So i'm making a non-evil Drow, the first everyone runs into,
″Is this different from Drizzt?″
Some think Drizzt is lame, others cool.
but this isn't the place to discuss that.
backstory and personal codes i have in what i feel is pretty well done.
i was one of them, just as ruthless, just as arrogant...nothing changed after i fell in love, just that i knew it was true. With one of my families slaves no less.
Then things changed, my mother found out. she had him killed, for the sake of the family and it's future. After that i decided to leave, i had the most important thing in my life taken away by my own family...if i ever have something that great again, it won't be down here in this darkness.
so first and formost i think she will be some kind of neutral. most because i can't justify good on a character that has no issues with slavery.
my biggest thing is i have really no ideas for a class or build to take this so help with that is appreciated.
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There really isn't a better way of generating eye-rolls than opening up with this request.
Here's the real question.. does your character concept REALLY require yet another Drizzt wannabe?
There really is practically none in your background that justifies your non-evil drow given the society and background you came from. The horrors of Drow existence ARE your norms. There's no real depth given to your sudden revulsion to a normal drow lifestyle.
Drow playing lust games with their slaves is nothing new. And nothing in your background gives it any differentiation than this.
Also this background doesn't really negate an Evil Drow that just decided to hate his family and society for personal offense
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Also this background doesn't really negate an Evil Drow that just decided to hate his family and society for personal offense
Correct. Family hatred is pretty much Drow De Rigeur. Within drow society, your greatest rivals are within your own family.
Hmm, the 'drow falls in love with a slave' part needs some solid justification, I guess. Why did she? What did she experience she couldn't have with other drow? And I'd expect a normal drow to simply (ab)use a slave as it pleases her, so why wasn't that the case here?
Are you set on love to another person, anyway? It could also have been the PC's favourite pet or possession - emotional attachment can go many ways. Eventually she might have been sick of all this destruction and murdering.
Leaving the drow settlement is actually a believable move for a nonevil character. Where an evil one might have plotted bloody revenge, a neutral one cares more about her own future.
As a player or GM I eye roll so damn hard when I see someone mention non-evil Drow that sometimes they get stuck.
As others have said, your justification is kind of weak for being not evil.
It's also worth noting on Golarion that Drow are essentially boogeymen that no one has heard of before. They almost never come to the surface. Even if you character decided not to be evil, it is just as likely for them to hide out in the dark caverns they know, rather than go the surface world that they know nothing about.
Honestly, if your family killed the person you loved it would be much more drow for the character to plot the complete disgrace and death of the offending family members, rather than run away from the problem.
It's also worth noting on Golarion that Drow are essentially boogeymen that no one has heard of before. They almost never come to the surface. Even if you character decided not to be evil, it is just as likely for them to hide out in the dark caverns they know, rather than go the surface world that they know nothing about.
Expanding on this point, there's an actual force of elves, the Lantern Bearers, whose purpose is to (A) eradicate the drow and (B) hide their existence from other races.
I agree with the others about the backstory being thin. I don't see anything there that justifies the alignment, the attitude, or the actions. It's also worth noting that drow are socially-ingrained evil, not evil by birth, and that non-evil attitudes likely would have killed your character by that point.
Well, it could be well hidden or simply misinterpreted. After all, a drow noble would hardly expect another drow noble (especially one she herself raised) to be so... morally deficient.
To be honest, I would expect a bit more story about what the character accepted rather than just what she rejects (and rejection of the family need not mean not agreeing with their values). Mind you, chaotic neutral can work as a sort of "I don´t care for your rules, leave me alone" character. The problem is making it possible that the character can bond with the other party members.
Well, it could be well hidden or simply misinterpreted. After all, a drow noble would hardly expect another drow noble (especially one she herself raised) to be so... morally deficient.
To be honest, I would expect a bit more story about what the character accepted rather than just what she rejects (and rejection of the family need not mean not agreeing with their values). Mind you, chaotic neutral can work as a sort of "I don´t care for your rules, leave me alone" character. The problem is making it possible that the character can bond with the other party members and getting to terms with the fact that most subterranean intelligent life wants her dead, dismembered and possibly eaten.
