Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?


Advice

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Entryhazard wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:

When i play a caster with crafting feats here is how it goes.

Fighter: "Hey Wizard could you make me a Belt of Strength(+2)?

Wizard: "Sure that will cost you 3,000 Gold.

Fighter: "That's a ripoff. I'm not paying you an extra 1,000 gold.

Wizard: "Okay fine. I'll spend my downtime making myself items with my crafting feat. I really want a Headband so maybe if i get time later I'll make your belt...unless I'm making something else."

Fighter: "What about my Belt?"

Wizard: "Go buy one for 4,000 Gold in the market or make it yourself."

Fighter: "..."

You see if i invest in a crafting feat. I'm planning on investing my downtime, which could be very limited base on the adventure to make the items i want with it.

So my items take priority. I usually offer a small discount to stop working on my items to work on someone else's item.

I mean there are plenty of entitled players floating around. So when i encounter one of them who get pissy at me wanting to benefit from my investment. I just tell them to go to the market or learn to make it themselves if they want to b~*%%.

It will be really funny when your wizard gets trounced by a monster the fighter didn't manage to kill before it got to him because he didn't have enough Strength

Sure.

Because me playing a Wizard i really need that Fighter...lol

Also some of you just don't seem to get it.

If I'm playing a Wizard who can craft magic items. I can spend all of my feats on crafting and still contribute just as much as anyone else in the party during an adventure.

I don't need to share my crafting downtime with anyone else to contribute equally.

I usually do when I'm not working on my own projects. But I'll be damned if I'm going to invest in crafting and have to spend my time making s@&@ for everyone else for nothing over making my own stuff.

People that have played with me either pay what i ask or they go find it else where or they wait till I'm not making my own items.

So if they want it sooner they pay more than the base cost...such a f+&*ing crime. How dare i provide a unique service at a heavily discounted price to them...


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_Ozy_ wrote:

Actually, 300 posts in and I'm surprised nobody mentioned that you can actually use Magic capital to pay for crafting costs, which means that you can craft for 1/4 cost and sell for 1/2 cost, though it will take more downtime to earn the capital.

Now, do people think that you should sell to your party members for 1/4th the cost, even if that means you have to earn your Capital the hard way...1 gp at a time... ;)

You need to spend time and make the equivalent of Profession checks to earn that magic capital, though, so this is less "finding a loophole to make a profit selling magical items" and more "deferring the results of your weekly Profession check".


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Last few times I've played a crafter, I've charged the party members 75% of market price for the services. That's 50% for the crafting cost, and then 25% to compensate the time I am not doing other downtime activities that they are able to do. This has been a well received arrangement with two different gaming groups so far. Started this arrangement early making masterwork weapons at 2nd level, and carried it through magic enchantments at later levels.


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CraziFuzzy wrote:
Last few times I've played a crafter, I've charged the party members 75% of market price for the services. That's 50% for the crafting cost, and then 25% to compensate the time I am not doing other downtime activities that they are able to do. This has been a well received arrangement with two different gaming groups so far. Started this arrangement early making masterwork weapons at 2nd level, and carried it through magic enchantments at later levels.

I guess my question here would be "Is there any other downtime activity capable of being turned into anything like the same kind of profit (and thus personal power boost) as crafting for the party for profit?"

Standard Profession/Craft checks certainly don't. I haven't played with the Ultimate Campaign rules enough to know if they can, but I'm pretty sure they're not intended to wildly skew WBL.

If you're giving up actual profit by crafting at cost for your party and they can be out there raking in cash, that's one thing. If charging for casting is just boosting your wealth at the expense of theirs and there's nothing they can do to make it up (other than take up crafting themselves), that's something else.


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Brain in a Jar,

That sounds pretty close to the previous argument of, "I am a Wizard and dont need anyone else in this party, pay me for being so brilliant as to choose this class."


ProximaC wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

Actually, 300 posts in and I'm surprised nobody mentioned that you can actually use Magic capital to pay for crafting costs, which means that you can craft for 1/4 cost and sell for 1/2 cost, though it will take more downtime to earn the capital.

Now, do people think that you should sell to your party members for 1/4th the cost, even if that means you have to earn your Capital the hard way...1 gp at a time... ;)

You need to spend time and make the equivalent of Profession checks to earn that magic capital, though, so this is less "finding a loophole to make a profit selling magical items" and more "deferring the results of your weekly Profession check".

Yeah, that's why this phrase was included in my post:

Quote:
though it will take more downtime to earn the capital.

It takes time. You take 10 on your checks, so it's not 'random', it just takes time to build up the capital. Time that you can't spend if you're crafting (either for yourself or others).

Once again, that's why the opportunity cost to craft for your party is not zero. Now, if time is truly unlimited, like you're in some sandbox game that apparently is more common than I would have thought, then that opportunity cost does approach zero.

