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Why, besides adding secondary properties like spell storing cited above to a Haramaki, wouldn't an arcane caster simply go with the cheap, weightless, and anti-incorporeal Mage Armor spell?

Danny StarDust wrote:

- High Priest (Fishes/Pisces) [a water based tower]

Now some specifics. This tower almost writes itself. Not only do water elementals and aquatic beasts and traps come to mind, but its opposite fire does, too. Maybe some of the fire forces could even be helpful/friendly towards the PCs.

Danny StarDust wrote:

- Lawgiver (water bearer/Aquarius)

(presuming the law-giver theme here):

Maybe here we have some desecrated Archon temples that are now infested with Lawful Evil baddies. Maybe the PCs could rescue an Archon from his imprisonment from his oppositely aligned Devil tormentors.

I know those are the barest of thumbnail sketches, but I hope it might be a start for you.

Maybe if you think of what kind of atmosphere you want your PCs to confront in each tower you could even change the aspect of a particular zodiacal sign or signs. In other words you could reverse engineer the titles based on what you decide to throw at the players.

The only other equivalent I can think of to what you're going for is the seven sins (if that's even the right word) of Thassilonian magic.

If you're interested in seeing how that played out, see Shattered Star and Rise of the Runelords adventure paths and Thassilonian magic descriptions in general. IIRC, we had to go through 7 "dungeons" each with the appropriately flavored monsters, NPCs and challenges.

I wish I could be more specific, but it's been so long since I've played that theme that's all I've got.

Perhaps someone else could offer more practical applications.

ekibus wrote:
...Intresting though is soulbound puppet and Necromantic Servant don't have the evil description so I can cast them until blue in the face...sigh and with PFS there isnt just one gm.

I think you just answered your own question. The effective GM in this case says "Heck yeah. Go ahead and spawn away."

FWIW, your reasoning that your recycled crew are mindless and soulless would mean your character could hypothetically be of Good alignment. It would provide some interesting role playing angles.

If you really wanted to focus on the rules aspect of your question, the rules lawyers who haunt the Paizo rules board here have a pretty good track record.

Someone in your party summons an Archon. Some enemy of whatever alignment takes control and it attacks you. You cast Protection from Good.

You just committed an evil act. Horrors. Pffft- RAW can be be petty and silly.

It seems though the issue in the o.p. is creating undead, which can be pretty horrific. I don't see a hard and fast rule so much as what your GM and you come up with.

In Tolkien's LotR world, the GM decided that Sauron creating Nazgul was an evil act while Aragon's unleashing the Army of the Dead was neutral at worst.

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Secret Wizard wrote:
My personal admiration goes to all the brave souls who came to a forum to debate, something unread of to this date.

My admiration goes to all who helped me with my build issue. My admiration goes to those who stayed on topic. My admiration cannot be granted to those who ignored what was explicitly stated and clogged up a thread.

My admiration could be extended to those wishing to debate a particular issue on an apt posting. The general topic here is "Advice." That's what I asked for and I'm thankful for those who helped out.

I asked a question with which I wanted help. Thanks for the gifted minority of people who answered the topic. Your advice was duly considered when I made my character.

To the majority of posters who disregarded the question, brought in their hobby horses, and derailed the thread- the uselessness of your responses was matched by their unhelpfulness. Please feel free to make any and all points about how my issue is beside the point and how low point buy rules or sucks on a different thread.

I have looked at the web sites and pfsrd even has a stat block ofr Monster Summoning 1 with both augmented stats and celestial/fiendish templates. But only for 1. So not really user friendly. Nethys is even more of a hunt and click fest.

For the first time on this board looks like I've asked for the impossible. Strange that such an animal doesn't exist.

Searching the internet in general and these forums has proven frustrating and provided either useless or dead links.

I'm looking for stat blocks ideally but really any pre-made cards or files that have Summon Monster I-IX critters ready to go. I just found out I'm not a necromancer (so many promising leads that proved dead) or an investigator in real life.

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JiaYou wrote:
EpicFail wrote:

Dedicated arcane or divine casters are a bonus as our group will probably need me to be one, but suggestions are welcome.

Otherwise one trait, Pathfinder published material ok.