Then again, I think there were one or two CN drow detailed in the writeup of Zirnakaynin, and they weren´t particular hermits. Someone smart and humble enough not to draw too much attention could survive for a time despite their moral failings.
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so first and foremost i only brought up Drizzt because i wanted to get the point across that i don't want to be at all like him...
next thing to address i never said chaotic neutral, i was thinking true neutral...i really have a thing against CN, a prior player tainted it for me.
also thanks for all the criticism whether it was constructive and helpful or not. it inspired me to work more on improving the idea.
and after thinking i do have what should be a much better concept.
like most drow she was raised/ trained to desire power and go after it. So she went any power she could get, including knowledge. She found herself fascinated with history of all kinds.
this lead her to form beliefs of her own, beliefs based on what she read.
things like
having to rely on dieties for power being a form of weakness, what are you without those blessings.
taught her certain degrees of respect, like you catch more flies with honey than vinegar... basically she rather garner loyalty subjects than scared ones. she wouldn't abuse her slaves because it's a waste of her time and energy doing something she gets no joy out of, that's time and energy she could be using to train, study, or any number of other things.
just about the thing she doesn't respect is her own people, because they don't learn...they could be more of a threat if they weren't preoccupied stabbing eachother in the back. though she needs to play the game that is drow life so she would never say this aloud.
basically what i'm getting at for this new idea is she isn't evil because, she doesn't see any value in it, for that matter she thinks the same of good. both will always exist, and will always cancel eachother out.
she left for the surface to grow and learn from the history and events that happened there. why would she ever go back?
long story short my idea is something along the lines of a grey jedi, where there is a middle ground. the type of character you'd expect to see trying to gain enlightenment.
she left for the surface to grow and learn from the history and events that happened there. why would she ever go back?
Well, the entire army of elves dedicating their lives to killing her and hiding her corpse and then possibly killing everyone on the surface she ever came into contact with might be a good motivator to go back underground.
Because in the Pathfinder world, that's what the Lantern Bearers do. That is the entire purpose of their organization: Kill Drow, Stop other races from finding out there are Drow.
Just because your Drow is less evil than the normal Drow doesn't mean they won't kill her. If she is on the surface, to them she must die.
she left for the surface to grow and learn from the history and events that happened there. why would she ever go back?Well, the entire army of elves dedicating their lives to killing her and hiding her corpse and then possibly killing everyone on the surface she ever came into contact with might be a good motivator to go back underground.
Because in the Pathfinder world, that's what the Lantern Bearers do. That is the entire purpose of their organization: Kill Drow, Stop other races from finding out there are Drow.
Just because your Drow is less evil than the normal Drow doesn't mean they won't kill her. If she is on the surface, to them she must die.
that is oh so very true sir, however. if it's the choice between the underdark, darklands, whatever it's called and one secret organization i'd take my risks with the lantern bearers.
both places are dangerous, but the surface is still less so.
Just don't do it. Everyone at your table is going to be annoyed with "another Drizzt wannabe" even if you're not all that like the character.
Drow are basically unplayable unless you are playing a Drow campaign.
oh wow, someone helping with the actual class idea question. thank you particle man, you are a saint.
also i agree lawful neutral could work... i mean Irori did it.
i've never actually done a wizard due to tier 1 status, i'm not a fan of overshadowing other players but wizard of some kind could work...ima go look at wizard for the first time since 3.5 first came out...
Just play Chaotic Neutral.
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Let me offer an alternative to starting as a non-evil Drow:
Start as an Evil Drow that has to run away from home for a reason that actually threatens her life.
Let's say, for instance, that I'm playing a Drow from the lower castes. My character REALLY wants to get more power quickly, and they're brash and easy to rile. And so they end up a victim of Drow politics: someone else convinces them to strike out at a political opponent of theirs, and my Drow does so... publicly. And that's enough to get them executed, especially if this is someone important. A fate worse than death awaits them.
By some stroke of luck, my Drow escapes. They flee as quick as they can and make their getaway. They escape into a world of blinding sunlight, not knowing where they are or how this strange, foreign place operates. They've never been here. It's alien. It's opportunity.
Start off having the goal of exploiting others and subjugating those you meet. Be ready to be beaten. Also be ready to pretend to be a good guy, and to make others think you're on their side.