If you're in an adventure path, or playing a campaign with any GM I've played under, ever, you generally don't have unlimited time to do whatever you want.


thejeff wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:
Last few times I've played a crafter, I've charged the party members 75% of market price for the services. That's 50% for the crafting cost, and then 25% to compensate the time I am not doing other downtime activities that they are able to do. This has been a well received arrangement with two different gaming groups so far. Started this arrangement early making masterwork weapons at 2nd level, and carried it through magic enchantments at later levels.

I guess my question here would be "Is there any other downtime activity capable of being turned into anything like the same kind of profit (and thus personal power boost) as crafting for the party for profit?"

Standard Profession/Craft checks certainly don't. I haven't played with the Ultimate Campaign rules enough to know if they can, but I'm pretty sure they're not intended to wildly skew WBL.

If you're giving up actual profit by crafting at cost for your party and they can be out there raking in cash, that's one thing. If charging for casting is just boosting your wealth at the expense of theirs and there's nothing they can do to make it up (other than take up crafting themselves), that's something else.

How much is a feat worth? Retraining feats is a common downtime activity for my high level group.

The aforementioned generation of Magic capital that lets you craft for 1/4 cost, is another activity of equivalent value.


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Torbyne wrote:

Brain in a Jar,

That sounds pretty close to the previous argument of, "I am a Wizard and dont need anyone else in this party, pay me for being so brilliant as to choose this class."

Literally any class can take crafting feats.

If i take crafting feats and spend my downtime making myself stuff. No one else has any right to assume I'll spend my downtime making them stuff.

Everyone can get crafting feats.


thejeff wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:
Last few times I've played a crafter, I've charged the party members 75% of market price for the services. That's 50% for the crafting cost, and then 25% to compensate the time I am not doing other downtime activities that they are able to do. This has been a well received arrangement with two different gaming groups so far. Started this arrangement early making masterwork weapons at 2nd level, and carried it through magic enchantments at later levels.

I guess my question here would be "Is there any other downtime activity capable of being turned into anything like the same kind of profit (and thus personal power boost) as crafting for the party for profit?"

Standard Profession/Craft checks certainly don't. I haven't played with the Ultimate Campaign rules enough to know if they can, but I'm pretty sure they're not intended to wildly skew WBL.

If you're giving up actual profit by crafting at cost for your party and they can be out there raking in cash, that's one thing. If charging for casting is just boosting your wealth at the expense of theirs and there's nothing they can do to make it up (other than take up crafting themselves), that's something else.

In my Wrath of the Righteous Campaign, my wife set up a business in Devaran. By the end of Book 3, she had it generating so much gold and capital that she literally could not craft faster than it produced magic capital. And that was it on its own, without her managing it. She even had part of her business producing the gold to pay for the capital. So yes, it's quite possible.


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Brain in a Jar wrote:
Torbyne wrote:

Brain in a Jar,

That sounds pretty close to the previous argument of, "I am a Wizard and dont need anyone else in this party, pay me for being so brilliant as to choose this class."

Literally any class can take crafting feats.

If i take crafting feats and spend my downtime making myself stuff. No one else has any right to assume I'll spend my downtime making them stuff.

Everyone can get crafting feats.

While technically true, classes without casting have to pay two feats and a stack of skill points to get a single heavily limited crafting feat, so it's not exactly a great move. Though limiting it to classes with spellcasting still leaves plenty of options.

As for the main topic, it seems like the one of the biggest points of contention is the availability and value of downtime for crafting and other activities. If downtime is heavily limited and/or the crafter has other things they'd like to do, then crafting for the party comes with an associated cost. It's fair for the crafter to ask for something in return if crafting for the party means they're missing out on something valuable.

Then, of course, there's the out-of-game versus in-game argument. Out-of-game, crafting for party members isn't a big effort. In-universe, it's 8 hours of work per 1000 gp of the item. I don't mind spending a couple hours helping a friend at no cost (or at worst asking them to spring for pizza once the work is done), but 8 hours a day for several days in a row isn't a favor for a friend, it's a job. Even when I liked my boss and got along well with them, I still expected my paycheck at the end of the day.

Of course, then you get into metagame concerns like WBL-imbalance...


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Brain in a Jar wrote:

When i play a caster with crafting feats here is how it goes.

Fighter: "Hey Wizard could you make me a Belt of Strength(+2)?

Wizard: "Sure that will cost you 3,000 Gold.

Fighter: "That's a ripoff. I'm not paying you an extra 1,000 gold.

Wizard: "Okay fine. I'll spend my downtime making myself items with my crafting feat. I really want a Headband so maybe if i get time later I'll make your belt...unless I'm making something else."

Fighter: "What about my Belt?"

Wizard: "Go buy one for 4,000 Gold in the market or make it yourself."

Fighter: "..."

