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What would be some cool combos to explore, and how would you see them being skinned?
For example, I could see a hybrid with Barbarian and Oracle as it's parents classes, since the Rage Prophet archetype was always sort of a waste of time.
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I'd like to see a Barbarian Druid hybrid.
Wizard ranger hybrid would also be interesting, like rough rugged arcane casters with interesting answers for everything, similar to an investigator but more arcane.
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I feel the biggest hindrance to more Hybrid classes is it's hard to not already have an archetype that covers that roll.
Enlightened bloodrager is a raging class that can cast off the ranger/druid list at the progression of the bloodrager.
Mad dog gets rage and a full progression animal companion.
Moon cursed barb and Prowler at worlds end bloodrager turns you into an animal when raging.
Flesheater gives you animal abilities when raging.
So Because of these, I feel there's very little design space for a class blending the two since an archetype already exists that plants some abilities of one class onto the other.
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Still need a non 3PP option for a PF Hexblade (Fighter/Witch maybe)
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A good arcane Rogue/Arcane Trickster style base class would still be cool. (wizard/sorcerer)/(Rogue/ninja)
Isn't that filled by the eldritch scoundrel? A Rogue trades half of it's sneak attack and some stuff for 6th level casting from the wizard list.
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Still need a non 3PP option for a PF Hexblade (Fighter/Witch maybe)
I have no idea what this 3PP class is. But how is it different from the Hexcrafter Magus? A weapon using class that gains hexes.
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I'm holding out for illusionist/interior decorator.
@Chess Pwn: I'm not entirely familiar with it, but from my understanding of hexblade, it was the 3.5 version of the magus, but it took a different approach.
Still need a non 3PP option for a PF Hexblade (Fighter/Witch maybe)I have no idea what this 3PP class is. But how is it different from the Hexcrafter Magus? A weapon using class that gains hexes.
Oooh good point, I have an aversion to Magus because of the name so I typically dismiss it out of hand. (Too many bad memories of people obsessed with Elven bladesingers and Gythyanki Gishes from 2nd Edition - which Magus is the direct descendant).
In my head, Magi, or the Wise Men, are scholars not warriors. So I feel aversion to someone using the name for a desire to have the best of both worlds. (mixing magic with sword play in one class without multiclassing)My idea of a Hexblade isn't a spellcaster so much as someone cursed by unluck that uses their ability to affect fate/luck as a way to weaken enemies. I would eliminate spells altogether (in my version).
You're absolutely right though. Hexblade was a 4 level caster 3/4 BAB that could curse enemies with unluck from Complete Warrior. Hexcrafter Magus is probably the direct PF interpretation.
Cavalier/Sorcerer: Mystical mounts, spontaneous caster, blood orders with a mix of martial and caster bonuses.
Cavalier/Sorcerer: Mystical mounts, spontaneous caster, blood orders with a mix of martial and caster bonuses.
Not sure what you mean by "Mystical mounts"
But it sounds like a Bloodrider Metamagic Rager bloodrager off of your qualifications of a mounted spontaneous caster with bloodpowers to boost martial, and the ability to add metamagic to your spells without raising the spell level.
Like, if there is legit design space I'm interested in finding it. So if my suggestions don't fill it explain why and that gives good reason for it to be it's own class... or a new archetype.
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Chess Pwn makes a good point about archetypes.
Still need a non 3PP option for a PF Hexblade (Fighter/Witch maybe)I have no idea what this 3PP class is. But how is it different from the Hexcrafter Magus? A weapon using class that gains hexes.Oooh good point, I have an aversion to Magus because of the name so I typically dismiss it out of hand. (Too many bad memories of people obsessed with Elven bladesingers and Gythyanki Gishes from 2nd Edition - which Magus is the direct descendant).
In my head, Magi, or the Wise Men, are scholars not warriors. So I feel aversion to someone using the name for a desire to have the best of both worlds. (mixing magic with sword play in one class without multiclassing)My idea of a Hexblade isn't a spellcaster so much as someone cursed by unluck that uses their ability to affect fate/luck as a way to weaken enemies. I would eliminate spells altogether (in my version).
You're absolutely right though. Hexblade was a 4 level caster 3/4 BAB that could curse enemies with unluck from Complete Warrior. Hexcrafter Magus is probably the direct PF interpretation.
