Owner - D20 Hobbies
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In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?
I've done the caster route once, because I wanted/needed to double my effective wealth by level. I made items for others at cost.
I've had one player try to request we pay him retail for crafted items. The entire table said no after learning he wasn't joking.
There may be a value below 100% retail and above 50% cost that I (and others)might accept. I'd take the discount but I wouldn't be happy with the player charging me extra beyond his cost.it isn't like the PC is doing work, the PC is just saying to GM "my character makes the item" and he's done. So anything above cost seems unfair, inappropriate, gouging, and wrong.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Huh? I charge my family and friends the same amount for my services as I do everyone else. I do give discounts on occasion, but it's usually not solely on the basis that they are a family or a friend.You can't equate real life to the game, because by game terms you are charging your family more than what you charge everyone else.
You also have time to take the photos and experience in training. In Pathfinder, there is no time spent "GM I make it" and no experience "Write Craft Wondrous Item on character sheet."
Huh? I charge my family the same amount for my services. I do give discounts on occasion, but it's usually not on the basis that they are a family or a friend alone.You can't equate real life to the game, because by game terms you are charging your family more than what you charge everyone else.
LOL The market price for magic items is 50% and the friend price is 60% so you AREN'T charging the same but charging more.
I'm a graphic designer and photographer by profession.
Ok, lets say you can sell photo's got $50, even though the retail price is $100. Asking family to pay you $60 for a photo isn't s discount on your services, but a 10% increase. Your services aren't that of a retail store but those of a producer. Retail vs wholesale.
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I'm a graphic designer and photographer by profession. I went to college for several years to be good enough to make a living off of it.
Now, years later, some of my family and friends still scoff at the very notion that I might charge them for various projects--and that's fine. Not having to deal with them about such matters allows me more time to MAKE A LIVING.
I see no reason why this wouldn't also be true in-game for characters who trained and invested in the ability to craft magical items. That training means something. You SHOULD get paid for it.
You wouldn't ask an engineer to design a bridge or a doctor to replace a malfunctioning heart for free. If you did, it wouldn't be long before we didn't have have bridges or heart transplants. The engineers and doctors would have all starved to death without compensation, and no one would replace them because who wants to work hard for free? NO ONE WITH ANY SENSE.
If a company sought you out for your skills than they would pay you. If you worked on the company payroll and demanded a bonus for doing what you were hired to do the company would fire you.
If Fighter needed a curse lifted and had to go to town to find a cleric, that cleric gets paid. If Fighter needs a curse lifted and turns to Cleric next to him at the table and is told to pay extra for it than Cleric needs to sleep with an eye open.
Crafter presumably gets a full share of party treasure for being a contributing member of the party. If Crafter spent feats on crafting instead of summoning, Crafter still gets that same full share. If Crafter demands extra pay on top of their share of treasure because they craft than Summoner puts imps in Crafter's bedroll every night.
Yes, a party would have to be careful to be fair to one another, and not price gouge those who need a given service.
Saying "Pay me twice the normal fair or I won't cure you" when someone is dying is TOTALLY different from saying "My cures cost X" at the onset.
The latter scenario is totally fine, whereas the latter is not. Ultimately it will come down to what the party is comfortable with (in-game and out).
If a cleric gave advanced notice, and said fighter still uppity when he had to pay up, and started stooping to such childish pranks as imping the caster at night--then it's the fighter who is being disruptive, not the cleric.
And that's as far as I'm going to take that line of discussion. I don't see how it helps the thread topic (which is on the balance implications) to debate it further.
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Crafter presumably gets a full share of party treasure for being a contributing member of the party. If Crafter spent feats on crafting instead of summoning, Crafter still gets that same full share. If Crafter demands extra pay on top of their share of treasure because they craft than Summoner puts imps in Crafter's bedroll every night.
Except they are not asking for extra gold or share of the treasure.
They are asking you to pay for an item you were going to buy at full price anyways, while still giving you the fair share of the loot.
If it causes an Issue I'll just keep the feat to myself and you can go find a merchant and pay 100% for the item OR MORE if the GM is like that.
While the crafter (if he takes Spark of Creation) can craft for 45% value and with a good diplo sell at 60% making a sweet 15% profit each item and making their own items.
And when you don't have unlimited downtime? When the party are doing other things during those 8 hours?Where I'm personally hung up is the argument that the crafter's labor is somehow worth considering. I mean, in the real world this makes perfect sense, but in game? Your "labor" takes place in the downtime (where by definition nothing of import happens) that's resolved in about 5 seconds by the GM saying "you put in your 8 hours" if that followed by maybe a d20 roll. Not exactly great sacrifices being made here...Yeah, I'm finding that a bit funny too. Nobody's livelihood is bound up in this at all. It strikes me that the debate comes more down to personal political beliefs than anything really important from a game perspective.
