Ok here is a nice medium ground.
I had a DM in last campaign give 60% market Value on these items: Weapons, Armors, Wondrous Items, Magic Items. (Not on Art, jewels or spellbooks) Only if you rolled good enough Diplomacy when selling. (DC 25 typical, but it was ok I had a +34 modifier at the end)
So on some Items we got 10% extra cash from. Since I was the Face and Support (Life Oracle) It was my job to do this. Which I did.
Now add in Spark of Creation to craft at 45% cost we were looking at roughly 15% increase in most items.
Our group used these funds for group buys. Expendables, Wands of healing, Material Componites, Resurrection costs. Heck at the end we had all the expendables you could ask for on reserve AND a good 15k to throw around.
As a player I see nothing wrong with charging a small fee to craft for the group. Your giving up your character's Down time. Time your character could be doing something for themselves. I would say anything more than 10% is too steep tho. Say you take Spark of Creation and ask for 10% to craft you could easily make 15% per Item crafted. It adds up real fast. For example:
Fighter wants a Belt of +2 strength. Cost to make it is 2000 (1900 w/ Spark of Creation). You ask him for 2200 to make the Item and you keep 200-300gp for yourself. Not a bad tip. In a group of 4...you can carve out a nice little profit. Most people would not mind as 2,200 is still 1,800gp LESS than they could ever buy it for.
Also note: if you DO choose to charge a 5-25% fee on your item creation, well... Why not have a really good IC reason as to why?
Ideas:
1. "I'm saving up money to build a nice, fat mansion to retire in." Set the money aside for this purpose.
2. "I have a family to feed!" Set the money aside.
3. "I'm really just greedy, sorry." Keep the money; spend as desired.
Etc.
|
I had roughly the same question in the Iron Gods AP I was running. My character was a dedicated crafter rogue/wizard wyrwood. It took my a while to discuss both IC and OoC with my fellow PC to convince that my services should be paid. I did the same calculation and ended up with the same "tax" on the raw cost of the crafting. All but one of the players agreed that it was fair and use my price, whereas one of the player found it outrageous and refused to use any craft from my character.
So, I believe that, even if you can work out the equation to smooth out the disparity within the PC team, it is also a OoC issue that may need to be discussed.
I am also a physicist. Sometimes, it is hard to convince people that something is in the best interest of everyone, on a equal basis :)
The answer to this is to turn around and charge -you- every time they use a feat to help you.
|
This thread needs data. More data. Somebody cast summon anthropologist!
Seriously though, it really could use some data. The abstractions and equations sound compelling, but without a sense of how the game is typically played, they're pretty much just spun fantasies in a mathematical mode. Not that I object to spinning fantasies, mind you, but I'm wary of assigning them the adjective "correct".
That's why I'm relying on this big dataset called Community :)
I'm receiving a lot of interesting feedbacks, so thank you all.
Special thanks to Inlaa who managed to summarise the whole discussion quite effectively in my opinion.
If you like that sort of playstyle, then use it. If you don't, then... Don't.
The problem is that usually teammates see your character as a function of his build, so they assume his role and become angry/disappointed if you act differently from their expectations. Crafters are indeed usually support characters (and I don't dislike them), but the aforementioned Construct-Master isn't, and instead requires a lot of resources to stay competitive with level. However, since it requires other useful crafting feats, the average party will assume you'll craft them items half price without even asking, and they'll start treat you badly if you don't, both IN and OUT of game. This mindset is confirmed by the large amount of correlated threads scattered around the various forums (and even by some comments to this thread).
Also note: if you DO choose to charge a 5-25% fee on your item creation, well... Why not have a really good IC reason as to why?
Ideas:
1. "I'm saving up money to build a nice, fat mansion to retire in." Set the money aside for this purpose.
2. "I have a family to feed!" Set the money aside.
3. "I'm really just greedy, sorry." Keep the money; spend as desired.Etc.
[sarcasm]Just say , "What? A 25% discount isn't good enough for you?" IC, unless the character has Spellcraft, a really good Appraise bonus, or has experience making magic items, they would have no idea how much it costs you to make the item. For all they know, you might be losing money by selling them items cheaper than the store. [/sarcasm]
Really, it's the same as in real life, when your buddy the contractor helps you remodel your house, and you pay him for his time. Yes, he's your friend, but his time still has value, so you pay him something (even if not market rate) to compensate for that.
Also note: if you DO choose to charge a 5-25% fee on your item creation, well... Why not have a really good IC reason as to why?
Ideas:
1. "I'm saving up money to build a nice, fat mansion to retire in." Set the money aside for this purpose.
2. "I have a family to feed!" Set the money aside.
3. "I'm really just greedy, sorry." Keep the money; spend as desired.Etc.