I would definitely recommend an Elf Conjurer or Sloth mage if your GM allows you to be a Thassilonian mage. Elf with Illustrious Urbanite just trades away Keen Senses for Spell Focus Conjuration, Illusion or Transmutation (trade of the century I'd say). I'd recommend a 19 INT at level 1, meaning DC 16 Greases, DC 17 Glitterdusts, and DC 20 Stinking Clouds (because of COURSE you took Greater Spell Focus between level 1 and 5). As a conjurer you also get a minor bump to the duration of summoning spells, so that's another option for you (although Occultist Arcanist is I believe a better summoner, I don't have any experience with them).

1.Great minds think alike! I'm probably going with just that selection. Although the Evangelist Cleric build suggested early on is a close second.

2.I guess I should have been clearer and more emphatic. I'm also thinking of future people searching threads like this one. Please oh please don't tell me how great or how awful a 15 point buy is. Don't tell me how characters are better or worse off with stat arrays EXCEPT how it directly involves picking a class that works well within the parameters set (a 15 buy when one is used to 20 plus as standard).

3. Thanks Evilserran. Kineticist is a class I've never played before so I'll have to look into that.

Thanks for the suggestions and especially for suggesting what works least well in the 15 point buy.

Keep the posts coming as we won't start until a few weeks. BUT please note, the thread is not geared to investigate if stingy or generous point buys are best; it's what works better/best when one is used to higher point buys and the situation changes.

Every one who stayed on topic taught me something, and vice versa. :)

Starting at first level in a campaign that will go to level 13 or so.

I'm spoiled with our group going for a point-buy on the 20-25 range. So what the heck am I supposed to do with a 15 point buy? What classes do well with that parameter?

Summoner and its variants are out. Most other stuff is in. Dedicated arcane or divine casters are a bonus as our group will probably need me to be one, but suggestions are welcome.

Otherwise one trait, Pathfinder published material ok.

Between web searches and looking back at the Magus Guidebooks, there's a ton of ideas on Dexterity focused Magi builds. Many even cite Elves as great race for that type of build. Kensai, at first glance I'll have to look into this option, is an Archetype recommended most.

Just about all of those ideas up there look pretty tempting, so thanks again for the input everyone.

Slim Jim wrote:

With diminished con, rather that fighting it, I'd contemplate builds capable of ameliorating low con. and Magus is arguably most kick-ass for a point-buy elf wanting to mix it up in melee:

STR: 7 or 10 or 14
DEX+ 17 (raise 4th)
CON- 12 (Elf, 15,15,14,14,10,7 20pt array)
INT+ 17 (all other bumps)
WIS: 14 or 10
CHA: 10 or 14 or 7

-- You'll be UMD'ing a wand of False Life out of combat, and casting Mirror Image at 4th. You have all martial weapon proficiencies and can cast in light armor.

Any particular Archetype you'd suggest for that Dex heavy Magus build? I like how it does play to the strengths of Elven ability adjustments. With a metamagic rod Mirror Image would be a go to spell that would last my entire career- who needs those stupid hit points anyway!

Thanks everyone for the suggestions so far. They all look like they could be pretty solid for what I want. You all have given me lots and lots of homework as I'm not familiar with a lot of the classes and feats thrown at me- bravo!

Given I have an Elf who, however inefficiently or even suicidedly, wants to be on the front line, how can we d create this as effectively as possible? That hit to Constitution is painful for what we need to do.

Think Elf in an upcoming, undetermined adventure path which means going from 1st to about 15th level for our group with three other pals. He doesn't necessarily need to do massive DPR, but he certainly needs to hold off bad guys. I'm not looking for a floating, mobile Dervish but someone who holds the line while the others do their thing in the back.

Any and all Pathfinder published material in play, even obscure adventure path material, with a 20 point buy.

While more detail is welcomed with archetypes, feats, and/or traits mapped out,
even outlines of build ideas could help.

Thanks. That info will help me out.

Thanks for the responses. I thought it was a little unbalanced to have something like that RAW.

Rules as written state the range for an Alchemist's bombs is 20 feet. That's pretty scary and way to close to danger for the bomb focused among us.

So how do we get a greater distance in our range?