Wizard: Help me mr Fighter, a monster has grappled me and I am dead next round!"

Fighter: "..."


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DrDeth wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:

When i play a caster with crafting feats here is how it goes.

Fighter: "Hey Wizard could you make me a Belt of Strength(+2)?

Wizard: "Sure that will cost you 3,000 Gold.

Fighter: "That's a ripoff. I'm not paying you an extra 1,000 gold.

Wizard: "Okay fine. I'll spend my downtime making myself items with my crafting feat. I really want a Headband so maybe if i get time later I'll make your belt...unless I'm making something else."

Fighter: "What about my Belt?"

Wizard: "Go buy one for 4,000 Gold in the market or make it yourself."

Fighter: "..."

Wizard: Help me mr Fighter, a monster has grappled me and I am dead next round!"

Fighter: "..."

First off. Lol. I'm sure in a contrived scenario a wizard would need help from a fighter.

Secondly that's a false equivalence.

I'm not sure how letting another player die in combat is the same as...

"I'm busy with my own crafting so I'll stop what I'm doing. If you give me an incentive.(Incentive being paying me for the object at a heavy discount...I'm such a fiend) Otherwise you have to go purchase it from the market, the same way you would have had to if i didn't have a crafting feat."


Benjamin Medrano wrote:
thejeff wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:
Last few times I've played a crafter, I've charged the party members 75% of market price for the services. That's 50% for the crafting cost, and then 25% to compensate the time I am not doing other downtime activities that they are able to do. This has been a well received arrangement with two different gaming groups so far. Started this arrangement early making masterwork weapons at 2nd level, and carried it through magic enchantments at later levels.

I guess my question here would be "Is there any other downtime activity capable of being turned into anything like the same kind of profit (and thus personal power boost) as crafting for the party for profit?"

Standard Profession/Craft checks certainly don't. I haven't played with the Ultimate Campaign rules enough to know if they can, but I'm pretty sure they're not intended to wildly skew WBL.

If you're giving up actual profit by crafting at cost for your party and they can be out there raking in cash, that's one thing. If charging for casting is just boosting your wealth at the expense of theirs and there's nothing they can do to make it up (other than take up crafting themselves), that's something else.

In my Wrath of the Righteous Campaign, my wife set up a business in Devaran. By the end of Book 3, she had it generating so much gold and capital that she literally could not craft faster than it produced magic capital. And that was it on its own, without her managing it. She even had part of her business producing the gold to pay for the capital. So yes, it's quite possible.

That is a boatload of capital/gp. Just how big was this business? That's like earning 10 magic capital per day, and even harder, the 500gp per day to fund it. If I manage my business, I can get close to the 10 Magic capital, but nowhere near the gold to pay for it.


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DrDeth wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:

When i play a caster with crafting feats here is how it goes.

Fighter: "Hey Wizard could you make me a Belt of Strength(+2)?

Wizard: "Sure that will cost you 3,000 Gold.

Fighter: "That's a ripoff. I'm not paying you an extra 1,000 gold.

Wizard: "Okay fine. I'll spend my downtime making myself items with my crafting feat. I really want a Headband so maybe if i get time later I'll make your belt...unless I'm making something else."

Fighter: "What about my Belt?"

Wizard: "Go buy one for 4,000 Gold in the market or make it yourself."

Fighter: "..."

Wizard: Help me mr Fighter, a monster has grappled me and I am dead next round!"

Fighter: "..."

Here's the combat equivalent:

Fighter: Help me Mr. Wizard, I'm paralyzed, can't fly, can't breathe water, can't enlarge, can't get stronger, or any of about a million (slight exaggeration) buffs that can be applied.

Now, here's the downtime equivalent:

Wizard: Help me Mr. Fighter, I need some latrines dug for my Wizard's college, and you're cheaper than paying day laborers.

;)


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_Ozy_ wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:

When i play a caster with crafting feats here is how it goes.

Fighter: "Hey Wizard could you make me a Belt of Strength(+2)?

Wizard: "Sure that will cost you 3,000 Gold.

Fighter: "That's a ripoff. I'm not paying you an extra 1,000 gold.

Wizard: "Okay fine. I'll spend my downtime making myself items with my crafting feat. I really want a Headband so maybe if i get time later I'll make your belt...unless I'm making something else."

Fighter: "What about my Belt?"

Wizard: "Go buy one for 4,000 Gold in the market or make it yourself."

Fighter: "..."

Wizard: Help me mr Fighter, a monster has grappled me and I am dead next round!"

Fighter: "..."

Here's the combat equivalent:

Fighter: Help me Mr. Wizard, I'm paralyzed, can't fly, can't breathe water, can't enlarge, can't get stronger, or any of about a million (slight exaggeration) buffs that can be applied.

Now, here's the downtime equivalent:

Wizard: Help me Mr. Fighter, I need some latrines dug for my Wizard's college, and you're cheaper than paying day laborers.