[sarcasm]Just say , "What? A 25% discount isn't good enough for you?" IC, unless the character has Spellcraft, a really good Appraise bonus, or has experience making magic items, they would have no idea how much it costs you to make the item. For all they know, you might be losing money by selling them items cheaper than the store. [/sarcasm]
Really, it's the same as in real life, when your buddy the contractor helps you remodel your house, and you pay him for his time. Yes, he's your friend, but his time still has value, so you pay him something (even if not market rate) to compensate for that.
Fair enough, that. But having roleplay reasons beyond just "I want the money" is usually enough to win over your party.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also note: if you DO choose to charge a 5-25% fee on your item creation, well... Why not have a really good IC reason as to why?
Ideas:
1. "I'm saving up money to build a nice, fat mansion to retire in." Set the money aside for this purpose.
2. "I have a family to feed!" Set the money aside.
3. "I'm really just greedy, sorry." Keep the money; spend as desired.Etc.
[sarcasm]Just say , "What? A 25% discount isn't good enough for you?" IC, unless the character has Spellcraft, a really good Appraise bonus, or has experience making magic items, they would have no idea how much it costs you to make the item. For all they know, you might be losing money by selling them items cheaper than the store. [/sarcasm]
Really, it's the same as in real life, when your buddy the contractor helps you remodel your house, and you pay him for his time. Yes, he's your friend, but his time still has value, so you pay him something (even if not market rate) to compensate for that.
I'm pretty sure that this argument has been retreaded ad-naseum in the other thread, but because the other side of this has not been mentioned here I will throw it in. There is a difference between helping a friend when you are two separate people living their lives. But the reasonableness changes if you are say a father and son. Or consider that adventuring parties are often risking their lives every day and charging someone just so you could be more powerful is less efficient then evenly spreading the power around.
---
Another point of view to consider on this whole crafting thing is that some GMs believe that the crafting feats exist only to allow customization and that wealth by level is a rule. That is: if you craft your way into double wealth by level, then suddenly you will be finding half as much loot. In this case charging your allies for crafting just actively makes them weaker.
The problem is that usually teammates see your character as a function of his build, so they assume his role and become angry/disappointed if you act differently from their expectations.
That's a player-specific problem that I don't generally encounter. Hm.
I think this gives you two options:
1. Do the slight markup from 50%, as suggested, and explain OOC that you'll be using the gold to bolster your golem army, or...
2. Just beat 'im up. Grab the chair and turn this into the WWE. (don't actually do this please)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The problem is that usually teammates see your character as a function of his build, so they assume his role and become angry/disappointed if you act differently from their expectations.
So the problem is that you can't communicate your concept to your gaming group very well? Or that you don't check to make sure that you and they share the same assumptions about how the characters interact?
This sound far more like a problem with the group of people you game with than anything else. It sounds like people prefer to let frustrations boil over rather than talking about assumptions.
If your group is this uncommunicative, perhaps it's time to find a group with better interpersonal skills, who can talk out-of-character about their expectations for the game and resolve differences with civility and words.
Mind-reading expectations and the resultant non-verbal communications are death to a gaming group.
|
|
I had roughly the same question in the Iron Gods AP I was running. My character was a dedicated crafter rogue/wizard wyrwood. It took my a while to discuss both IC and OoC with my fellow PC to convince that my services should be paid. I did the same calculation and ended up with the same "tax" on the raw cost of the crafting. All but one of the players agreed that it was fair and use my price, whereas one of the player found it outrageous and refused to use any craft from my character.
So, I believe that, even if you can work out the equation to smooth out the disparity within the PC team, it is also a OoC issue that may need to be discussed.
I am also a physicist. Sometimes, it is hard to convince people that something is in the best interest of everyone, on a equal basis :)
The answer to this is to turn around and charge -you- every time they use a feat to help you.
This would be just childish retaliation.
A crafter who has more resources can create more powerful items/creatures which, ultimately, will benefit the whole party. At the same time, even assuming full price items, the rest of the party wouldn't pay MORE than usual to get them. Paying for healing, on the other hand, doesn't make any sense.
Why do you think that half-priced equipment for all the party is definitely better than, say, 25% discounted equipment AND an extra-powerful bodyguard construct or a flying ship able to carry the whole party wherever they want? This is absolutely non-trivial, and it's certainly an interesting topic for some players.
Our mathematical approach aims to quantify such trade-off to find the best equilibrium point. Maybe it's not perfect, but it is still better than your angry approach.
Thank you Melshyahr for your contribution. I was hoping to find another nerd like me who dealt with this issue in the same way :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Disclaimer 1: this is something I've been thinking for a long time, so this will be looooooong. Continue only if really interested.
