What other Hybrid classes would you like to see?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Guy St-Amant wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
Guy St-Amant wrote:


Snip
new, just not used with PC classes (and spontaneous casters). It is less powerful than 6/9 casting, but better than 4/9, and unlike 4/9, it come into play at 1st level.

I know, but prestige class design doesn't usually need to take NPC classes into account; it DOES need to take PC classes into account, but in practice usually doesn't do a very good job with any PC classes that are not 9/9 casters or non-casters.

I thought we were talking into turning a PrC into a Base Class or two...

Who was?

That's about the opposite of the topic.

Now a combination monk/Psionic energy generating class would make a good prestige class to Anime up fighters and monks who are not keeping up at higher levels.

Silver Crusade

Goth Guru wrote:
Now a combination monk/Psionic energy generating class would make a good prestige class to Anime up fighters and monks who are not keeping up at higher levels.

So something like this?


N. Jolly wrote:
Goth Guru wrote:
Now a combination monk/Psionic energy generating class would make a good prestige class to Anime up fighters and monks who are not keeping up at higher levels.
So something like this?

Yeah, like that.


ChaiGuy wrote:

Derklord: "Yes to 3/4 BAB and d8 HD, but I would probably use Magus armor progression (medium at 7th level, heavy at 13th level).

With the Alchemist list, fervored True Strike would be the signature ability. With the Bard list, it would probably be fervored Bladed Dash. Both actually sound interesting to play."

I agree that the Magus armor progression is better, and I have used in the newest version of the class. I also agree with your thoughts on the spells you mentioned. It is part of the reason why I have made the newest test builds with the Bard list since I think fervor true strike would focus the class too much on str based 2 handed weapons with power attack. I think the Bard list would make a more balanced class, with more variety of potential characters. This class seems to be more of a Magus/Warpriest hybrid, but I suppose that is neither here or there.

I have created a level progression chart to try to weed out dead levels. I have added an arcane pool (as the Magus) to fill in dead levels (a later starting level at 6). I have also moved all of the bonus feats down by 1 level, to help eliminate dead levels.

Level progression:

L1: Weapon and armor proficiencies, spells
L2: Bonus Feat
L3: Armor Training
L4: 2nd level spells, Fervor
L5: Bonus Feat
L6: Arcane pool, extra Fervor
L7: 3rd level spells, Armor training, Medium armor casting
L8: Bonus feat, extra fervor
L9: (dead)
L10: Arcane pool, level 4 spells, extra fervor
L11: bonus feat, armor training, arcane pool can add special weapon abilities
L12: extra fervor
L13: Heavy armor casting, 5th level spells
L14: Bonus feat, arcane pool
L15: Armor training
L16: extra fervor, 6th level spells
L17: Bonus feat
L18: Arcane pool
L19: (dead)
L20: Capstone, extra Fervor

{. . .}

Arcane Pool adding special weapon abilities seems awfully late, and level 11 is awfully crowded, while level 9 is dead except for advancing spellcasting and the basics -- why not move this ability to level 9?

Also, level 19 (currently dead) is exactly one Armor Training period after the previous Armor Training -- maybe make this Armor Mastery?

Guy St-Amant wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

{. . .}

I know, but prestige class design doesn't usually need to take NPC classes into account; it DOES need to take PC classes into account, but in practice usually doesn't do a very good job with any PC classes that are not 9/9 casters or non-casters.
I thought we were talking into turning a PrC into a Base Class or two...

We are, but I don't want to turn ALL prestige classes into base classes (hybrid or otherwise), and I'd like to avoid making the newly converted class unfriendly to remaining prestige classes (although admittedly this may be a lost cause, given that it is a 6/9 caster or a 4/9 caster or maybe one version for each).


UnArcaneElection wrote:
ChaiGuy wrote:

Derklord: "Yes to 3/4 BAB and d8 HD, but I would probably use Magus armor progression (medium at 7th level, heavy at 13th level).

With the Alchemist list, fervored True Strike would be the signature ability. With the Bard list, it would probably be fervored Bladed Dash. Both actually sound interesting to play."

I agree that the Magus armor progression is better, and I have used in the newest version of the class. I also agree with your thoughts on the spells you mentioned. It is part of the reason why I have made the newest test builds with the Bard list since I think fervor true strike would focus the class too much on str based 2 handed weapons with power attack. I think the Bard list would make a more balanced class, with more variety of potential characters. This class seems to be more of a Magus/Warpriest hybrid, but I suppose that is neither here or there.

I have created a level progression chart to try to weed out dead levels. I have added an arcane pool (as the Magus) to fill in dead levels (a later starting level at 6). I have also moved all of the bonus feats down by 1 level, to help eliminate dead levels.

** spoiler omitted **
{. . .}

Arcane Pool adding special weapon abilities seems awfully late, and level 11 is awfully crowded, while level 9 is dead except for advancing spellcasting and the basics -- why not move this...

I agree with you, I also thought that 11 seemed crowded, and I just couldn't think of how to fix levels 9 and 19. I think your proposal works great. I'll be sure to revise this in the future. :)


ChaiGuy wrote:
I think fervor true strike would focus the class too much on str based 2 handed weapons with power attack.

Actually, I believe the opposite to be true (well, sorta). Bladed Dash is awesome with a two-handed weapon (additional attack is best with the biggest weapon, duh). While psoudo-punce at 4th level is awesome to fix TWF's dependancy on full attacks, the accuracy is rather low and the other usual problems (higher weapon cost, higher feat cost, high Dex requirement, best damage increasing feat sucks for it) aren't fixed - the Bard list is rather lacking when it comes to damage increases (Good Hope and Dance of a Hundred Cuts). Playable, and better at TWF than most classes, but should be weaker than 2H.

Fervor'd True Strike on the other hand starts pretty weak as using it on a full BAB attack at main ability score is not overly strong. What True Strike is awesome for is combat maneuvers and iterative attacks. A build with Greater Trip, Vicious Stomp, and Ascetic Style could be pretty powerful.

Right now, the class looks a bit too similar to the Magus. Fervor already is a pool, so adding a second pool class feature is rather weird. I would like some selectible class feature. You could add something similar to Magus Arcanae (some costing Fervor uses, some being passive, a limited form of Armor Training could be selectible as a passive one) but that's even more Magus. So I would suggest something else.