(As it's probable that this has been covered in the guides, I thank everyone in advance for your patience with the question. I'm going cross-eyed reading everything trying to get a character going and don't have much time to left to finish him)

Someone, long forgotten, posted a build that had a Familiar granting him an intelligence bonus. A few problems- I have no idea if it was RAW and I've completely forgotten what it involved.

So, does such a Familiar exist and what if anything is required to get it?

Dave Justus wrote:
Let me add one thing, In most fights a round or two of buffing is plenty, and unless things go wrong you run out of things to do. One nice feature of the bard is that with 3/4 and a feat or two you can fairly effectively join in combat. This isn't so true of a wizard, so you might want to make a plan for rounds in which you don't really need to spend a spell, but combat isn't quite wrapped up yet.

[emphasis mine]

One plan is take Craft Wand feat and use those to summon mooks to help the front line out and/or maybe cast magic missile or other nice low level combat spells. I have to remember that my guy can't always and only be buffing but may have to get his hands dirty a little bit in combat.

Thanks everyone for the helpful input. I feel better about the concept and the specifics helped. As we aren't playing for a week or so, please keep the suggestions coming.

So how do you get a Wizard to focus on utility and buffing while being a viable character?

My gaming group can come up with some interesting and/or potent characters, but when it comes to utility and especially buffing they are terrible. Fortunately those are two areas I like, so I've been playing Bards with this particular group. The one utility area I don't like and we don't need is the "party face" diplomacy person.

Everything is up for discussion meaning traits, feats, school specialization and whatever you can think of to help. If it's impossible for Wizards to viably compete with Bards, then even that information would help. But I want to have a go with a Wizard with your assistance.

Background and Mechanics:

-A mini-campaign from 6th to about 10th level

-20 point buy

-All Pathfinder published material ok, including the obscure campaign stuff.

pad300 wrote:

Another alternative is the rules in Inner Sea Magic for the Acadamae in Korvasa.

Thanks. I don't suppose that would be online somewhere?

I'm wondering if there are any added monsters to either the Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally lists. Both spells were in the Core Rulebook.

Someone at a game table summoned a lightning elemental in place of an air elemental. I went is that legal? The GM and he both went of course it's cool.

It got me thinking whether, not counting feats like Summon Good Monster et al, there are any new critters on these lists.

I'd like to include any and all Pathfinder published including campaign settings, but not third party material.

pauljathome wrote:
EpicFail wrote:

The changes to the class make it unplayable (from the standpoint of enjoyment) for me.

You might want to hold your nose and give it a try. At least for me (and I shared many of your misgivings) it actually DID work quite well in play. Far better than I expected it to.


It FELT like a wild shaping druid in play.

No thanks. Many of the things I did in wildshape in actual play before are precluded by the rule changes. I'm sure the that wildshape still has its uses, it just is too radical a shift downward in a main class feature for me.

Vidmaster7 wrote:
EpicFail wrote:

See I just don't understand. I actually really like the druid changes. I don't know what you could possibly be complaining about. There is some wild shape things that need to be rounded out but over all I really like it.

Nerfing is only important in regards to the internal consistency of the system. If the problem is the numbers just aren't as high that really doesn't matter as long as the monster numbers are reducded as well. at that point what once was a +44 being just a +23 doesn't have any flavor differences its just a number.

Now if your complaint is that spell casters are no longer over powered to the point where they make everything else trivial then that is something I can understand but I am against. If you want spells to trivialize the game then that is irreconcilable in my book.

Just about every single change to the Druid is what I don't like. Wildshape is probably the single worst change as it affects not only combat but role playing- even the existential feel of the class. It's rather pointless out of combat and chokes some of the soul of what was a really complicated, rich class.

If you want to reduce this to a debate about power gaming and magic, I decline that invitation. It's not about numbers; it's not about being able to sizzle monsters or make the fighter feel bad. It's about vaporizing the class features of the Druid.

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Sorry to be off topic, but it would be better if we could get past the personal suppositions and focus on the game itself I think.

I'd rather this thread not get locked down because I've read many good points, some of which I even disagree with, that have helped me focus my thoughts on this game.

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For clarity, the changes that PF2 has made, the overall ideas behind them, have alienated my group. Not playtesting as such; not working with an incomplete project.