Disclaimer 2: before you reply with random variations of "Pathfinder is a cooperative game", "There's no I in team" and "You greedy power-player!", I'd like to specify that this question arises from a MECHANICAL and BALANCE issue. Also, my personal opinion is that a discount should be applied, but in a rational way. So, please, let me explain.
Sure. 50GPs for a CLW, please.
1000 gps for having the fighter defend you, please.
10000 gps per trap disarmed, please.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Disclaimer 1: this is something I've been thinking for a long time, so this will be looooooong. Continue only if really interested.
Disclaimer 2: before you reply with random variations of "Pathfinder is a cooperative game", "There's no I in team" and "You greedy power-player!", I'd like to specify that this question arises from a MECHANICAL and BALANCE issue. Also, my personal opinion is that a discount should be applied, but in a rational way. So, please, let me explain.
Sure. 50GPs for a CLW, please.
1000 gps for having the fighter defend you, please.
10000 gps per trap disarmed, please.
You are only hurting your own gold supply with this logic. If its a choice between not getting anything at all and getting something for not-quite-as-cheap-as-you-want-but-still-cheaper-than-market-average you'll go with the second one.
Gray Warden I think the answer to this is to roleplay out any transaction where your party member puts in a crafting request. This way you can act the merchant without having to explain your math to your friends. It also allows them to attempt to haggle with you which is always fun, and if they try to charge you prices for their services in return you can just refuse service, as any merchant will with an out of hand customer.
|
|
The problem is that usually teammates see your character as a function of his build, so they assume his role and become angry/disappointed if you act differently from their expectations.So the problem is that you can't communicate your concept to your gaming group very well? Or that you don't check to make sure that you and they share the same assumptions about how the characters interact?
This sound far more like a problem with the group of people you game with than anything else. It sounds like people prefer to let frustrations boil over rather than talking about assumptions.
This is not a personal issue at the moment. I like to discuss about general topics from time to time. However, as you can see, there are quite a few people who perfectly reflect the closed mindset I described, and I think I've been explaining myself quite exhaustively by now.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
However, as you can see, there are quite a few people who perfectly reflect the closed mindset I described, and I think I've been explaining myself quite exhaustively by now.
What 'closed mindset'? I'm not seeing anyone with a closed mind.
If you have explained yourself exhaustively and people still don't agree with you, that's not a 'closed mindset'. That's just thoughtful people not agreeing with you.
However if you're going to describe everyone who doesn't agree as having a 'closed mindset', then the only alternative is to set up a gaming group where you pre-screen all your players so that they agree with you before you start playing.
Would you demand your friends do things for you at cost when your friend is providing you with a timely trade skill?
You tip a server for offering you a service of bringing you food and drink while taking care of your transaction.
Asking for 10-20% shouldn't be frowned on when your still getting better deals than market. 75%>100% no matter how you cut it.
While your character gets to clown around in downtime the crafter spends 4-8 hours on you and can not craft for himself or anyone else that day.
I'm pretty sure that this argument has been retreaded ad-naseum in the other thread, but because the other side of this has not been mentioned here I will throw it in. There is a difference between helping a friend when you are two separate people living their lives. But the reasonableness changes if you are say a father and son. Or consider that adventuring parties are often risking their lives every day and charging someone just so you could be more powerful is less efficient then evenly spreading the power around.Also note: if you DO choose to charge a 5-25% fee on your item creation, well... Why not have a really good IC reason as to why?
Ideas:
1. "I'm saving up money to build a nice, fat mansion to retire in." Set the money aside for this purpose.
2. "I have a family to feed!" Set the money aside.
3. "I'm really just greedy, sorry." Keep the money; spend as desired.Etc.
[sarcasm]Just say , "What? A 25% discount isn't good enough for you?" IC, unless the character has Spellcraft, a really good Appraise bonus, or has experience making magic items, they would have no idea how much it costs you to make the item. For all they know, you might be losing money by selling them items cheaper than the store. [/sarcasm]
Really, it's the same as in real life, when your buddy the contractor helps you remodel your house, and you pay him for his time. Yes, he's your friend, but his time still has value, so you pay him something (even if not market rate) to compensate for that.
You're right. It's absolutely fair that the crafter is giving up all of his time to finish etching the fighter's sword with runes of fire in his dusty workshop, while the fighter is off enjoying picnics in the sunshine, or putting in extra hours at the blacksmith's shop to earn a bit of money on the side.[/sarcasm]
If anything, it makes even more sense for the fighter to pay the wizard for his time IC than OOC.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, again: this isn't an issue with a simple "Yes" or "No" answer. This will vary from group to group, game to game, individual to individual, and the influence of the nature of the game and roleplay reasoning should be taken into account as well.