Right now, as you've noticed yourself, the hybrid class feels like 'generic martial with bonus feats' mixed with 'generic arcane caster', and not like Fighter/Wizard. So I would make a fusion of the two big selectible class features: At first level, one selects a Fighter weapon group, and gets a form of Arcane School tied to it. Not actual magic school (as the list isn't seperated into schools), but a set of 'School Powers' (plus bonus spells, possibly) unique to each weapon group. Those school powers are only active/activatable when wielding a weapon from that group (with a lingering effect for the thrown group); some of them could have additional effects that can be activated by spending Fervor uses.
For instance, Flails group could be similar to Air elemental school, with a a 'shoot lightning' ability at second level whose damage can be increased by spending fervor, a fly-related ability at eigth level, and a whirlwind related ability at 14th level. Double Weapon group could have an ability that adds enhancement bonuses to the second end if the first one has them, Close group could have some stealth related powers, Thrown group would return the weapon at fifth level, et cetera.
Bonus feats would be gained at every third level (as with a Warpriest), Weapon Training a fifth level and every sixth level therafter, and bonus spells at 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, and 16th level. That covers every level but 19th.

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Why not an additional Armor Training at 19th level? Or an Armor Mastery-type ability?


Derklord wrote:
ChaiGuy wrote:
I think fervor true strike would focus the class too much on str based 2 handed weapons with power attack.

Actually, I believe the opposite to be true (well, sorta). Bladed Dash is awesome with a two-handed weapon (additional attack is best with the biggest weapon, duh). While psoudo-punce at 4th level is awesome to fix TWF's dependancy on full attacks, the accuracy is rather low and the other usual problems (higher weapon cost, higher feat cost, high Dex requirement, best damage increasing feat sucks for it) aren't fixed - the Bard list is rather lacking when it comes to damage increases (Good Hope and Dance of a Hundred Cuts). Playable, and better at TWF than most classes, but should be weaker than 2H.

Fervor'd True Strike on the other hand starts pretty weak as using it on a full BAB attack at main ability score is not overly strong. What True Strike is awesome for is combat maneuvers and iterative attacks. A build with Greater Trip, Vicious Stomp, and Ascetic Style could be pretty powerful.

Right now, the class looks a bit too similar to the Magus. Fervor already is a pool, so adding a second pool class feature is rather weird. I would like some selectible class feature. You could add something similar to Magus Arcanae (some costing Fervor uses, some being passive, a limited form of Armor Training could be selectible as a passive one) but that's even more Magus. So I would suggest something else.

Right now, as you've noticed yourself, the hybrid class feels like 'generic martial with bonus feats' mixed with 'generic arcane caster', and not like Fighter/Wizard. So I would make a fusion of the two big selectible class features: At first level, one selects a Fighter weapon group, and gets a form of Arcane School tied to it. Not actual magic school (as the list isn't seperated into schools), but a set of 'School Powers' (plus bonus spells, possibly) unique to each weapon group. Those school powers are only active/activatable when wielding a weapon from that group (with a...

As always your post is exceptionally insightful. I suppose that I should have been more specific about true strike, or perhaps I wanted to mention it since it was a spell that you focused on in a previous response. The 1st level spell in the alchemist list that was most in my opinion might push the class to str based 2 handed is the spell shield (although it certainly helps 2 weapon fighting too). Shield + fervor true strike could be very strong. If anything else I just thought fervor bladed dash seemed more interesting than a +20 to an attack, although as you noted it also favored str 2 handed weapons.

Your also right that the magus arcane pool is not really a good fit for this class, it was really just a plug for a few dead levels. I think that it is time in the development of this class to start thinking of unique mechanics for it. I think your proposal for fighter weapon groups with magic infused power is cool, I think I'll try to expand in a more defense oriented direction to make it more different from the Magus (which seems very offense focused to me).

Something more in vein with Dreamscared Presses Aegis from Ultimate Psionics. The Aegis is basically a class with a magic suit of armor you can customize with a variety of options.

@ Smilodan: I'll keep this in mind, I imagine that it will be a part of the new class ability to enhance it's armor with magic. It'll take some time for me to nail down a rough draft for this, but I'll be working on it. :)


For a simple revision to the EK (hybrid) I suppose it's time for the name change, perhaps to Rune Knight. A different magic list would probably be in order too, I'll have to consider the options.

new mechanics:
Rune mastery: Whenever a Rune Knight casts a spell that targets a shield, or armor, the spell takes effect at +1 caster level. If the spell has one or more metamagic feats applied, she reduces the total level adjustment to the spell by 1 (minimum 0).

Armor Runes: A Rune Knight may inscribe magical runes on a suit of armor or a shield as a full round action, they may do this a number of times per day equal to 1/2 Rune Knight level + int mod. The runes duration is listed in their description. Erase affects runes as magical writing. A Rune Kight learns 2 runes at 1st level and may learn one additional rune at 2nd level and every 2 levels thereafter.

Advanced Armor Runes: Starting at level 7 the Rune Knight may select from the Advanced Armor Rune list when selecting an armor rune.

Master Armor Runes: Starting at level 13 the Rune Knight may select from the Master Rune list when selecting an armor rune.

Armor Rune Perfection at level 19

I think I'll remove the fervor ability, replacing it with runes that are triggered by certain effects such as:

Rune of Elemental Protection: When you take Acid, Cold, Electricity, fire or sonic damage you may expend this rune as a free action and gain energy resistance 10 against this damage for a duration of 1 round per caster level. At caster level 7 this energy resistance increases to 20 and at caster level 11 it reaches it's maximum resistance at 30 (I'm guessing this would be a Advanced Armor Rune).

Rune of Mental Fortification: When you fail a save that gives you the Confused, Frightened, Panicked, or shaken may expend this rune to gain another saving thow verses this effect (perhaps with a bonus of + 1/2 caster level) Advanced Armor Rune probably

The Medium and Heavy armor casting become Advanced and Master Armor runes respectively. This also allows Rune Knights that may not benefit from these armor casting increases to gain something to help them like dex to damage builds and archery builds.

Rune of Medium Armor Atunement: This rune allows you to channel arcane magic through it for 1 hr per caster level. When worn by anyone else these runes become inactive (this should probably be true of all runes, unless there is a rune that allows other runes on a set of armor / shield usable by others. Maybe this would make a good level 6 ability, excepting certain runes like Medium Armor Atunement). Advanced Armor Rune

Persistent Armor Runes: Some Runes marked by a * can be worn by others and activated by them (maybe limited to Armor Runes only, no Advanced or Master rune sharing)

I don't have time currently to create the entire Armor Rune, Advanced AR, Master AR or the AR perfection ability now, but it does show the direction for the class that I'm thinking of (it's kind of like the cleric dwarven archetype Runepriest).

Sacred Armor would be renamed, I just didn't want to copy and past the whole thing.

