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Anarchy_Kanya wrote: DrDeth wrote: Gray Warden wrote: Disclaimer 1: this is something I've been thinking for a long time, so this will be looooooong. Continue only if really interested.
Disclaimer 2: before you reply with random variations of "Pathfinder is a cooperative game", "There's no I in team" and "You greedy power-player!", I'd like to specify that this question arises from a MECHANICAL and BALANCE issue. Also, my personal opinion is that a discount should be applied, but in a rational way. So, please, let me explain.
Sure. 50GPs for a CLW, please.
1000 gps for having the fighter defend you, please.
10000 gps per trap disarmed, please. I'll pay by contributing with my spells. Haven't you heard, your spells are clearly less valuable because you did not spend feats on them :p
Really the next point of escalation is that the other characters refuse to adventure with you.
But come on, 10K for traps? Are these Mythic traps?
Can't you just summon a celestial/fiendish monkey to set off the trap, even if it resets, that gives you a few rounds to get through before it does.
Get Blood Money
Get Fabricate
Get Magic Jar
Tell your entitled party members if they don't want to pay with gold, they can...
PAY WITH THEIR BLOOD!!!
And then make sure you get just a little bit more for your own purposes.
But seriously, if you are going to end up crafting for them, it is also going to cut into your own downtime when you can better do things which benefit you, just as they will be doing things which will benefit themselves. If they aren't going to pay for the time, they might as well be buying it from the store, because you also have better and more important things to do with your time.
Also its quite dumb to consider them charging you for their services. Those are in very different situations. In an adventure, you are all going to need each other skills to complete it. Outside of an adventure, how are they even contributing to your crafting? It is easy to see the difference.
IMO this comes down to role-playing and some mechanical balancing.
Say for instance you are really good at painting and own your own painting company, and your best friend needs his house painted. You have 3 options. First you could charge him nothing and do the work for free at a cost to you because he is your best friend. Second you could charge him at a discount, which could be at a cost to you or him depending on the price of the discount. Third you could charge him full price, because event though you are my best friend I'm not made of money, and time is money. So what crafting character are you playing? Are you playing a really nice dude who will do this for free for his buds or at least at a discount, or are you a character that does not want to be taken advantage of.
To your point yes crafting feats to cause a disparity in power within a party between members, but there is a secondary use for the ability. That would be if you have decent downtime you could open your own traveling magic item dealer. This would allow you to make tons more money than you fellow adventures, but i also believe that this is not as good as a combat feat due to the fact that characters will be in combat, they may not necessarily get down time.
Snowlilly wrote: Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: ChaiGuy wrote: Snowlilly wrote: Knight Magenta wrote: Say you are running an AP and the wizard is doubling everyone's wealth-by-level. How to you reduce loot? Do you rework everything? What if most loot comes from NPC equipment? Does that mean that crafting feats also make enemy NPCs weaker? Or are quest rewards suddenly lower?
And tell me seriously, is there any character on which you wouldn't take a feat that said "you gain 25% more wealth!"
If you want to follow this rule, just have each crafting feat give you a pool of GP equal to X% of WBL to craft with. Done. No working for free and everyone knows what the feat does. Though its not very simulationist.
I do run APs and I do have characters with item creation feats.
Starting around 6th or 7th level time constraints start acting as the limiting factor on item creation. By 10th level, it can take weeks, or even a month or more, to craft a single item. That is more time than it typically takes in-game to run through an entire book. The characters with item creation feats are too busy agonizing over what they can craft with their own limited time to worry about crafting for other party members.
** spoiler omitted ** Munchkins v2.0: Don't take any item creation feats, at level 7 take the leadership feat (when available) have a crafter cohort, profit. :P That doesn't really change things if downtime is on the premium. If your campaign is fast-paced, even your cohorts only have limited time. Simulcrums and cohorts get 8 hour crafting days while your off adventuring and, with numbers, can work on many items simultaneously. Not a help if the campaign is fast paced. Not a help if the days don't exist. Not every campaign is Kingmaker, which wasn't even created for Pathfinder. And certainly not a help with the limitations I impose on simulacra.
But none of this germane to the OP's question. And my answer is these things are group dynamics questions, not rules nor game mechanics. IF your group is willing to put up with you profiting off of them, all the power to you. Just remember that things go both ways. You're dependent upon them as well.
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I think that this has come down to "my build is better then your build, pay me for it!"
Either every character is equal, and they should all contribute to the party to the best of their ability, or characters that are more useful get a larger share. You can think of it as converting loot into items before the loot is split if that helps.
Just be ready for the RAGE LANCE POUNCE player to tell you that he does not need your spells in most fights because he can't miss. Or for the Summoner to tell everyone that you are his sidekicks, and his eidolon deserves a share of the loot because it is stronger then the fighter.