For instance, the golem crafter in question were playing in a standard Pathfinder game, I think it'd be entirely reasonable roleplay-wise for the golem crafter to ask for a little extra gold. But if the golem crafter were part of a team of gladiators that literally depended on each other to see the next sunrise, you can bet your arse I'd be surprised if he said "By the way I need some extra money from you, wink wink nudge nudge."
One thing does strike me as interesting in this conversation:
The problem is that usually teammates see your character as a function of his build, so they assume his role and become angry/disappointed if you act differently from their expectations. Crafters are indeed usually support characters (and I don't dislike them), but the aforementioned Construct-Master isn't, and instead requires a lot of resources to stay competitive with level. However, since it requires other useful crafting feats, the average party will assume you'll craft them items half price without even asking, and they'll start treat you badly if you don't, both IN and OUT of game.
This is... a rather good point, but it touches on a much bigger topic. When you play a cleric people will expect you to be a healer, even though healing is generally less effective than buffing. When you play a fighter some groups will be mad when you use a bow instead of a sword as your primary weapon. There's a lot of situations where people expect something you never agreed to provide.
Basically, I think this point is indicative of a bigger issue than the one we're discussing.
Anyway: like I said before, this is an "agree to disagree" issue. If you choose to play support and intend to play support, you should enjoy playing support. In the case of the golemancer, you've got support-related abilities but are focusing on providing golems and machines and such, and... it's unfair for other players to expect you to be a support character if you're really NOT, or if you're supporting in a different way.
And again, charging a small fee for a huge discount seems mighty fair to me.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Would you demand your friends do things for you at cost when your friend is providing you with a timely trade skill?
You tip a server for offering you a service of bringing you food and drink while taking care of your transaction.
Asking for 10-20% shouldn't be frowned on when your still getting better deals than market. 75%>100% no matter how you cut it.
While your character gets to clown around in downtime the crafter spends 4-8 hours on you and can not craft for himself or anyone else that day.
I probably would do something for free for people that acted without thinking to protect me. It sort of depends on the relationship you have with the other members of your party.
If you treat them as people to make money off as a merchant would, then you probably wouldn't be able to depend on them when the chips are down. For instance, lets say you go die and the cleric who you charged for his +4 headband of wisdom full price, could very well decide that your life is not worth wasting his action casting breath of life.
This could go both ways. If your friend the fighter insists on you giving up hours and hours of your personal time to make his sword stronger, without giving you anything to compensate, well... That +6 headband of intelligence you've been putting off making suddenly takes priority, doesn't it?
You can hog crafting feats to yourself, and then all of your party members are back where they started- looking for random loot or paying obscene prices at the local magic mart.
It's not charging more, it's giving a discount.
|
|
However, as you can see, there are quite a few people who perfectly reflect the closed mindset I described, and I think I've been explaining myself quite exhaustively by now.What 'closed mindset'? I'm not seeing anyone with a closed mind.
If you have explained yourself exhaustively and people still don't agree with you, that's not a 'closed mindset'. That's just thoughtful people not agreeing with you.
However if you're going to describe everyone who doesn't agree as having a 'closed mindset', then the only alternative is to set up a gaming group where you pre-screen all your players so that they agree with you before you start playing.
In fact that's not what I define "closed mindset".
I'm having an overall interesting discussion, and I honestly understand and accept the constructive critiques I'm receiving. Some, however, such as those driven by pointless retaliation, neglecting the whole mechanical argument, are not constructive at all.
But we are both going off topic. Let's all also try to avoid useless sarcasm if possible. I know that it's seen as synonym of intelligence, but mathematical skills are even better ;)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm pretty sure that this argument has been retreaded ad-naseum in the other thread, but because the other side of this has not been mentioned here I will throw it in. There is a difference between helping a friend when you are two separate people living their lives. But the reasonableness changes if you are say a father and son. Or consider that adventuring parties are often risking their lives every day and charging someone just so you could be more powerful is less efficient then evenly spreading the power around.Also note: if you DO choose to charge a 5-25% fee on your item creation, well... Why not have a really good IC reason as to why?
Ideas:
1. "I'm saving up money to build a nice, fat mansion to retire in." Set the money aside for this purpose.
2. "I have a family to feed!" Set the money aside.
3. "I'm really just greedy, sorry." Keep the money; spend as desired.Etc.
[sarcasm]Just say , "What? A 25% discount isn't good enough for you?" IC, unless the character has Spellcraft, a really good Appraise bonus, or has experience making magic items, they would have no idea how much it costs you to make the item. For all they know, you might be losing money by selling them items cheaper than the store. [/sarcasm]
Really, it's the same as in real life, when your buddy the contractor helps you remodel your house, and you pay him for his time. Yes, he's your friend, but his time still has value, so you pay him something (even if not market rate) to compensate for that.