New level progression:
Edited: L1: Rune Mastery, Armor Runes, spells, proficiency
L2: Bonus Feat, extra Rune / day
L3: Armor Runes, Armor Training
L4: 2nd level spells, extra Rune / day, Sacred Armor
L5: Bonus Feat, Armor Rune known
L6: Extra Rune / day, Persistent Armor Runes
L7: 3rd level spells, Armor training, Advanced Armor Rune
L8: Bonus feat, extra Rune / day, Sacred Armor
L9: armor rune known
L10: level 4 spells, extra Rune / day
L11: bonus feat, armor training, armor rune
L12: extra Rune / day, Sacred Armor
L13: Master Runes, 5th level spells
L14: Bonus feat, Extra Rune / day
L15: Armor training, Extra Rune known
L16: extra Rune / day, 6th level spells, Sacred Armor
L17: Bonus feat, Extra Rune Known
L18: Extra Rune/day
L19: Armor Mastery, Extra Rune known
L20: Capstone, extra Rune / day, Sacred Armor


^In order to work the way you want, the things that you activate when something unpleasant hits you need to be Immediate Action, not Free Action.

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You might even want to give it the ability to use both a swift action AND an immediate action during the same round.

I can see runes that give DR 5/- (and later 10/-, 15/-, and 20/-), bonuses to CMD, SR, Energy Resistance, Energy Immunity, save re-rolls (with bonuses), darkvision/see invisibility/truesight, Dodge bonus to AC, featherfall, retributive damage like fireshield, short range teleports to avoid hits, becoming incorporeal to avoid hits, just plain moving to avoid hits, etc. etc.


@ UnArcaneElection: Thank you for this clarification, I'll be sure to correct this when I expand on the Runes.

@ SmiloDan: I'll certainly think of the proposed ability of using swift and immediate actions during a round and what level that ability would best be introduced.

I also like many of your proposals for runes, I'll try to consider the best ways to make these runes, and at what level they would be most appropriate.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Thanks, I made a class once that was built around a bunch of 1 round buffs and some auras. This was way back during the magus playtest. I was making a class that used magic to fight, but not necessarily spells.


Spiritualist/Paladin or Cleric or War priest

A holy man divine caster who has an agathion/archon/azatas/Demon/Devil/Deamons/psychopomp/protean/inevitable

Depending on the god they follow there could be archetypes for other more out there outsiders.


Gunslinger/Monk

Essentially, an honorable fighter who uses his Ki to give him near supernatural skill with Firearms. Similar to the Zen Archer Archetype, but with some gunslinger deeds to spend Ki points on.

I'd also love a Magus/Gunslinger

Essentially, Guns being combined with mystical power sources is always fun to me.


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You should remember that most hybrid class are not just mixes of their parent classes. Each of them inspire their features from them but each also has a unique feature that justify them being class of their own.


Barbarian/Commoner - super mad about his lot in life but no skills to do anything about it.

Drunken Rager/Ranger/Commoner - favored enemies must be spouse, children, pets.

Monk/Bard - spends his time demonstrating mediocre martial arts at local fairs.


I'm sure it's been mentioned but we need a proper eldritch knight class
it's dumb that we dont.

these are already options but they take system mastery, when really the magical knight is like a staple of the genre that people have been trying to do since 1st edition D&D

Wizard 8/Fighter 2/EK10 BAB +16 CL 17 SPL 9 Magical Lineage CL19 (aka the bonus attack)
Wizard 9/Fighter 1/EK 10 BAB +15 CL 18 SPL 9 Magical Lineage CL 20 (aka the standard)
Wizard 8/Magus 2/EK 10 BAB +15 CL 17 SPL 9 Magical Lineage CL 19 (plus spell combat, spellstrike, limited arcane pool) (AKA this as a class might kill magus)

Let's go with what i call "the standard"

a 3/4 BAB full 9 level casting at wizard progression (and since no school it casts less 1 less spell/day/lvl than a specialist wizard, same as a universalist)
5 bonus feats, at the same level as swashbuckler/gunslinger
Diverse Training

because paizo likes goodies at every level
1st level -BAB +0, 1st level spell, spellbook, fighter proficiency
2nd level - Diverse Training, Arcane Strike, Arcane Armor Training
3rd level - 2nd level spells
4th level - bonus feat
5th level - 3rd level spells
6th level - Weapon Training (as fighter ability)
7th level - 4th level spells
8th level - bonus feat
9th level - 5th level spells
10th level- Arcane Armor Mastery (can switch it if already taken)
11th level- 6th level spells
12th level- bonus feat
13th level- 7th level spells
14th level- Spell Critical (as EK ability)
15th level- 8th level spells
16th level- bonus feat
17th level- 19th level spells
18th level- Spellstrike (cause why not at this level)
19th level- Arcane Strike and Armor Training with same action (still cant quicken with armor)
20th level- bonus feat, capstone

edit
personally, I think it would be cool to use the 2nd, 6th, 10th 14th, 18th level to give them something like the helknight signifier armor training instead of what I put there
like
Arcane Combat Training: At 2nd level you gain Arcane Armor Training and Arcane Strike as a bonus feat.
At 6th level and every 4 levels after the bonus from Arcane Armor Training bonus increases by 5%. In addition at 10th level you can move at your normal speed while weaping medium and heavy armor, and at 16th level you may activate Arcane Armor Training as an immidiate action
At 6th level you can forgo +1 from your Arcane Strike to add the Corrosive, Flaming, Frost or Shock quality to your weapon
At 14th level you can forgo +2 to add the Corrosive burst, Flaming Burst, Icy Burst or Shocking Burst quality to your weapon
At 18th level you can activate arcane strike and arcane armor training with the same swift action. If you do this it must be as a swift action.

(that last line is because some things reduce arcane armor training or arcane strike)

edit 2
even if you give them noting at 2,6,10,14
they at least get to automatically scribe 2 spells in their spellbook each level. That's much better than the edritch knight having to buy scrolls to get his spells, because wealth varies wildly from wealth by level in homebrew campaigns.


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On first glance, that seems like the strongest class in the game by a significant margin.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
On first glance, that seems like the strongest class in the game by a significant margin.

its litterally no different that wizard 9/fighter 1/ EK 10, other than it casts less spells per day of each level

it's less powerful than wizard 9. fighter 2 EK 10


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James Gibbons wrote:

Let's go with what i call "the standard"

a 3/4 BAB full 9 level casting at wizard progression

I was gonna post a "stopped reading there", but then I noticed the date. Well played!