I dont think there are any more points to be made on the topic but i will at least add my opinion as others have said. There is no balance reason to change the price for other PCs and in game the characters can work that out as they see fit (perhaps the meat shields will only intervene to save the crafter's life after the crafter has lost 75% of their health?) If you allow a caster to get crafting feats than that character is choosing to forgo other potentially more powerful single character options to instead grant customized and far more permanent buffs to the whole party, basically they decided on an arcchetype that trades out more powerful spells for better than Bard abilities. That is a choice the Crafter made.
Would you be ok with a Cleric demanding payment for buffs or healing? After all the player could have used those spell slots for something that would be more directly beneficial to the player. Likewise would you allow the bard to charge the party for every performance they benefited from?
A better way of approaching the same goal would be the crafter talking the party into letting them have a larger share of money earned to allow them to craft better gear or that when they have the funds to upgrade or create new items the crafter has first dibs since they have otherwise chosen to give up personal power for the ability to make things? Even then i would suggest that CWI and making half priced stat boosters are already about the best choices you can make for a PC, especially if you know you will have the downtime to use them or if you cant be sure you will have access to exactly everything you want from the local magic-mart.
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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
VonKillingston wrote: IMO this comes down to role-playing and some mechanical balancing.
Say for instance you are really good at painting and own your own painting company, and your best friend needs his house painted. You have 3 options. First you could charge him nothing and do the work for free at a cost to you because he is your best friend. Second you could charge him at a discount, which could be at a cost to you or him depending on the price of the discount. Third you could charge him full price, because event though you are my best friend I'm not made of money, and time is money. So what crafting character are you playing? Are you playing a really nice dude who will do this for free for his buds or at least at a discount, or are you a character that does not want to be taken advantage of.
To your point yes crafting feats to cause a disparity in power within a party between members, but there is a secondary use for the ability. That would be if you have decent downtime you could open your own traveling magic item dealer. This would allow you to make tons more money than you fellow adventures, but i also believe that this is not as good as a combat feat due to the fact that characters will be in combat, they may not necessarily get down time.
Some points:
1) The default assumption for party crafting is 'at cost', not 'for free'--the person being crafted for provides precisely the funds required to make the item, so there is no monetary cost to the crafter as you suggest.
2) It's actually all but impossible per RAW for a PC crafter to be a travelling magic item dealer--a PC crafts an item by spending 50% of what it would cost to buy it retail, and sells it for precisely the same amount. There's a few rules here and there that futz with the cost of crafting and thus would allow for a marginal profit, but on the whole, there's simply not the same sense of opportunity cost where painting a friend's house at cost would cost the painting business the opportunity to work more profitable jobs.
3) Analogies to business owners offering a discount to friends further miss the point that the PC crafter is part of a team, where his crafting is directly helping the team function better, make more money collectively, and *keep him alive*, which rather dilutes the idea that he's being taken advantage of. A better analogy might be, say, that instead of a friend, the customer is one of your own franchise branches, which needs a new coat of paint to continue doing business. Doesn't seem to me that it makes sense to charge more than an at-cost rate for that work.
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: Not a help if the campaign is fast paced. Not a help if the days don't exist. Not every campaign is Kingmaker, which wasn't even created for Pathfinder. And certainly not a help with the limitations I impose on simulacra.
But none of this germane to the OP's question. And my answer is these things are group dynamics questions, not rules nor game mechanics. IF your group is willing to put up with you profiting off of them, all the power to you. Just remember that things go both ways. You're dependent upon them as well.
I agree with this point, Drahliana. The biggest limiting factor for crafting is time - that's part of the reason the party can't expect the guy with the crafting feats to craft for everyone. Anytime I've played a crafter, I craft for myself first, then use excess time to craft for the party. Even with a valet familiar and crafting while adventuring (you can accomplish 2 hours of crafting on an adventuring day), there just isn't time to take care of everything.
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Not a help if the campaign is fast paced. Not a help if the days don't exist. Not every campaign is Kingmaker, which wasn't even created for Pathfinder. And certainly not a help with the limitations I impose on simulacra.
But none of this germane to the OP's question. And my answer is these things are group dynamics questions, not rules nor game mechanics. IF your group is willing to put up with you profiting off of them, all the power to you. Just remember that things go both ways. You're dependent upon them as well.
Kingmaker was written explicitly for pathfinder, yes. The cut-off point is Second Darkness. Your homebrew is your homebrew - the rest of us really can't be expected to take it into account when discussing the rules.
You got the second part down to pat though. ^^
Personally, if I were in a group with a wizard who charged full price, I'd do my best to always buy items elsewhere, even if I couldn't find the exact pieces of gear I wanted.
Gulthor has a very valid point too. There's usually not that much crafting time to go around.
