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Your initial thought is correct.

The ability only changes what happens to the item when used. Namely that the item or charge is not expended and you lose your spell slot (or nothing happens).

"If he succeeds, the item’s spell occurs and the item or charge is not expended."

To be clear though, the Caster Level is the caster level of the item which can be higher than the minimum level for the spell.


Kamea wrote:
For those that are interested. His Rules

I have so many questions.

It's not the most pressing question, but I do have to ask:

Balkoth wrote:
Dual-wielders can attack once with each weapon as a standard action/AoO/Haste extra attack.
Balkoth wrote:
Haste: Now grants +2 AB, +2 dodge AC, +2 reflex, and 10 feet of movement. No longer gives an extra attack.

How does that work? No seriously, how?


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Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

My real question is - how does one "spam" a spell they can only cast like 5 times per day?

It seems like "how to deal with enervate" is a question of "include >5 things you would want to enervate" and "don't allow 15 minute adventuring days."

Balkoth said that they gave spellcasters more spells per day to make up for the reduced effectiveness of save or sucks. How many more spells per day? Not a clue! I have no idea what's happening at Balkoth's table, and so I won't hazard to hazard advice. I don't even know the rules to the game Balkoth's playing, let alone what could be done to improve it.

My personal advice to improve the situation would be for Balkoth to you know.... play Pathfinder. Crazy suggestion, I know, but I felt someone had to make it.


Time for me to shill for the Razmiran Priest Sorcerer.

It starts by giving a handful of useful upgrades, like False Focus, bonus to UMD and some off list spells. The real golden ticket though is the 9th level ability Razmiran Channel which basically lets you add any Divine spell you want (8th level or lower) to your spells known. The breadth of access this grants alone would be amazing, however is also allows you to reuse scrolls with expensive material components over and over. Not to mention you can use lower leveled versions of spells to get "early access" to powerful spells before any other class, like casting Greater Angelic Aspect at 10th level, five levels before anyone else can cast it.

Not to mention the flavor of the archetype is really really cool.


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Look, according to RAW, casting Animate Dead (and other undead raising necromancy) is an Evil act. But... that just means you need to cast some [Good] spells so you can be good. This actually works out in the favor of a good guy necromancer as it lets you be whatever alignment you want by playing alignment hopscotch via spells. So RAW, yes a Necromancer who raises an undead horde can be a paragon of Good just by casting some [Good] spells. Problem solved!

Of course if you want to create Undead horde without it being evil you can take the Wretched Curator feat and complete it's goal. Doing so lets you straight up remove the [Evil] descriptor from spells.

/thread.


Slim Jim wrote:
If you want to design a game-world whose pantheon of gods are unconcerned with their followers' behavior, nothing in the game prevents you. --In your game, every deity could be like Crom, who famously (in the rants of ReH's Conan) neither listens nor cares.

Why do you believe alignment is necessary to reflect a game-world where the gods are concerned with their followers behavior? I'm curious because it (as everyone should know) isn't.


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Korafireheart wrote:
My brother and i like to spend time researching rules and builds and what not. He says he found a way to make a near godlike build by combinding rogue and barbarian classes together and that its the most broken build out there. Hes a try hard who likes to break everything so i can see him being right about it being broken but is it the MOST broken build out there?

It's not a full caster so it's not even in the consideration for "powerful" let alone most powerful. Furthermore, Rogue is a contender for worst class in the game. Honestly, outside a few corner cases, multiclassing or prestige classing in PF is a surefire way to lose power. It sounds like he does not really understand Pathfinder optimization. I would direct him to these forums and have him review some of the discussions on this board regarding the most powerful classes.


MerlinCross wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
Mere guards are better sneaked around than fought.
In Pathfinder 1E, you get the same amount of XP in both of those scenarios though?

You do.

But if you choose to fight them, you get; a key, their gear, a note to where one of them is stashing some extra coinage, poison that one of them smuggled in, consumable, etc etc.

If you're going to give them EXP for solving the problem without a fight like guards, the least you can do is give them something if they go through the issue of burning resources to fight them. It doesn't have to be big or pay off now, but something would be nice. Even if it's a gut punch. Like say one of the guards had a locket with his love's name engraved on it.

Certainly, but I was specifically addressing "They also pass up experience points." section of the post.


Mathmuse wrote:
Mere guards are better sneaked around than fought.

In Pathfinder 1E, you get the same amount of XP in both of those scenarios though?


Gorbie wrote:
Crellan wrote:
PSusac wrote:

Nice list I totally agree with most of them (great choice on divination BTW). I didn't like the conjuration though. None of those spells are particularly useful for metamagics, and Summon Monster III get's useless pretty quickly above about 10th level.

I'd go with:

Unseen Servant (to extend)
Acid Arrow (to maximize/dazing)
Stinking Cloud (to quicken)

This covers the "utility, direct damage, battlefield control" flavor of the school as well.

The meta magic feats the staff allows you to apply are to your own spells, not the spells that the staff possesses. You can use charges of the staff to apply meta-magic feats you have taken to spells you have memorized without changing their level-slots.

That said, conjuration was actually the hardest to pick. I wanted at least one "summoning" style spell to fit with the theme and III seemed the only one that had any value at all. Grease and glitterdust are arguably the best value for their level, so the 2-Charge power being a bit less min/max seemed to work.