But perhaps as you play this sort of character, your character actually DOES start to believe what they're saying, and they DO start to become a not-so-horrible monster. Perhaps eventually they'd turn Neutral.
I think that's a much better way of going about things: let other players see your character evolve as you play. Start off evil - perhaps even foolish - and grow as a character.
EDIT: For classes, I'd suggest a Wizard, Magus, or maybe even a Bloodrager with a demonic heritage of some kind. Neutral Evil to start.
The best way to play a non evil drow is dont.
Your character doesnt have a reason to be good, it sounds like hes just as selfish as ever. Play an evil drow, and then through roleplaying learn the value of good and become good.
important part of the new concept is that she's neither good nor evil, but neutral... she think good and evil are both pointless.
thinking about it i really am liking lawful neutral. it seems to fit her ideas and personality,
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IMO, make Lawful Neutral your goal, but don't make it your starting point. Again, Neutral Evil is perfectly reasonable for a Drow, and you can make the shift from there. But I'd roleplay it out as the campaign progresses rather than start off saying "I'm non-evil, guys!" You'll come across as more believable that way.
The best way to play a non evil drow is dont.
Your character doesnt have a reason to be good, it sounds like hes just as selfish as ever. Play an evil drow, and then through roleplaying learn the value of good and become good.
important part of the new concept is that she's neither good nor evil, but neutral... she think good and evil are both pointless.
thinking about it i really am liking lawful neutral. it seems to fit her ideas and personality,
I dunno, you could go true neutral and be like April Ludgate from parks and rec
lets see item crafting or metamagic? i'm gonna say metamagic, though what type of spells i'm still deciding and figuring out. more because crafting isn't always allowed in some games.
goals are something to think about, but i think both questions have the same answer. this is also something i'm still thinking about so it might not be that good.
she learned her beliefs and opinions all from books, so as a goal she seeks understanding and enlightenment because all her knowledge and intelligence are meaningless without the wisdom to use it properly.
she seeks knowledge because she is afraid of dying, and if she gets stronger she won't die.
Fairly certain there is more ways to make non-evil drows then there is classic evil B!@#$%^ drow elfs at this point.
The best way to play a non evil drow is dont.
Your character doesnt have a reason to be good, it sounds like hes just as selfish as ever. Play an evil drow, and then through roleplaying learn the value of good and become good.
important part of the new concept is that she's neither good nor evil, but neutral... she think good and evil are both pointless.
thinking about it i really am liking lawful neutral. it seems to fit her ideas and personality,
I dunno, you could go true neutral and be like April Ludgate from parks and rec
Personally I would lean towards NE for ludgate. later she shifts towards LE maybe
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important part of the new concept is that she's neither good nor evil, but neutral... she think good and evil are both pointless.
thinking about it i really am liking lawful neutral. it seems to fit her ideas and personality,
I have definitely, in the not so distant past played an Elf who was at least part Drow whose alignment was best summed up as "Alignment is a ridiculous notion that obviates nuance and is ultimately a tool for the powerful to enforce their will on the masses and should be disregarded entirely."
After I was forced to write something in the alignment column, I put Neutral.
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Cast Ancestral Regression every day to help avoid the lantern bearers.
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Why is everyone so down on this concept? People have said much in answer to this question before, but not really answered it except with a mixture of fiat and complaints about Drizz't Do'Urden clones.