Knight Magenta wrote: I think that this has come down to "my build is better then your build, pay me for it!" This is something that only you and a couple of other people have thought, despite having been said repeatedly that it has NEVER been the point of the thread. I agree that measuring the contribution of different characters is nonsensical, that's why I've never tried to do so.
So, could you please just stop using this to support you argument? It's getting boring.
Moreover, you still continue comparing a lesser discount to an extra charge. If I had to play with someone like you, I would have just give up instantly and played a Juju Oracle instead. In this way, I would have had my minions for (almost) free, despite being a bit unsatisfied since I don't like undeads, and everybody would have paid full price for anything anyway.
Apparently, you (generic) prefer this to getting a 25% discount on everything and letting me play what I like.
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Honestly, charging for crafting comes off as an extremely selfish move in a game that's supposed to be about the team. It's hoarding wealth - similar to when a rogue sneaks ahead and scouts, stealing stuff on the way that they don't pool into the shared loot.
Especially since the item crafting classes are already the strongest in the game, and your explicit goal is to end up with more wealth than would normally be your 'fair share', so you can afford building your creatures early enough for it to be convenient.
It's not outside the realm of RP to charge money from your teammates. It's also not outside the realm of RP for the rogue to hide loot he finds on the sly. You're just being kind of a douchebag in either case.
Your argument, as far as I can tell, relies on the opportunity cost of the feat slot that you don't have because you took craft wondrous items to make it "fair" that you pocket 25% of the market value.
Frankly, that's a little bit ridiculous.
Having 25% of the value of all items you craft as "extra gold" far, far, far eclipses the benefit of any particular feat that isn't Leadership or Sacred Geometry.
One of your comments in particular suggests that a character who took a crafting feat would be "left behind", compared to his non-crafting associates who reap the benefit of the crafting without possessing the feat themselves.
This is absurd for a couple reasons.
1) Feats, while good, have relatively little impact on the efficiency of the common spellcaster. Not nearly enough that you could tell a wizard with craft wondrous items from one with Spell Focus: Conjuration in combat.
2) Spellcasters (the most common crafters) are already way ahead of the noncasters when it comes to power.
3) Crafting time is usually limited. To craft using raw materials equal to half a 4man's party's wealth by level would take 324days, just shy of an entire year. You don't get that much downtime in most games.
Guess who the crafter is going to spend most of his limited time crafting for? That's right, himself. Therefore, crafting feats already naturally tends towards benefitting the crafter more than his party members.
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Wow, charging for your free time is stealing. Good to know.
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Rysky wrote: Wow, charging for your free time is stealing. Good to know. Lolno, of course not. But the rogue isn't stealing from you either. He's stealing from the enemy.
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Ierox wrote: Rysky wrote: Wow, charging for your free time is stealing. Good to know. Lolno, of course not. But the rogue isn't stealing from you either. He's stealing from the enemy. That is the general claim made by those defending the practice.
The whole point of both is "How can I get more wealth than the rest of the party?"
The outcome in both cases is the same, one PC has more money, more gear than the others.
Subverting what is essentially a second experience track.
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thejeff wrote: Ierox wrote: Rysky wrote: Wow, charging for your free time is stealing. Good to know. Lolno, of course not. But the rogue isn't stealing from you either. He's stealing from the enemy. That is the general claim made by those defending the practice.
The whole point of both is "How can I get more wealth than the rest of the party?"
The outcome in both cases is the same, one PC has more money, more gear than the others.
Subverting what is essentially a second experience track. Precisely. That's why I think the two are equivalent.
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I just see a bunch of people complaining about getting a 40% discount.
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Rysky wrote: I just see a bunch of people complaining about getting a 40% discount. I suppose you see what you want to see, then.
Knight Magenta wrote: Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: The balancing factor is that generally you don't have infinite downtime in a campaign. Crafting items takes time, and you have to prioritize what you're going to craft. In theory, yes. In Kingmaker, no :)
If you are playing an AP, it is possible that you will have time pressure from level 1 to 20. But in many custom campaigns it is quite likely that you will have time between one adventure and the next. Especially in more sand-box style campaigns. Another balancing factor is not every bit of wealth comes in as cash. Given unlimited time and starting with a cash value, a crafter could come into a game well over WBL. But a lot of the wealth gathered within a game is in magic items, not cash. In those cases, the item creation feats really don't distort character wealth any more than putting found items to use rather than selling the. WBL allows that wealth to be preserved rather than ablated through selling things at 50% market value.
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Ierox wrote: Rysky wrote: Wow, charging for your free time is stealing. Good to know. Lolno, of course not. But the rogue isn't stealing from you either. He's stealing from the enemy. Rogues do not have to be stealing bastards. Rogue does not equal thief. Rogue actually means a Dishonest or Unprincipled Person.
This seems to be a Glass Half Full or Half Empty kind of topic.
Some think you are "Charging" and taking advantage off team mates by offering them a less than Market price.