Actually the Staff of the Master states quite clearly that the metamagic feats you can spend staff charges on are to modify the staff's spells NOT your own.

You should look at dates before posting. 2014 was a different time, specifically a time where they were 100% correct.


Yqatuba wrote:
I meant most overpowered for its CR

Any Full Caster, but especially Arcane ones.


What you are looking for is pre-errata Juju Oracle which is... literally exactly what you want. They used to be able to create neutral mindless undead and intelligent undead that matched their alignment. Undead that matched their alignment (ie. non-evil undead) by channeling Wendo spirits into them using the Spirit Vessels discovery.

Removed language: "Necromancy spells that create undead lose the evil descriptor when you cast them. Mindless undead created by your magic are of neutral alignment, while thinking undead possess your alignment."


Shaman is exactly what you are looking for.

3/4th BAB
4+Int Skills
Full casting
Can access a bunch of different lists
No silly restrictions


Lord of the Rings trilogy as an E6 adventure path going from level 1 to 6. Mostly because it would be really cool to have the trilogy as a campaign. But also so that people understand that Lord of the Rings is a low level story and stop treating Aragorn like he looks anything like a high level character.


TheAlmightyKue wrote:
But didn't they FAQ Paragon Surge?

Yes, but you can still change the spell you select every day. It only locks in your feat choices temporarily. Basically, you can access 1 to 2 spells off the Sorcerer/Wizard list every day by casting a 3rd level spell.


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Have you considered just playing the most versatile spellcaster in the game, namely a half-elf Razmiran Priest Sorcerer? Since you will be starting at 10th level, you will have access to Razmiran Channel, which allows you to cast divine spells froum a scroll without expending it by using a spell slot 1 level higher. Combine whatever divine spells you want to buy scrolls for, with the additional spells known granted by the Human Favored Class bonus, with the ability to cast paragon surge and select Expanded Arcana and gain access to any spell off the Sorcerer/Wizard list (or two lower leveled ones).

And of course you can combine Mnemonic Vestments with scrolls for another spell. Your spell list is essentially the entire Sorcerer/Wizard list, along with all 8th level or lower divine spells that you care to use. Should be versatile enough for your needs. And that's without all the really fun uses for Razmiran Channel, like using the lower level versions of divine spells or getting free uses of scrolls with expensive material components.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

Surprised that nobody mentioned that Awaken is not on the Cleric/Oracle spell list, so you would have to get somebody else to cast it for you, unless you used Miracle to duplicate it (but how are you going to think of doing that if your Intelligence has been reduced to 2?).

Awaken is the 10th Level Nature mystery bonus spell.


BenS wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
BenS wrote:

I didn't understand the upthread references to 20th level Nature Oracles. Why are they considered so powerful? Their capstone is interesting but not a combat ability. What am I missing?

On topic, I don't think Paizo stats up anything higher than CR 30. Or am I mistaken?

The Nature Mystery capstone can make you into an animal and thus a valid target for the Awaken spell. Normally, Awaken making the target a magical beast prevents it from being used on the same creature again, however the Nature Mystery capstone can turn you back into an animal, and thus a valid target for Awaken again. Repeat until your stats are:

Initiative - Goes First
HP - More then all the bestiary entries combined.
AC - Only hit on 20 (maybe)
CMD - Higher then any CMB
Saves - Only fails on a 1 (maybe)
Save DC - Only Natural 20's need apply
CHA - Pick a 9 digit or higher number of your choice.

I still don't quite get it, but I appreciate the response. Assuming the DM was ok w/ that bit of loophole cheese to begin w/, the Awaken spell could theoretically then give you infinite amounts of HD, Intelligence & Charisma, right? Maybe I don't understand the rules enough, but not sure where the higher AC and Saves come from.

Anyway, this is off topic; you don't need to respond.

Nature Oracles get the Nature's Whisper Revelation that allows them to add CHA to AC and CMD instead of DEX. Your increases to your HD from Awaken will also increase your saves with a progression of good Fortitude and Reflex and poor Will. To further hammer home the insane saves you can add your incredibly high CHA to your saves cast Bestow Grace/Bestow Grace of the Champion on yourself.


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BenS wrote:

I didn't understand the upthread references to 20th level Nature Oracles. Why are they considered so powerful? Their capstone is interesting but not a combat ability. What am I missing?

On topic, I don't think Paizo stats up anything higher than CR 30. Or am I mistaken?

The Nature Mystery capstone can make you into an animal and thus a valid target for the Awaken spell. Normally, Awaken making the target a magical beast prevents it from being used on the same creature again, however the Nature Mystery capstone can turn you back into an animal, and thus a valid target for Awaken again. Repeat until your stats are:

Initiative - Goes First
HP - More then all the bestiary entries combined.
AC - Only hit on 20 (maybe)
CMD - Higher then any CMB
Saves - Only fails on a 1 (maybe)
Save DC - Only Natural 20's need apply
CHA - Pick a 9 digit or higher number of your choice.


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Level 20 Nature Oracle of course.


I think you have a severe misunderstanding of how summoning works. If you cast Summon Monster twice, you can have both or all of your summons. If you have a standard action Summon Monster, a quickened action Summon Master, and your familiar casts Summon Monster, then you would have at minimum three summoned creatures.

