paizo.com Recent Posts in Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?paizo.com Recent Posts in Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?2017-03-06T04:56:20Z2017-03-06T04:56:20ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?Chris Lambertzhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5322017-03-07T20:36:04Z2017-03-07T02:03:33Z<p><span class=messageboard-ooc>Removed a number of abusive posts and locking. This discussion has gotten past the point of usefulness, and the rhetoric being used by some is really against the spirit of our Advice subforum.</span></p>Removed a number of abusive posts and locking. This discussion has gotten past the point of usefulness, and the rhetoric being used by some is really against the spirit of our Advice subforum.Chris Lambertz2017-03-07T02:03:33ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?_Ozy_https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5312017-03-06T23:54:36Z2017-03-06T23:54:36Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">_Ozy_ wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Balkoth wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote>There's a following section that addresses item creation for profit as well - with a similar "exceed by 25%" guideline. </blockquote><p>And which features this gem:
<p>"You might want to use an appropriate business to sell crafted items for more than half price, but the downtime system already accounts for using a building to generate money, as well as spending personal time helping run the business (see Run a Business). A typical magic shop earns about 3 gp per day, or perhaps 4—5 gp per day if a skilled owner PC directly participates in running the business. Because magic items are very expensive (with the most common potions costing 50 gp or more, far higher than what most commoners can afford), this income represents many days where the business sells nothing, followed by selling one or two high-priced items, which averages out to a few gp of profit per day. In other words, just because you can craft one +1 longsword each day doesn't mean you're likely to sell one each day in your shop."</p>
<p>In other words, earning 4-5 gold per day is on the high end of running a magic shop. That's your opportunity cost per day. </blockquote><p>Only if you're not also using that business to accumulate Magic capital, which you then use to craft at 1/4 and sell for 1/2.
<p>Then your opportunity cost is ~500gp per day. </blockquote><p>Did you read the quoted bit: "income represents many days where the business sells nothing, followed by selling one or two high-priced items, which averages out to a few gp of profit per day."
<p>Turning your work into Magic capital doesn't change that. It lets you craft more stuff, but doesn't generate customers to buy it from you. </p>
<p>Now, you can use that Magic Capital to craft stuff for your personal use - or to sell to other PCs, but that falls under the Adjusting WBL guidelines. </blockquote><p>Did you read the part where that was about trying to sell items at <b>full value</b> (or at least more than half price)? If you can sell loot for 1/2 value with no problems, then you can sell crafted value for 1/2 value with no problems.
<p>Unless you mean to tell me that the buyer somehow will buy a looted +1 sword for 1k, but not a crafted +1 sword?</p>thejeff wrote:_Ozy_ wrote: Balkoth wrote: thejeff wrote:There's a following section that addresses item creation for profit as well - with a similar "exceed by 25%" guideline.
And which features this gem: "You might want to use an appropriate business to sell crafted items for more than half price, but the downtime system already accounts for using a building to generate money, as well as spending personal time helping run the business (see Run a Business). A typical magic shop earns about 3..._Ozy_2017-03-06T23:54:36ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?dwayne germainehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5302017-03-06T23:32:28Z2017-03-06T23:32:28Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">_Ozy_ wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">dwayne germaine wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">_Ozy_ wrote:</div><blockquote><p> if the Fighter is jealous of the supposed extra loot the Wizard is getting, he can take a crafting feat of his own to cash in on the lucrative business. Nobody is stopping him.
</p>
</blockquote><p>No no, He just goes off adventuring with the other non-crafters while the crafters work on their stuff. It's the only solution he has to the question of what to do to try to keep up in wealth with the crafter.
<p>So those who don't craft spend their time playing while the crafter tries to get richer than the other people in the party by making money off of them.</p>
<p>Of course this just makes everyone not want to take crafting feats because it interferes with playing. </blockquote><p>Nope. At that point everyone gets leadership so they get their own loyal wizard crafter. Then everyone goes off and plays while all of their followers stay home and craft.
<p>win - win - win for everyone•!</p>
<p>•GMs not included </blockquote><p>That's a totally acceptable solution to me_Ozy_ wrote:dwayne germaine wrote: _Ozy_ wrote:if the Fighter is jealous of the supposed extra loot the Wizard is getting, he can take a crafting feat of his own to cash in on the lucrative business. Nobody is stopping him.