I think a reasonably equitable arrangement can be reached without really making a big deal out of the money. The games I play in have always managed to make it work without charging anything more than cost (and that included 3e when XPs were part of the cost). In fact, the crafters have usually been pretty keen to make stuff for everyone because it meant we were converting stuff for 1:1 value rather than 2:1.
You also have time to take the photos and experience in training. In Pathfinder, there is no time spent "GM I make it" and no experience "Write Craft Wondrous Item on character sheet."
That's true of the players, sure, but not to the characters themselves. The character spent YEARS learning how to do that. Why then should the character be expected to act like he didn't?
That's metagaming most foul in order to take advantage of the crafter.
Of no use to anyone:
Trying a formatting thing as an excuse to be pithy.
EDIT WOOT, it worked, I learned a new useless thing :)
Except, as we keep pointing out, you can't get paid for it. You're a PC. You can't MAKE A LIVING by crafting. You can't sell above cost*, precisely as a game balance mechanism to keep characters from breaking the intended WBL guidelines.
The only way to turn a profit on crafting as a PC is to sell to other PCs, since the rules don't bind them.
*There are a couple abilities you can invest to get a few percent above cost.
You can totally sell an item at full market value. You might have to retire from adventuring to do it, but it's still an option.
The rules for selling items are simplified to expedite gameplay and to represent the fact that your adventurer is very likely trying to offload his treasures quickly and without many questions.
This should have absolutely no effect on how the world and characters therein (PC or NPC) perceive things within the game.
Years? Hardly. Unless you're talking about scrolls or alch potions, any magic item creation feat is spontaneously gained in the nebulous split seconds of level ups.
And yet the starting age for many casters are MUCH higher than others. That's to represent those years of training that lay the foundation necessary to even be able to take the crafting feats.
And sure, a sorcerer could do it at a young age, but they don't get bonus crafting feats like a wizard can so there's a clear in-game mechanical indicator that years of training ultimately makes for a better crafter.
Except, as we keep pointing out, you can't get paid for it. You're a PC. You can't MAKE A LIVING by crafting. You can't sell above cost*, precisely as a game balance mechanism to keep characters from breaking the intended WBL guidelines.
The only way to turn a profit on crafting as a PC is to sell to other PCs, since the rules don't bind them.
*There are a couple abilities you can invest to get a few percent above cost.
You can totally sell an item at full market value. You might have to retire from adventuring to do it, but it's still an option.
The rules for selling items are simplified to expedite gameplay and to represent the fact that your adventurer is very likely trying to offload his treasures quickly and without many questions.
This should have absolutely no effect on how the world and characters therein (PC or NPC) perceive things within the game.
Let's not Forget RD...you can always buy a shop and pay a shopkeeper to sell your crafted items at full price too. Might take a while for an item to get sold. Might only end up with 90% value due to paying the shopkeepers salary but hey it IS an option.
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Ravingdork,
I am not sure you saw my point. The Crafter is a part of the party, the company if you will, their role in the company/party is to provide their services. If they need tools to provide the services than the company should see to it that those tools are available. And Crafter should expect full and equal pay for what they provide. Asking for the cost of tools plus a bonus on top of what is already full and equal pay is not fair or equal. Yes it would cost more to go outside of the company to get the thing, luckily we have Crafter so we dont need to pay those extra costs. The arguments i am seeing for Crafter charging more than cost is that Crafter is a separate company from the Party Company and see Party Company as a Customer of theirs. Sure Crafter is under cutting the competition but that is for Crafter and the local guilds to figure out, either way Crafter is not acting like an employee so why should Crafter get loot shares?
The time cost is a non thing, in game context or out of game since out of game it doesnt exist and in game if they would rather use the down time to craft and sell at crafting price then... well thats just weird but they can. Its down time so they wouldnt use that time to advance the plot so... you spend a few seconds to say you go party at the bar instead of making that magic item?
did they join as crafters or did they join as an adventurer who later took up the role of a crafter in his downtime? Cause most crafters contribute heavily to the party in other ways. Considering the magic item crafters tend to be Casters.