The above is true if you cast Summon Monster in a house.
Also true if the familiar casting the spell is a mouse.


Cavall wrote:

So it's a plan to have infinite power so long as you don't roll a 1.

This is not a great plan if in my group.

Then again, statements like "the simplest way is to be a level 20 XXX" always get a laugh.

If you roll a 1 all that does is delay you, the power you can obtain is still infinite. And that assumes you did not take my advice and use rerolls which drastically cuts the chance you waste a day of effort.

That being said getting to level 20 is not especially hard. You simply have to put one foot in front of the other and one corpse behind the next.


Shiroi wrote:
Anzyr wrote:


Sorry, the forum gotten eaten so I just saw this now. The actual way to easily cast Awaken once you hit 2 INT is to make it a Contingency. Now, I suspect the follow up question is "How does a Nature Oracle cast Contingency?" There's a lot of ways to cast it, but the easiest at Oracle level 20 is to just duplicate Contingency with Miracle.
Pardon the interruption, but you'll need to make a will save that increases based on the hit dice of the creature being awakened, those hit dice increase by two each time you do this. You'll eventually push your luck and fail to awaken yourself. Granted, depending on your investment into will saves and how far you push your luck this could be a net gain of several small handfuls of d3 charisma and double that in d8 hit dice, but it does eventually hard cap.

While you will fail occasionally to Awaken yourself, it will only be a 5% chance (in the event you roll 1), because a simple casting of Bestow Grace or Bestow Grace of the Champion will get you +CHA to Will saves.

Follow the math below:

Base Oracle CHA: 18 + 2(Race) + 5 (Level-up) + 5(Inherent) + 6 (Enhancement) + 6 (Profane*) + 3 (Venerable**) = 45 CHA or + 17 CHA bonus.***

Base Oracle Will Save = +12

Using Bestow Grace or Bestow Grace of the Champion, you can add you CHA to Will Saves. So, base you have +29 to Will Saves

The Will save you have to succeed for Awaken is 10+20(HD) at the start for a starting Will save of 30. You only fail this on a one.

Cast the Contingency Awaken using Sacred Geometry (Maximize) and a Metamagic Rod, Empower. This gets you 2 HD and 3 + 1 (50%) CHA for +4 CHA and +2 CHA Bonus. Because the HD and CHA bonus scale at the same rate of +2, you continue to only fail the will save on a 1. You can mitigate the risk of failing on a 1 by taking advantage of abilities that allow you reroll.

*From the Profane Ascension ability of a Simulacrum of Nocticula.
**You can avoid the physical penalties by reincarnating yourself which you also use to avoid dying of old age.
*** If you do not use the Profane or Age bonuses, you set yourself back +4 to saves. This can be corrected by getting a Cloak of Protection +4 or an Otherwordly Kimono.


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Soulgear wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Short version. Use capstone to change yourself to a beast type, use some manner of int drain to drop your int to the point you can cast awaken on yourself, repeat process till you've amassed an arbitrary level of charisma and hd. Triumph.

So...once the character gets him/herself down to 2 INT...are they smart enough to know to cast Awaken (which has a casting time of 24 hours)?

Awaken also has a somatic component...are 2 INT creatures able to speak?

Smells like cheese gone bad.

Sorry, the forum gotten eaten so I just saw this now. The actual way to easily cast Awaken once you hit 2 INT is to make it a Contingency. Now, I suspect the follow up question is "How does a Nature Oracle cast Contingency?" There's a lot of ways to cast it, but the easiest at Oracle level 20 is to just duplicate Contingency with Miracle.


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Elfteiroh wrote:

Wow! Lot of AD&D2e talk here! I still vividly remember my first character, Elfteiroh, an half-elf/half aquatic elf ranger that got to lvl 6 after more than a year of adventuring. Then I got my first magic item, a +2 sword. I was one of the stronger character of the group, with a STR of 18(35%) and a DEX of 16. :3

The fact that creating a magic item always cost a permanent point of CON from the Wizard, a class that usually have a low CON score by default... These were supposed to be rare! I like that, and that was one reason I hated D&D3e. Pathfinder had such a great world that it bought peace with me. My characters still rarely use magic items, unless they are really important or interesting.

Nice nostalgia, but I invite you to sit down and a read an AD&D module. Or two. Or all of them. Guess what? Progressively stronger magic items (by the cartload) are baked right into the game. Like it was intended. And keep in mind because D&D has always revolved around the "killing economy" any magic items high level enemies have will very soon become the PCs. This is important, because it deeply strains verisimilitude for important enemies living in a world with magic to have no magic items. In fact, any magic item system besides Magical Christmas Tree is going to strain credibility of a given setting. Between two equally skilled people, the one who is better equipped should have better chance of winning *any* contest. Better equipment can and *should* even be able to close the gap between a less skilled competitor and more skilled one. If this was not the case, then what would be the point of making equipment in the first place?

Stories (books, movies, etc.) tend to want to us to believe the opposite because people tend to want to be the punchy underdog with worn-out equipment, relying on old methods and hard work to win. But the opposite is true in reality. A better equipped and better funded competitor using cutting edge techniques is going to have a significant advantage assuming they work equally hard. That's literally the whole point of progress!