No no, He just goes off adventuring with the other non-crafters while the crafters work on their stuff. It's the only solution he has to the question of what to do to try to keep up in wealth with the crafter. So those who don't craft spend their time playing while the...dwayne germaine2017-03-06T23:32:28ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?thejeffhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5292017-03-06T23:20:29Z2017-03-06T23:20:29Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">_Ozy_ wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Balkoth wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote>There's a following section that addresses item creation for profit as well - with a similar "exceed by 25%" guideline. </blockquote><p>And which features this gem:
<p>"You might want to use an appropriate business to sell crafted items for more than half price, but the downtime system already accounts for using a building to generate money, as well as spending personal time helping run the business (see Run a Business). A typical magic shop earns about 3 gp per day, or perhaps 4—5 gp per day if a skilled owner PC directly participates in running the business. Because magic items are very expensive (with the most common potions costing 50 gp or more, far higher than what most commoners can afford), this income represents many days where the business sells nothing, followed by selling one or two high-priced items, which averages out to a few gp of profit per day. In other words, just because you can craft one +1 longsword each day doesn't mean you're likely to sell one each day in your shop."</p>
<p>In other words, earning 4-5 gold per day is on the high end of running a magic shop. That's your opportunity cost per day. </blockquote><p>Only if you're not also using that business to accumulate Magic capital, which you then use to craft at 1/4 and sell for 1/2.
<p>Then your opportunity cost is ~500gp per day. </blockquote><p>Did you read the quoted bit: "income represents many days where the business sells nothing, followed by selling one or two high-priced items, which averages out to a few gp of profit per day."
<p>Turning your work into Magic capital doesn't change that. It lets you craft more stuff, but doesn't generate customers to buy it from you. </p>
<p>Now, you can use that Magic Capital to craft stuff for your personal use - or to sell to other PCs, but that falls under the Adjusting WBL guidelines.</p>_Ozy_ wrote:Balkoth wrote: thejeff wrote:There's a following section that addresses item creation for profit as well - with a similar "exceed by 25%" guideline.
And which features this gem: "You might want to use an appropriate business to sell crafted items for more than half price, but the downtime system already accounts for using a building to generate money, as well as spending personal time helping run the business (see Run a Business). A typical magic shop earns about 3 gp per day, or...thejeff2017-03-06T23:20:29ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?Balkothhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5282017-03-06T22:51:14Z2017-03-06T22:51:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">_Ozy_ wrote:</div><blockquote><p>Only if you're not also using that business to accumulate Magic capital, which you then use to craft at 1/4 and sell for 1/2.</p>
<p>Then your opportunity cost is ~500gp per day.</blockquote><p>JUUUUUUUUUUUST to make sure we're on the same page...
<p>Unskilled laborers earn 0.1 gold per day.</p>
<p>Skilled laborers earn 1 gold per day.</p>
<p>Magic shop owners earn 3 gold per day.</p>
<p>Very skilled (PC help) magic shop owners earn 4-5 gold per day.</p>
<p>The most renowned bards in the world earn 10.5 gold per day.</p>
<p>But somehow your PC crafter can make 500 gold per day. Which I think brings us back to the core idea of...</p>
<p>"In other words, just because you can craft one +1 longsword each day doesn't mean you're likely to sell one each day in your shop."</p>
<p>So the GM would be well within his/her rights to say that you might be able to craft steadily at that 25% price (assuming that's right)...but with such an output you literally can't find the customers to sell your stuff at a steady stream.</p>_Ozy_ wrote:Only if you're not also using that business to accumulate Magic capital, which you then use to craft at 1/4 and sell for 1/2.
Then your opportunity cost is ~500gp per day.
JUUUUUUUUUUUST to make sure we're on the same page... Unskilled laborers earn 0.1 gold per day.
Skilled laborers earn 1 gold per day.
Magic shop owners earn 3 gold per day.
Very skilled (PC help) magic shop owners earn 4-5 gold per day.
The most renowned bards in the world earn 10.5 gold per day.
But...Balkoth2017-03-06T22:51:14ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?thejeffhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5272017-03-06T22:35:02Z2017-03-06T22:35:02Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Brain in a Jar wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Brain in a Jar wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Ultimate Campaign is optional rules anyway. </p>
<p>"Campaign Systems</p>
<p>This chapter presents a variety of small tweaks for your campaign, each one focused on giving life to moments and depth to activities in your game. You can use these systems individually or mix and match them together to taste." </blockquote>Of course, if you're not using those optional rules a lot of the "Well you're cutting into my profitable downtime by making me craft" arguments go away. </blockquote><p>True. Just wanted to point that out since its a optional system.
