What other Hybrid classes would you like to see?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think something that is part Mutagen and part Wild Shape would work for the Alchemist/Druid. Maybe something more akin to what the Hunter gets with Animal Focus where you're not actually becoming something other than yourself, just becoming in tune with your primal nature/some animals.

Should it be self-applied or a communal effect, though?


Something fun could be a Barbarian/Psychic or Medium where the rage is actually possession by another being or a darker alter ego with a completely different personality. Give it 4th level psychic casting and access to its own brand of rage powers.

Silver Crusade

UnArcaneElection wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
A Fighter/Bard or a Fighter/Rogue in non-3rd party format, something to blend the tons of skills with martial prowess in a balanced sane fashion without non-optimal archetype options...

For that matter, I'd like to see the Fighter redone. Instead of having to wait until at least 5th level to get some skills with the kludgy (although currently much needed) Versatile Training (to a lesser extent 3rd level with Adaptable Training), I'd like to see the Fighter just outright get 4 + IntMod skill ranks per level (or maybe even 6 + IntMod skill ranks per level). (Don't they teach anything other than weapon swinging and armor wearing in boot camp?)

THEN let's talk about Fighter hybrids with skill classes.

Same thing for other classes that have 2 + IntMod skill ranks per level, except for Intelligence-based classes (this currently means Intelligence-based casters).

I'm thinking the easiest solution to fighter skill points isn't a new class or an archetype. It would be a new feat: Extra Skill Ranks. It's like Toughness for skill ranks instead of HP. And fighters get enough bonus feats that they'd be able to take it once or twice.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I think an Alchemist/Druid would be a neat Naturalist or Natural Philosopher class. Intelligence-based divine casting, lots of Knowledge and Craft skills, plus Heal, Spellcraft, and Survival.


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SmiloDan wrote:
I think an Alchemist/Druid would be a neat Naturalist or Natural Philosopher class. Intelligence-based divine casting, lots of Knowledge and Craft skills, plus Heal, Spellcraft, and Survival.

I wasn't even considering it being Intelligence-based, but now that you say that... Yeah, wow.

Naturalist sounds like a great name for the class, too. Naturalist or Herbalist.

Maybe there's a way to make the Heal skill more useful to this hybrid class via a discovery? Or to get the effects of Clever Wordplay or Precise Treatment via discovery?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Maybe a Heal check that does Lay on Hands healing + Int modifier?


First, the tea, infusions, poultices can be applied to others as long as the base spell could.

The animal spirit mutagens can only be self applied without the proper discovery. They would take on animal qualities at the cost of equal human qualities. You can't use tools while having bear claws. Constitution is key because it lasts as long as rage would. A snout full of teeth makes it hard to talk, but you already committed to combat. Maybe at low levels they take a were rat like form, later a were wolf like form, then were tiger or were bear. There would be no actual lycanthropy, no damage resistance/silver, and the effect of basic rage. Because of the transformation, they should not lose any hit points when they come out of it, except excess hits above their normal hit point total.


Fromper wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
A Fighter/Bard or a Fighter/Rogue in non-3rd party format, something to blend the tons of skills with martial prowess in a balanced sane fashion without non-optimal archetype options...

For that matter, I'd like to see the Fighter redone. Instead of having to wait until at least 5th level to get some skills with the kludgy (although currently much needed) Versatile Training (to a lesser extent 3rd level with Adaptable Training), I'd like to see the Fighter just outright get 4 + IntMod skill ranks per level (or maybe even 6 + IntMod skill ranks per level). (Don't they teach anything other than weapon swinging and armor wearing in boot camp?)

THEN let's talk about Fighter hybrids with skill classes.

Same thing for other classes that have 2 + IntMod skill ranks per level, except for Intelligence-based classes (this currently means Intelligence-based casters).

I'm thinking the easiest solution to fighter skill points isn't a new class or an archetype. It would be a new feat: Extra Skill Ranks. It's like Toughness for skill ranks instead of HP. And fighters get enough bonus feats that they'd be able to take it once or twice.

Well the "extra skill rank per level" feat exists. Blanking on the name. I think it was added in the Villian Codex. So I suppose a Human Fighter with that feat is now up to par in 'noncombat' adventuring capabilites.


Now that I'm thinking about it, I'd really like to see a Bard / Sorcerer hybrid class. The combination of music and magic has always appealed to me, and there are a few interesting ways in which they could be combined. I mean, one option would be to simply combine the Bloodline aspect of the Sorcerer in there. However, I'm more inclined to be interested in how the bardic performances might create a stronger magical effect to those of his group that are able to hear it. A Mass Bear's Strength, See Invisibility, or even Cure Light Wounds? And it would also be great if their spell list wasn't cut down to the bone (or deeper), allowing them a few more offensive spells. The thematic beauty of a "Spellsinger" (or similar name) singing an operatic stanza that calls forth an Ice Storm is rather pleasant. Think of it as the more magical, less martial version of the Skald.


I'm loving the idea of a ki master occultist/monk. Not sure it would need to be a hybrid but it would be a big archetype if done right since you would need 7 different chakras worth of ki powers to unlock.