In line with the above, it's important to remember that you aren't reading a novel or watching a film. You sat down to play a *game*. A game that has it's characters grow stronger and stronger at set intervals (ie. levels). A game that gives players new more powerful options as they increase in level. And part of that growth is your magical items. Getting new and better equipment is exact same kind of fun as gaining levels. It's the drive to increase your character's power and ability that makes RPGs (whether tabletop, MMO, J, or A) fun. Taking out the "christmas tree" effect is missing out on a huge part of the RPG fun.


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kyrt-ryder wrote:


It sounds to me like those were fights the party was never expected to struggle against anyway. They were speedbumps that could have been won with just as few resources had another caster with a slight hint of martial lean [such as a magus, druid or another cleric] been in the party.

EDIT: added the quote since I'm responding to a message on the previous page

100% true. All the Barbarian is contributing is damage. If the Barbarian had been a partial or full caster, the party would undoubtedly be significantly more effective.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Anzyr, when is the last time you witnessed a martial actually 'win' any fight over level 12? Not the finishing blow, not the majority of damage, but to actually determine the results of the battle?

More than you would probably think, but with several caveats. Take our current campaign where we are currently level 15 (I'm actually playing this time!). We have two martials, a Barbarian and a Lore Warden (The OG one) Fighter, and two casters, a Telepath Psion (ME!) and a Herald Caller Cleric. The Barbarian does occasionally carry a fight, but these tend to be all "easy" fights where the enemies are fairly straight forward. We just got done raiding a Frost Giant stronghold for example and some of the encounters were solved by the Barbarian just beating them down. Now some caveats here.

1. The enemies in the fights where the Barbarian won the fights were simple martially inclined enemies.

2. The Cleric and myself could have ended these encounters quicker (barring lucky saves) if we were willing to eat the resource cost.

3. The Fighter has struggled significantly ever since level 10. I would put the number of fights they have won since level 10 at zero.

I should note that myself and the Cleric are also carrying the skills of the group. The Cleric is also carrying healing for the group, though thanks to Vigor + Share Pain, my drain on healing resources has been minimal since level 7.


nicholas storm wrote:
You are talking about corner cases that a lot of players don't use in their games. Also, of which will probably not exist in pf2e

1. You were not talking about PF2E. If you were then I will happily retract my statement. Also please post details of your advance copy, inquiring minds want to read it.

2. You brought up a less likely corner case and the point of permanent minions was to counter that. Without taking into account corner cases, the simple fact is that casters will always defeat enemies faster than martials. Failing to acknowledge this is a significant weakness in your position.


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nicholas storm wrote:

Can is the operative word. Monsters get saving throws. On certain BBEGs casting is largely nullified due to true seeing, spell resistance, energy resistance, immunity to mind affecting and high saves.

On most of these creatures, the parties I have played in have killed them all with damage from martials and casters in melee or range.

I played a melee character that killed a mob every round pouncing - at the end of the campaign, I did over 300 points of damage every round. In one dungeon, all the monsters attacked my character because I was the biggest threat in the party (they had some means of surveying the previous encounters).

This was the most broken character I ever played.

True Seeing is pretty irrelevant to the discussion. Spell resistance is at best a joke and at worse something that requires the use of a conjuration spell. And at the end of the day, over 300 HD of undead* will deal more damage than any Martial. There is no scenario where the martial comes out ahead short of GM fiat.

*Or whichever long duration minion you prefer. If you go with Animated Objects make sure you use a solar to make the Permanency free.


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nicholas storm wrote:

I must play a different game, because in my games, martials kill faster than casters and provide front line blockers to keep the bad guys off of the softer targets.

They do get assists from time to time like air walk or fly, but not in every battle.

It is impossible* for Martials to kill faster than Casters. At best, a martial character can defeat a one enemy as a standard action**. A caster can defeat all of the enemies with a Swift Action***.

*Impossible here assumes that the caster possess middling amount of system mastery. Knowledge of metamagic and AoE spells is not a high bar to clear.

**Some exceptions apply, but these are corner cases at best that require extremely specific scenarios and even in those scenarios the caster could do the same thing but faster (see below).

***Quicken Rods are a hell of a drug. Also, while it may not always be literally all the enemies, the mere fact that it *CAN* be all the enemies without reaching for corner cases is enough to convey the point adequately.


Before I get into the list, I will say upfront that my preference for archetypes are ones that significantly alter a base class and that tend to fill in concept or design space gaps between classes.

1. Razmiran Priest (Sorcerer) - Being a counterfeit divine caster is a really really cool theme. It is also one of the few archetypes of this type that really touches on a neat arcane/divine caster middle ground that even prestige classes like Mystic Theurge fail to cover. I would prefer if the archetype was not tied to Razmir in PF2, to allow for a more diverse background space for the concept of "faking" holy power. A++ Archetype, easily my favorite (check my post history for more details!) of all Pathfinder archetypes.

2. Vivisectionist (Alchemist) - This archetype was a life saver for people like me who conceptually like the idea of Alchemist, but hate the importance the class puts on bombs. This archetype neaty fills a design gap by giving us both a non-bomb using alchemist and a non-rogue sneak attacker. It's such a different approach for Alchemists that Vivisectionist is essentially a mini new class.