Others feel you are "Giving" them a Discount.
I feel it is a discount as Paying 99% on an item instead of 100% is still a discount. So asking for money for your Down time does not seem bad.
is it fair to not value weeks of a persons time and demand they not ask you for anything in return? Crafting items takes 4-8 hours a day and depending on cost of the item takes Days, weeks, or months.
IMHO just because a person takes a Craft feat/skill does not Obligate them to do anything for you or anyone else. Team game or not. If they offer you a discount on items you want that is nice of them...if not go back and pay your full price on the market. I am not Stealing your gold in any sense...I am offering you a chance to get more out of your gold.
But that is a Glass half full look at it.
OOC - Since we're not considering crafting time: I get the exact items I want and half the gold stays in the party. That's stealing.
In my group, our parties often don't have personal wealth, though - only our personal belongings and some pocket-change. It's often just one or two guys carrying all the collective treasure and gold in a bag of holding (often the appraiser/the guy who can sell the stuff).
But if we did split our economy, I still wouldn't see a problem with charging a bit extra. But (as Tri Omega Zero said on the first page) if he charges the party, he should also be okay with the party charging him for other services.
The real issue, however, comes with the presentation of this - A greedy a&$$%%$ won't have friends for long and isn't suitable for a party.
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Gray Warden wrote: Knight Magenta wrote: I think that this has come down to "my build is better then your build, pay me for it!" This is something that only you and a couple of other people have thought, despite having been said repeatedly that it has NEVER been the point of the thread. I agree that measuring the contribution of different characters is nonsensical, that's why I've never tried to do so.
So, could you please just stop using this to support you argument? It's getting boring.
Moreover, you still continue comparing a lesser discount to an extra charge. If I had to play with someone like you, I would have just give up instantly and played a Juju Oracle instead. In this way, I would have had my minions for (almost) free, despite being a bit unsatisfied since I don't like undeads, and everybody would have paid full price for anything anyway.
Apparently, you (generic) prefer this to getting a 25% discount on everything and letting me play what I like. In my mind, an adventuring party is never "off the clock." They may have time when they are relaxing, but there is not really any "personal" time when death-god cultists may try to kill you in your sleep.
To that end, I would expect every member of the party to contribute all of their skills to the best of their ability. That means that if you can craft at 45% price, then you must craft at 45% price. That is your expected contribution, so any larger cost is a charge.
In our campaigns, our party is never "off." For example, we set watches while sleeping in inns. We walk around town in pairs, because otherwise someone would die. We make enemies that don't have "off" time. In our game, the fighter would be guarding you while you work because otherwise your clone who hates you may try to kill you and replace you.
Rub-Eta wrote: OOC - Since we're not considering crafting time: I get the exact items I want and half the gold stays in the party. That's stealing.
No Stealing is:
Take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.
Your not doing it without Permission. They have a choice...Go to market and pay 100% for an Item or Befriend you and get a discount and have more money to spend on other things.
This opens up negotiations as well. "Hey I won't give you 65% of the item...I will give you 50% but I will go out and find you woman for your evening and do other things for you while you craft for me." Haggling is a thing and can be done PC to PC.
Bill Dunn wrote: Knight Magenta wrote: Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: The balancing factor is that generally you don't have infinite downtime in a campaign. Crafting items takes time, and you have to prioritize what you're going to craft. In theory, yes. In Kingmaker, no :)
If you are playing an AP, it is possible that you will have time pressure from level 1 to 20. But in many custom campaigns it is quite likely that you will have time between one adventure and the next. Especially in more sand-box style campaigns. Another balancing factor is not every bit of wealth comes in as cash. Given unlimited time and starting with a cash value, a crafter could come into a game well over WBL. But a lot of the wealth gathered within a game is in magic items, not cash. In those cases, the item creation feats really don't distort character wealth any more than putting found items to use rather than selling the. WBL allows that wealth to be preserved rather than ablated through selling things at 50% market value. Yes, one way to balance this out would be for the GM to let the party find items the non-crafting players want as loot. That would help keep the WBL on par.
Otherwise you wind up with the crafter having the exact items they want while the other characters make do with less useful stuff they find or buy from the crafter and increase the imbalance in WBL between party members.
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Louise Bishop wrote: Rub-Eta wrote: OOC - Since we're not considering crafting time: I get the exact items I want and half the gold stays in the party. That's stealing.
No Stealing is:
Take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.
Your not doing it without Permission. They have a choice...Go to market and pay 100% for an Item or Befriend you and get a discount and have more money to spend on other things.
This opens up negotiations as well. "Hey I won't give you 65% of the item...I will give you 50% but I will go out and find you woman for your evening and do other things for you while you craft for me." Haggling is a thing and can be done PC to PC. Out of character, WBL is a metagame balance construct - essentially another xp track.