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Ravingdork,
I am not sure you saw my point. The Crafter is a part of the party, the company if you will, their role in the company/party is to provide their services. If they need tools to provide the services than the company should see to it that those tools are available. And Crafter should expect full and equal pay for what they provide. Asking for the cost of tools plus a bonus on top of what is already full and equal pay is not fair or equal. Yes it would cost more to go outside of the company to get the thing, luckily we have Crafter so we dont need to pay those extra costs. The arguments i am seeing for Crafter charging more than cost is that Crafter is a separate company from the Party Company and see Party Company as a Customer of theirs. Sure Crafter is under cutting the competition but that is for Crafter and the local guilds to figure out, either way Crafter is not acting like an employee so why should Crafter get loot shares?
The time cost is a non thing, in game context or out of game since out of game it doesnt exist and in game if they would rather use the down time to craft and sell at crafting price then... well thats just weird but they can. Its down time so they wouldnt use that time to advance the plot so... you spend a few seconds to say you go party at the bar instead of making that magic item?
I don't believe I missed anything. Typically when a company wants to hire someone they say "We'd like to hire you." (Usually after an auditioning process of some kind.) Then, the person who wants the job negotiates payment for their services until he moves on to better opportunities, or until an agreement can be had.
If the new employee were to suddenly and unexpectedly demand more money a year later with no change in his quality of service, the company would rightfully be dismayed. If his quality of service had gone up, however, he could attempt to renegotiate his earnings (generally by asking, not demanding), at which point he can move on, or come to an agreement, as before.
The same is true of adventuring parties. The characters (in-game) and their players (out of game) come to a general agreement when the party is formed (or when the crafter joins). If any agreement cannot be made, then the character of the crafter goes off to adventure with another party who will do what he asks, while his player makes a different character that will better fit the party.
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That's because there's a difference between what you add to the party in-combat and what you can and choose to do optionally outside of combat.
MY Bard has dumped lots of feats and points into Diplomacy, which means she can buy and sell at a discount. Does this mean she should keep the difference for herself?
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]You're asking to be compensated just for doing your class, for stuff you might need to advance the story. A crafter isn't all of what said person doing the crafting does. That's an NPC, who charges 100% with no discount. The character capable of crafting doesn't have to craft in order to contribute to the party, it's just a nice little extra they get.
If you're only playing a class because you expect to get paid for it and not because it's what you want to play my suggestion would be don't play that class, play something you enjoy.
right.
So, Ok, everything done during combat between party members is free, but during downtime, you can charge?
So then when the cleric charges the wizard for after battle condition removal and healing, that's OK?
Raise Dead- not unless you pay me a fee over what it costs. I call it a "discount".
Remove Blindness? Hand over that gold bubbah- only 70% of prevailing NPC rates, that's a "discount".
So we're basically back to "I'm the caster, I deserve more money".
Again, from a metagame perspective, I'm going to be annoyed if someone already playing a top tier class is arranging that they also get more money to improve their gear than I do.
Of course, I come from a gaming style that doesn't really focus on the loot, generally just treats things as party treasure and hands them out and funds purchases on a "most useful/needed" basis rather than on a strict division of shares. This whole idea is completely foreign to me. Of course the crafter would make items for the party at cost, using party treasure to do so. We're all cooperating to stay alive.Frankly, this whole discussion just makes me want to ban crafting entirely.
Well, there's not a lot anyone can do about how you FEEL. That's why it's important for a party of players to communicate about these things and come to a mutual agreement well in advance.
I don't need you to agree to my interpretation of things, but I do hope you can at least see where I'm coming from, just as I can understand (but not necessarily agree with) your concerns about feeling cheated by someone who you already consider top-tier.
If we were to ever play together, and crafting wasn't banned, I probably would craft things at cost, despite my feeling son the subject, because I recognize that everyone having fun is much more important than my making a point.
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So for a matter of "rightful payment" the crafter is deliberately limiting the survivability of his party?
Does he really have so little self-preservation?
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Also, if it doesn't matter where you go in-game because you will always pay 100% of the market price, and the party crafter makes it for you 75% of the market price, you DID GET A DISCOUNT. That's indisputable. You saved money versus literally going anywhere else in the world. That's the very definition of a getting a discount.
It's true that, mechanically speaking, the crafter can't make a living off of selling his items while adventuring, but that's a different issue entirely (and actually, with downtime rules and feats and traits that give additional discounts, this is actually very possible).
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[
Except they are not asking for extra gold or share of the treasure.They are asking you to pay for an item you were going to buy at full price anyways, while still giving you the fair share of the loot.
If it causes an Issue I'll just keep the feat to myself and you can go find a merchant and pay 100% for the item OR MORE if the GM is like that.
While the crafter (if he takes Spark of Creation) can craft for 45% value and with a good diplo sell at 60% making a sweet 15% profit each item and making their own items.