;)

Yeah, we're definitely in "I am a Wizard and dont need anyone else in this party, pay me for being so brilliant as to choose this class." territory.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Benjamin Medrano wrote:
thejeff wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:
Last few times I've played a crafter, I've charged the party members 75% of market price for the services. That's 50% for the crafting cost, and then 25% to compensate the time I am not doing other downtime activities that they are able to do. This has been a well received arrangement with two different gaming groups so far. Started this arrangement early making masterwork weapons at 2nd level, and carried it through magic enchantments at later levels.

I guess my question here would be "Is there any other downtime activity capable of being turned into anything like the same kind of profit (and thus personal power boost) as crafting for the party for profit?"

Standard Profession/Craft checks certainly don't. I haven't played with the Ultimate Campaign rules enough to know if they can, but I'm pretty sure they're not intended to wildly skew WBL.

If you're giving up actual profit by crafting at cost for your party and they can be out there raking in cash, that's one thing. If charging for casting is just boosting your wealth at the expense of theirs and there's nothing they can do to make it up (other than take up crafting themselves), that's something else.

In my Wrath of the Righteous Campaign, my wife set up a business in Devaran. By the end of Book 3, she had it generating so much gold and capital that she literally could not craft faster than it produced magic capital. And that was it on its own, without her managing it. She even had part of her business producing the gold to pay for the capital. So yes, it's quite possible.
That is a boatload of capital/gp. Just how big was this business? That's like earning 10 magic capital per day, and even harder, the 500gp per day to fund it. If I manage my business, I can get close to the 10 Magic capital, but nowhere near the gold to pay for it.

We're doing an awful lot here to convince me the downtime rules are just broken.

Along with tempting me to ban crafting in general.


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thejeff wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

Here's the combat equivalent:

Fighter: Help me Mr. Wizard, I'm paralyzed, can't fly, can't breathe water, can't enlarge, can't get stronger, or any of about a million (slight exaggeration) buffs that can be applied.

Now, here's the downtime equivalent:

Wizard: Help me Mr. Fighter, I need some latrines dug for my Wizard's college, and you're cheaper than paying day laborers.

;)

Yeah, we're definitely in "I am a Wizard and dont need anyone else in this party, pay me for being so brilliant as to choose this class." territory.

Not sure how you're getting that. Buffing the fighter for increased melee effectiveness is a good and valid tactic. It doesn't work so well if you don't have a fighter to buff.

The point is that wizard contribute their fair share during combat scenarios, just like everyone else. Expecting them to devote their time and resources to the whims, or even wants of the other characters is a lot like expecting the fighter to be available for general menial tasks, 8 hours a day, during downtime.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Benjamin Medrano wrote:
thejeff wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:
Last few times I've played a crafter, I've charged the party members 75% of market price for the services. That's 50% for the crafting cost, and then 25% to compensate the time I am not doing other downtime activities that they are able to do. This has been a well received arrangement with two different gaming groups so far. Started this arrangement early making masterwork weapons at 2nd level, and carried it through magic enchantments at later levels.

I guess my question here would be "Is there any other downtime activity capable of being turned into anything like the same kind of profit (and thus personal power boost) as crafting for the party for profit?"

Standard Profession/Craft checks certainly don't. I haven't played with the Ultimate Campaign rules enough to know if they can, but I'm pretty sure they're not intended to wildly skew WBL.

If you're giving up actual profit by crafting at cost for your party and they can be out there raking in cash, that's one thing. If charging for casting is just boosting your wealth at the expense of theirs and there's nothing they can do to make it up (other than take up crafting themselves), that's something else.

In my Wrath of the Righteous Campaign, my wife set up a business in Devaran. By the end of Book 3, she had it generating so much gold and capital that she literally could not craft faster than it produced magic capital. And that was it on its own, without her managing it. She even had part of her business producing the gold to pay for the capital. So yes, it's quite possible.
That is a boatload of capital/gp. Just how big was this business? That's like earning 10 magic capital per day, and even harder, the 500gp per day to fund it. If I manage my business, I can get close to the 10 Magic capital, but nowhere near the gold to pay for it.

I don't remember off-hand how she did it, but I went through all the rules to make sure she had it right at the time. Problem is, it's been a year and half since then. But the one thing I do remember is that bell towers are broken. They're super-cheap, and add +5 to any GP/Capital rolls, which starts getting ridiculous.


thejeff wrote:
Quote:
That is a boatload of capital/gp. Just how big was this business? That's like earning 10 magic capital per day, and even harder, the 500gp per day to fund it. If I manage my business, I can get close to the 10 Magic capital, but nowhere near the gold to pay for it.

We're doing an awful lot here to convince me the downtime rules are just broken.

Along with tempting me to ban crafting in general.