<p>It doesn't stop the point of the crafter using their downtime or craft time while adventuring for themselves only.</p>
<p>You get 8 hours of crafting in a day if you do nothing else or 4 hours while adventuring. Assuming you even have that time in the day.</p>
<p>If the crafter is doing nothing else. Then sure they should craft for the others in the group. That's a good thing to do.</p>
<p>But if they have a set of goals to reach and a crafting list (Pearls of Power, Headband, etc) and the other members of the group demand that the crafter make for everyone when they only have time for their own projects...it becomes unfair.</p>
<p>At that point its not ridiculous to ask for a small percentage in tips (15 to 20 percent) of the item. Because now the crafter is stuck making for everyone and missing out on the entire reason they got the feat in the first place (to make stuff for themselves).</p>
<p>All players have access to crafting feats or have the option of purchasing certain items in a large enough town.</p>
<p>A player getting a crafting feat doesn't automatically mean that everyone else gets to benefit from it. If they are short on time the other players can get a crafting feat as well... </blockquote><p>As I said above, if it's one or the other, there's little point in crafting for others, even with a surcharge. Wealth you don't turn into gear is pretty useless in this game. Making stuff for Bob so you have more money to make stuff for yourself that you don't make because you don't have time is silly. Even less sense if you make Bob's stuff for 60% then have to go buy your own.Brain in a Jar wrote:thejeff wrote: Brain in a Jar wrote:Ultimate Campaign is optional rules anyway.
"Campaign Systems
This chapter presents a variety of small tweaks for your campaign, each one focused on giving life to moments and depth to activities in your game. You can use these systems individually or mix and match them together to taste."
Of course, if you're not using those optional rules a lot of the "Well you're cutting into my profitable downtime by making me craft" arguments go...thejeff2017-03-06T22:35:02ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?Brain in a Jar (alias of Zachary Wydawski)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5262017-03-06T22:26:22Z2017-03-06T22:26:22Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Brain in a Jar wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Ultimate Campaign is optional rules anyway. </p>
<p>"Campaign Systems</p>
<p>This chapter presents a variety of small tweaks for your campaign, each one focused on giving life to moments and depth to activities in your game. You can use these systems individually or mix and match them together to taste." </blockquote>Of course, if you're not using those optional rules a lot of the "Well you're cutting into my profitable downtime by making me craft" arguments go away. </blockquote><p>True. Just wanted to point that out since its a optional system.
<p>It doesn't stop the point of the crafter using their downtime or craft time while adventuring for themselves only.</p>
<p>You get 8 hours of crafting in a day if you do nothing else or 4 hours while adventuring. Assuming you even have that time in the day.</p>
<p>If the crafter is doing nothing else. Then sure they should craft for the others in the group. That's a good thing to do.</p>
<p>But if they have a set of goals to reach and a crafting list (Pearls of Power, Headband, etc) and the other members of the group demand that the crafter make for everyone when they only have time for their own projects...it becomes unfair.</p>
<p>At that point its not ridiculous to ask for a small percentage in tips (15 to 20 percent) of the item. Because now the crafter is stuck making for everyone and missing out on the entire reason they got the feat in the first place (to make stuff for themselves).</p>
<p>All players have access to crafting feats or have the option of purchasing certain items in a large enough town.</p>
<p>A player getting a crafting feat doesn't automatically mean that everyone else gets to benefit from it. If they are short on time the other players can get a crafting feat as well...</p>thejeff wrote:Brain in a Jar wrote:Ultimate Campaign is optional rules anyway.
"Campaign Systems
This chapter presents a variety of small tweaks for your campaign, each one focused on giving life to moments and depth to activities in your game. You can use these systems individually or mix and match them together to taste."
Of course, if you're not using those optional rules a lot of the "Well you're cutting into my profitable downtime by making me craft" arguments go away. True. Just...Brain in a Jar (alias of Zachary Wydawski)2017-03-06T22:26:22ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?thejeffhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5252017-03-07T00:00:28Z2017-03-06T22:23:38Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">_Ozy_ wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">dwayne germaine wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">_Ozy_ wrote:</div><blockquote><p> if the Fighter is jealous of the supposed extra loot the Wizard is getting, he can take a crafting feat of his own to cash in on the lucrative business. Nobody is stopping him.
</p>
</blockquote><p>No no, He just goes off adventuring with the other non-crafters while the crafters work on their stuff. It's the only solution he has to the question of what to do to try to keep up in wealth with the crafter.