IMO, the mesmerist would probably be a closer fit to the 3.5 hexblade than even a hexcrafter magus. Or possibly a hexenhammer inquisitor.
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Well besides a few options already mentioned, some sort of barbarian divine caster hybrid would be nice.
As for archetypes, I think they can only do so much, since ultimately you are limited to swapping out existing features from other classes. A full class has more room for development of new class features, as well as specific feats and items built for that class. Archetypes tend to be pumped out with little if any support afterwards, so that is why for more more major conceptual niches I would prefer a new class.
Well besides a few options already mentioned, some sort of barbarian divine caster hybrid would be nice.
As for archetypes, I think they can only do so much, since ultimately you are limited to swapping out existing features from other classes. A full class has more room for development of new class features, as well as specific feats and items built for that class. Archetypes tend to be pumped out with little if any support afterwards, so that is why for more more major conceptual niches I would prefer a new class.
I do like the idea of archetypes, but I find so few are as useful as their name's indicate. I feel they hamstring the base class by narrowing the focus to a pinpoint. And most attempts to multiclass archetypes fail because "A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature." I see so few Rogue archetypes trade out Sneak Attack for example, but almost all trade out Trapfinding and Trap Sense. I know the reason, but it's still extremely limiting.
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Inspired from another thread, A Bard/Paladin that gives up spells but adds increasingly effective buffs to their inspiration abilities (like mercies but not healing related)? And adds their charisma bonus to saves?
archetypes get to rely on a lot of support from the base class. Look at the new ACG and OA classes, how much support do they have in the form of items and feats?
for a divine barb all you need is a new archetype for bloodrager. Swap out bloodline for domain/mysteries/blessing, make it a divine caster, and there you go, a divine barb.
The other option would be to make a selfish divine skald archetype. swap the spell list to the warpriest, let it active it's selfish inspire rage as a swift action. It still gets the rage powers.
Because these proposed hybrids, especially anything divine, runs into niche problems. How do you make another 3/4 bab divine class feel different and worth having as it's own class when you already have 4 3/4 bab divine classes and many archetypes to make more 3/4 bab classes.
Inspired from another thread, A Bard/Paladin that gives up spells but adds increasingly effective buffs to their inspiration abilities (like mercies but not healing related)? And adds their charisma bonus to saves?
we have a paladin that trades smite for bardic performance and gets CHA to saves still. Does keep the paladin spells though.
Also have a paladin that also trades smite for a bardic performance like effect and this class has all of the buffs increased it's range to be a very unselfish paladin.
I do like the idea of archetypes, but I find so few are as useful as their name's indicate. I feel they hamstring the base class by narrowing the focus to a pinpoint. And most attempts to multiclass archetypes fail because "A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature." I see so few Rogue archetypes trade out Sneak Attack for example, but almost all trade out Trapfinding and Trap Sense. I know the reason, but it's still extremely limiting.Well besides a few options already mentioned, some sort of barbarian divine caster hybrid would be nice.
As for archetypes, I think they can only do so much, since ultimately you are limited to swapping out existing features from other classes. A full class has more room for development of new class features, as well as specific feats and items built for that class. Archetypes tend to be pumped out with little if any support afterwards, so that is why for more more major conceptual niches I would prefer a new class.
The issue with archetypes and hybrids are classes defining features.
Barbs rage and rage powers.Rogues do sneak attack.
cleric is domains and channel.
Bard inspire courage.
Paldin is smite, LoHs, and divine grace.
You'll notice that the paladin and bard archetypes that lose those features are considered worse or not really a paladin anymore. "might as well play X if you're thinking about playing this archetype." So most archetypes trade out the more minor features, that players don't identify AS the class.
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Fighter/Druid class that focuses exclusively on shapeshifting and smashing face in a variety of different monster forms. No spellcasting or Animal Companions or anything else.
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ALL of the classes rolled into one. We will call it the Omniclass. I want the omniclass to be so spread out that it can't be bad at anything or good at anything. It could be like that guys who stays in college for like 8 years full time without getting a degree because he keeps switching majors. They should have tons of highly circumstantial abilities that are used so rarely that they will be forgotten about when the right circumstance actually occurs. They should have a weird grab-bag of second-rate spells and a few mental abilities, but not enough to be very effective. They should have access to all skills as class skills, but only get about 4 skills points per level. They should be proficient with light and medium armor, but still have armor interfere with spell casting. And they should definitely be proficient with a random assortment of weapons that people don't actually use. O' ya they should also start out with less money than most of the other classes since they accrued a lot of student debt.