Well, here's my take on a non-Evil Drow that isn't a Drizz't Do'Urden clone. I haven't actually read any of the Drizz't Do'Urden series, so before starting this, as a matter of due diligence, I read the Wikipedia entry (free Cliff's Notes on Cliff's Notes for the win) to make sure that I wasn't creating a clone by accident. I have tried to use the character's background (linked above) to address objections (other than the ones that people are going to make automatically no matter what you do), including those specific to Second Darkness. Namely, she ISN'T a refugee from the Darklands -- Mom and Dad did that during the time that the situation in pre-independence Andoran was not yet at a boil (for the Chelish Civil War had not yet occurred), but was heating up (things were already bad -- the Chelish Civil War didn't just come out of nowhere when Aroden died). They wound up in the middle of that. And then they actually got overprotective of her while they were raising her in Augustana (the capital of Andoran), including not teaching her enough about the Evil that they fled (she knows its BAD, but doesn't know the half of it), instead concentrating on teaching her and getting their new friends to teach her how to survive in the surface world from the time of her birth. The Lantern Bearers (and Winter Council, if knowledge of her and her parents ever got up that high) would certainly want to kill her, but even they know that attempting the murderhobo solution in Augustana is quite risky -- nevertheless, she and her family have had some close calls, so she's skittish even if not aware of the full real deal behind this recurrent threat on her life. This also means that she mostly can't get Elven clothes, so she ends up wearing Andoren Human clothes (that don't fit right), as well as speaking with an almost fully Andoren accent, and speaks only barely passable Undercommon. She won't break the mystery of the Drow just by existing -- that will take some active effort. From the point of view of the Lantern Bearers, they already know about Drow (or at least think they know), and will try to eliminate this aberration discretely, for instance, by maneuvering her into going to some place more favorable for such an action, such as Riddleport. From the point of view of most people in Riddleport, she will be just another weirdo that stepped off a ship. From her point of view, she's been sent by the Temple of Sarenrae (actually a rather obscure offshoot of it) to try to establish a foothold of redemption in this dump of a town way up to the northwest; although the hope is looking rather forlorn, it's not all bad -- it's not like she's going to be facing any of those REALLY horrible people that Mom and Dad fled from, right?
Okay, I'm off next to read a thread about Why is there no Good succubus equivalent.
The best way to play a non evil drow is dont.
Your character doesnt have a reason to be good, it sounds like hes just as selfish as ever. Play an evil drow, and then through roleplaying learn the value of good and become good.
We have had many selfish NPCs such as bandits, killers and cannibals be CN, though. Sometimes the border between the two is quite iffy - I'd say some of it is probably malice. A drow who is selfish only inasmuch as s/he wants to protect their life need not be evil.
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Why is everyone so down on this concept?
I blame the parents.
i've never actually done a wizard due to tier 1 status, i'm not a fan of overshadowing other players but wizard of some kind could work...ima go look at wizard for the first time since 3.5 first came out...
You don't need to be tier 1 as a wizard. One of the marks (IMHO) of a good wizard player is knowing when to exert yourself and (more importantly) when not to. And one of the nice things about wizards is, because they have such a powerful spell list, you don't need to make optimal choices along the prescribed development path. Yeah, sure, conjuration specialists are God,.... but you can be an enchanter if you like. You'll probably cry salt tears when you need to go into a crypt of undead, and you will cure to the heavens every time you run into a monster with Improved Iron Will, but that gives the sword-and-board fighter something to deal with so she doesn't feel overshadowed.
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As a player or GM I eye roll so damn hard when I see someone mention non-evil Drow that sometimes they get stuck.
As others have said, your justification is kind of weak for being not evil.
It's also worth noting on Golarion that Drow are essentially boogeymen that no one has heard of before. They almost never come to the surface. Even if you character decided not to be evil, it is just as likely for them to hide out in the dark caverns they know, rather than go the surface world that they know nothing about.
Honestly, if your family killed the person you loved it would be much more drow for the character to plot the complete disgrace and death of the offending family members, rather than run away from the problem.
I’ll forgo the petty eye roll lack of imagination rebuttal. The bottom line is no race with hundreds of thousands of individuals is going to lack variation.
The idea that there are NO Drow on the surface is not true at all:
Second darkness
Drow know about the surface and can have any number of connections to it if you use your imagination)
Drow/Elf war
Currently fighting a war in Varisia against the elves (city of Celwynvian in the Mierani Forest)
Lantern Bearer prestige class
Drow have an elf gate…where does it go?
Here are a few options for a Drow moving to the surface
Magical mishap
If you’re playing a caster perhaps you master, who is a teleportation expert, used you for an experiment. The experiment went sideways and now you are on the surface. You have no way home and there is little chance your mistress is spending any effort to find a lowly apprentice.
Cult worship
Your family worshiped a god forbidden by the Drow (neutral or chaotic neural god)
Option 1: the cult moves to the surface to be closer to their god
Option 2: the cult is discovered and you escape the purge. Moving upward to Nar-Voth you discover an exit to the surface. Do you take your chances to live free…
Captured
You where captured or perhaps sold to the Duergar as a slave. Through circumstance you get a chance to escape but your only option is up to the surface.