<p>So those who don't craft spend their time playing while the crafter tries to get richer than the other people in the party by making money off of them.</p>
<p>Of course this just makes everyone not want to take crafting feats because it interferes with playing. </blockquote><p>Nope. At that point everyone gets leadership so they get their own loyal wizard crafter. Then everyone goes off and plays while all of their followers stay home and craft.
<p>win - win - win for everyone•!</p>
<p>•GMs not included </blockquote><p>Who just shrugs and gives you less loot to make up for the wealth your cohort brings in._Ozy_ wrote:dwayne germaine wrote: _Ozy_ wrote:if the Fighter is jealous of the supposed extra loot the Wizard is getting, he can take a crafting feat of his own to cash in on the lucrative business. Nobody is stopping him.
No no, He just goes off adventuring with the other non-crafters while the crafters work on their stuff. It's the only solution he has to the question of what to do to try to keep up in wealth with the crafter. So those who don't craft spend their time playing while the...thejeff2017-03-06T22:23:38ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?_Ozy_https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5242017-03-06T22:12:36Z2017-03-06T22:12:36Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">dwayne germaine wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">_Ozy_ wrote:</div><blockquote><p> if the Fighter is jealous of the supposed extra loot the Wizard is getting, he can take a crafting feat of his own to cash in on the lucrative business. Nobody is stopping him.
</p>
</blockquote><p>No no, He just goes off adventuring with the other non-crafters while the crafters work on their stuff. It's the only solution he has to the question of what to do to try to keep up in wealth with the crafter.
<p>So those who don't craft spend their time playing while the crafter tries to get richer than the other people in the party by making money off of them.</p>
<p>Of course this just makes everyone not want to take crafting feats because it interferes with playing. </blockquote><p>Nope. At that point everyone gets leadership so they get their own loyal wizard crafter. Then everyone goes off and plays while all of their followers stay home and craft.
<p>win - win - win for everyone•!</p>
<p>•GMs not included</p>dwayne germaine wrote:_Ozy_ wrote:if the Fighter is jealous of the supposed extra loot the Wizard is getting, he can take a crafting feat of his own to cash in on the lucrative business. Nobody is stopping him.
No no, He just goes off adventuring with the other non-crafters while the crafters work on their stuff. It's the only solution he has to the question of what to do to try to keep up in wealth with the crafter. So those who don't craft spend their time playing while the crafter tries..._Ozy_2017-03-06T22:12:36ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?dwayne germainehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5232017-03-06T22:11:05Z2017-03-06T22:11:05Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">_Ozy_ wrote:</div><blockquote><p> if the Fighter is jealous of the supposed extra loot the Wizard is getting, he can take a crafting feat of his own to cash in on the lucrative business. Nobody is stopping him.
</p>
</blockquote><p>No no, He just goes off adventuring with the other non-crafters while the crafters work on their stuff. It's the only solution he has to the question of what to do to try to keep up in wealth with the crafter.
<p>So those who don't craft spend their time playing while the crafter tries to get richer than the other people in the party by making money off of them.</p>
<p>Of course this just makes everyone not want to take crafting feats because it interferes with playing.</p>_Ozy_ wrote:if the Fighter is jealous of the supposed extra loot the Wizard is getting, he can take a crafting feat of his own to cash in on the lucrative business. Nobody is stopping him.
No no, He just goes off adventuring with the other non-crafters while the crafters work on their stuff. It's the only solution he has to the question of what to do to try to keep up in wealth with the crafter. So those who don't craft spend their time playing while the crafter tries to get richer than the...dwayne germaine2017-03-06T22:11:05ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?_Ozy_https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5222017-03-06T21:58:05Z2017-03-06T21:58:05Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Balkoth wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote>There's a following section that addresses item creation for profit as well - with a similar "exceed by 25%" guideline. </blockquote><p>And which features this gem:
<p>"You might want to use an appropriate business to sell crafted items for more than half price, but the downtime system already accounts for using a building to generate money, as well as spending personal time helping run the business (see Run a Business). A typical magic shop earns about 3 gp per day, or perhaps 4—5 gp per day if a skilled owner PC directly participates in running the business. Because magic items are very expensive (with the most common potions costing 50 gp or more, far higher than what most commoners can afford), this income represents many days where the business sells nothing, followed by selling one or two high-priced items, which averages out to a few gp of profit per day. In other words, just because you can craft one +1 longsword each day doesn't mean you're likely to sell one each day in your shop."</p>
<p>In other words, earning 4-5 gold per day is on the high end of running a magic shop. That's your opportunity cost per day. </blockquote><p>Only if you're not also using that business to accumulate Magic capital, which you then use to craft at 1/4 and sell for 1/2.