You're right. It's absolutely fair that the crafter is giving up all of his time to finish etching the fighter's sword with runes of fire in his dusty workshop, while the fighter is off enjoying picnics in the sunshine, or putting in extra hours at the blacksmith's shop to earn a bit of money on the side.[/sarcasm]
If anything, it makes even more sense for the fighter to pay the wizard for his time IC than OOC.
This is just because the fighter is a worse class then the wizard and can't meaningful contribute out of combat. Should the fighter pay the druid because the druid is more useful than him? Should the wizard pay the rogue to disable traps while the wizard is "standing there and picking his nose"?
Maybe the rogue is scouting out the next contract for your party of mercenaries. Should he charge the wizard for this?
I feel it is disingenuous to claim that the other side of this argument is absurd. The reasonableness of the position IC depends on whether you are playing a socialist commune or a party of mercenaries that may split up after the next pay day. OOC the correct position depends on how you want to value the opportunity cost of taking a crafting feat over something else.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's not charging more, it's giving a discount.
Yay you get it.
Paying 60% for an item is still better than 100%. Thanks for the discount friend.
Taking craft feats doesn't mean they belong to the party. A wizard gets scribe scroll 1st level...That does not mean he has to make scrolls for the Rogue to UMD on. The Rogue can ask and the wizard can set his price. Which the rogue is still taking benefit from the feat and the wizard is getting paid for his hours of work while the rogue gets to go get laid at the bar. Your still a team player in that scenario.
And this BS of charging for every skill is ridiculous because your getting paid in loot after winning the fight. So yes you are charging for your service already.
Nothing I said in my post implied that I would craft something for someone else before crafting what I wanted. Just that I wouldn't charge them for crafting it.
And that's you. Some people love helping others, and think nothing of giving (or even paying for) weeks of volunteer labor, for no gain to themselves.
I'm simply positing that any and all crafting the crafter does for the party is a discount, be it 5% or 50%, and the fact that not all of the money handed over went directly into the raw materials for enchantment should not detract from the fact that the crafter is under no obligation to make items at all for his party members, and could easily justify his refusal to do so by simply crafting items for himself ("Oh, but I'm almost out of Tree Feather Tokens, and one I restock my supply, then I need to craft myself a few more Talismans of Beneficial Winds. By that time, I can hopefully afford to upgrade my headband to +6, so I'm really sorry, but I just don't have time to work on your sword right now."), as that directly benefits his power level.
|
|
It's not charging more, it's giving a discount.
Yay you get it.
Paying 60% for an item is still better than 100%. Thanks for the discount friend.
Taking craft feats doesn't mean they belong to the party. A wizard gets scribe scroll 1st level...That does not mean he has to make scrolls for the Rogue to UMD on. The Rogue can ask and the wizard can set his price. Which the rogue is still taking benefit from the feat and the wizard is getting paid for his hours of work while the rogue gets to go get laid at the bar. Your still a team player in that scenario.
And this BS of charging for every skill is ridiculous because your getting paid in loot after winning the fight. So yes you are charging for your service already.
I think Daedalus hit one of the most important points in this discussion. Many of the counter-arguments compare a "less-than-expected-discount" to a "charge", which is logically wrong.
Let's all also try to avoid useless sarcasm if possible. I know that it's seen as synonym of intelligence, but mathematical skills are even better ;)
No sarcasm there. I pre-screen players and groups for various OOC behaviors. If you don't like the way your group is playing, one of the best solutions is to pull together a group of like-minded players.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Nothing I said in my post implied that I would craft something for someone else before crafting what I wanted. Just that I wouldn't charge them for crafting it.And that's you. Some people love helping others, and think nothing of giving (or even paying for) weeks of volunteer labor, for no gain to themselves.
I'm simply positing that any and all crafting the crafter does for the party is a discount, be it 5% or 50%, and the fact that not all of the money handed over went directly into the raw materials for enchantment should not detract from the fact that the crafter is under no obligation to make items at all for his party members, and could easily justify his refusal to do so by simply crafting items for himself ("Oh, but I'm almost out of Tree Feather Tokens, and one I restock my supply, then I need to craft myself a few more Talismans of Beneficial Winds. By that time, I can hopefully afford to upgrade my headband to +6, so I'm really sorry, but I just don't have time to work on your sword right now."), as that directly benefits his power level.
I almost always have craft wondrous items and I almost never craft anything for anyone else. So I am not really altruistic.
I just feel that everyone who believes that charging for crafting has no effect on party dynamics is wrong. If it works in your party that's great.
Well, you just said that you never craft for your party.
So, it's okay to give all of your allies a 0% discount (by not crafting anything and forcing them to buy from out of the party), but not a 20% one? It has to be either 0% or 50%, nothing in the middle, because that would be being a greedy, self-centered money worshiper that's not a team player?...I'm confused...
