafting are PCs who intend to stick together indefinitely. But what if one of them is an NPC, either a cohort or a more temporary ally? Then the case for crafting at cost is much weaker -- either the crafter as an NPC would decide that making stuff at cost is not worth his time, or an NPC ally could at the GM's whim walk away with a bunch of magic items that he received at half price.
And my group is highly resistant to the idea of treating PCs differently from otherwise identical seeming NPCs.
Say you are running an AP and the wizard is doubling everyone's wealth-by-level. How to you reduce loot? Do you rework everything? What if most loot comes from NPC equipment? Does that mean that crafting feats also make enemy NPCs weaker? Or are quest rewards suddenly lower?
And tell me seriously, is there any character on which you wouldn't take a feat that said "you gain 25% more wealth!"
If you want to follow this rule, just have each crafting feat give you a pool of GP equal to X% of WBL to craft with. Done. No working for free and everyone knows what the feat does. Though its not very simulationist.
I do run APs and I do have characters with item creation feats.
Starting around 6th or 7th level time constraints start acting as the limiting factor on item creation. By 10th level, it can take weeks, or even a month or more, to craft a single item. That is more time than it typically takes in-game to run through an entire book. The characters with item creation feats are too busy agonizing over what they can craft with their own limited time to worry about crafting for other party members.
** spoiler omitted **
Munchkins v2.0: Don't take any item creation feats, at level 7 take the leadership feat (when available) have a crafter cohort, profit. :P
The balancing factor is that generally you don't have infinite downtime in a campaign. Crafting items takes time, and you have to prioritize what you're going to craft.
In theory, yes. In Kingmaker, no :)
If you are playing an AP, it is possible that you will have time pressure from level 1 to 20. But in many custom campaigns it is quite likely that you will have time between one adventure and the next. Especially in more sand-box style campaigns.
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Munchkins v2.0: Don't take any item creation feats, at level 7 take the leadership feat (when available) have a crafter cohort, profit. :PSay you are running an AP and the wizard is doubling everyone's wealth-by-level. How to you reduce loot? Do you rework everything? What if most loot comes from NPC equipment? Does that mean that crafting feats also make enemy NPCs weaker? Or are quest rewards suddenly lower?
And tell me seriously, is there any character on which you wouldn't take a feat that said "you gain 25% more wealth!"
If you want to follow this rule, just have each crafting feat give you a pool of GP equal to X% of WBL to craft with. Done. No working for free and everyone knows what the feat does. Though its not very simulationist.
I do run APs and I do have characters with item creation feats.
Starting around 6th or 7th level time constraints start acting as the limiting factor on item creation. By 10th level, it can take weeks, or even a month or more, to craft a single item. That is more time than it typically takes in-game to run through an entire book. The characters with item creation feats are too busy agonizing over what they can craft with their own limited time to worry about crafting for other party members.
** spoiler omitted **
That doesn't really change things if downtime is on the premium. If your campaign is fast-paced, even your cohorts only have limited time.
That doesn't really change things if downtime is on the premium. If your campaign is fast-paced, even your cohorts only have limited time.Munchkins v2.0: Don't take any item creation feats, at level 7 take the leadership feat (when available) have a crafter cohort, profit. :PSay you are running an AP and the wizard is doubling everyone's wealth-by-level. How to you reduce loot? Do you rework everything? What if most loot comes from NPC equipment? Does that mean that crafting feats also make enemy NPCs weaker? Or are quest rewards suddenly lower?
And tell me seriously, is there any character on which you wouldn't take a feat that said "you gain 25% more wealth!"
If you want to follow this rule, just have each crafting feat give you a pool of GP equal to X% of WBL to craft with. Done. No working for free and everyone knows what the feat does. Though its not very simulationist.
I do run APs and I do have characters with item creation feats.
Starting around 6th or 7th level time constraints start acting as the limiting factor on item creation. By 10th level, it can take weeks, or even a month or more, to craft a single item. That is more time than it typically takes in-game to run through an entire book. The characters with item creation feats are too busy agonizing over what they can craft with their own limited time to worry about crafting for other party members.
** spoiler omitted **
In a way it does show the power of item creation feats in that they can perhaps indirectly shape the flow of a homebrew campaign and be stronger in even premade adventures with lengthy downtime.
First, Just as I would balk at a party member charging the party full retail price, and have said so, I would also not expect him to enchant for Cost, except in the cases of party owned support, like wands of CLW. Since this is now the consensus, I really didn't feel the need to chip in again. This issue has come up at our tables and was dealt with.
I just want to comment on using the WBL arguments from Campaign, et al. Since the main assumption of WBL and CR is that the GM is incompetent to decide things for the games he is running, and there are so many flaws in how valuation of items and challenge ratings are calculated, I just can't take those arguments as anything but ridiculous.
I would assume you play a crafter, because the idea is fun to you, so kicking you a little extra cash so you can make more toys just adds to the fun of it all. If you are only about getting over on the party, you won't be around for that long. We have been there, done that, and are over it.
We have a crafter wizard in our Kingmaker Campaign. No one expected items at cost.
We don't pay full price either. The right cost totally depends on the people concerned and their table.
The idea that you can mathematically show one cost is "best" is not one I agree with. This is a game not a science.
Oh, nice, neoliberalism meets pathfinder.
Now kill me please.
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We have a crafter wizard in our Kingmaker Campaign. No one expected items at cost.
We don't pay full price either. The right cost totally depends on the people concerned and their table.
The idea that you can mathematically show one cost is "best" is not one I agree with. This is a game not a science.
'course you can. You are just having fun wrong.
:)
That doesn't really change things if downtime is on the premium. If your campaign is fast-paced, even your cohorts only have limited time.Munchkins v2.0: Don't take any item creation feats, at level 7 take the leadership feat (when available) have a crafter cohort, profit. :PSay you are running an AP and the wizard is doubling everyone's wealth-by-level. How to you reduce loot? Do you rework everything? What if most loot comes from NPC equipment? Does that mean that crafting feats also make enemy NPCs weaker? Or are quest rewards suddenly lower?
And tell me seriously, is there any character on which you wouldn't take a feat that said "you gain 25% more wealth!"
If you want to follow this rule, just have each crafting feat give you a pool of GP equal to X% of WBL to craft with. Done. No working for free and everyone knows what the feat does. Though its not very simulationist.
I do run APs and I do have characters with item creation feats.
Starting around 6th or 7th level time constraints start acting as the limiting factor on item creation. By 10th level, it can take weeks, or even a month or more, to craft a single item. That is more time than it typically takes in-game to run through an entire book. The characters with item creation feats are too busy agonizing over what they can craft with their own limited time to worry about crafting for other party members.
** spoiler omitted **
Simulcrums and cohorts get 8 hour crafting days while your off adventuring and, with numbers, can work on many items simultaneously.