<p>Then your opportunity cost is ~500gp per day.</p>Balkoth wrote:thejeff wrote:There's a following section that addresses item creation for profit as well - with a similar "exceed by 25%" guideline.
And which features this gem: "You might want to use an appropriate business to sell crafted items for more than half price, but the downtime system already accounts for using a building to generate money, as well as spending personal time helping run the business (see Run a Business). A typical magic shop earns about 3 gp per day, or perhaps 4—5..._Ozy_2017-03-06T21:58:05ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?_Ozy_https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5212017-03-06T21:55:49Z2017-03-06T21:55:49Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">DrDeth wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">_Ozy_ wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">DrDeth wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Ravingdork wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Balkoth wrote:</div><blockquote>So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case. </blockquote><p>No it's not.
<p><span class=messageboard-ooc>"In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?"</span></p>
<p>^ This is what the thread is about. This is what the OP set before us to try and answer. Don't go around moving the goal posts. Make a new thread for that. </blockquote><p>The crafter spends a feat to increase the entire parties WBL, thus making the party better are adventuring.
<p>His reward is a share of the increased loot the better party gets.</blockquote><p>No, he gets the same share of loot.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>What reward should a Fighter get for taking Power attack? </blockquote><p>The same reward that the Wizard gets for taking spell focus: conjuration. On the other hand, if the Fighter is jealous of the supposed extra loot the Wizard is getting, he can take a crafting feat of his own to cash in on the lucrative business. Nobody is stopping him.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>what reward should the cleric get for taking Improved Init, so her party buff go off faster?</blockquote><p>See the above. It's even easier for the Cleric to take crafting and jump on the 'extra loot' bandwagon.
<p>Heck, if everyone in the party takes a craft feat, then it's extra loot all around! </blockquote><p>Same share yes, but of more loot.
<p>There is no extra loot if everyone is just selling to each other. </blockquote><p>There is extra loot if your WBL is otherwise being adjusted downward without a craft feat.
<p>You need craft feats just to keep your WBL up.</p>DrDeth wrote:_Ozy_ wrote: DrDeth wrote: Ravingdork wrote: Balkoth wrote:So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case.
No it's not. "In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?"
^ This is what the thread is about. This is what the OP set before us to try and answer. Don't go around moving the goal posts. Make a new thread for that. The crafter spends a feat to..._Ozy_2017-03-06T21:55:49ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?Balkothhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5202017-03-06T21:53:32Z2017-03-06T21:53:32Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote>There's a following section that addresses item creation for profit as well - with a similar "exceed by 25%" guideline. </blockquote><p>And which features this gem:
<p>"You might want to use an appropriate business to sell crafted items for more than half price, but the downtime system already accounts for using a building to generate money, as well as spending personal time helping run the business (see Run a Business). A typical magic shop earns about 3 gp per day, or perhaps 4—5 gp per day if a skilled owner PC directly participates in running the business. Because magic items are very expensive (with the most common potions costing 50 gp or more, far higher than what most commoners can afford), this income represents many days where the business sells nothing, followed by selling one or two high-priced items, which averages out to a few gp of profit per day. In other words, just because you can craft one +1 longsword each day doesn't mean you're likely to sell one each day in your shop."</p>
<p>In other words, earning 4-5 gold per day is on the high end of running a magic shop. That's your opportunity cost per day.</p>thejeff wrote:There's a following section that addresses item creation for profit as well - with a similar "exceed by 25%" guideline.
And which features this gem: "You might want to use an appropriate business to sell crafted items for more than half price, but the downtime system already accounts for using a building to generate money, as well as spending personal time helping run the business (see Run a Business). A typical magic shop earns about 3 gp per day, or perhaps 4—5 gp per day if...Balkoth2017-03-06T21:53:32ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?DrDethhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5192017-03-06T21:53:01Z2017-03-06T21:53:01Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">_Ozy_ wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">DrDeth wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Ravingdork wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Balkoth wrote:</div><blockquote>So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case. </blockquote><p>No it's not.
<p><span class=messageboard-ooc>"In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?"</span></p>
<p>^ This is what the thread is about. This is what the OP set before us to try and answer. Don't go around moving the goal posts. Make a new thread for that. </blockquote><p>The crafter spends a feat to increase the entire parties WBL, thus making the party better are adventuring.