It's been a long time since I was a player, but I told other players up front that I would charge them 75% of the cost of the upgrades, because it cut into my character's downtime and my ability to upgrade my own character. No one objected. Besides, I don't tell other players what feats to pick. I don't tell them which feats to use when. They can give me the same courtesy.
Well if you play with a GM (like me) who aims to keep the party close to the WBL chart then you would be best served to charge them full price. Since as a GM, I will count items the caster made for their party members at their price, while counting items made by and worn by the caster at their cost (assuming they have the appropriate crafting feat) and take that into account when it comes to ensuring there is approximately enough treasure to maintain WBL. So in effect, the caster crafting for their party members is never going to get them or their party ahead on WBL. Though doing so only hurts the caster in the sense that it delays their own access to the higher effective WBL taking crafting feats allows.
It's not charging more, it's giving a discount.
Yay you get it.
Paying 60% for an item is still better than 100%. Thanks for the discount friend.
Taking craft feats doesn't mean they belong to the party. A wizard gets scribe scroll 1st level...That does not mean he has to make scrolls for the Rogue to UMD on. The Rogue can ask and the wizard can set his price. Which the rogue is still taking benefit from the feat and the wizard is getting paid for his hours of work while the rogue gets to go get laid at the bar. Your still a team player in that scenario.
And this BS of charging for every skill is ridiculous because your getting paid in loot after winning the fight. So yes you are charging for your service already.
But it's not BS - you're doing the same thing the bard's doing with his song or the buffer is doing with his spells - you're buffing the other party members. You've just got better action economy because you're doing it in downtime.
That's how you contribute to the group staying alive and getting more loot. One way, anyways.
Yes, but the crafter is also contributing their spells. Which are far more valuable then hiring people according to the rules. So really the party should be paying the casters if anything.
It's not charging more, it's giving a discount.
Yay you get it.
Paying 60% for an item is still better than 100%. Thanks for the discount friend.
Taking craft feats doesn't mean they belong to the party. A wizard gets scribe scroll 1st level...That does not mean he has to make scrolls for the Rogue to UMD on. The Rogue can ask and the wizard can set his price. Which the rogue is still taking benefit from the feat and the wizard is getting paid for his hours of work while the rogue gets to go get laid at the bar. Your still a team player in that scenario.
And this BS of charging for every skill is ridiculous because your getting paid in loot after winning the fight. So yes you are charging for your service already.
But it's not BS - you're doing the same thing the bard's doing with his song or the buffer is doing with his spells - you're buffing the other party members. You've just got better action economy because you're doing it in downtime.
That's how you contribute to the group staying alive and getting more loot. One way, anyways.
But the thing is, you already are the buffer. Or you're a blaster. Or maybe an enchanter, or a battlefield controller. If there's any complaint against casters, it's not that they can't pull their own weight in battle. A wizard who's spent all their feats on item crafting feats has a haste that's just as potent as the one that's never scribed a single scroll in the entire campaign.
You're contributing to the group twice as much by crafting, and not even asking for twice the loot. Just a little extra GP to compensate for your lost time.
EDIT: Ninja'd
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is not a personal issue at the moment. I like to discuss about general topics from time to time. However, as you can see, there are quite a few people who perfectly reflect the closed mindset I described, and I think I've been explaining myself quite exhaustively by now.The problem is that usually teammates see your character as a function of his build, so they assume his role and become angry/disappointed if you act differently from their expectations.So the problem is that you can't communicate your concept to your gaming group very well? Or that you don't check to make sure that you and they share the same assumptions about how the characters interact?
This sound far more like a problem with the group of people you game with than anything else. It sounds like people prefer to let frustrations boil over rather than talking about assumptions.
The problem is that, to some of us here, you are the one with the closed mindset. Because crafting feats are tied to things with a gp value, you seem to think they are inherently more worthy than other feats. And anytime someone brings up a valid reasoning for anything else, you deride them.
You don't seem to be here looking for a discussion, you seem to be here looking for validation for your own beliefs.
If one wizard takes augment summoning to help the -party- progress, and the other takes a crafting feat... No, the crafter's abilities are not worth more. It really is that simple. You seem to want to make it more complicated, when it is not. It really just seems like you are looking for validation.
It's not charging more, it's giving a discount.
Yay you get it.
Paying 60% for an item is still better than 100%. Thanks for the discount friend.
Taking craft feats doesn't mean they belong to the party. A wizard gets scribe scroll 1st level...That does not mean he has to make scrolls for the Rogue to UMD on. The Rogue can ask and the wizard can set his price. Which the rogue is still taking benefit from the feat and the wizard is getting paid for his hours of work while the rogue gets to go get laid at the bar. Your still a team player in that scenario.