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Fighter/Druid class that focuses exclusively on shapeshifting and smashing face in a variety of different monster forms. No spellcasting or Animal Companions or anything else.
Metamorph? shapeshifting for hours and mutagen. shift away and smash the face
Fighter/Druid class that focuses exclusively on shapeshifting and smashing face in a variety of different monster forms. No spellcasting or Animal Companions or anything else.
Metamorph alchemist kind of does this.
I'd love an Alchemist/Witch hybrid that has Extract progression to 9th level extracts. Would be a specialized buffer/debuffer that used different Hex-bombs to debuff enemies and had abilities to easily share it's full 1-9 extract list with the whole party.
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Fighter/Druid class that focuses exclusively on shapeshifting and smashing face in a variety of different monster forms. No spellcasting or Animal Companions or anything else.Metamorph? shapeshifting for hours and mutagen. shift away and smash the faceMetamorph alchemist kind of does this.
You can't turn into animals. You can't turn into plants. You can't turn into elementals. You can't turn into dragons.
All the metamorph forms remain disappointingly human-shaped.
Fighter/Druid class that focuses exclusively on shapeshifting and smashing face in a variety of different monster forms. No spellcasting or Animal Companions or anything else.Metamorph alchemist kind of does this.You can't turn into animals. You can't turn into plants. You can't turn into elementals. You can't turn into dragons.
All the metamorph forms remain disappointingly human-shaped.
Which means you get to keep all of your equipment and even use upsized weapons. Also at level 9 you can get 6 natural attacks that do 2d6+grab because of monstrous physique.
It also has the potential to be one of the toughest archetype/builds out there.
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Fighter/Druid class that focuses exclusively on shapeshifting and smashing face in a variety of different monster forms. No spellcasting or Animal Companions or anything else.Metamorph alchemist kind of does this.You can't turn into animals. You can't turn into plants. You can't turn into elementals. You can't turn into dragons.
All the metamorph forms remain disappointingly human-shaped.
Which means you get to keep all of your equipment and even use upsized weapons. Also at level 9 you can get 6 natural attacks that do 2d6+grab because of monstrous physique.
It also has the potential to be one of the toughest archetype/builds out there.
You're missing the point.
The human-shaped alter self-typed shapeshifting doesn't interest me. Neither does the mutagen.
I want a character whose shapeshifting is a lot freer than that. Who can turn into a fire elemental to fight trolls, a tiny cat for infiltration, and then a tree to sleep because why not? And all that without the baggage of druidic language, spellcasting, or steroids.
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I would like a hybrid that replaces the mystic theurge.
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Preacher (Cleric/Bard): Bardic Performance + 6-level casting from the cleric spell list.
I wouldn't mind a preparatory psychic caster, like a wizard/psychic hybrid. Nor would I mind an Int-based divine caster, like a wizard/cleric hybrid.
This is where i most miss 2nd edition specialty priests and sphere access
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I think homebrewed specialty priest archetypes would be fun to make. Removing some armor and/or weapon proficiencies or limiting domains to create a specific type of priest for a particular god. Even changing the nature of channeling based on the deity's area of control could be an option. Of course for the PF core that would be exhausting. But a homebrew setting with a small pantheon would be perfect.
An Int-based bard//druid.
An oracle//sorcerer. Because cleric//wizard is SO played out! :-P
An alchemist//magus.
A paladin//ninja cultist.
A cleric//thief cultist.
A druid//monk wildshaping martial artist.
A cavalier//bard that specializes in leading in combat like Captain America, sharing Teamwork Feats and buffs.
A paladin//monk//ranger Buffy.
A paladin//ranger bodyguard specialist.
A monk//rogue that specializes in CMB stuff by adding sneak attack to CMB (obviously having a reduced rate of sneak attack, but with lots of attacks possible).
A ranger//monk that specializes in battlefield control.
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I could have sworn that I was in a thread like this a while ago, but I can't think of a suitable unique (or at least close enough to unique) search term to find it again without having to wade back through an enormous list of my own posts. Actually, here is one of them, but I thought I was in one more recently. A thread related to this and more recent: Wishlist for Archetypes.