3. Archaeologist (Bard) - Oh hey another archetype that allows for a radical departure from the play style of it's base class. By playing into the "skill master" role of the Bard, Archeologist gives up Bards most iconic ability, for some Rogue abilities, magical trap disarming and self buffing power. Much like the Vivisectionist above this archetype is almost a Bard/Rogue hybrid class.

4. Herald Caller (Cleric) - I love the idea of a cleric that can really display their celestial (or infernal , I don't judge) allies. Mind you part of my enjoyment for this archetype is that it addressed two important weakness of Clerics in Pathfinder; low skill points and weak domains. I hope that Domains (or their equivalent) give Clerics some actual abilities to work with in PF2 (don't forget a capstone this time, assuming those are still a thing). While it sounds like the skill system will be more class dependent this time around, hopefully the new system permits a broader skill set for the Cleric. Especially having different skill sets for different faiths would be much appreciated.

5. Qinggong Monk (Monk) - OK, so this is really more a "incorporate this archetype into your base Monk class" mention than an actual request that the Qinggong Monk archetype appear in PF2. Seriously, this archetype gives Monks a massive quality of life improvement to the extent it should just be part of the class.

There, five archetypes. I have intentionally excluded archetypes that take class features from non-core PF2 classes.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think the question is less "how many books to play the absolute most powerful wizard" and more "how many books to play the fun kind of wizard that an actual human would want to play as part of a group".

Less than Core. Core -1? -2?


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All you need to be overpowered with a caster is the CRB and if you want to get technical the Bestiary I guess.

All the really broken stuff is Core. Permanent minions are available in Core with Animate Dead/Animate Object+Permanency. The minion calling spells are also Core with the Planar Binding and Gate being the gold standard. The best buffs and debuffs are again Core. Stuff like Haste, Contingency, Time Stop, Mage's Disjunction. Spells that replace or obsolete skills are also Core. Easy methods to avoid dying when killed starting with Magic Jar (Potentially replaceable by the Possession line), Clone and Astral Projection. Simulacrum is of course (you guessed it) Core. So... somewhere between free to $50 for a brand new hardcover and you will have 90% of the best stuff a caster can have.

Anything after Core is baby steps up in power. sure Blood Money is probably worth dropping the cash on Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition even though it's going to rack up another $42-60. And Aroden's Spellbane which will add on another $12-20, but is well worth it. After that Ultimate Magic for the Demiplane line would be good, but that's really pure luxury at $10-50. The biggest expense for casters is going to be Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition, but Blood Money is really strong enough to justify being worth it. But, just CRB + Bestiary + Inner Sea Magic + Ultimate Magic is comfortably under $50 if you use the PDFs.


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Ryan Freire wrote:
I mean, can we get a similar writeup of how much it costs to have the hard copies of all the books with all the different spells and magic items and archetypes an optimized caster gets?

Spell are a very small expenditure for a highly optimized caster. Mind you this is old and there would be a few additional spells added now, but the cost to add all the really relevant spells since then is not going to be terribly much more. A whopping 21,305 gold gets you a very impressive selection of spells. Adding in the costs of both the Blessed Books (crafted at half price of course) makes that 33,805 gp.

Spells Known (Level Up): Starting Spell Book (Up to 6th level) (Also in both Blessed Books)

1st: Anticipate Peril, Snow Ball, Ear-Piercing Scream, Blood Money, Blood Rage, Alarm, Heighten Awareness,
Infernal Healing, Ant Haul, Shield
2nd: Rope Trick, Create Pit, Summoner Monster II, Mirror Image
3rd: Haste, Summon Monster III, Tongues, Paragon Surge
4th: Summon Monster IV, Black Tentacles, Animate Dead, Eyes of the Void
5th: Teleport, Summon Monster V, Magic Jar, Permanency
6th: Planar Binding, Summon Monster VI, True Seeing, Greater Dispel Magic
7th: Greater Teleport, Summon Monster VII, Simulacrum, Limited Wish
8th: Greater Planar Binding, Summoner Monster VIII, Maze, Clone
9th: Greater Create Demiplane, Wish, Time Stop, Gate, Aroden's Spellbane, Mage's Disjunction

Spellbooks:
Book of Harms (900 GP): (Also in both Blessed Books)

3rd—fireball, lightning bolt

2nd—acid arrow, darkness, ghoul touch, gust of wind

1st—burning hands, color spray, corrosive touch, hydraulic push, hypnotism, magic missile, ray of enfeeblement,
shocking grasp

Tome of the Transmuter (2,635) (Also in both Blessed Books)

4th—beast shape II, calcific touch, confusion, dimension door, stone shape

3rd—arcane sight, dispel magic, explosive runes, lightning bolt, greater magic weapon, slow

2nd—alter self, flaming sphere, knock, pyrotechnics, resist energy, see invisibility, whispering wind

1st—animate rope, charm person, color spray, erase, floating disk, mage armor, magic missile, protection from chaos,
unseen servant

0—standard plus drench, spark

Blessed Book(s): All Above, in addition to:

1st (100 GP): Air Bubble, Identify, Grease, Obscuring Mist, Mount, Summoner Monster I, Comprehend Langauges,
Detect Secret Doors, See Alignment, True Strike, Disguise Self, Magic Aura, Silent Image,
Vanish, Crafter's Fortune, Expeditious Retreat, Gravity bow, Liberating Command, Feather Fall, Reduce Person