My cleric is not asking for extra gold or share of the treasure.
I am asking you to pay for a spell you were going to buy at full price anyways, while still giving you the fair share of the loot.
If it causes an Issue I'll just keep the spell to myself and you can go find a temple and pay 100% for the spell OR MORE if the GM is like that.
I can't read this anymore I'm afraid, but I have one last comment.
Your mythical employee is perfectly reasonable to ask for raises.
He is not reasonable in demanding that the company pay him what the company charges its customers for his services.
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Perhaps, but the WBL effect is real. In the OP full price, if the party has 4 members and 60k.3 Guys have 15k of items each
1 Guy (the crafter) has 75k of items (15+7.5+7.5+7.5)x2=75k25% Discount
3 Guys have 15k/.75=20k
1 Guy has 60k of items (15+5+5+5)x2=60k40% Discount
3 Guys have 15k/.6=25k
1 Guy has 45k of items (15+2.5+2.5+2.5)x2=45k
So what? The final result is a lot of downtime being used up, 3/4 of the party now have +1 items, and the guy who spent one or more feats on crafting now has +2 items (or +3 items, at best, if he really invested a lot of resources and abused the downtime rules). +2 items which are balanced against the rest of the party because THEY SPENT THEIR FEATS ON OTHER THINGS.
I can't read this anymore I'm afraid, but I have one last comment.
Your mythical employee is perfectly reasonable to ask for raises.
He is not reasonable in demanding that the company pay him what the company charges its customers for his services.
I agree. Either the employee won't get his raise, or the company will have to charge customers more for his services. Both happen all the time. In the end it all comes down to the ART OF THE DEAL. ;D
And capturing half the party WBL (under the most ideal of circumstances, mind you) essentially nets him a +1 across the board over the other player characters.
That does indeed make it a very powerful feat, but hardly broken. It's not Leadership. *rolls eyes*
So the Company analogy falls apart since you can rightfully argue that you are hired for a single specific role, but in a party the default assumption (and if this is just my assumption that that is fine and i can bow out at this) is that the character gets a full share of loot for fully participating. Fully participating is using your resources for the good of the party. Maybe you are playing a core only rogue. That sucks but the player still gets a full share of XP and GP for doing what (pathetically little) their character could to help out. Crafter is trying to argue they get a full share plus extra because they provide more from their feat choices.
Though I don't necessarily agree with your stance, there is definitely enough ground there for you to make the argument--to your party.
As always, it's up to the group and whatever arrangement they are comfortable with.
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The whole idea of paying the crafter more than just the materials comes from the fact that, in the real world, the actual labor has it's own separate price. Buying an AC is one thing, installing it is another, so they have different prices.
However, in the game, unless your downtime is severely restricted in such a way that the decision is "I craft for my party mate" or "I do X cool thing", asking for more than the material price is being kind of a douche. You lose nothing, it's one d20 roll and you're set, end of. Charging your mates for that when you're not losing anything just breaks WBL harder than the crafting feats themselves.
Also, if it doesn't matter where you go in-game because you will always pay 100% of the market price, and the party crafter makes it for you 75% of the market price, you DID GET A DISCOUNT. That's indisputable. You saved money versus literally going anywhere else in the world. That's the very definition of a getting a discount.
It's true that, mechanically speaking, the crafter can't make a living off of selling his items while adventuring, but that's a different issue entirely (and actually, with downtime rules and feats and traits that give additional discounts, this is actually very possible).
What's also indisputable is that "literally going anywhere else in the world", the crafter sells his items for 50% of market value, and that selling to your party at 75% is a MARK UP. "That's indisputable" It's not "a different issue entirely" but the main issue; The crafter is trying to be a retailer when they are a wholesaler.
Again, If I go with your argument, how much should I charge for the free potions I make with Druidic Herbalism? 25% 50% 75? 100%?
Also, if it doesn't matter where you go in-game because you will always pay 100% of the market price, and the party crafter makes it for you 75% of the market price, you DID GET A DISCOUNT. That's indisputable. You saved money versus literally going anywhere else in the world. That's the very definition of a getting a discount.
It's true that, mechanically speaking, the crafter can't make a living off of selling his items while adventuring, but that's a different issue entirely (and actually, with downtime rules and feats and traits that give additional discounts, this is actually very possible).
What's also indisputable is that "literally going anywhere else in the world", the crafter sells his items for 50% of market value, and that selling to your party at 75% is a MARK UP. "That's indisputable" It's not "a different issue entirely" but the main issue; The crafter is trying to be a retailer when they are a wholesaler.