James Gibbons wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
On first glance, that seems like the strongest class in the game by a significant margin.
its litterally no different that wizard 9/fighter 1/ EK 10, other than it casts less spells per day of each level

Not exactly. Over that standard build you also get:

-A higher effective fighter level (20v11 and it comes online much earlier)

-Weapon Training, which has some pretty cool goodies attached to it now

-Spellstrike. Really late but still.

-A significant feat advantage. Your class receives 8 total feats (5 bonus 3 selected) compared to the five of w9/f1/ek10, but on top of that the EK needs to burn two feats for favored prestige class/prestigious spellcaster and a trait on magical knack to try to keep pace. Plus not needing to take magical knack means that your class can take a higher value magic trait like magical lineage too. So ultimately a 5 feat/1 trait upshot.

but most importantly: An extra spell level you don't lose because the EK has to take a fighter dip. This is a big deal because it means the EK is effectively on sorcerer progression as soon as they take that fighter level and your class is on wizard progression. It also mitigates that spells/day advantage too and removes it entirely for 8th/9th spells.

And on the flip side it just loses your familiar, school powers and I guess the ability to take wizard discoveries.

So yeah, put it on the sorcerer progression, make it a d8, maybe replace diverse training with something more like the magi's fighter training. Etc.

Derklord wrote:
I was gonna post a "stopped reading there", but then I noticed the date. Well played!

Yep, clearly an April Fool's joke. Paizo would never publish a class with 3/4th BAB and full spell progression.

That would just be absurd.


There are four existing arcane full casters, none of which have 3/4 BAB. Calling something that at the moment doesn't exist "the standard" does indeed sound like a joke to me.

­
Also, while I'm at it, #1 of "I forgot to post this days ago":

UnArcaneElection wrote:
Derklord wrote:
Well, there's a reason there is no full BAB class with 6/9 casting in Pathfinder.
And this brings up the question of why (other than legacy compatibility) classes were designed with 3/4 BAB + d8 HD and 9/9 spellcasting.

I think you answered your own question. There are a lot of questionable choices in the design of 3.X's (core) classes (including why a 3/4 BAB class with 9/9 casting has two good saves while a 3/4 BAB class with zero spellcasting only has one, or why there are 3/4 BAB martials in the first place). But this is even more reason to heed the upper limit's of class design - if full BAB + full casting or three good saves + casting was too hot even for the 3.X class designers, we really shouldn't touch that!

UnArcaneElection wrote:
a 6/9 truncated version of it should be fine on a full BAB + d10 class that wasn't very rich in non-spellcasting class features.

From a balance perspective yes, from a class design perspective no, as such a class would have few interesting class features and lots of empty levels.


Derklord wrote:
Calling something that at the moment doesn't exist "the standard" does indeed sound like a joke to me.

Given the context of converting a PrC to a base class when most typical builds for that PrC hit both, calling it a standard doesn't seem that gratuitous to me. I mean it's literally right there in the build he referenced. Wiz 9/Fighter 1/EK 10 has 15 BAB and 9th level spells. Hell, Wiz 8/Fighter 2/EK 10 has 16 BAB and ninth level spells.

The class he linked has a lot of issues, but calling the idea of using a PrC's most typical build paths as reference points when building a base class version of said PrC a 'joke' seems rather bizarre.
­

Quote:


From a balance perspective yes, from a class design perspective no, as such a class would have few interesting class features and lots of empty levels.

That's a more reasonable point, though as much an argument against 9th level spellcasters in general than anything else.

also:

Quote:
Well, there's a reason there is no full BAB class with 6/9 casting in Pathfinder.

can't occultists do that?


swoosh wrote:
Yep, clearly an April Fool's joke. Paizo would never publish a...

I think the druid skates by as "just on the okay side of unreasonable" by virtue of using the druid spell list instead of the wizard/sorcerer spell list. But I don't think this is really a design space that's all that interesting to explore.

swoosh wrote:
Quote:
Well, there's a reason there is no full BAB class with 6/9 casting in Pathfinder.
can't occultists do that?

Costs them an implement, which is a pretty significant cost since you're stuck with Abjuration and Transmutation until level 6, with your fourth school coming at level 10. This is certainly a strong choice for a specific melee combat focused occultist, but with the occultist's spell choice being already extremely limited as it is, it's a meaningful cost that feels like an appropriate limit (haven't played one Psychic Anthology yet, but I want to.)

But probably the Occultist with the Trappings of the Warrior panoply is probably the best cleanest version of the "I am a skilled warrior who is also adept at magic" concept. People will probably chafe at the "got to use a shield" part, but I guess there's always shield brace.


swoosh wrote:
Given the context of converting a PrC to a base class when most typical builds for that PrC hit both, calling it a standard doesn't seem that gratuitous to me.

Rereading (or actually reading it properly for the first time, to be honest), it was indeed my mistake - he meant the standard EK path, not any standard base class skeleton.

I apologize, and go back to "stopped reading there".
­

swoosh wrote:
That's a more reasonable point, though as much an argument against 9th level spellcasters in general than anything else.

True, especially Wizard and and Cleric are not well designed. Actually, many CRB classes are badly designed. 9th level casting with a strong spell list is so strong that there's almost no room for other class features.

Note that I wrote the section directed at UnArcaneElection at least a week ago and not in response to James Gibbons.

­
#2 of "I forgot to post this days ago":

Sarvis the Buck wrote:
I'd also love a Magus/Gunslinger

Despite the name, Eldritch Archer Magus works with firearms, too. I don't need to point out that if you yourself compare your proposed hybrid class to an archetype, it probably should be one of those, right?

Verdant Wheel

I'd like to see a performance-based Divine casting class. Bards are awesome, but there's a niche of hymn-singing choirs and bugle-playing heavenly hosts that's unfilled. Bard/Paladin of course; that's something that could be seriously effective.

And yes, there's an archetype (Faith Singer) that gives a domain of sorts, but it's still Arcane in nature.

Where's my holy music uplifting my allies? I'd like to sing songs of praise so hard that nonbelievers convert on the spot and golden light falls from the heavens as I summon an angelic choir to wreak musical vengeance upon the foes of my faith.

I can replicate that with archetypes to an extent, but it would be nice to have a new Hybrid Class that has the theme, the abilities, and some new stuff to boot, such as being able to Divine Grace through a performance. Aura of Courage and Inspire Courage could be fused together, Smite Evil could be a new kind of Bladethirst-style performance and, of course, we'd have a chance to finally say with utmost confidence... "We're on a mission from God."


swoosh wrote:
James Gibbons wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
On first glance, that seems like the strongest class in the game by a significant margin.
its litterally no different that wizard 9/fighter 1/ EK 10, other than it casts less spells per day of each level

Not exactly. Over that standard build you also get:

-A higher effective fighter level (20v11 and it comes online much earlier)

-Weapon Training, which has some pretty cool goodies attached to it now

-Spellstrike. Really late but still.