There's a mindset to nerf class abilities and magic in general that take out flavor and fun in the game. I'm sorry if that's not specific enough, and I'm working to make my thoughts clearer. But I look at what they did to the Druid in particular with horror. The same goes for the other spell casting classes that I haven't studied as closely. I just don't see, barring a severe change of heart, without throwing out the guiding principles that led to the changes, how they could be re-worked so that I'd ever want to play PF2.

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Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there all,

Just wanted to drop in and say that if the playtest is not working for your group, that is OK. Playtesting is not for everyone.

Thanks for the input. It's not the playtest as such that's the sticking point for me or my group, though. I thought the adventure was fun, but not enough fun to overcome the rule changes.

pauljathome wrote:

Genuine question for those of you who hate the changes.

Is this based on actual play experience or on theory crafting?

I've played the druid and find it quite enjoyable. And quite viable as a character. Its flexibility more than makes up for its lack of raw power. Hence my question

The changes to the class make it unplayable (from the standpoint of enjoyment) for me. The nerf cudgel to the class features are principal but not sole reason. Wildshape is one of the reasons as it affects not only combat but role playing as well.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

@JoelF847 and John Lynch 106:

That's fair. Many games aren't for everyone. I certainly agree that some people dropping out are because it just isn't the game for them...though I do think that in some (but by no means all) cases that's due to stuff that might yet change.


I can't see the fundamental mechanics of PF2 changing. There's an outlook driving the rules and changes I and most of my group don't want to play. Tweaking around a few rules ain't gonna change that very much.

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JoelF847 wrote:

... I did want to share this data point though, and would be curious to hear how many others have had similar experiences.

Our gaming group, who have played PF1 adventure paths for over five years, came to pretty much the same conclusion. In fairness, there were some who wanted to give it a little more play, and I think I was the most militant against this adaptation. But it was nearly all thumbs down on a fundamental level. The entire philosophy of the change was judged to be lacking. that was our takeaway.

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Reading over the Druid in the new handbook is what turned me off completely to this system. I thought maybe I misread the rules. They couldn't have really meant to do that to wildshape surely! Every benefit of the doubt vanished, and reading the other classes over had me shaking my head.

Options are what made Druids so cool. You didn't have to be a melee mauler, but could relish in utility and spell slinging. The new wildshape in quality(fewer forms, melee oriented) and quantity (ridiculously short duration) is beyond disappointing. I wish they would have just renamed the class itself it's that alienated from what it was.

I just hope they keep publishing material for original Pathfinder.

Just for reference, the class skill bonus is +3. A 7 stat is -2. There's no reason, for example, why a 7 Charisma would necessitate a "Duh, Whatta I do?" approach when say trying to Bluff or Gain Information (Diplomacy skill)depending on what else is going with the character. It really depends on what you want and imagine the critter to be doing. (Apologies if I'm being too defensive here)

As for role playing, there's always the path of the idiot savant. The "Rainmaker" guy had an Intelligence of lower than 7 I would think, but he could tell you the cube root of 10 to a bunch of decimal places.

Unless you want the Perform for your role playing, there's not a lot of reason to have much or even any points go there.

For those who don't have extra skill points to put in linguistics, how are we supposed to talk to everyone? I'm asking primarily for my Bard and his Suggestion spell and performance shenanigans. But who doesn't want to be in on the conversation?

So what magic items can do this for us?

The Ioun Stone Eastern Star(4000 gold) gives you Comprehend Languages. That's great, but passive- you can't speak or write but only understand the language. The Gold Nodule (5,000 gold) gives you one language mastery. But it's awkward and costly to collect a bunch of those.

Thanks all for the many choices.

I'm looking for magic items that get my guy out of grapples. Ring of freedom of movement is the gold standard, but it takes a lot of gold. What else is there? Bonus if it's a wondrous item because I can probably craft it. One-use items are hypothetically welcome if they're cheap enough, easy to get to, and don't take up a slot. Thanks.

Background = 9th level vanilla Bard, but I'm interested in any help for all classes.

A friend is joining the group in mid-campaign. A Pathfinder newbie, he's a strategy board game veteran so he's adept at complex decision making and lots of moving parts. He's expressed a desire to play a Wizard and be an Elf and seeks help in doing so.

The party has a Cleric, a Mage, and Inquisitor- an optimized Fighter shows up sometimes as well. 20 point buy. Two traits and all published Pathfinder material. We're all 8th level and he would come in at 8th with standard wealth by level gear. We'll probably play to 13th level.