This approach distorts that balance, boosting an already powerful character beyond even the impressive boost he gets by getting the items they want at half cost by draining funds from the other characters to increase his own wealth even further.
No, it's not stealing, but it has the same effect on the game.
thejeff wrote: Louise Bishop wrote: Rub-Eta wrote: OOC - Since we're not considering crafting time: I get the exact items I want and half the gold stays in the party. That's stealing.
No Stealing is:
Take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.
Your not doing it without Permission. They have a choice...Go to market and pay 100% for an Item or Befriend you and get a discount and have more money to spend on other things.
This opens up negotiations as well. "Hey I won't give you 65% of the item...I will give you 50% but I will go out and find you woman for your evening and do other things for you while you craft for me." Haggling is a thing and can be done PC to PC. Out of character, WBL is a metagame balance construct - essentially another xp track.
This approach distorts that balance, boosting an already powerful character beyond even the impressive boost he gets by getting the items they want at half cost by draining funds from the other characters to increase his own wealth even further.
No, it's not stealing, but it has the same effect on the game. WBL is 1,000gp per person so for the Level the DM drops 4,000gp worth of loot for a party of 4. What the party does with the 4k and how it is divided up is up to the party (PCs).
ANY crafting feat will effect the WBL...so if that is your argument then Crafting feats should be banned. If not then I do not see a problem.
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Gray Warden wrote: Knight Magenta wrote: I think that this has come down to "my build is better then your build, pay me for it!" This is something that only you and a couple of other people have thought, despite having been said repeatedly that it has NEVER been the point of the thread. I agree that measuring the contribution of different characters is nonsensical, that's why I've never tried to do so.
So, could you please just stop using this to support you argument? It's getting boring.
Moreover, you still continue comparing a lesser discount to an extra charge. If I had to play with someone like you, I would have just give up instantly and played a Juju Oracle instead. In this way, I would have had my minions for (almost) free, despite being a bit unsatisfied since I don't like undeads, and everybody would have paid full price for anything anyway.
Apparently, you (generic) prefer this to getting a 25% discount on everything and letting me play what I like. But that is a part of it. you are saying you will play a character that could be a huge benefit to both your PC and the party but you will only do it if everyone tithes to the church of you. Yes, to get every crafting feat you have to a pay a lot of feats. But you are also benefiting from those feats just as much as everyone else. Maybe you don't get much out of Arms and Armor, great, that is one tax you pay to give your allies boosts to make them better at keeping you alive and that is a choice you made to do. To say they owe you for CWI or rings or potions when you yourself will be making and using those things is insulting.
So in the end, if i was in a party with you i would follow your model and charge you a fee for every combat in which i took action or anytime i had to roll a skill that benefited you. My PC may have benefited also but i could have let you fail on your own and you owe me for helping you out. The feats, race and class i chose that let me participate could have been invested elsewhere for a more selfish build and you owe me gold for that.
This is the actual argument i am getting out of your stance.
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Louise Bishop wrote: thejeff wrote: Louise Bishop wrote: Rub-Eta wrote: OOC - Since we're not considering crafting time: I get the exact items I want and half the gold stays in the party. That's stealing.
No Stealing is:
Take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.
Your not doing it without Permission. They have a choice...Go to market and pay 100% for an Item or Befriend you and get a discount and have more money to spend on other things.
This opens up negotiations as well. "Hey I won't give you 65% of the item...I will give you 50% but I will go out and find you woman for your evening and do other things for you while you craft for me." Haggling is a thing and can be done PC to PC. Out of character, WBL is a metagame balance construct - essentially another xp track.
This approach distorts that balance, boosting an already powerful character beyond even the impressive boost he gets by getting the items they want at half cost by draining funds from the other characters to increase his own wealth even further.
No, it's not stealing, but it has the same effect on the game. WBL is 1,000gp per person so for the Level the DM drops 4,000gp worth of loot for a party of 4. What the party does with the 4k and how it is divided up is up to the party (PCs).
ANY crafting feat will effect the WBL...so if that is your argument then Crafting feats should be banned. If not then I do not see a problem. Well, I think we're haggling over that "What the party does with the 4k and how it is divided up is up to the party (PCs)." Much like the Rogue finding and pocketing some of that 4K before the others do is just dividing it up.
Crafting affects WBL and there are suggestions for how to accommodate that, suggestions that wind up breaking things even further if the crafter charges over cost for crafting.
Quote: As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment. Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.
Example: The Character Wealth By Level table states that an 8th-level character should have about 33,000 gp worth of items. Using the above 25% rule, Patrick's 8th-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item is allowed an additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted wondrous items. If he uses his feat to craft items for the rest of the party, any excess value the other PCs have because of those items should count toward Patrick's additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted items.