And this BS of charging for every skill is ridiculous because your getting paid in loot after winning the fight. So yes you are charging for your service already.
But it's not BS - you're doing the same thing the bard's doing with his song or the buffer is doing with his spells - you're buffing the other party members. You've just got better action economy because you're doing it in downtime.
That's how you contribute to the group staying alive and getting more loot. One way, anyways.
But the thing is, you already are the buffer. Or you're a blaster. Or maybe an enchanter, or a battlefield controller. If there's any complaint against casters, it's not that they can't pull their own weight in battle. A wizard who's spent all their feats on item crafting feats has a haste that's just as potent as the one that's never scribed a single scroll in the entire campaign.
You're contributing to the group twice as much by crafting, and not even asking for twice the loot. Just a little extra GP to compensate for your lost time.
Well then, everyone should carefully account for the value of all their contributions and should divide up the loot based on the fraction of the total value they contribute to the party.
Or they can all just contribute to the group's survival as best...
Or everyone could play classes that all contribute about equally? Like Say a Druid, Summoner, Shaman, Razmiran Priest Sorcerer party.
Or the classes could be fixed so that they all contribute about equally.
One or the other.
It's not charging more, it's giving a discount.
Yay you get it.
Paying 60% for an item is still better than 100%. Thanks for the discount friend.
Taking craft feats doesn't mean they belong to the party. A wizard gets scribe scroll 1st level...That does not mean he has to make scrolls for the Rogue to UMD on. The Rogue can ask and the wizard can set his price. Which the rogue is still taking benefit from the feat and the wizard is getting paid for his hours of work while the rogue gets to go get laid at the bar. Your still a team player in that scenario.
And this BS of charging for every skill is ridiculous because your getting paid in loot after winning the fight. So yes you are charging for your service already.
But it's not BS - you're doing the same thing the bard's doing with his song or the buffer is doing with his spells - you're buffing the other party members. You've just got better action economy because you're doing it in downtime.
That's how you contribute to the group staying alive and getting more loot. One way, anyways.
But the thing is, you already are the buffer. Or you're a blaster. Or maybe an enchanter, or a battlefield controller. If there's any complaint against casters, it's not that they can't pull their own weight in battle. A wizard who's spent all their feats on item crafting feats has a haste that's just as potent as the one that's never scribed a single scroll in the entire campaign.
You're contributing to the group twice as much by crafting, and not even asking for twice the loot. Just a little extra GP to compensate for your lost time.
Well then, everyone should carefully account for the value of all their contributions and should divide up the loot based on the fraction of the total value they contribute to the party.
Or they can all just contribute to the group's survival as best they can.
Maybe the cleric should buff during fights for free, but any downtime healing/resurrections/restorations/etc she should charge for? That's off the clock time, just like crafting.
Off the clock time, yes....
That takes a max of 10 minutes.
But nobody would bat an eye if the wizard took skill focus (craft(basketweaving)) and made a few extra gp that way during downtime, but when you include the possibility of the rest of the party saving money at the same time, that's unreasonable and the wizard should already be providing that for free?
But nobody would bat an eye if the wizard took skill focus (craft(basketweaving)) and made a few extra gp that way during downtime, but when you include the possibility of the rest of the party saving money at the same time, that's unreasonable and the wizard should already be providing that for free?
Considering it is going to be counted against the WBL for that person at full value? Yes, there is a problem with the Wizard providing it for free.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well if you play with a GM (like me) who aims to keep the party close to the WBL chart then you would be best served to charge them full price. Since as a GM, I will count items the caster made for their party members at their price, while counting items made by and worn by the caster at their cost (assuming they have the appropriate crafting feat) and take that into account when it comes to ensuring there is approximately enough treasure to maintain WBL. So in effect, the caster crafting for their party members is never going to get them or their party ahead on WBL. Though doing so only hurts the caster in the sense that it delays their own access to the higher effective WBL taking crafting feats allows.
I've heard this before, but I am not sure how this works in practice. Do you label all the items with who they go to? If you have 2 wizards in the party, and one crafts for the other at no cost, how are you going to "count" the crafter's WBL differently? They both want the same loot and if they split it evenly how do you fix that?
Back in 3.5 Savage Tides, we had an artificer in the party who handled an enormous amount of crafting for the party. The system we came up with was that we created an extra share of the loot, so instead of splitting everything four ways, we split it five ways, and the artificer got a double share. ...however, in 3.5, crafting cost XP, a feature that has been thankfully removed from PF.
Here's what I ended up doing in our Iron Gods campaign; I utilized the downtime rules and had every bit of capital converted to Magic, which I used in my crafting.