-A significant feat advantage. Your class receives 8 total feats (5 bonus 3 selected) compared to the five of w9/f1/ek10, but on top of that the EK needs to burn two feats for favored prestige class/prestigious spellcaster and a trait on magical knack to try to keep pace. Plus not needing to take magical knack means that your class can take a higher value magic trait like magical lineage too. So ultimately a 5 feat/1 trait upshot.

but most importantly: An extra spell level you don't lose because the EK has to take a fighter dip. This is a big deal because it means the EK is effectively on sorcerer progression as soon as they take that fighter level and your class is on wizard progression. It also mitigates that spells/day advantage too and removes it entirely for 8th/9th spells.

And on the flip side it just loses your familiar, school powers and I guess the ability to take wizard discoveries.

So yeah, put it on the sorcerer progression, make it a d8, maybe replace diverse training with something more like the magi's fighter training. Etc.

Derklord wrote:
I was gonna post a "stopped reading there", but then I noticed the date. Well played!
Yep, clearly an April Fool's joke. Paizo would never publish a...

A friend of mine did a 3/4 BAB 9 level arcane caster with spell strike...

Used arcanist instead of wizard, which has the blade adept archetype. No idea if he used a special archetype for the fighter level.

Seemed like the best EK build I ever saw.


I doubt we would see a 6/9 Arcane full BaB class before a 6/9 Divine full BaB class.

Shadow Lodge

The three Hybrid Classes Id most like to see would be:

1.) Warpriest + Bloodrager type, although an Archtype that grants Warpriest a few Blood Rage abilities might be better? A Warpriest/Skald possibly as sell.

2.) A Cleric/Rogue type as well for a Divine Trickster sort, similar too an Inquisitor, but not exactly.

3.) A "divine Magus" Cleric/Magus more focused on offensive than self buffs like the Warprirst, especially if it aimed at specializing in Deity Favored Weapon, Cure/Inflict spell combat, and Channel Smite type builds.


Guy St-Amant wrote:
I doubt we would see a 6/9 Arcane full BaB class before a 6/9 Divine full BaB class.

And I'm not sure when we'd see either. Warpriest only has 2/3 BAB... I guess I'll stick with paladins for holy warriors.


There's currently a 6/9 (effectively) full-BAB psychic caster out there in the form of the Occultist with the Trappings of the Warrior panoply. The mitigating factor is the Occultist's fairly short spell list and limited spells known, as well as the fact that you can only cast abjuration and transmutation spells before level 6 (then you add one more school, and another at level 10.)

I doubt we're going to see anything vastly more more extreme on the "magic-using warrior" front than that any time soon.

But I think the baseline for comparison is something like
At level 5:
-Limited to 3 schools of magic
- 6 spells known
- Martial weapon proficiency and medium armor
- handful of class features of varying utility.


Hello my beautiful fans. I noticed that arcane 3/4 bab 9 level casting got nothing but love.

so I polished it. This example is based on a pretty bizarre deviation from the standard eldritch knight. Magus 2/Wizard 5/Hellknight Signifier 3/Eldritch Knight 10.

you can find the table for the Magus/Wizard/HS/EK Here and the table for my Hybrid Class Eldritch Kngith Here

Please Tell me what you think.

Class ability of the Eldritch Knight Hybrid:
Arcane Combat Expertise
At 2nd level the Eldritch Knight gains Arcane Strike and Arcane Armor Mastery as bonus feat. He does not need to meet the prerequisites for these.
At 6th level when an Eldritch Knight wears armor he reduced his armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and decreases his spell failure chance by 5%.
At 6th level when an Eldritch Knight uses his Arcane Strike he can forgo +1 of the damage bonus to instead add the corrosive, flaming, frost or shock quality to his weapon.
These qualities increase his weapon's effective enhancement bonus, and does not allow them to excese +10.
At 10th level and every 4 levels therafter he reduces his armor check penalty by an additional 1 and his arcane spell falure chance by an aditional 5%. He can also move his full speed in medium or heavy armor.
At 10th level he can activate either his Arcane Armor Mastery or his Arcane Strike as an immediate action.
At 14th level he can instead reduce his damage bonus by +2 to instead add the corrosive burst, flaming burst, freezing burst or shocking burst to his weapon.
At 18th level the Elderitch Knight can active his Arcane Strike and Arcane Armor Mastery with the same swift action. He can not use this ability to activate both simultaneously with a different kind of action.
Arcane Combat Mastery
At 20th level if the Eldritch Knight used his swift action to activate either Arcane Strike, Arcane Armor Mastery or both he can use his spell critical ability as a free action instead of a swift action.