Again, If I go with your argument, how much should I charge for the free potions I make with Druidic Herbalism? 25% 50% 75? 100%?
no crafter sells things they make for the price it cost them to make. They would go out of business that way in like a day.
retailers upcharge because they make it convenient to buy things, but they still have to buy from the wholesaler whos charging for his work.
That applies for NPC's only. PC's are wholesalers, who only get 50% of the market price for their work. That's how the game works. The GAME has set the PC's time and effort at 0gp worth, not me. I'm expecting at least the same cost as some random NPC off the street not the 'family' discount that's an actual increase.
And I'll ask since you didn't say anything. How much are you paying for my druids free potions? Since you assume time and effort get a reward instead of the actual cost then free potions should be rewarded with cash right?
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PCs aren't in business. That's the whole point.
Last time I looked some Characters (PCs) become adventurers to make money...so basically they are self employed and their Business is Treasure hunting, monster hunting, ext ext. When your self employed you will find any ways to make money you can.
Everyone is right. :D
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If you are a retailer you are an NPC, not a party member. Party members make money by adventuring not by crafting. if you want to make money by crafting than you are playing a fantasy business simulator and are outside the scope of the Pathfinder rules.
Adventurers and retailers are both people you know (at least, within the context of the in-game world).
No one wants to get cheated. Everyone wants a fair deal. That's why communication is so important.
One party's fair deal might be totally different from another party's fair deal, which further emphasizes the importance of communication.
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I guess making the people who are supposed to avoid you death deliberately less equipped is a great idea
Basically I do agree with this, though I'd emphasize player level agreement and communication, rather than character. It's all about playstyle and what the group wants to do.
Sorry if I wasn't being clear. I'm stressing the importance of both in- and out-of-game agreement, not one over the other.
Three hundred posts in, and not one person (other than one of my previous comments, when I made a passing remark) has mentioned the fact that Ultimate Campaign does allow anyone to earn money. The fighter absolutely has the chance to establish an entire magic item store in his downtime, managing low-level wizards as they create tons of wands, potions, and talismans for other adventuring parties. With some work, they could establish an entire KINGDOM in their free time (especially a city-state), by founding a town somewhere advantageous, building a castle, and encouraging folks to move in.
But everyone saying that this is all about the wizard wanting to break WBL, if the caster was really in this to make money, he'd skip the whole "making magic items and sell them at a discount to your friends," and simply use his untold arcane powers to tear the very fabric of reality apart, that HE
An alchemy shop. Stocked with one of every alchemical item. Especially the expensive ones (they go up to 4,000 gp). Then, he takes eschew materials and spams full pouch repeatedly, selling his extra-powerful alchemical items across the multiverse, making thousands of gp for every spell slot he has of 2nd level or higher.
Look, the fact of the matter is, the wizard has better and easier ways to break WBL. This is about asking how valuable downtime is. And, with Ultimate Campaign, the answer is that it can be pretty valuable.
Three hundred posts in, and not one person (other than one of my previous comments, when I made a passing remark) has mentioned the fact that Ultimate Campaign does allow anyone to earn money. The fighter absolutely has the chance to establish an entire magic item store in his downtime, managing low-level wizards as they create tons of wands, potions, and talismans for other adventuring parties. With some work, they could establish an entire KINGDOM in their free time (especially a city-state), by founding a town somewhere advantageous, building a castle, and encouraging folks to move in.
Sure, there are other things to do during downtime, but as has been pointed out, livelihood really isn't at stake since, as an adventurer, the wizard is looting enough treasure that's he's got wealth beyond the dreams of normal people's avarice.
What's really at stake is a mechanic on hand that allows a group to, relatively efficiently, convert unwanted magic items into wanted ones.
Part of this debate reminds me of the debates the swirl around wizards and all of their narrative power compared to other PCs. Master Craftsman makes efforts to equalize that, but how many people here in this debate who support a wizard (or other spell caster) crafter charging more than cost for magic item creation also feel that wizards have too much power, particularly narrative power, in Pathfinder?
Personally, I don't sweat the issues of narrative power with casters in my games because I largely see them as party powers. Yes, it's the wizard and his astral spell that enables the party to travel to other planes astrally, but they do so as a group making it a game changer for the whole group. Teleport is much the same since there are very few instances I've encountered where the wizard's teleport spells aren't used to enable the whole party to travel. And that's usually how groups I've been in have used item creation. The wizard (or other caster) takes the feat and it benefits the whole group.
If the issue of a spell caster's narrative power relative to another PC's bothers you, maybe you need to start approaching some of their powers differently - including item creation feats.