If the GM reduces loot to account for the crafter making more of the party's items, the other PCs may not even end up ahead of where they would be without crafting.
I played a crafter of wands and wonderous items in giant slayer. Worked pretty well the group kept giving me scrolls and I'd convert useful ones into wands. I'd also let it known to the gm I was crafting wands that would be ready for spells so there was little wait time for imbuing the well carved sticks into wands. So started enchanting amulets we found and made into masterwork items. Mostly helped a lot since towns tended to have little to none of the items or gear they needed. But my character also made other things we found less useful, when we got to the giants forge I could already do everything it could. XD I charged full price and it didn't bother others.
thejeff wrote: Louise Bishop wrote: thejeff wrote: Louise Bishop wrote: Rub-Eta wrote: OOC - Since we're not considering crafting time: I get the exact items I want and half the gold stays in the party. That's stealing.
No Stealing is:
Take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.
Your not doing it without Permission. They have a choice...Go to market and pay 100% for an Item or Befriend you and get a discount and have more money to spend on other things.
This opens up negotiations as well. "Hey I won't give you 65% of the item...I will give you 50% but I will go out and find you woman for your evening and do other things for you while you craft for me." Haggling is a thing and can be done PC to PC. Out of character, WBL is a metagame balance construct - essentially another xp track.
This approach distorts that balance, boosting an already powerful character beyond even the impressive boost he gets by getting the items they want at half cost by draining funds from the other characters to increase his own wealth even further.
No, it's not stealing, but it has the same effect on the game. WBL is 1,000gp per person so for the Level the DM drops 4,000gp worth of loot for a party of 4. What the party does with the 4k and how it is divided up is up to the party (PCs).
ANY crafting feat will effect the WBL...so if that is your argument then Crafting feats should be banned. If not then I do not see a problem. Well, I think we're haggling over that "What the party does with the 4k and how it is divided up is up to the party (PCs)." Much like the Rogue finding and pocketing some of that 4K before the others do is just dividing it up.
Crafting affects WBL and there are suggestions for how to accommodate that, suggestions that wind up breaking things even further if the crafter charges over cost for crafting.
Quote: As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment. Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.
Example: The Character Wealth By Level table states that an 8th-level character should have about 33,000 gp worth of items. Using the above 25% rule, Patrick's 8th-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item is allowed an additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted wondrous items. If he uses his feat to craft items for the rest of the party, any excess value the other PCs have because of those items should count toward Patrick's additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted items.
If the GM reduces loot to account for the crafter making more of the party's items, the other PCs may not even end up ahead of where they would be without crafting. @Luoise Bishop: If it's not stealing, I guess it's alright then.
@thejeff: You're talking about something entirely different. If you're worried about general WBL balance, don't be. It needs to be considered on a case-by-case basis. And DMs and APs will, many times, give away loot way above the WBL anyway. I see no reason to pick on this.
@bolded part of thejeff: Not really. You don't cheat the other players behind their characters' backs. You're upfront and honest about it and you don't force it upon them - This is a huge difference, since the opposite can ruin a gaming group.
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@Rub, in fact Paizo adventures tend to have almost double the WBL in loot, the reasoning being that not all parties will find absolutely everything.
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Rysky wrote: @Rub, in fact Paizo adventures tend to have almost double the WBL in loot, the reasoning being that not all parties will find absolutely everything. Won't find everything, won't be able to use much of it and will thus sell it, etc. The intent is still that the group will come out around WBL on average.
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Louise Bishop wrote: Would you demand your friends do things for you at cost when your friend is providing you with a timely trade skill?
You tip a server for offering you a service of bringing you food and drink while taking care of your transaction.
If my friend was only normally able to sell things at cost?
Yes! I won't pay him more than he could usually get just because he's my friend.
And that's the alternative option that a crafter has. If he's not making money off of his party, then he's selling to NPCs at cost.
thejeff wrote: Rysky wrote: @Rub, in fact Paizo adventures tend to have almost double the WBL in loot, the reasoning being that not all parties will find absolutely everything. Won't find everything, won't be able to use much of it and will thus sell it, etc. The intent is still that the group will come out around WBL on average. Won't necessarily find everything, won't necessarily be able to use much of it and will thus sell it, etc. But also, could find everything, could use much of it and will sell the rest, etc.
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Starbuck_II wrote: But come on, 10K for traps? Are these Mythic traps?
Can't you just summon a celestial/fiendish monkey to set off the trap, even if it resets, that gives you a few rounds to get through before it does.
The monkey sets off the trap destroying the treasure within, 10000 gs of scrolls, artwork and potions.
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Gray Warden wrote: Knight Magenta wrote: I think that this has come down to "my build is better then your build, pay me for it!" This is something that only you and a couple of other people have thought, despite having been said repeatedly that it has NEVER been the point of the thread. I agree that measuring the contribution of different characters is nonsensical, that's why I've never tried to do so.