Soldier
You’re fighting the elves in the Mierani forest (or maybe the worldwound) and you heart isn’t in the conflict. You’re nothing more than a pawn in the noble’s great game. Your unit is nearly wiped out and you find a chance to slip away and live free….do you take it?
It’s easy to imagine that once outside the cruel reality of Drow society that an individual Drow could, and most likely would, change their behavior. You can easily imagine a neutral or chaotic neutral Drow living in and surviving in a neutral evil society.
If your group is okay with the concept don't let other peoples ideas of what 'should be' get in your way. It's a game so play something you enjoy.
Cult worship
Your family worshiped a god forbidden by the Drow (neutral or chaotic neural god)
Option 1: the cult moves to the surface to be closer to their god
Option 2: the cult is discovered and you escape the purge. Moving upward to Nar-Voth you discover an exit to the surface. Do you take your chances to live free…
Wouldn't even need to be neutral/chaotic neutral. Drow culture is pretty much set against anything that isn't a demon lord.
The drow noble House Shraen was marked for destruction by the other noble Houses for their worship of Urgathoa.
A character I really hope to play one day in Hell's Vengeance would be a drow who felt called by a non-standard demon lord. Obviously bucking the patron of your house would result in exile or death. But otherwise, still a normal CE drow. Probably a warpriest or oracle. Patron could also help explain why she went to the surface, such Pazuzu or Nergal, but I really liked Baphomet as well. Plan to return to found my own house.
But even a CE god/goddess that isn't a demon lord could get you in trouble double-quick in drow society.
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You shouldn't worry that much about Driz'zt. Rather, just make a character that YOU want to play and don't worry about conventions. If it ends up sharing X and Y similarities with Driz'zt, it doesn't actually matter. You are not any less of a roleplayer just for playing an overly-popular concept.
I guess all I will add is that it always strikes me as more fun (if the opportunity allows) to roleplay out the transition from evil to good - the redemption arc, so to speak. I'm fine with potentially good characters of evil races in my parties, but actually seeing the redemption is both fun and more appealing to other players. That's been my experience, atleast.
Indeed, it's one of the reasons I like playing Redeemer paladins: helping people with dark pasts find the light, or helping monsters like goblins and Drow be redeemed by Sarenrae, is something I REALLY enjoy.
Thus my suggestion to start as Evil and transition to Neutral or Good slowly. But again, I'm biased.
If it ends up sharing X and Y similarities with Driz'zt, it doesn't actually matter. You are not any less of a roleplayer just for playing an overly-popular concept.
I wouldn't recommend dual-wielding scimitars, but mostly because that's not actually very well supported by the rules.
(Sure, you could use effortless lace but then you're pretty vulnerable to dispel magic or sundering.)
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I love the idea of being part of a secret good aligned cult. Like, living in the Underdark you secretly believe that there's a sun somewhere and that you worship Serenrae. Secretly drawing pictograms of lense flares and dawn landscapes.
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There even has been an official archetype published recently that confirms the existence, or at least the possible existence of non-evil Drow communities.
That aside, there even is at least one official case of an orc that settled down to live a peaceful life with his human wife, not only non-evil, but a valiant paragon of good. A freaking orc from a race and society that is as chaotic and as evil as the drow can be good, but a drow can't?
And if that wasn't enough, Pathfinder has even got a redeemed demon. Indeed, that one was only because of direct divine intervention, but it is still baffling how a literal embodiment of evil can become good, but a drow somehow can't? (Since nothing hints at who the succubus in question was in her mortal life, funnily enough she could have been a drow.)
And do you remember Ragathiel?
Yes, the first drow were somehow created by the evil taint of Rovagug and elves can somehow still turn into drow, if they are especially vile and certain conditions are met, but the present drow have all been born like any other mortal race in Golarion and thus it makes no sense that they should be always chaotic evil without exception.
Do you groan whenever somebody wants to play a good Tiefling too? It is not all that much different from playing a Half-Drow, or Drow.