2nd (500 GP): Arcane Lock, Protection from Arrows, Glitterdust, Stone Call, Detect Thoughts, Locate Object,
Continual Flame, Contingent Action, Shatter, Blur, Invisibility, Command Undead, False Life, Spectral Hand,
Limp Lash, Make Wole, Masterwork Transformation, Sculpt Simulacrum, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Owl's Wisdom,
Bear's Endurance, Eagle's Splendor, Fox's Cunning, Aram Zey's Focus

3rd (1035 GP): Magic Circle Against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Nondetection, Protection from Energy, Aqueous Orb,
Mad Monkeys, Phantom Steed, Stinking Cloud, Seek Thoughts, Heroism, Wind Wall, Displacement, Deathwine,
Marionette Possession, Vampiric Touch, Beast Shape I, Blink, Fly, Monstrous Physique I, Shrink Item,
Undead Anatomy

4th (1040 GP): Dimensional Anchor, Stoneskin, Solid Fog, Scrying, Locate Creature, Charm Monster, Terrible Remorse,
Contingent Scroll, Greater Invisibility, Enervation, Symbol of Slowing, Emergency Force Sphere, Ball Lightning

5th (2125 GP): Mage's Private Sanctum, Siphon Magic, Cloudkill, Lesser Planar Binding, Contact Other Plane,
Telepathic Bond, Geyser, Symbol of Sleep, Symbol of Pain, Waves of Fatigue, Angelic Aspect, Fabricate, Fickle Winds,
Overland Flight, Planar Adaption, Absorb Toxicity, Echolocation

6th (1620 GP): Greater Heroism, Symbol of Persuasion, Chain Lightning, Contingency, Symbol of Fear, Flesh to Stone
Battlemind Link, Unwilling Shield, Sonic Form

7th (3610 GP): Spell Turning, Plane Shift, Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Scrying, Vision, Symbol of Stunning,
Waves of Ecstasy, Hungry Darkness, Project Image, Symbol of Weakness, Waves of Exhaustion, Ethereal Jaunt,
Ice Body, Circle of Clarity

8th (2880 GP): Mind Blank, Protection from Spells, Trap the Soul, Discern Location, Moment of Prescience,
Symbol of Insanity, Symbol of Death, Greater Angelic Aspect, Polymorph Any Object

9th (4860 GP): Symbol of Vulnerability, Summoner Monster IX, Teleportation Circle, Foresight, Winds of Vengeance,
Astral Projection, Energy Drain, Soul Bind, Mass Suffocation, Etherealness, Shapechange, Dominate Monster


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Dastis wrote:
This has been bugging me for a while but why do so many forum folks believe that casters need gold less than martial characters? The only big item martial characters need that casters don't is their weapon. So yeah. Why?

Well for starters you need a Caster Level to take crafting feats. With Craft Wondrous Item this means majority of the money Casters are going to spend on magic items is essentially doubled. While yes, the Master Craftsman Feat exists, it's a much weaker version of what casters get for the same investment. Even following the Ultimate Campaign rules, with access to two crafting feats (one of which Wizards get for free at 1st level) casters will have at least 25% more Wealth then martials.

That's just the start though. Now we have to factor in the fact that well... casters can cast their own spells. If a caster wants to Fly, they can just *cast* a spell to get them flight. A Martial is going to need to spend money to do that. A caster can magically augment their defenses. A martial is going to need to spend money to do that. A caster can cast spells that dramatically enhance or completely obviate skills. A martial has to pay for that. Each of these payments further siphons money from a martial.

The fact that a magic weapon is literally the most expensive of the big six to acquire is honestly small potatoes after the above. That being said, a +10 magic weapon is still a huge expenditure, being just under 1/4th of 20th level WBL. So in addition to all the extra gold Martials have to spend due to the above, the fact that they have to buy a magic weapon widens that gap by another ~25%.

Add that all up and you have a *massive* (~50% + any of the costs in point 2) difference in wealth at best.


Ikorus wrote:
Fighters can win AC races, potentially.

Nope, that prize is going to go Oracles.


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master_marshmallow wrote:
Omnius wrote:

I never said AC does not matter.

I said mundane AC is incredibly niche, since the math of the game assumes magic is in play.

And even regular AC is of limited value when there are so many options to engage the enemy through touch attacks, or simply go after saves.

In the case you propose of the Fighter/Mage fight, the Fighter has one option. Attack the mage. If that option does not succeed in one shot due to losing initiative (and the victory is not firmly in the Fighter's court, as has been hashed out here already), not killing the mage in a single shot (significantly more difficult if the Wizard has any of their normal buffs up), or not being able to reach the mage immediately. If the mage gets a chance to go, the Fighter will probably lose, simply because a decently leveled mage has so many options to render them irrelevant.

The Fighter you present as a "normal" example is drawing on multiple books and going for very specific options to maybe stand against a mage in the very limited context of a duel, without meaningful options to interact with the world or influence the course of the story outside of a straight fight.

Between Improved Initiative, Trained Initiative, Bravery in action, and stamina points, there's very little that stops fighters from killing initiative.