You would hardly be the first. However, my guess is that someone is off at least a factor of 10 or so on their gp generation calculation during downtime. That said, the ability to build businesses, schools, taverns, and the like can add a bunch of flavor and depth to a campaign. It lets the players feel like they're really establishing a presence in the world, rather than just being itinerant heroes-for-hire.


Benjamin Medrano wrote:
I don't remember off-hand how she did it, but I went through all the rules to make sure she had it right at the time. Problem is, it's been a year and half since then. But the one thing I do remember is that bell towers are broken. They're super-cheap, and add +5 to any GP/Capital rolls, which starts getting ridiculous.

Probably something else, bell towers only add +1, and have one of the worst efficiencies of the various room types.

Gardens are where it's at. ;)


_Ozy_ wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Quote:
That is a boatload of capital/gp. Just how big was this business? That's like earning 10 magic capital per day, and even harder, the 500gp per day to fund it. If I manage my business, I can get close to the 10 Magic capital, but nowhere near the gold to pay for it.

We're doing an awful lot here to convince me the downtime rules are just broken.

Along with tempting me to ban crafting in general.

You would hardly be the first. However, my guess is that someone is off at least a factor of 10 or so on their gp generation calculation during downtime. That said, the ability to build businesses, schools, taverns, and the like can add a bunch of flavor and depth to a campaign. It lets the players feel like they're really establishing a presence in the world, rather than just being itinerant heroes-for-hire.

Yeah, though I rarely play either the "build a business" or the "heroes-for-hire" approach.

But if they become a money multiplier, producing wealth you can turn into gear that boosts your adventuring power, rather than a fluff sideline, you run into problems.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

It's possible to craft magical items while only spending an amount roughly equal to ~10% of their total market value.

I've been able to create a loop where I would craft a pair of +1 cloaks of resistance* every day, sell them for 500gp each (1,000 total) for about 900gp profit daily, which was then used to earn more magic capital to continue funding my crafting projects.

Think about it. One day nets me ~900gp. That's 36 magic capital with the right feats. Magic capital which can be put towards your CRAFTING costs at 100gp each. If your crafting costs are only ~20% of normal crafters though...well, you do the math.

It was crazy how much money I could earn and how much I could craft with the downtime rules.

You just use all that profit to expand your business empire to the point where it can continuously fund your crafting without you having to manage it anymore.

*:
I like cloaks of resistance and similar magical items since they are cheap, are generally desired by everyone, have a high turnaround rate, and are not illegal to produce and sell in most civilizations. The fact that they have a market price of exactly 1,000gp also makes the math much easier. :D

Even if your GM says you've saturated the local economy with them, it's easy to start crafting something entirely different.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Benjamin Medrano wrote:
I don't remember off-hand how she did it, but I went through all the rules to make sure she had it right at the time. Problem is, it's been a year and half since then. But the one thing I do remember is that bell towers are broken. They're super-cheap, and add +5 to any GP/Capital rolls, which starts getting ridiculous.

Probably something else, bell towers only add +1, and have one of the worst efficiencies of the various room types.

Gardens are where it's at. ;)

Yeah, must've been something else. As I said, it's been a year and a half. But she went through all the math with me, and I agreed. And as you earn magic capital at half price, she didn't need to make 500 gp per day, she only needed 250. *is now tempted to go boot up her laptop and find the writeup of the business...*


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Ravingdork wrote:

It's possible to craft magical items while only spending an amount roughly equal to ~10% of their total market value.

I've been able to create a loop where I would craft a pair of +1 cloaks of resistance* every day, sell them for 500gp each (1,000 total) for about 900gp profit daily, which was then used to earn more magic capital to continue funding my crafting projects.

Think about it. One day nets me ~900gp. That's 36 magic capital with the right feats. Magic capital which can be put towards your CRAFTING costs at 100gp each. If your crafting costs are only ~20% of normal crafters though...well, you do the math.

It was crazy how much money I could earn and how much I could craft with the downtime rules.

You just use all that profit to expand your business empire to the point where it can continuously fund your crafting without you having to manage it anymore.

** spoiler omitted **

"Hey look, I've broken the game. Aren't I clever."

The proper response to game breaking free money hacks is to house rule them away.


thejeff wrote:


"Hey look, I've broken the game. Aren't I clever."

The proper response to game breaking free money hacks is to house rule them away.

Or just do what I always do when I GM and just ban crafting for anything heavier than a potion or scroll. Much less headaches I find.


In my case, it was in Wrath of the Righteous and she wasn't abusing the fact she had that much wealth. They went on their adventures, made stuff in their periodic downtime (most of the players had item creation feats, she was the only one willing to math out the business, so she funded most of it), and beat the bad guys down without abusing oh...fast-time demiplanes, like one of my players was suggesting.