In all my Pathfinder years, I've made exactly one Wizard! I want my buddy to feel on an equal footing. None of us will care if his character is "better" than ours, but I think my pal will feel bad if he's not up there in ability from what I know of his competitive gaming.

He's read the Wizard guides out there and has a provisional preference for Conjuration School, but not necessarily to be a summoning machine.

So I'm looking for feats, archetypes, traits, spells, strategy and general advice. Which is a lot to ask, so thanks in advance.

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The o.p.'s list and justifications notwithstanding, to introduce monetization into a group whose very lives depend on adding their skills, powers, spells, etc. is a dreadful idea. As others have noted, it would inspire each individual to want to charge for their particular service.

The Bard going, "Hey! I just helped you with my Lingering Performance. My accountant/lawyer says you me 39.32 gold for that."

I shudder to think what bills the Cleric would draw up- particularly if drafted under duress.

It would be in the enlightened self-interest of the item creator to want to have the toughest, well-equipped gang surround him.

A nation of shopkeepers is unappealing enough, but an adventuring party of shopkeepers?

Thanks. That sounds like an airtight, so to speak, argument for water breathing.

As for particularly useful spells, Haste looks great. Keep those suggestions coming, please.

Let's assume that we have water breathing and a swim speed arranged for the party already. Spells under consideration would be 5th Level or lower.

Our intrepid Wizard can't cast spells with a Verbal component. So how do we fix that? I think Necklace of Adaptation might:

Description of item:
"The magic of the necklace wraps the wearer in a shell of fresh air, making him immune to all harmful vapors and gases (such as cloudkill and stinking cloud effects, as well as inhaled poisons) and allowing him to breathe, even underwater or in a vacuum."

How do we satisfy verbal component for spells under water? Even if the Necklace of Adaptation does, at 9,000 gold it's pricey.

Also, what are particularly good spells under water? For example, Fireball would be awful, but Magic Missile is pretty good. Summoning is cool, but that uses Verbal components.

As a (currently 9th level) Infernal Binder I get an Imp as a familiar at 7th level. It has Charisma of 14. I want it to use wands I craft to cast spells that I would know. I assume it needs Use Magic Device to do so(?). If so, does it use my skill ranks? Does it get skill ranks of its own?

I don't plan to put any ranks in UMD for myself, but if I do is that an option?

Obviously Druids are superb with wildshape in handling aquatic settings. Having played them to death, I'm looking for other ideas so let's exclude them please.

Starting at level 6 going to about level 11. Point buy @ 20. Pathfinder published including campaigns, but no homebrew races for PCs (anyway I'd like to focus on Class rather than race here).

We will be mostly in a land based environment, but will have significant time and challenges with aquatic settings. Four PCs.

So what do you wizards out there recommend?

Thanks all for the advice.

Since one of the few drawbacks of a Bard/Paladin build is feat starvation, I think I'll go with two-handed fighter with a little Strength and power attack. Then I can go with Bard feats like lingering performance and (grand/)master performance.

As we start at first level, I'll check the thread if anyone has further insights.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
...Do you just want to be up front and fighting, buffing, and dealing damage?

Yes. Paladin allows some secondary healing as well. As for armor, I'll be proficient as Paladin. Therefore some mithral medium armor should do just fine. Still, the Dex based route with Swashbuckler dip looks great. The delay to all good things Paladin has me on the fence, though.

EDIT = Among the very cool things Arcane Duelist brings, there's medium armor casting with no casting interference at tenth level!

nate lange wrote:
Bard/paladin is one of my favorite gestalt builds (and maybe one of the best all around). Full BAB, 6+ Int skills, all good saves plus divine grace, great Cha synergy, swift lay hands for crazy survivability, and 6 level arcane plus 4 level divine casting... what's not to like? The only real downside is they're kind of feat starved

Perhaps I should have made explicit my assumptions about what Paladin offers. Thanks for making it so clear.

Regarding the "two-hammer" build: did you mean two-handed? or two weapon in two hands?

Thanks all for the input.

The lack of BAB turns me off to Oracle. I'd have to look at Ninja, but I suspect the same drawback.

Swashbuckler sounds intriguing.

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