Literally everything else but the diviner abilities are just as available to fighters as they are to casters. Fighters get auto 20s on Initiative well before level 20.

This is not a debate.

Fighters can threaten and follow casters, negate the propensity of concentration, and that's assuming the fighter decided not to otherwise grapple or use whatever ability they have to inflict auto crits that stun/blind/hinder casters.

THIS IS NOT A DEBATE.

Look we already had this contest. Schrodinger's Fighter never showed up. So you are right there is no debate. In practice and theory, Wizards have this. The fact that you believe grappling, stuns and blinds would even affect a caster shows a severe lack of understanding of a caster's power. For consideration:

Immune: Magic Sleep, Fear, ability damage, acid, blindness, critcal hits, charm and compulsion effects, deafness, death effects, disease, drowning, electricity, fire, acid, cold, petrification, poison, stunning, all spells or attacks that affect your physiology or respiration; Resist cold 30, electricity 30; SR 32
+2 v. enchantment spells and effects

Is pretty basic. (And yes that's both Immune to and Resist 30 cold and electricity. Not a typo.) Factor in the obvious Freedom of Movement and literally everything you suggested would be completely useless.


Four words (and one arrow)

Spirit Talker -> Arcane Enlightenment.


Grandlounge wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Grandlounge wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Omnius wrote:

Don't forget to be an old coot.

+3 to all mental stats, -6 to all physical stats.

Then have the druid slit your throat and reincarnate you so that you get a fresh, young body while retaining your mental stats.

Then find a plane where time goes faster so you can get in a loop of getting old and dying again to keep stacking the age bonus.

just be a wood oracle, at lv20 they turn into a plant, then you get in drain so your int is a 2, then have awaken cast on you. Repeat as desired. Much faster than trying to age quickly.
If this works it only works for animals. Plants have to be trees as well as plants. Trees don't get a bonus to cha they get a new cha of 3d6.
Hmm... then maybe it was something a bit different. I'm just pretty sure there was a way for the oracle to get infinite stats.

Yep you were really close you just remembered the mystery slightly wrong. It's nature level 20 to become an animal. You get +1d3 to you cha and +2 HD.

You do require a hierling to handle animal to push you to cast awaken and a way to safely drop your int. I don't know the solution for the latter problem.

A simulacrum of Lorthact is an excellent way to solve the INT issue. Using Contingency (off Dreamed Secrets) + Awaken is also more reliable for the casting of Awaken.


ryric wrote:

The ability boosting spells won't stack with the +6 item. They are the same bonus type and do not stack.

You can use a succubus' Profane Gift to get a +2.

Or better yet, use a Simulacrum of Nocticula to get a +6 Profane bonus.

That will bring you to 42. Be venerable for another +3 to get you to 45.

Finally, cast Genius Avaricious and sacrifice 3,000 GP for another +5 to Charisma to end up with an all day Charisma score of 50.


Ayanzo wrote:

That's only if they use their last reservoir point, if they safely stay above it, they can avoid all consequences.

For a decently sized pool, they have more 'juice' than other characters their level, in fact, practically infinite as the reservoir can be used for more things that the occultists summoning ability.

Correct there is no consequence so long as you do not expend your last point, which given that you can get as many as you want is unlikely. Also forget friendly spellcasting allies or summons, you can just attack yourself for free arcane reservoir points as you are a creature capable of casting spells. On the plus side, at least this finally gives a use to the FCB that adds to your arcane reservoir cap by giving you more uses of your abilities between recharge sessions.


The Pale King wrote:
Razmiran/False Priest is definitely the best purely from a power/versatility upgrade stand point. I have yet to meet a GM who would let me play one despite how cool it can be lore-wise.

You could try a PFS GM. Snowblind already beat me to it, but in terms of power/versatility Razmiran Priest takes the title of best archetype easily. It's also really flavorful and well-written with abilities leaving no ambiguity as to how incredibly overpowered they are.


Atalius wrote:
Is there any way a Cleric can get access to different type of spells besides selecting domains and dipping into other classes? I ask this because there spell list is not as spectacular as some other classes.

The Church of the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods has you covered. Dreamed Secrets will get you access to any two spells off the Wizard list per day with a limitation of your highest spell level -1. But that is access to the entire Wizard spell list (2 spells at a time) all for the low low price of your sanity (look Will is your best save on a Cleric).


Senko wrote:

In regards to that Djadugar remember alter self's limitations and requirements . . .

Components V, S, M (a piece of the creature whose form you plan to assume)
If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.

So he'll need a piece of sewer troll every time he wants to transform and a case could be made he will only get darkvision, low light vision, scent and claws but not its number of attacksm, regeneration or any other abilities. Even if he does get its natural attacks usually those are in place of weapons so while he can make 2 claw attacks they'll be instead of his normal BAB or magical weapons and the like. At least as I understand it.

Good thing a simple Spell Components Pouch has an infinite number of Sewer Troll Pieces then huh?


MerlinCross wrote:
Anzyr wrote:


This is correct, though I should note that this trick requires that you do not actually take the Arcane Enlightenment as a normal hex. You instead take it with your Wandering Hex (which can be from your main spirit). Since Arcane Enlightenment is your wandering hex, you can pick a new Arcane Enlightenment as your wandering hex each day. Each time you pick it, you follow the directions provided and pick a set number of spells to add to your list. Therefore you can pick different spells each time you take a new instance of Arcane Enlightenment ie. every day. That being said I highly recommend you take the Fetish Hex and craft your own Headband of Mental Superiority as soon as possible since it makes using Arcane Enlightenment much easier.