Here's my thing on crafting and charging other PCs. It depends on the game and characters. Some people view the treasure as a communal resource, and whoever can most use an item gets it. That's great. For some groups it works great. It didn't work for me when I was playing in Mummy's Mask, when I was playing a kineticist and I ended up with 2 potions and a suit of masterwork armor at the end of book 1. I was a little pissed off with the group for that stunt, because they never even asked me if I was alright with it, and the group talked over me.

In other groups, every character gets a share, and their cash is theirs, to do with as they will. Are you getting pissed at the paladin who donates half their earnings to their temple? I've seen this before in my games. Are you pissed at the person who's been saving 10,000 gp because they know there's a specific item they want, and want it early as possible in their career? I've seen it before. As long as they do their part, people who use this method usually don't seem to care what others do with their money. And in this case, charging allies more than cost seems relatively acceptable in my experience. Many of the PCs I've played or seen are willing to craft at-cost, but it isn't expected.

That's what gets my hackles up about a lot of the discussion I see here. That you expect the crafter to create stuff for you at cost.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
thejeff wrote:


"Hey look, I've broken the game. Aren't I clever."

The proper response to game breaking free money hacks is to house rule them away.

Or just do what I always do when I GM and just ban crafting for anything heavier than a potion or scroll. Much less headaches I find.

It's not as broken as you might think. To get those kinds of discounts you need significant character resource investment and lots of downtime. What's more, the exponential nature of magical item pricing means your savings only go so far.

Also, there's always a choke point with this strategy that keeps it in check. Among a half dozen other built-in limitations, you can only spend so much capital in a day. The people who wrote the downtime rules really knew what they were doing.

Even a halfway competent GM can easily keep things under control simply by using the existing rules and without having to resort to mass banning.


Baval wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Baval wrote:
And quite frankly, its a jerk railroading DM who decides that "because youre a PC no one will buy your dagger any higher than the price you paid to forge it, even if they will buy inferior dagger at twice the price from the blacksmith next door"

The reason you're not going to get full price is because you're not going to take the time to open up your shop and wait for customers. If you did, you wouldn't have the time for adventuring, and you'd be that NPC next door.

A PC selling a sword he looted from the dungeon isn't a buisness set up for customers, he's essentially dealing with someone who's fencing his loot. And usually half price is the best they can get.

Who says I didnt? I do in fact have a caravan I adventure in just so I can keep choice goods with me that sell well on the road, and I do in fact maintain a fairly large shop manned by my cohort and some of my constructs.

Being on the road really doesn't count. You're moving from point to point, you're not at a single spot where you can be found by people looking to do buisness. As for the large shop you leave behind, the only way I'd allow a player to do that would be to use the Ultimate Campaign rules. And that's assuming they've made the investment possible. You really can't just go to a spot and hang a shingle.


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Benjamin Medrano wrote:

In my case, it was in Wrath of the Righteous and she wasn't abusing the fact she had that much wealth. They went on their adventures, made stuff in their periodic downtime (most of the players had item creation feats, she was the only one willing to math out the business, so she funded most of it), and beat the bad guys down without abusing oh...fast-time demiplanes, like one of my players was suggesting.

Here's my thing on crafting and charging other PCs. It depends on the game and characters. Some people view the treasure as a communal resource, and whoever can most use an item gets it. That's great. For some groups it works great. It didn't work for me when I was playing in Mummy's Mask, when I was playing a kineticist and I ended up with 2 potions and a suit of masterwork armor at the end of book 1. I was a little pissed off with the group for that stunt, because they never even asked me if I was alright with it, and the group talked over me.

In other groups, every character gets a share, and their cash is theirs, to do with as they will. Are you getting pissed at the paladin who donates half their earnings to their temple? I've seen this before in my games. Are you pissed at the person who's been saving 10,000 gp because they know there's a specific item they want, and want it early as possible in their career? I've seen it before. As long as they do their part, people who use this method usually don't seem to care what others do with their money. And in this case, charging allies more than cost seems relatively acceptable in my experience. Many of the PCs I've played or seen are willing to craft at-cost, but it isn't expected.

That's what gets my hackles up about a lot of the discussion I see here. That you expect the crafter to create stuff for you at cost.

I expect nothing of the sort. Honestly, my gut reaction was about the same as yours, until I started looking at where the relative wealth ends up. How bad it gets depends on how much of the party's wealth is funnelled through the caster, but even with a slight mark up, it's easy to get to double what the other PCs get out of it. And if the GM follows the rules and cuts back on treasure to make up for the excessive crafting, the other PCs can actually wind up behind.


thejeff wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Benjamin Medrano wrote:
thejeff wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:
Last few times I've played a crafter, I've charged the party members 75% of market price for the services. That's 50% for the crafting cost, and then 25% to compensate the time I am not doing other downtime activities that they are able to do. This has been a well received arrangement with two different gaming groups so far. Started this arrangement early making masterwork weapons at 2nd level, and carried it through magic enchantments at later levels.