I don't know much about Drizzt, but I don't understand why some people think that every good (or non-evil) drow would be a copy of him. Archetypical characters exist for every race:
You want to play a dwarven fighter? Hello Gimli.
You want to play an elven archer? Hello Legolas.
A wizend old wizard? Hello Gandalf.
A hobbit thief? Hello Bilbo.
Ad nauseam.
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There are definitely nonevil drow out there. We're working on helping with that.
Also, sorry about the whole, uh, Winter Council thing. Oops.
The problem with playing a non-evil drow is three fold.
1) You're going against established lore for blatantly cynical reasons.
2) It's highly cliche to play an evil race as a non-evil character.
3) It takes a lot of work and cooperation with the group and GM because both drow and non-drow characters would never adventure with a non-evil drow.
This means that you would need to do the following in order to properly play a non-evil drow.
1) Write a very good justification for the character existing in the lore without it coming off as a Mary Sue character.
2) Give the characters highly distinctive characteristics that make them interesting and set them apart from other "Drizzt Clones."
3) Have a GM and group willing to work with you without undermining the lore and aspects that make drow appealing to you.
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Seriously though, I highly recommend reading the Lantern Bearers' section of the Adventurer's Guide. Nonevil drow aren't against the lore at all. ^_^
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@Cyrad: Did you read the description of the "Lantern Lighters"? Apparently not.
Lantern lighters were originally entrusted with secretly eliminating the drow and quarantining any knowledge of their existence, but in the new Lantern Bearer era, the lantern lighters have refocused their efforts on helping to rescue those imprisoned by the drow, or even to help individual drow who seek to escape the cruelties of their society for a chance at redemption on the surface. Of course, escape from drow society is only the beginning of a drow’s long and fraught path to redemption, and even the kindest or most repentant drow are likely to face prejudice from most of those who recognize her origins. In addition to their rescue efforts, lantern lighters often serve as sponsors for escapees and work to create pockets of civilization where redeemed drow can live in relative peace and safety by encouraging surface dwellers to cast aside the lurking shadows of prejudice and fear.
So, explain to me how this is "going against established lore", if it comes from those that established the lore in the first place. I mean, Paizo introduced a good orc and a redeemed succubus too - so why shouldn't there be good drow around? And what are those "cynical reasons" you are talking about?
Clichés are not necessarily a bad thing. It is cliché to play a wise old wizard too, or an aloof elven archer, or a grumpy dwarven fighter, but while these clichés are expected and encouraged, playing a good drow is reviled. Seems hypocritical to me.
It doesn't take any more work and cooperation than playing a half-orc, or a tiefling.
Speaking of half-orcs, how do you feel about half-drow?
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My character's father for the game my husband is running is a CN Drow. (my character is adopted).
He left because his sister was about to be killed. (They both managed to escape, though fleshwarping left her a little worse for wear).
The other part is a bit darker. He came from the socobenoth worshiping house, and he didn't approve of his mother's plans for him. So he stole a bunch of stuff and he and his sister ran away (and became pirates)
Nothing wrong with a non-evil dark elf. Frankly, more than half the offensiveness of Drizzt-and-clones is the "racially evil" garbage Golarion (and Forgotten Realms before that) use for dark elves in the first place. The rest is angsty "I'm the only one of my people who gets it" pap; the above simply makes it an easier model to realize. Non-evil dark elves don't seem that cliché when you have entire societies of dark elves with alignment distributions comparable to those on the surface.
I honestly have a harder time with non-evil drow than I do with non-evil undead. Especially taking into account the existence of Drizzt, I'm not sure why anyone would want to make that character.
Nothing wrong with a non-evil dark elf. Frankly, more than half the offensiveness of Drizzt-and-clones is the "racially evil" garbage Golarion (and Forgotten Realms before that) use for dark elves in the first place. The rest is angsty "I'm the only one of my people who gets it" pap; the above simply makes it an easier model to realize. Non-evil dark elves don't seem that cliché when you have entire societies of dark elves with alignment distributions comparable to those on the surface.
I mean....comparable to orc societies, where the mean is chaotic evil and demon worship is the state religion.
Its not at all like tieflings or half orcs who are, generally raised among baseline neutral societies. Very few of which make demon worship the state religion (cheliax excepted)