<p>His reward is a share of the increased loot the better party gets.</blockquote><p>No, he gets the same share of loot.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>What reward should a Fighter get for taking Power attack? </blockquote><p>The same reward that the Wizard gets for taking spell focus: conjuration. On the other hand, if the Fighter is jealous of the supposed extra loot the Wizard is getting, he can take a crafting feat of his own to cash in on the lucrative business. Nobody is stopping him.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>what reward should the cleric get for taking Improved Init, so her party buff go off faster?</blockquote><p>See the above. It's even easier for the Cleric to take crafting and jump on the 'extra loot' bandwagon.
<p>Heck, if everyone in the party takes a craft feat, then it's extra loot all around! </blockquote><p>Same share yes, but of more loot.
<p>There is no extra loot if everyone is just selling to each other.</p>_Ozy_ wrote:DrDeth wrote: Ravingdork wrote: Balkoth wrote:So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case.
No it's not. "In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?"
^ This is what the thread is about. This is what the OP set before us to try and answer. Don't go around moving the goal posts. Make a new thread for that. The crafter spends a feat to increase the entire...DrDeth2017-03-06T21:53:01ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?Chengar Qordathhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5182017-03-06T21:52:33Z2017-03-06T21:52:33Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">nicholas storm wrote:</div><blockquote><p> If you follow the rules in ultimate campaign, you could charge your allies full price for crafting, but the extra gold you get from crafting would not be added to your character - it would just poof disappear. </p>
<p>If you charged less than full price, your own WBL would decrease and whatever extra you would make from the item creation would poof disappear. </blockquote>More accurately, your wealth would increase to a point ~25%-50%, after that the GM would decrease the loot found to compensate. Since loot is divided, this has the negative effect of lowering everyone's wealth, likely leaving the crafter above WBL and everyone else below. </blockquote><p>Only if the GM is bad at balancing loot, and gives all of it as pure cash and/or trash items that exist to be sold for GP. Most GMs will toss out at least some keepable items along with the pure cash, and having those drops favor the non-crafter can easily balance WBL.thejeff wrote:nicholas storm wrote:If you follow the rules in ultimate campaign, you could charge your allies full price for crafting, but the extra gold you get from crafting would not be added to your character - it would just poof disappear.
If you charged less than full price, your own WBL would decrease and whatever extra you would make from the item creation would poof disappear.
More accurately, your wealth would increase to a point ~25%-50%, after that the GM would decrease the loot...Chengar Qordath2017-03-06T21:52:33ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?thejeffhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5172017-03-06T21:39:43Z2017-03-06T21:39:43Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Brain in a Jar wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Ultimate Campaign is optional rules anyway. </p>
<p>"Campaign Systems</p>
<p>This chapter presents a variety of small tweaks for your campaign, each one focused on giving life to moments and depth to activities in your game. You can use these systems individually or mix and match them together to taste." </blockquote><p>Of course, if you're not using those optional rules a lot of the "Well you're cutting into my profitable downtime by making me craft" arguments go away.Brain in a Jar wrote:Ultimate Campaign is optional rules anyway.
"Campaign Systems
This chapter presents a variety of small tweaks for your campaign, each one focused on giving life to moments and depth to activities in your game. You can use these systems individually or mix and match them together to taste."
Of course, if you're not using those optional rules a lot of the "Well you're cutting into my profitable downtime by making me craft" arguments go away.thejeff2017-03-06T21:39:43ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?thejeffhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5162017-03-06T21:53:25Z2017-03-06T21:35:37Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">nicholas storm wrote:</div><blockquote><p> If you follow the rules in ultimate campaign, you could charge your allies full price for crafting, but the extra gold you get from crafting would not be added to your character - it would just poof disappear. </p>
<p>If you charged less than full price, your own WBL would decrease and whatever extra you would make from the item creation would poof disappear. </blockquote><p>More accurately, your wealth would increase to a point ~25%-50%, after that the GM would decrease the loot found to compensate. Since loot is divided, this has the negative effect of lowering everyone's wealth, likely leaving the crafter above WBL and everyone else below.nicholas storm wrote:If you follow the rules in ultimate campaign, you could charge your allies full price for crafting, but the extra gold you get from crafting would not be added to your character - it would just poof disappear.
If you charged less than full price, your own WBL would decrease and whatever extra you would make from the item creation would poof disappear.