Anyway, most of the following are actually archetypes rather than hybrid classes, but here goes:
Gunslinger Magus archetype -- like Myrmidarch, but tweaked further so that you don't have to dip in Gunslinger.
Hexrager: Full BAB/d10, 4/9 spellcasting, full progression Hexing Bloodrager archetype that replaces Uncanny Dodge and Bloodline Feats with Hexes and Bloodline spells with Patron spells, and delays Blood Casting and Eschew Materials to 5th level (rest of spellcasting progression is as normal) to get a Familiar at 4th, and trades out Improved Uncanny Dodge to support this.
Priest: Half-BAB/d6, 9/9 Cleric/Oracle spellcasting, divine equivalent of the Arcanist. Tweak the equivalent of Arcane Exploits to give back some of the flavor of 2nd Edition Specialty Priests.
Rage Prophet: Barbarian-Oracle hybrid, as has been mentioned above, but instead of shoehorning it into Bloodrager, back out all the way to Barbarian and Oracle and then recombine, making a totally new hybrid class, that has actual Barbarian Rage Powers (instead of Bloodrager Bloodline Powers) and a full Oracle Mystery (but reduced spellcasting).
Scholastic Sorcerer: Analogous to the Exploiter Wizard being an Arcanist-Wizard backcross hybrid, I'd also like to see an Arcanist-Sorcerer backcross hybrid (that is different from the Blood Arcanist -- instead add some Arcane Exploits to a Sorcerer).
Scholastic Summoner (including Scholastic Master Summoner sub-archetype): Summoner archetype that replaces spontaneous spellcasting with Wizard-style prepared spellcasting, and replaces Eidolon with an Evolved Familiar (that goes well beyond what you can get by taking the feat of the same name, but loses its Evolved characteristics when you have your Summon Monster spell-like ability active, unless you took the Scholastic Master Summoner sub-archetype, which is to the Scholastic Summoner what the Master Summoner is to the standard Summoner).
Sorcerous Magus: A spontaneous Charisma-dependent arcane casting Magus-Sorcerer hybrid that is different from the Eldritch Scion, rebuilt so that it doesn't seem like a shoehorn job, and using a Sorcerer Bloodline instead of a Bloodrager Bloodline (this can be better or worse, depending upon the particulars, but it gives more options). The required rebuild is serious enough that this probably needs to be an alternate class rather than an archetype, although an even bigger rebuild to make an actual hybrid class is not out of the question.
Sorcerous Witch: A spontaneous Charisma-dependent 9/9 Witch spell list casting, full Hex progression hybrid archetype that hybridizes Sorcerer and Witch and is different from the Ley Line Guardian Witch archetype. Not sure whether it is better to build this as a Sorcerer archetype or a Witch archetype.
Thassilonian Specialist Psychic Wizard (Runelords Reloaded): Meant to exist alongside Thassilonian Specialist Wizards, but the Runelords themselves would be warping reality with their minds, without the need for words or gestures (although they would usually add them for dramatic flourish, and might even gain some additional benefit for doing so with their Specialty School). These would have hybrid arcane and psychic spellcasting. (I actually took a really quick and dirty shot at this, but it's not satisfactory as is -- I really want to swap out the whole Psychic Discipline for a Sin Magic/Arcane School Discipline, but that's a HUGE amount of work and might be only done properly as an alternate class or maybe even a true hybrid class.)
Warrior Mage (Magus archetype): Complementary to the more martial-focused Myrmidarch, some Magi focus more on the arcane side of their training. These are the Warrior Mages.
Alchemist/Ninja - Alex mercer style biological abomination who devour other creatures for their ki and steal their physical abilities. Though, should be much more stealth focused and more The Thing rather than just "I am a master of eviserating everything"
Bard/Occultist = Artificer
Barbarian/Oracle class which can turn into a demi-god state where they are a destructive avatar of a mystery.
Druid/Summoner - Sort of a planar druid, a master of the outerplanes
Druid/Medium who is the most versatile shapechanger.
Monk/Occultist who invests his mental focus into his chakras to produce effects
Rogue/Sorcerer who is basically a supercharged aristocrat who can tap into their bloodline to make them supernaturally proficient in certain skills
I would like a hybrid that replaces the mystic theurge.