So, could you please just stop using this to support you argument? It's getting boring.
Moreover, you still continue comparing a lesser discount to an extra charge. If I had to play with someone like you, I would have just give up instantly and played a Juju Oracle instead. In this way, I would have had my minions for (almost) free, despite being a bit unsatisfied since I don't like undeads, and everybody would have paid full price for anything anyway.
Apparently, you (generic) prefer this to getting a 25% discount on everything and letting me play what I like. People keep making the argument because you have not refuted it.
Spellcasting has a defined value under the system. A spell costs 10*cl*spell lvl, double that if it happens in dangerous situations.
You believe that a crafting character (say jack, the 3rd level wizard), should recieve some % of the market price for creating items for his allies, because he has expended resources(feats) to do so.
Yet you do not believe that a healing character (say joe, the 3rd level cleric), should recieve a similar percentage of the market price of his spells for casting spells for his allies. In fact you think that'd be petty retaliation.
Why?
Especially considering that, to the entire rest of the world, the value of jack's items are their cost.
That's not the case for the Joe. Joe could in principle sell his cures at half price instead of giving them, for free, to Jack.
Joe's cures can make him money beyond cost. Jack's item crafting cannot.
Yet Jack should be the one to be recompensed by his allies?
You've made no good argument for why this is the case.
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That's because there's a difference between what you add to the party in-combat and what you can and choose to do optionally outside of combat.
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Rysky wrote: That's because there's a difference between what you add to the party in-combat and what you can and choose to do optionally outside of combat. Why the focus on combat? Does that mean you charge your party when you teleport to shave 2 weeks off of a journey? They could walk, so its out of combat and optional!
Also, is it really out of combat if you are crafting while adventuring? your party is taking your watches so you can ready spells. They set up and break camp so that you can craft. etc...
Knight Magenta wrote: Rysky wrote: That's because there's a difference between what you add to the party in-combat and what you can and choose to do optionally outside of combat. Why the focus on combat? Does that mean you charge your party when you teleport to shave 2 weeks off of a journey? They could walk, so its out of combat and optional!
Also, is it really out of combat if you are crafting while adventuring? your party is taking your watches so you can ready spells. They set up and break camp so that you can craft. etc... Uh yeah, if you're not fighting stuff then you're not in combat. Adventuring =/= combat
And yes, teleporting the party would be nice, if they can actually do it (I've never had a small enough group were that would be viable). The point is making magic items for the party with a discount of 50% instead of 40% isn't a life or death situation. They help, definitely, but you're character sin't going to kill over if you don't get your item, or if you "only" get a 40% discount.
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I would point out again that skill checks are out of combat and optional. I chose to play an Empiricist Investigator who auto passes every social and knowledge check in the game. I demand your crafting wizard pay me huge sums of imaginary gold for getting access to what my skill checks revealed to them since i could have played a rage lance pounce instead and done better in combat. I sacrificed so that the wizard could pass out of combat situations easier and need compensation for that.
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Ierox wrote: Yes! I won't pay him more than he could usually get just because he's my friend. But you're only paying for the material components, not for his work and time, if you don't pay him more than 50% of the item's value. Do you expect him do make it for free, just because you're friends?
Torbyne wrote: I would point out again that skill checks are out of combat and optional. I chose to play an Empiricist Investigator who auto passes every social and knowledge check in the game. I demand your crafting wizard pay me huge sums of imaginary gold for getting access to what my skill checks revealed to them since i could have played a rage lance pounce instead and done better in combat. I sacrificed so that the wizard could pass out of combat situations easier and need compensation for that. You're asking to be compensated just for doing your class, for stuff you might need to advance the story. A crafter isn't all of what said person doing the crafting does. That's an NPC, who charges 100% with no discount. The character capable of crafting doesn't have to craft in order to contribute to the party, it's just a nice little extra they get.
If you're only playing a class because you expect to get paid for it and not because it's what you want to play my suggestion would be don't play that class, play something you enjoy.
Rub-Eta wrote: Ierox wrote: Yes! I won't pay him more than he could usually get just because he's my friend. But you're only paying for the material components, not for his work and time, if you don't pay him more than 50% of the item's value. Do you expect him do make it for free, just because you're friends? Yeeeeeeah, about that...
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@Rysky: Indeed. That's why I always turn down requests, unless they are fully aware that I too have bills to pay. Never ceases to amaze me how little my time is valued by others.
@thejeff: He can't sell the product to anyone else, sure. But his time (which is what you pay for) could have been used for something else.