I didn't ask the party to help me fund it, and it rapidly paid for itself many times over, because they didn't get the discounts I was giving myself by using their crafting gold to fund my Magic resource generation and using said Magic to craft their gear for less than they were paying me. Worked out beautifully and I *still* got some hemming and hawing over the fact that I wasn't sharing the wealth and they were "only" getting a 50% discount (which I was pocketing a fair amount of.)
I only had to explain once that I'd used my character feats, my personal time working out my downtime setup, and spent my character's gold funding it to quiet down the complaints.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Off the clock time, yes....
That takes a max of 10 minutes.
But nobody would bat an eye if the wizard took skill focus (craft(basketweaving)) and made a few extra gp that way during downtime, but when you include the possibility of the rest of the party saving money at the same time, that's unreasonable and the wizard should already be providing that for free?
This is just because crafting exposes the dark secret of Pathfinder. The classes are not all equal. We can either pretend that the fighter's 11 bonus feats are equal to 9 level spell casting, in which case you can't charge for crafting, or we accept that one is better then the other and you solve that in some other way. Maybe the fighter gets a keep that pays taxes to him to double his wealth by level...
But nobody would bat an eye if the wizard took skill focus (craft(basketweaving)) and made a few extra gp that way during downtime, but when you include the possibility of the rest of the party saving money at the same time, that's unreasonable and the wizard should already be providing that for free?Considering it is going to be counted against the WBL for that person at full value? Yes, there is a problem with the Wizard providing it for free.
That's more of a GM call, as to whether or not they reduce treasure values to account for crafting feats.
Besides, if the GM adjusts treasure so all characters have the same WBL, why is it even a problem? In that scenario, the wizard being paid would get less treasure to compensate, and everyone else is still getting treasure at a discount.
Actually, I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. How is paying full value for an item worse than getting a 25% discount, with your party member benefiting from their efforts?
This is just because crafting exposes the dark secret of Pathfinder. The classes are not all equal. We can either pretend that the fighter's 11 bonus feats are equal to 9 level spell casting, in which case you can't charge for crafting, or we accept that one is better then the other and you solve that in some other way. Maybe the fighter gets a keep that pays taxes to him to double his wealth by level...Off the clock time, yes....
That takes a max of 10 minutes.
But nobody would bat an eye if the wizard took skill focus (craft(basketweaving)) and made a few extra gp that way during downtime, but when you include the possibility of the rest of the party saving money at the same time, that's unreasonable and the wizard should already be providing that for free?
Nothing is stopping the fighter from picking up craft (basketweaving), especially in a campaign that uses background skills, and making extra money there. Or, use the downtime rules and use your downtime to create a vast mercantile empire that gives you revenue.
Hey, just because the fighter isn't using their downtime to do anything productive does not mean there's nothing that they can do.
Well if you play with a GM (like me) who aims to keep the party close to the WBL chart then you would be best served to charge them full price. Since as a GM, I will count items the caster made for their party members at their price, while counting items made by and worn by the caster at their cost (assuming they have the appropriate crafting feat) and take that into account when it comes to ensuring there is approximately enough treasure to maintain WBL. So in effect, the caster crafting for their party members is never going to get them or their party ahead on WBL. Though doing so only hurts the caster in the sense that it delays their own access to the higher effective WBL taking crafting feats allows.I've heard this before, but I am not sure how this works in practice. Do you label all the items with who they go to? If you have 2 wizards in the party, and one crafts for the other at no cost, how are you going to "count" the crafter's WBL differently? They both want the same loot and if they split it evenly how do you fix that?
I count the items on the sheet. So if the Fighter has a Cloak of Protection +5 that they are wearing it is counted at full value. And then I add the value of all the rest of the gear they wear (also at full value).
But for caster with Craft Wondrous Item crafted a Cloak of Protection +5 and used it themselves it would be counted at half price. Thus if the caster is wearing more of their own stuff that they can craft, I will need to add more items to keep the party on WBL. If the opposite is true and the Wizard crafted a +5 Cloak for the Fighter at cost for the Fighter to wear, I will reduce WBL.
Actually, I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. How is paying full value for an item worse than getting a 25% discount, with your party member benefiting from their efforts?
Example with made up numbers:
Wizard has 20,000 GP in crafted gear with a target WBL of 40,000 GP.Fighter has 20,000 GP in purchased gear with a target WBL of 40,000 GP
In this example I need to provide about 50,000 GP in items to get them to that WBL (30,000 + 20,000).
Reverse example.
Wizard has 20,000 GP in purchased gear with a target WBL of 40,000 GP..
Fighter has 20,000 GP in gear crafted by Wizard with a target WBL of 40,000 GP.
In this example I only need to add 20,000 GP to get them to WBL. By not taking advantage of the feat, the party is effectively 10,000 GP behind where they could be.