Eldrich Knight Hybrid analysis and comparison:
When we compare these options we find that the Eldritch Knight Hybrid Class is more balanced at each level than the wizard/magus/eldritch knight/Hellknight signifier.
I'm going to compare the features and progressions of the hybrid class to the multiclass, as well as the cleric as a reference to a 3/4 BAB 9 level caster, and other hybrid classes
BAB The multiclass version has a very slow start, same as a half BAB class (like single class wizard) untill 8th level, lags then doesnt catch up untill level 17. The Hybrid Class is 3/4, equivalent to cleric and magus
The fortitude and will saves are the multiclasses strong saves. It's fortitude and reflex saves lag behind a single class, will saves are much stronger than normal for early levels.
Hybrid has standard good fort/will progression, same as cleric and magus
The Multiclass gets scribe scroll at 3rd level and bonus feats at levels 7, 9, 11, 15 and 19. The hybrid gets arcane strike and arcane armor at 2nd level but must choose which to use until 18, and bonus at 4, 8, 12, and 16, 20
The levels at which the multiclass gets its feats vary a little bit based on choosing magus or wizard first, and EK or HS first, but all remain realatively similar to swashbuckeler progression
This nets the hybrid one feet over the multiclass at 20, but arcane strike is esentially the replacement for arcane pool, and is strictly worse. Other than that hybrid's bonus feat progression is same as swashbuckler.
The multiclass gains a wierd medly of class features. He can use spell combat and spell strike for any spells on the magus list at level 1st, and can use spell combat with 6th level spells at 14th, 2 earlier than magus
Spellstrike and spell combat say when he casts a spell from the magus spell list, not when he casts a magus spell
Diverse Training is better than the magus but is on par for a hybrid class
Both multiclass and hybrid get an arcane bond. The hybrid must bond with a melee weapon, this encourages melee combat. This is the only feature explicitly melee though so it's not restrictive.
The Multiclass can use light armor at first level (first leather, than mythril chain), Than Mythril fullplate at level 10
The hybrid gains arcane strike similar to arcane pool, and arcane armor ability at level 2, allowing for mithral fullplate at level 6.
Allowing fullplate earlier distracts from the ability to wear mythral chain shirt at level 10, without the need for the swift action for arcane spell failure. The chain shirt option decreases AC by 5
The hybrid class's armor and weapon abilities take up the same action, and thus cause the caster to choose between casting spells and attacking in melee. He can not do both like the magus, or multiclass can
In addition to this his ability to use a swift action to cast a quickened spell is more limited than a full classed wizard. If armored he must use a stilled metamagic aswell, effectively making quicken cost +5 levels
Furthermore he would only be able to cast a quickened stilled spell on a turn he did not cast a spell with his standard action, unless unarmored.
Spells; the multiclass has some spellcasting issues. one trait can mitigate the lowered caster level but he gains 8 cantrips, and with ability modifier considered 9-11 1st level spells.
Gaining 2nd level spells 1 level after magus isnt that bad for the multiclass. The multiclass gains 1 more wizard spell slot of each level than the hybrid because of his school.
Conclusion. The multiclass does an arguably better job of being a magus. The hybrid class does not take the role of the magus. The magus is a blend of melee and spell, the hybrid is a wizard who's school is combat
The Hybrid is designed to specifically encourage having to choose either casting or weapon attack. The swift action is used for both arcane strike and arcane armor, as well as quicken spell if not wearing armor
Quicken spell is the most powerful tool in a wizards metamagic toolbox. It means two spells per round. The capstone of the hybrid encourages armor use, causing the additional spell level increase for still, quickened spells
The part that may seem worrysome is level 18, 19 and 20. This allows at the cost of a swift action to both attack and cast a spell. At level 20 the hybrid can get a spell off every critical they confirm.
(These options are Spellstrike = spell plus one melee attack if it's range touch. A second spell from spell critical if that crits. OR Full attack for three attacks and three chances to crit for a free action spell.)
As a capstone it is better than normal spell critical, it is afterall level 20. The thing that makes this different than the magus is that they must crit for it to work, and that forces a wizard into matrial combat
The ability to stay out of martial combat is one of the ways a wizard defends it's self. The hybrid could /potentially/ cast more than one spell, but only if he engages in martial combat. for high crit range it must be MELEE
The full wizard on the other hand can reliably cast a spell and a quickened spell every round. What the capstone and bonded weapon do is encourages the hybrid to be more vulnerable a nudge at level 1 and push at 19/20


I'd like to see a paladin/anti-paladin hybrid.

In other words, a more nuanced and PC-compatible antipaladin. One who doesn't just take everything from the paladin entry, and grant the opposite instead.

In opposition to the LG paladin, he's not CE, but LE. In opposition to the paladin's smite evil, he doesn't smite good, but chaos. In opposition to the paladin's aura of good, he doesn't have an aura of evil, but an aura of law.

Some abilities he'd draw from the antipaladin list, others from the paladin list. Some, I would hope, would be entirely different.

The goal wouldn't be to have a mirror image for the Evil Forces to have a champion to oppose the Champion of GoodTM. He'd be a good rival to the paladin not because their abilities are all optimized against each others', but because precisely they wouldn't be. They wouldn't smite each other for double effect, for example. The antipaladin couldn't smite the paladin at all, while the paladin would only get a regular smite, but wouldn't even be able to bypass his DR.

A class who could actually make sense in a party and wouldn't be hard-coded into being disruptive.

Shadow Lodge

I believe there are a few Hellknight builds that do just that. I do agree, though, I think that it would have been much better to have the AntiPaladin be LE rather than CE. LE just seems like a much more substantial threat all around, but one that is a bit more party friendly.


DM Beckett wrote:
I believe there are a few Hellknight builds that do just that. I do agree, though, I think that it would have been much better to have the AntiPaladin be LE rather than CE. LE just seems like a much more substantial threat all around, but one that is a bit more party friendly.

There's the corrupter for non-CE antipaladin, but the flavor and abilities are off.

The Hellknight Commander PrC is... weird. I don't get the obsession with devils. Why are anti-chaos characters so obsessed with LE outsiders? He's gotta kill one to even join the order. It's a base that can be used, of course, but feels like it should be a whole paladin variant class, and not a PrC.


DM Beckett wrote:

The three Hybrid Classes Id most like to see would be:

1.) Warpriest + Bloodrager type, although an Archtype that grants Warpriest a few Blood Rage abilities might be better? A Warpriest/Skald possibly as sell.

2.) A Cleric/Rogue type as well for a Divine Trickster sort, similar too an Inquisitor, but not exactly.

3.) A "divine Magus" Cleric/Magus more focused on offensive than self buffs like the Warprirst, especially if it aimed at specializing in Deity Favored Weapon, Cure/Inflict spell combat, and Channel Smite type builds.

1) A hybid of a hybrid and a hybrid?!.... Cannot remotely see that happening

2) Possible... but probably not. Would be too close to an Inquisitor (or one of its archetypes) and IMO fails on 2 other vital counts

a) Does it actually have a real niche

b) Can you make minimum 8 archetypes out of it

3) Possible, but again unlikely. I see what you mean but its too close to a Warpriest as it stands and it fails the archtype test IMO....

I would genuinely be very surprised if there were any more hybrid classes, especially since the ACG wasn't the best received book in the first place and some of the existing hybrids claerly have design issues.


A EK type seems unlikely too....its design space means its guarnateed to tread all over the magus

Shadow Lodge

doc roc wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:

The three Hybrid Classes Id most like to see would be:

1.) Warpriest + Bloodrager type, although an Archtype that grants Warpriest a few Blood Rage abilities might be better? A Warpriest/Skald possibly as sell.

2.) A Cleric/Rogue type as well for a Divine Trickster sort, similar too an Inquisitor, but not exactly.

3.) A "divine Magus" Cleric/Magus more focused on offensive than self buffs like the Warprirst, especially if it aimed at specializing in Deity Favored Weapon, Cure/Inflict spell combat, and Channel Smite type builds.

1) A hybid of a hybrid and a hybrid?!.... Cannot remotely see that happening

2) Possible... but probably not. Would be too close to an Inquisitor (or one of its archetypes) and IMO fails on 2 other vital counts

a) Does it actually have a real niche

b) Can you make minimum 8 archetypes out of it

3) Possible, but again unlikely. I see what you mean but its too close to a Warpriest as it stands and it fails the archtype test IMO....