I forget you can use Wandering Hex to pick up Hexes from your main Spirit. But yes the point is not to take Arcane Enlightenment(Could have gone for a shorter name Paizo) as an actual Hex but to keep splicing into it through Wandering.

Also I'm not sure the wording on Wandering right now(Or DM fiat) so was unsure if you could use Wandering Hex to pick one, that you currently have. Hence the "Every other day" idea.

Wandering Hex wrote:
At 6th level, a shaman can temporarily gain the use of one of the hexes possessed by either one of her spirits. She must make this selection each day when she prepares her spells. For the purposes of this ability, she can select any hex possessed by her spirit or wandering spirit.

For reference.


MerlinCross wrote:
Crexis wrote:

I believe I know how it works but I'm a lil confused about what you wrote here:

"What makes this good is using it through Wandering Hex. As each other day you swap away from it and the next day pick it up again, Relearning new spells as you want."

If I have cha mod of only +1 I could only max know 1 spell at the start of a new level? How would I be able to change that 1 spell I know on a basis where its not just at gaining a new level but as you said 'next day pick it up again' ?

I was planning on taking the battle spirit as my wandering hex and lore spirit as the main. I planned on using the battle ward.

Okay so this is how it was explained to me, someone might have a better understanding.

You pick up Arcane Enlightenment. You have low CHA or +1 so you get 1 spell. You pick up your spell and add to your spell book. The next time you prepare spells, you can use Wandering Hex at the same time. Losing Arcane Enlightenment will at least by sense, make you lose the spell you learned.

The following day, you use Wandering Hex again, to pick up Arcane Enlightenment again; this counts as picking the hex again, and thus you can pick a totally different spell now.

This is correct, though I should note that this trick requires that you do not actually take the Arcane Enlightenment as a normal hex. You instead take it with your Wandering Hex (which can be from your main spirit). Since Arcane Enlightenment is your wandering hex, you can pick a new Arcane Enlightenment as your wandering hex each day. Each time you pick it, you follow the directions provided and pick a set number of spells to add to your list. Therefore you can pick different spells each time you take a new instance of Arcane Enlightenment ie. every day. That being said I highly recommend you take the Fetish Hex and craft your own Headband of Mental Superiority as soon as possible since it makes using Arcane Enlightenment much easier.


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Mathmuse wrote:

I find that leveling slows down when the PCs stop engaging in combat. The players mastered using information gathering to avoid unnecessary combat and diplomacy to deal peacefully with enemies and problem-solving to defeat the bad guy without killing everyone.

All these tools make the game extremely fun, but it does not mesh well with Pathfinder's Experience Point system. One day I should mathematically model that system to adapt it to roleplaying challenges in addition to combat challenges.

Actually you should be getting experience for overcoming challenges regardless of whether or not you fight those challenges. If diplomacy allows you avoid multiple CR X encounters, you should be getting the experience for all of those encounters. If you can defeat the bad guys without killing them you still get the same experience points as you would for killing them. Assuming your DM is correctly applying experience for overcoming challenges and using medium progression, you should be leveling up fairly swiftly.


Bill Dunn wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

Looked shady, told us just to go away when we talked to them, then attacked our scout when we tried to investigate

this stops them from being "innocent".
If they are innocent then a group of nice people should be easily able to talk with them and get the info they need.

That looks shady, Hey person here guarding this, may we lodge here? No you may not. What is the reason for this inhospitality? We are refugees and don't have supplies and don't feel safe letting strangers in.

Not buying it. Refugees fleeing an oppressive regime or other enemy may have very good reasons for keeping a low profile. They should trust a random group that shows up at their door just because they seem nice? i wonder how many other refugees fell for that ruse and got slaughtered by the people they were trying to flee...

Understandable motives does not an innocent make. If they attack random groups that seem nice, they are monsters and putting them down gets you an A+ on your Paladin exam.


Jader7777 wrote:

I love the ideas they put forth in it, Kineticist was everything I ever wanted from an elementally themed adventurer.

But I've read the class page at least a dozen times and I still just do not get it when I'm at the table.

The other classes just seem like they raise the power creep once again, I mean, I don't hate it but it definitely feels like the ruleset has expanded well beyond human comprehension at this point.

I'm sure there are groups out there that have been able to pick this up and do something really fun, but it's probably rarer than Advanced/Ultimate adaptions.

There is not really anything that counts as power creep depending of course how you define power creep. It's hard for anything to be overall power creep since the CRB still the most powerful classes/options. If you want to say a single X options is better than another Y option then maybe there is some power creep, but not to significant degree. What specifically do you feel is power creep?


WhiteMagus2000 wrote:
Personally, Ultimate Psionics is banned, because it's broken.

If you find Ultimate Psionics to be broken I have no idea how you manage to play Pathfinder considering that Ultimate Psionics is objectively much better balanced than the CRB, APG, ACG and OA.

The only thing I "hate" about OA is that some of the classes (Psychic, Spiritualist) feel incredibly copy/paste.

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