There are tons of archetypes for this. Wizard has a white mage, arcanist has a white mage, Ecclesitheurge cleric, lore spirit shaman, ancient lorekeeper oracle, false priest sorcerer.
lots of archetypes blur the line.
Preacher (Cleric/Bard): Bardic Performance + 6-level casting from the cleric spell list.
We already have the evangelist cleric which has bardic performance and 9th-level casting from the cleric spell list.
I wouldn't mind a preparatory psychic caster, like a wizard/psychic hybrid. Nor would I mind an Int-based divine caster, like a wizard/cleric hybrid.
It seems like Paizo has decided that all psychic casters are spontaneous, so a prepared one probably wont happen.
I think homebrewed specialty priest archetypes would be fun to make. Removing some armor and/or weapon proficiencies or limiting domains to create a specific type of priest for a particular god. Even changing the nature of channeling based on the deity's area of control could be an option. Of course for the PF core that would be exhausting. But a homebrew setting with a small pantheon would be perfect.
sounds like Ecclesitheurge cleric and variant channeling.
I'll echo the Barbarian/Druid. I'd like some sort of 2/3 casting 3/4 BAB character that is aligned with "nature magic" but it focuses more on the wildshape and casting aspects of the druid (rather than being a pet class like the hunter).
I'd like a Mesmerist/Witch hybrid too. Something that gets to reduce saves and affect things normally immune to mind-effecting effects plus hexes.
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I would like to see some kind of monk/wizard hybrid.
Combining the disciplines of both body and mind in the pursuit of a perfected soul. Could possibly have something similar to magus spell combat, but a flurry of blows + self buff, maybe?
Actually, I would welcome a Monk/Magus hybrid that isn't underwhelming. Somebody made an Arcane Fist Magus archetype that seemed pretty good, but now I can't find it. (Google comes up with several hits, but none of them match what I am thinking of, which was on a web site in a section named something like "Hybrid Archetypes" or "Multiclass archetypes", although the www.pathfindercommunity.net page section of the latter name doesn't have it.)
I'll echo the Barbarian/Druid. I'd like some sort of 2/3 casting 3/4 BAB character that is aligned with "nature magic" but it focuses more on the wildshape and casting aspects of the druid (rather than being a pet class like the hunter).
That's a hunter archetype though. Feral HunterActually seems like a pretty neat archetype, if not max optimization.
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Gunslinger/Alchemist, a Full BAB/4th level extract class that can use firearms and bombs and call it the Grenadier. It was actually the brainchild of a friend of mine who built it and let me use it for Skulls and Shackles; it was actually very well-balanced and made for a lot of fun.
I've been tossing the idea around that Inquisitors are overstuffed with class features and they could get away with splitting it in two. To me, the Inquisitor seems to pull in two directions: "cunning" and "smashing," but if you want to focus on the one, you'll have to give up on the other. A heavy hitter will hardly have the stat points to also be good at face duties and identifying enemies, while someone who wants to make max use of his skill points will have to suffer in the physical department. So I propose the following:
Trickster
Inquisitor/Rogue combination:
- Gets somewhat delayed sneak attack, though not as much as the Slayer.
- Ton of skill points, d8 hit dice, three-quarter BAB, Rogue weapon/armour proficiencies.
- Can pick certain Rogue Talents like the Slayer, but can also pick up Cunning Initiative, Solo Tactics, Monster Lore, and other things.
- No spellcasting.
Juggernaut
Inquisitor/Fighter(?) (for lack of a better class) combination:
- 4+ int skill points, d10 hit dice, full-BAB.
- Judgment, Bane, some bonus feats (not as much as the Fighter, obviously).
- Paladin spellcasting progression?
- Both get Stern Gaze, Detect Alignment, Track, and Domains/Inquisitions.
Maybe I should give the Juggernaut some of the Trickster's class features, the Trickster still has a ton of features. Solo Tactics could fit well with the bonus feats. And maybe it doesn't need Judgment as much, since it's already full-BAB.
This way, the Trickster still has a decent damage output with good sneak attack progression and has a lot of features for face/party knowledge options. And the Juggernaut is mostly an upgrade of the Fighter, but still kinda boring, I feel. He probably needs some more class features. But I feel like Bane is a right fit here, although it might push him over the top, damage-wise. Maybe a watered-down Bane.