I would genuinely be very surprised if there were any more hybrid classes, especially since the ACG wasn't the best received book in the first place and some of the existing hybrids claerly have design issues.

I see it more as a Paizo/Pathfinder flaw than anything. They have real trouble with interesting or uncommon Archetypes/concepts for most Divine classes, and Im not sure off the top of my head, including all hard covers between APG to Occult Advebture the Core Cleric class would pass your Archetype Test, and if so, only barely.

The main two issues with the ACG where that it was very clear in the early days which ones the different developers loved and wanted to focus on and which they didnt, and secondly the entire issue with it being unfinished at release.

Both the "Divine Magus" and "Divine Trickster" are concepts that have been asked for for a long time, but never really presented. I can honestly pretty easily see 8+ Archetypes for each, and while on one hand, would almost simply suggest making an Archetype or two for them, the Cleric and Warpriest are too stiffled to make that really work well. It would just take too much complete rewriting for an Archetype, or be like most existing ones that are very lackluster.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I sort of wonder if 'treading on the design space' is even a particularly good argument in a game that has classes like the sorcerer, oracle, arcanist, psychic, cavalier, gunslinger, swashbuckler, skald and etc. in it. If you can squish all of those in, you can fit a divine magus or eldritch knight.

Yeah, there's inevitably going to be design overlap between two class concepts, but when the existing class fails to deliver on a certain character concept and designing an archetype would require gutting the class it's built on anyways... so what?

Ditto with the argument about archetypes. I mean just look at the Cavalier's.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Grimmy wrote:

What would be some cool combos to explore, and how would you see them being skinned?

For example, I could see a hybrid with Barbarian and Oracle as it's parents classes, since the Rage Prophet archetype was always sort of a waste of time.

Sorcerer Druid,

Spontaneous divine nature driven spellcaster who's magics improve their wildshaping capabilities adding arcane infused special abilities to the wide variety of shapes the druids wildshape ability allows, and eventually incorporating forms that the druid normally doesn't get access to through wild shape.

or picking a bloodline and gaining the ability to take the forms of your ancestor, while gaining ever more powerful abilities from said ancestor both in human and wild shape form.

9th level spellcasting from the Sorcerer Spell-list, Wild shaping, new forms for Wild shape like Giant, Dragon, Genie, all based on the bloodline you pick, unique spell-like abilities related to the bloodline. Something like that, maybe 3/4 BAB and D8 Hit Dice with 1 good save.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

bloodline themed polymorphing sounds really cool.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
swoosh wrote:

I sort of wonder if 'treading on the design space' is even a particularly good argument in a game that has classes like the sorcerer, oracle, arcanist, psychic, cavalier, gunslinger, swashbuckler, skald and etc. in it. If you can squish all of those in, you can fit a divine magus or eldritch knight.

Yeah, there's inevitably going to be design overlap between two class concepts, but when the existing class fails to deliver on a certain character concept and designing an archetype would require gutting the class it's built on anyways... so what?

Ditto with the argument about archetypes. I mean just look at the Cavalier's.

I have to agree. Pathfinder has already been "treading on Design Space" since the APG, (if not long before with 3.5 options).

Id actually rather that they have more of it so that every time there is a thread like " help me make my <class> do <this or that>" half the responces are not "just play this other class instead".


DM Beckett wrote:
Id actually rather that they have more of it so that every time there is a thread like " help me make my <class> do <this or that>" half the responces are not "just play this other class instead".

Wait, what? You realize that that's an argument against more classes, right? Because the more classes there are, the bigger the chance that a different class is better at any given job. You should really be against more classes and for more archetypes!

DM Beckett wrote:
I see it more as a Paizo/Pathfinder flaw than anything. They have real trouble with interesting or uncommon Archetypes/concepts for most Divine classes, and Im not sure off the top of my head, including all hard covers between APG to Occult Advebture the Core Cleric class would pass your Archetype Test, and if so, only barely.

I'd say that's a "we didn't want to change the badly designed 3.X classes too much" problem. If a class only has two class features apart from full casting, it's hard to replace something! Only more reason's not to make more full casters, to be honest!

DM Beckett wrote:
2.) A Cleric/Rogue type as well for a Divine Trickster sort, similar too an Inquisitor, but not exactly.

So, what Rogue stuff do you want? Also, isn't "similar, but not exactly" kinda the definition of archetypes?

­
@James Gibbons: You still didn't fix any of the problems. You should stop comparing only the level 20 numbers, because no one gives a s+%& about level 20. Compare the numbers throughout all levels. Your hybrid class has better BAB most of the levels, better saves most of the levels, a huge amount of more feats, and full wizard spell progression which as far as I know isn't even possible with regular multiclassing. You also don't seem to have a single selectable class feature and I really don't see how to make archetypes for that class.

­
#3 of "I forgot to post this days ago":

ChaiGuy wrote:
For a simple revision to the EK (hybrid) I suppose it's time for the name change, perhaps to Rune Knight.

I wouldn't call that a "simple revision", that's an entire different class. It's rather similar to my concepts for defensive hexes on the "spell-less warrior with hexes" I proposed earlier in this thread.

To put it bluntly, I don't really like your concept. I think you're trying to push one specific and narrow playstyle and try to make a class out of it. A proper class needs multiple possible flavors, multiple possible (mechanical) directions, and multiple imaginable archetypes.
It's a medium BAB 6/9 caster with zero offensive class features apart from spells.

Dark Archive

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I'd just like to say that, to me, any commentary along the lines of "That is/should be an Archetype/PrC" seems to be unhelpful and against the spirit of what this thread was started to be.

To argue that design space is limited and that an idea is 'to close' to another idea, or re-implements another idea, is in the end wrong. By that logic, Disney should never have made Lion King, since the story is Essentially just Hamlet. It's been done, so doing it again has no merit and cannot be novel or interesting? Hogwash.

There are only three base classes.

Weapon-hit guy
Skill specialist
Spell caster

These are Fighter, Rogue, and your choice of Wizard or Cleric.
The other of Wiz or Cleric is an 'Alternate Class'. Change the spell list, change the class features a little, but still functionally the same class.
Sorcerer and Druid are also alt classes.
Barbarian and Monk are alt-Fighters with a new mechanic.
Bard, Paladin, and Ranger are Hybrid classes.
Bard - Rogue/Wizard
Paladin - Fighter/Cleric
Ranger - Fighter/Druid

Really, you could make a paladin by alternating levels of Fighter and Cleric and getting your DM to approve like two homebrew feats to provide Smite and Lay on Hands.