More accurately, your wealth would increase to a point ~25%-50%, after that the GM would decrease the loot found to...thejeff2017-03-06T21:35:37ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?_Ozy_https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5152017-03-06T21:28:03Z2017-03-06T21:28:03Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">DrDeth wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Ravingdork wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Balkoth wrote:</div><blockquote>So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case. </blockquote><p>No it's not.
<p><span class=messageboard-ooc>"In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?"</span></p>
<p>^ This is what the thread is about. This is what the OP set before us to try and answer. Don't go around moving the goal posts. Make a new thread for that. </blockquote><p>The crafter spends a feat to increase the entire parties WBL, thus making the party better are adventuring.
<p>His reward is a share of the increased loot the better party gets.</blockquote><p>No, he gets the same share of loot.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>What reward should a Fighter get for taking Power attack? </blockquote><p>The same reward that the Wizard gets for taking spell focus: conjuration. On the other hand, if the Fighter is jealous of the supposed extra loot the Wizard is getting, he can take a crafting feat of his own to cash in on the lucrative business. Nobody is stopping him.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>what reward should the cleric get for taking Improved Init, so her party buff go off faster?</blockquote><p>See the above. It's even easier for the Cleric to take crafting and jump on the 'extra loot' bandwagon.
<p>Heck, if everyone in the party takes a craft feat, then it's extra loot all around!</p>DrDeth wrote:Ravingdork wrote: Balkoth wrote:So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case.
No it's not. "In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?"
^ This is what the thread is about. This is what the OP set before us to try and answer. Don't go around moving the goal posts. Make a new thread for that. The crafter spends a feat to increase the entire parties WBL,..._Ozy_2017-03-06T21:28:03ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?Brain in a Jar (alias of Zachary Wydawski)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5142017-03-06T21:10:54Z2017-03-06T21:10:54Z<p>Ultimate Campaign is optional rules anyway. </p>
<p>"Campaign Systems</p>
<p>This chapter presents a variety of small tweaks for your campaign, each one focused on giving life to moments and depth to activities in your game. You can use these systems individually or mix and match them together to taste."</p>Ultimate Campaign is optional rules anyway.
"Campaign Systems
This chapter presents a variety of small tweaks for your campaign, each one focused on giving life to moments and depth to activities in your game. You can use these systems individually or mix and match them together to taste."Brain in a Jar (alias of Zachary Wydawski)2017-03-06T21:10:54ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?nicholas storm (alias of Jon Otaguro 428)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5132017-03-06T21:01:10Z2017-03-06T21:01:10Z<p>If you follow the rules in ultimate campaign, you could charge your allies full price for crafting, but the extra gold you get from crafting would not be added to your character - it would just poof disappear. </p>
<p>If you charged less than full price, your own WBL would decrease and whatever extra you would make from the item creation would poof disappear.</p>If you follow the rules in ultimate campaign, you could charge your allies full price for crafting, but the extra gold you get from crafting would not be added to your character - it would just poof disappear.
If you charged less than full price, your own WBL would decrease and whatever extra you would make from the item creation would poof disappear.nicholas storm (alias of Jon Otaguro 428)2017-03-06T21:01:10ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?andrewwhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5122017-03-06T20:19:31Z2017-03-06T20:19:31Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ravingdork wrote:</div><blockquote>What's the source for that rule you quoted? GameMastery Guide? Ultimate Campaign? Ultimate Equipment? A FAQ? Some forum post containing a developer's opinion? </blockquote><p>Ultimate Campaign, page 173.Ravingdork wrote:What's the source for that rule you quoted? GameMastery Guide? Ultimate Campaign? Ultimate Equipment? A FAQ? Some forum post containing a developer's opinion?
Ultimate Campaign, page 173.andreww2017-03-06T20:19:31ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?thejeffhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5112017-03-06T20:18:29Z2017-03-06T20:18:29Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ravingdork wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Ravingdork wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Balkoth wrote:</div><blockquote>So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case. </blockquote><p>No it's not.
<p><span class=messageboard-ooc>"In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?"</span></p>
<p>^ This is what the thread is about. This is what the OP set before us to try and answer. Don't go around moving the goal posts. Make a new thread for that. </blockquote><p>Well, if that's the question, there's an answer in the rules.
</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote><p>However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn’t just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.</p>
<p>If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment.</blockquote><p>There's a separate, but related question about how other downtime activities should be allowed to affect a character's power through increase in gear/WBL. I think the implication that it shouldn't - unless the character invests feats or other character build resources and that it should be limited to roughly the same return as crafting feats provide.