I guess my question here would be "Is there any other downtime activity capable of being turned into anything like the same kind of profit (and thus personal power boost) as crafting for the party for profit?"

Standard Profession/Craft checks certainly don't. I haven't played with the Ultimate Campaign rules enough to know if they can, but I'm pretty sure they're not intended to wildly skew WBL.

If you're giving up actual profit by crafting at cost for your party and they can be out there raking in cash, that's one thing. If charging for casting is just boosting your wealth at the expense of theirs and there's nothing they can do to make it up (other than take up crafting themselves), that's something else.

In my Wrath of the Righteous Campaign, my wife set up a business in Devaran. By the end of Book 3, she had it generating so much gold and capital that she literally could not craft faster than it produced magic capital. And that was it on its own, without her managing it. She even had part of her business producing the gold to pay for the capital. So yes, it's quite possible.
That is a boatload of capital/gp. Just how big was this business? That's like earning 10 magic capital per day, and even harder, the 500gp per day to fund it. If I manage my business, I can get close to the 10 Magic capital, but nowhere near the gold to pay for it.
We're doing an awful lot here to convince me the downtime rules are just broken....

I suspect that the particular group's implementation of those rules is what's broken.


thejeff wrote:
I expect nothing of the sort. Honestly, my gut reaction was about the same as yours, until I started looking at where the relative wealth ends up. How bad it gets depends on how much of the party's wealth is funnelled through the caster, but even with a slight mark up, it's easy to get to double what the other PCs get out of it. And if the GM follows the rules and cuts back on treasure to make up for the excessive crafting, the other PCs can actually wind up behind.

The you was supposed to be a general 'you', which was why I carefully didn't quote anyone initially.

Much of this depends on how much downtime the party has, and how much crafting really gets done. I've most often seen crafting for relatively minor items. ("Hey, can you craft a handy haversack for me? I'd ask you to enchant my sword, but that'd take half a month, I'll just buy that." "Sure. Mind paying a bit extra so I can make a wand of magic missile?")

But if the game gets that out of balance and the players aren't doing anything like when a single overbearing PC is ruling the roost, the GM needs to step in. I've played in these games, and it sucks. One player was blatantly manipulating the game in his favor, and the GM wasn't doing anything about it.

Everything depends on the group, and actually talking to one another.


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I read the first post.. but i did not read the 8 pages between there and now..
So newbie (to this conversation) random comment here.

We've played it similiar to that.
The crafter charged us 75% of it, meaning we got it 25% off, and he gained 25% of the cost.
In the end it didn't make any terribly big difference except his summons were more expensive if they broke (construct) and he had a variety of werid trinket items that solved random problems.
This only went to 14 though. or 15? somewhere around there.

The crafter also became a theurge though i think it was.. or some prestige class. But they were still fairly effective since they chose their spells well, avoiding problematic situations.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
I suspect that the particular group's implementation of those rules is what's broken.

Entirely possible. I went through the math, but it's been too long for me to be entirely sure of exact details. At a guess, I'm betting I didn't take construction times and max expended capital per day/week into account. But on the other hand, Deveran's reconstruction didn't exactly take that into account either, so... *shrugs* It worked for my group.


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Torbyne wrote:
Baval wrote:

Right ok fair enough, so then why isnt the bard and the barbarian crafting? They dont need feats, craft up some ammo or some daggers. Otherwise theyre not doing their full share, and so they get less of a share.

After all, if the crafter has to fight, why doesnt the fighter have to craft?

And again, the Barbarian and the Bard do have a contract in place, they get a share of the loot. The Crafter is also making the same contract: Ill do what I do best at no cost, and in exchange i get 25% of the loot. Thats only fair. Were not expecting the Barbarian to translate ancient tomes or the Bard to tank hits because thats not what theyre good at, so why expect the crafter to do what he isnt good at?

No, a party member doesnt earn its share by "doing whatever they can for the party", a party member earns its share by contributing to the adventure. If the crafter is there and hes fighting with you hes earning his share, he doesnt also owe you a free axe just because its within his power to make one. You can argue all you want "but he has a better chance of surviving if he gives me what I want" but he has an even better chance of surviving if he just hires and outfits a few mercenaries to do similar work for him and bring back a share of the profits.

The starting point for me based on my own experience (and while i have been playing for a long time i recognize that is a drop in the bucket compared to the collective table experience of the forums) is that the party splits loot equally among all PCs; Cohorts, hirelings and NPCs do not normally get shares and instead are either along for their own story reasons or charge flat fees for services. The shares that PCs get is due to the characters providing their services to the party.