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Rysky wrote: Rub-Eta wrote: Ierox wrote: Yes! I won't pay him more than he could usually get just because he's my friend. But you're only paying for the material components, not for his work and time, if you don't pay him more than 50% of the item's value. Do you expect him do make it for free, just because you're friends? Yeeeeeeah, about that... Note that in this case, the crafter cannot sell his products for any more than that to anyone else. It's not like you're asking a businessman to sell you his products that he could be making a profit on for cost. He can't make a profit. If he sells items, he sells them at cost, just like you sell found items.
The only people he can by the rules charge more than that are other PCs, since PC interactions aren't covered by rules.
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OK, way more emotion on this including revealing attacks on neo-liberalism. Some people maybe should go back to Twitter. It really is just a game.
Where the anything over cost camp is most reasonably coming from. Per the Rules, without special situations, any item a PC sells, whether crafted or looted, only sells for 1/2 its retail price. There are ways you can bump this up to 60% for some things, and that is not trivial to get to. I haven't seen anything beyond that. The downtime rules go into contortions to explain how you can't go far beyond what any profession/craft roll can earn you. So the heartache comes from the fact that you are expecting the party to pay you more than what you can get from NPCs. This makes them feel like Marks.
Now on the other side, the crafters feel undervalued and unappreciated. Not as complex, or mechanically crunchy, but still a valid point.
Since the only value I give to WBL is a good guide to wealth for characters starting above level 1, I am not qualified to evaluate the Wobbly arguments.
Whatever your argument, you aren't Right and you aren't Wrong. At best you are Reasonable.
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Rysky wrote: Torbyne wrote: I would point out again that skill checks are out of combat and optional. I chose to play an Empiricist Investigator who auto passes every social and knowledge check in the game. I demand your crafting wizard pay me huge sums of imaginary gold for getting access to what my skill checks revealed to them since i could have played a rage lance pounce instead and done better in combat. I sacrificed so that the wizard could pass out of combat situations easier and need compensation for that. You're asking to be compensated just for doing your class, for stuff you might need to advance the story. A crafter isn't all of what said person doing the crafting does. That's an NPC, who charges 100% with no discount. The character capable of crafting doesn't have to craft in order to contribute to the party, it's just a nice little extra they get.
If you're only playing a class because you expect to get paid for it and not because it's what you want to play my suggestion would be don't play that class, play something you enjoy. And skill checks isn't the only thing the Empiricist Investigator does. They also contribute in combat and other ways. It's only reasonable that if one character gets paid for their non-combat time, others should as well.
Crafting is part of your character's abilities. Part of what they brings to the table. Not all of it, any more than any other PC only offers one thing.
This talk about greedy crafters makes me want to be a CE character that pays him and then kills him in his sleep and takes back my gold and his stuff to boot.
This is the overlooked fact by those claiming that "merchants" need to be paid for their time - those people adventuring with them start treating them as "merchants" instead of brothers.
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Rysky wrote: Torbyne wrote: I would point out again that skill checks are out of combat and optional. I chose to play an Empiricist Investigator who auto passes every social and knowledge check in the game. I demand your crafting wizard pay me huge sums of imaginary gold for getting access to what my skill checks revealed to them since i could have played a rage lance pounce instead and done better in combat. I sacrificed so that the wizard could pass out of combat situations easier and need compensation for that. You're asking to be compensated just for doing your class, for stuff you might need to advance the story. A crafter isn't all of what said person doing the crafting does. That's an NPC, who charges 100% with no discount. The character capable of crafting doesn't have to craft in order to contribute to the party, it's just a nice little extra they get.
If you're only playing a class because you expect to get paid for it and not because it's what you want to play my suggestion would be don't play that class, play something you enjoy. Skill checks isnt all that an Investigator does either. but by devoting resources, Talents and Feats, into doing a thing better that benefits the wizard and asking for compensation for making those choices, this becomes the same situation.
Remove the idea of actually making a thing that really exists. what we are talking about is allocating a character resource to create a semi-permenent buff. I see no difference to the crafting wizard burning a feat than as if a Bard took a feat to increase their performances by +1 or an alchemist who invests in letting others use their extracts. You pay a feat, or a class ability, to gain a new ability that either benefits others or yourself and others. If you choose to increase your bardic performance bonus by +1 instead of taking Improved Initiative does the party owe you? If you want to be a front liner who can also intimidate but took Power Attack over Skill Focus does the party owe you for the way you allocated your resources?
If you insist the situation has to be viewed in terms of a real world where you are actually making a thing that exists and has innate value other than the increase to party abilities than that is another situation, if the wizard makes their living enchanting items than sure, charge full price or give a friend discount that still lets them make some profit but also, turn the character sheet over to the GM because, congrats, you built an NPC, not an adventurer.
If we were in the army and you couldn't clean your rifle to save your life and i did it for you, would you be cool with paying me to fix it for you? granted, if your weapon jams in combat it could be me that dies but hey, i used my skill to do something for you that would otherwise be a costly service if i was running it as a business so i should get compensation right?
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