So, all that aside, just as one could argue that Magus is an expanded and more interesting version of the Eldritch Knight PrC, I think Mystic Theurge could be expanded into a more interesting 20 level base class. 2/3rds spell progression on both arcane and divine, with some different mechanic that rewards them for essentially alternating between arcane and divine spells.

Barbarian/Gunslinger (in the same way a Swashbuckler is Fighter/Gunslinger). Essentially, a Barbarian who gets a 'Grit' pool (possibly called Fury) and a selection of Deeds usable only while raging. Built toward either two handed weapons, or bashing weapons.

Dark Archive

DM Beckett wrote:

The three Hybrid Classes Id most like to see would be:

1.) Warpriest + Bloodrager type, although an Archtype that grants Warpriest a few Blood Rage abilities might be better? A Warpriest/Skald possibly as sell.

2.) A Cleric/Rogue type as well for a Divine Trickster sort, similar too an Inquisitor, but not exactly.

3.) A "divine Magus" Cleric/Magus more focused on offensive than self buffs like the Warprirst, especially if it aimed at specializing in Deity Favored Weapon, Cure/Inflict spell combat, and Channel Smite type builds.

I love the idea of a Cleric Rogue hybrid. Half divine casting (Ranger spell progression), access to one domain, some sort of Channel Divinity power. Sneak attack is altered to d4's, but against Undead and Evil Outsiders does d8's. Sneak attack doing radiant damage at least against undead and outsiders, maybe always does radiant? Probably fewer skills.


i would also like to see some kind of Warlock, with a customizable eldritch blast, and few spell-like abilities that are usable indefinitely, with better ones becoming available at higher levels... The Vigilante Warlock archetype was a good compromise in a since, with limited spellcasting and a progressively customizable mystic bolt, but it did have some glaring flaws in my opinion (the range of mystic bolt was way to short and literally put you in melee range.) but over all if combined with the right prestige class or even 3rd party resources became very interesting.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

TiwazBlackhand wrote:


So, all that aside, just as one could argue that Magus is an expanded and more interesting version of the Eldritch Knight PrC, I think Mystic Theurge could be expanded into a more interesting 20 level base class. 2/3rds spell progression on both arcane and divine, with some different mechanic that rewards them for essentially alternating between arcane and divine spells.

Barbarian/Gunslinger (in the same way a Swashbuckler is Fighter/Gunslinger). Essentially, a Barbarian who gets a 'Grit' pool (possibly called Fury) and a selection of Deeds usable only while raging. Built toward either two handed weapons, or bashing weapons.

I think one could design a Mystic Theurge base class and still give it 9 level casting. Maybe start out with 2 9th level spell lists, and maybe gain access to more spell lists as you advance?

Level Spell Level
1. 1
4. 2
7. 3
10. 4
12. 5
14. 6
16. 7
18. 8
20. 9

A Fury Rager sounds fun, but there are already Rage Powers that let you do fun things when raging. However, combine that with Nimble and maybe Con or Cha to AC, and you could make a cool Sword & Sandals Berserker or Gladiator. Maybe a way to get more rage by killing and/or critting, and you could have a very fun class on your hands.

Shadow Lodge

Derklord wrote:
swoosh wrote:

Yeah, there's inevitably going to be design overlap between two class concepts, but when the existing class fails to deliver on a certain character concept and designing an archetype would require gutting the class it's built on anyways... so what?

Ditto with the argument about archetypes. I mean just look at the Cavalier's.
DM Beckett wrote:
Id actually rather that they have more of it so that every time there is a thread like " help me make my <class> do <this or that>" half the responces are not "just play this other class instead".
Derklord wrote:
Wait, what? You realize that that's an argument against more classes, right? Because the more classes there are, the bigger the chance that a different class is better at any given job. You should really be against more classes and for more archetypes!
!

It's not really against (or for) more classes at all. Rather I was saying I would rather they open up the design space for classes to help allow for more classes to cover different concepts, even if it steps on the toes of another class to do so.

DM Beckett wrote:
I see it more as a Paizo/Pathfinder flaw than anything. They have real trouble with interesting or uncommon Archetypes/concepts for most Divine classes, and Im not sure off the top of my head, including all hard covers between APG to Occult Advebture the Core Cleric class would pass your Archetype Test, and if so, only barely.
Derklord wrote:
I'd say that's a "we didn't want to change the badly designed 3.X classes too much" problem. If a class only has two class features apart from full casting, it's hard to replace something! Only more reason's not to make more full casters, to be honest!

While I agree, that's honestly no excuse this late in the game, and Pathfinder Unchained basically outright killed it. Besides, in the case of the Cleric, it wasn't at all that it was a badly designed class. It was the way that Paizo handled it. 3E/3.5 had a lot of amazing things for the class, while Pathfinder has gone out of it's way to stifle it's design space, and paint it into a corner. So, I'd actually say it would be more true to say "Pathfinder took a perfectly fine class and implemented very bad designs for it, resulting in it being very difficult to fix later down the road".

DM Beckett wrote:
2.) A Cleric/Rogue type as well for a Divine Trickster sort, similar too an Inquisitor, but not exactly.
Derklord wrote:
So, what Rogue stuff do you want? Also, isn't "similar, but not exactly" kinda the definition of archetypes?

Realistically, just about the only thing I'd take from the Inquisitor is the Skill Points, Weapon/Armor Proficiencies, and a few mechanics to add Wisdom Mod to few things, and almost literally making it a Cleric Rogue Multiclass, with a mind towards a few of the shinys the Arcane Trickster PC gets. In a lot of ways the class would sort of play like the Warpriest, where it's mainly about self buffing and not party healing/buffing. Concepts and Archetypes could be anything from a Combat Medic to a religious spy to a holy assassin to a cultist infiltrating other faiths to thief's guild/pirate chaplain to an "urban cleric". (6/8 right off the top of my head). A specialist/expert Undead Hunter, and going the Alchemist Route rather than Rogue, DIVINE BOMBER makes an easy 8 Archetypes and that was about 1 minute of thinking and typing.

Shadow Lodge

TiwazBlackhand wrote:


I love the idea of a Cleric Rogue hybrid. Half divine casting (Ranger spell progression), access to one domain, some sort of Channel Divinity power. Sneak attack is altered to d4's, but against Undead and Evil Outsiders does d8's. Sneak attack doing radiant damage at least against undead and outsiders, maybe always does radiant? Probably fewer skills.

The one things I'd probably want to change would be to make this a 6th level caster, along the lines of the Bard/Inquisitor/Warpriest. Ranger/Paladin just feels like too little/too late, especially considering just how many Cleric Spells just suck.

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