The argument that Crafter chose one feat over another and the party should pay Crafter to use that feat is a slippery slope. Why not have Cleric charge per spell, domain or channeling that someone else benefits from. Sure Barbarian doesnt have to invest as...

absolutely. thats exactly what they should do. Negotiating what share of the loot each character gets is something I do every game, often every adventure until the characters get more comfortable with each other. As a crafter I usually take a lesser share of loot won in combat and then charge for my crafting services.


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Cavall wrote:

So a wizard gets crafting feats for free.

An item costs 4k.

He makes it for 2k.

He charges 3k.

He now makes a 4k item. It costs 2k. He keeps it. It cost him 1k.

So his complaint there is an imbalance has created a massive imbalance.

So basically what this thread is asking is "I get something for free and I want more for free in order to contribute."

Ugh. Wizards. Such asshats.

You forgot the 8-32 hours of his time. Depending on the campaign, that might be trivial, or it might be costly and he should be compensated for it.


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Snowblind wrote:
Cavall wrote:

So a wizard gets crafting feats for free.

An item costs 4k.

He makes it for 2k.

He charges 3k.

He now makes a 4k item. It costs 2k. He keeps it. It cost him 1k.

So his complaint there is an imbalance has created a massive imbalance.

So basically what this thread is asking is "I get something for free and I want more for free in order to contribute."

Ugh. Wizards. Such asshats.

You forgot the 8-32 hours of his time. Depending on the campaign, that might be trivial, or it might be costly and he should be compensated for it.

The only time I think time really matters is when other comparable downtime money making activities (or other practical game mechanics activities like retraining) are in play or when it cuts into time he'd otherwise be spending crafting stuff for himself.

In the first case, the non-crafting PCs can do those and make their own money, so balance isn't really a concern.
In the second, sure, if you're trying to convince him to make your 4K item instead of his 4K item and there's only time for one, that kind of makes sense. Still, it would be silly of him to take the deal - he'd either have to do without the thing he wanted for the next perilous adventure or lose money by buying it at a shop.


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The character IS being compensated.

At a rate of 50% costs for magic items. For a feat he gets for free. How is that not compensation?


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Cavall wrote:

The character IS being compensated.

At a rate of 50% costs for magic items. For a feat he gets for free. How is that not compensation?

You keep saying "free". Yet i don't think it means what you think it means.


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At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a wizard gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, he can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation, or Spell Mastery.

Seems pretty free to me.

But let me check.

Bonus:

something extra or additional given freely:

Looks like it means exactly what I think it does.


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Additionally when you say "other than X" you're already making exceptions to prove a point that is wrong from the start.


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All of this pretty much a moot point. If the player's group is happy with the idea, they're happy. If they're not going to like the idea, this thread isn't going to serve as an appeal from their opinion.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
All of this pretty much a moot point. If the player's group is happy with the idea, they're happy. If they're not going to like the idea, this thread isn't going to serve as an appeal from their opinion.

I can concur there. It is basically a few hundred posts of personal preferences.


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Cavall wrote:

At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a wizard gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, he can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation, or Spell Mastery.

Seems pretty free to me.

But let me check.

Bonus:

something extra or additional given freely:

Looks like other means exactly what I think it does.

Okay lets use your sound logic.

At 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th level. Every single class gets a feat which can be used on any feat.

Seems like everyone gets crafting feats for free!!!!

Yah!


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
All of this pretty much a moot point. If the player's group is happy with the idea, they're happy. If they're not going to like the idea, this thread isn't going to serve as an appeal from their opinion.

100% agree. I just disagree with the people who seem to think that if I'm not crafting for free for party members, I'm screwing the other PCs over. At this point I think I'm just not going to craft to party members...but that's a knee-jerk reaction, and I need to remind myself that the forums are not what I game with, generally.


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Brain in a Jar wrote:
Cavall wrote:

At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a wizard gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, he can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation, or Spell Mastery.

Seems pretty free to me.

But let me check.

Bonus:

something extra or additional given freely:

Looks like other means exactly what I think it does.

Okay lets use your sound logic.

At 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th level. Every single class gets a feat which can be used on any feat.

Seems like everyone gets crafting feats for free!!!!

Yah!

If they qualify. Some don't. Wizards get the addition free option. Because bonus means free. YAH!

Thank you for agreeing it is sound logic and that it means what I said it meant by extention.


Benjamin Medrano wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
I suspect that the particular group's implementation of those rules is what's broken.
Entirely possible. I went through the math, but it's been too long for me to be entirely sure of exact details. At a guess, I'm betting I didn't take construction times and max expended capital per day/week into account. But on the other hand, Deveran's reconstruction didn't exactly take that into account either, so... *shrugs* It worked for my group.

Wrath of the Righteous isn't Kingmaker. The focus on the campaign is mythic heroes doing mythic things in Xena/Hercules Action Pack Dramatic Style!.. not managing the mundane nuts and bolts of a town rebuilding itself. The only time the TV shows would explore such things would be for fodder in a comedy episode.

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