</p>
</blockquote>What's the source for that rule you quoted? GameMastery Guide? Ultimate Campaign? Ultimate Equipment? A FAQ? Some forum post containing a developer's opinion? </blockquote><p><a href="aizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/campaignSystems/magicItemCreation.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Ultimate Campaign</a>. There's a following section that addresses item creation for profit as well - with a similar "exceed by 25%" guideline.Ravingdork wrote:thejeff wrote: Ravingdork wrote: Balkoth wrote:So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case.
No it's not. "In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?"
^ This is what the thread is about. This is what the OP set before us to try and answer. Don't go around moving the goal posts. Make a new thread for that. Well, if that's the question, there's an...thejeff2017-03-06T20:18:29ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?Ravingdorkhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5102017-03-06T20:03:07Z2017-03-06T20:03:07Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Ravingdork wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Balkoth wrote:</div><blockquote>So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case. </blockquote><p>No it's not.
<p><span class=messageboard-ooc>"In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?"</span></p>
<p>^ This is what the thread is about. This is what the OP set before us to try and answer. Don't go around moving the goal posts. Make a new thread for that. </blockquote><p>Well, if that's the question, there's an answer in the rules.
</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote><p>However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn’t just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.</p>
<p>If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment.</blockquote><p>There's a separate, but related question about how other downtime activities should be allowed to affect a character's power through increase in gear/WBL. I think the implication that it shouldn't - unless the character invests feats or other character build resources and that it should be limited to roughly the same return as crafting feats provide.
</p>
</blockquote><p>What's the source for that rule you quoted? GameMastery Guide? Ultimate Campaign? Ultimate Equipment? A FAQ? Some forum post containing a developer's opinion?thejeff wrote:Ravingdork wrote: Balkoth wrote:So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case.
No it's not. "In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?"
^ This is what the thread is about. This is what the OP set before us to try and answer. Don't go around moving the goal posts. Make a new thread for that. Well, if that's the question, there's an answer in the
...Ravingdork2017-03-06T20:03:07ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?Ieroxhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5092017-03-06T19:49:07Z2017-03-06T19:49:07Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Rub-Eta wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Ierox wrote:</div><blockquote>Yes! I won't pay him more than he could usually get just because he's my friend.</blockquote>But you're only paying for the material components, not for his work and time, if you don't pay him more than 50% of the item's value. Do you expect him do make it for free, just because you're friends? </blockquote><p>Yes, because he has no other option. If <i>I</i> don't buy from him, he will only ever sell at 50% cost.
<p>I don't see why the fact that I'm the one buying, as opposed to an NPC, should change that.</p>
<p>He doesn't have to craft for me, obviously, but if he's going to, then I'm going to pay him 50%, because that's what his items are worth.</p>Rub-Eta wrote:Ierox wrote:Yes! I won't pay him more than he could usually get just because he's my friend.
But you're only paying for the material components, not for his work and time, if you don't pay him more than 50% of the item's value. Do you expect him do make it for free, just because you're friends? Yes, because he has no other option. If I don't buy from him, he will only ever sell at 50% cost. I don't see why the fact that I'm the one buying, as opposed to an NPC, should change...Ierox2017-03-06T19:49:07ZRe: Forums: Advice: Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?DrDethhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7go&page=11?Would-it-be-ok-for-a-crafter-pg-to-make-his#5082017-03-06T19:21:35Z2017-03-06T19:21:35Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ravingdork wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Balkoth wrote:</div><blockquote>So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case. </blockquote><p>No it's not.
<p><span class=messageboard-ooc>"In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?"</span></p>
<p>^ This is what the thread is about. This is what the OP set before us to try and answer. Don't go around moving the goal posts. Make a new thread for that. </blockquote><p>The crafter spends a feat to increase the entire parties WBL, thus making the party better are adventuring.
<p>His reward is a share of the increased loot the better party gets.</p>
<p>What reward should a Fighter get for taking Power attack? </p>
<p>what reward should the cleric get for taking Improved Init, so her party buff go off faster?</p>Ravingdork wrote:Balkoth wrote:So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case.
No it's not. "In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?"
^ This is what the thread is about. This is what the OP set before us to try and answer. Don't go around moving the goal posts. Make a new thread for that. The crafter spends a feat to increase the entire parties WBL, thus making...DrDeth2017-03-06T19:21:35Z