Silver Crusade

Rosc wrote:
Fromper wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
A Fighter/Bard or a Fighter/Rogue in non-3rd party format, something to blend the tons of skills with martial prowess in a balanced sane fashion without non-optimal archetype options...

For that matter, I'd like to see the Fighter redone. Instead of having to wait until at least 5th level to get some skills with the kludgy (although currently much needed) Versatile Training (to a lesser extent 3rd level with Adaptable Training), I'd like to see the Fighter just outright get 4 + IntMod skill ranks per level (or maybe even 6 + IntMod skill ranks per level). (Don't they teach anything other than weapon swinging and armor wearing in boot camp?)

THEN let's talk about Fighter hybrids with skill classes.

Same thing for other classes that have 2 + IntMod skill ranks per level, except for Intelligence-based classes (this currently means Intelligence-based casters).

I'm thinking the easiest solution to fighter skill points isn't a new class or an archetype. It would be a new feat: Extra Skill Ranks. It's like Toughness for skill ranks instead of HP. And fighters get enough bonus feats that they'd be able to take it once or twice.

Well the "extra skill rank per level" feat exists. Blanking on the name. I think it was added in the Villian Codex. So I suppose a Human Fighter with that feat is now up to par in 'noncombat' adventuring capabilites.

I didn't know about that one. Thanks for pointing it out.


While Hybrid classes are weaker than a gestalt version of their parent classes, Hybrid classes are by no means weak. Lets take a look at Slayer since I think it is the literally best example of how Hybrid classes work.

They slayer is the combination of a Ranger and a Rogue. Its primary ability is a non-target specific favored enemy that functions at half power. The second ability is 6d6 of sneak attack dice, just over half of the rogue's normal dice. Then the Slayer gains a combination of Rogue Talents, Ranger Combat Styles, and several new slayer exclusive talents.

Look at how smooth that class combination is! An even 50/50 from the first two classes main abilities, level-up abilities merged into a single pool with a few extras added into the fray, and the dead levels filled out with additional abilities. That design is crystal clean!

If you want to make another effective hybrid class, follow that guideline. 50/50 on the main abilities, combine the relevant selectables into a single pool, pick 1 or 2 extra goodies to throw in from the parent classes, and then fill out the remaining levels.

Bam, design done. I love the stalker for this reason alone, you can clearly see Paizo's methodology right in that class's design.


I didn't mention the Alchemist / Gunslinger though I've had the idea several times... and looking back on this thread, I'm not the only one. Also have to say the idea of the Alchemist / Druid has a great flavor as well.

I'd also like something of a hybrid of the Occultist and the Summoner. Consider it in the vein of a Lovecraftian ideal; an individual who's power resides in these little baubles and items, even as he can call these nasty beasties from other planes to fight his physical confrontations for him. There's a case to be made either for an eidolon, or for the summon monster ability inherent to the Summoner. It makes for an individual who may seem fairly harmless one moment, and the next they're grasping at a glowing amulet while two or three beings from another plane spring up to block your path towards them.


Llyr the Scoundrel wrote:
I'd also like something of a hybrid of the Occultist and the Summoner. Consider it in the vein of a Lovecraftian ideal; an individual who's power resides in these little baubles and items, even as he can call these nasty beasties from other planes to fight his physical confrontations for him. There's a case to be made either for an eidolon, or for the summon monster ability inherent to the Summoner. It makes for an individual who may seem fairly harmless one moment, and the next they're grasping at a glowing amulet while two or three beings from another plane spring up to block your path towards them.

In my mind, occultists/summoner would be based around binding outsiders to his will considering occultist has magic circle powers.


Milo v3 wrote:
Llyr the Scoundrel wrote:
I'd also like something of a hybrid of the Occultist and the Summoner. Consider it in the vein of a Lovecraftian ideal; an individual who's power resides in these little baubles and items, even as he can call these nasty beasties from other planes to fight his physical confrontations for him. There's a case to be made either for an eidolon, or for the summon monster ability inherent to the Summoner. It makes for an individual who may seem fairly harmless one moment, and the next they're grasping at a glowing amulet while two or three beings from another plane spring up to block your path towards them.
In my mind, occultists/summoner would be based around binding outsiders to his will considering occultist has magic circle powers.

That's definitely one angle to take it at... and you could easily say that is the nature of the summon monster ability. Also, if the character in question is a bit more of a good sort, they're calling down aid from divine hosts. Of course, in answering your question I was wondering about the particular mechanics of what you were meaning by "binding", and it suggested a potential archetype off of this hypothetical hybrid. One that uses a binding that de-buffs the target, not unlike some of the Witch's hex. I hadn't originally thought of a hex in that fashion, and I rather like it.


Llyr the Scoundrel wrote:
I didn't mention the Alchemist / Gunslinger though I've had the idea several times

I love the idea of an alchemist/gunslinger. Although I could see it go a couple different ways.

Like you could build a concept off of a bomber alchemist and create a Sapper, sort of an explosives or demolitions expert with an emphasis on nonstandard martial abilities. BFC, AoE and weird utiltarian deeds and abilities.

But I could also see building the character to riff of mutagen and the gunslinger's raw martial power. Create some sort of mutagenic commando with a warpriest-esque emphasis on self buffing and personal enhancement.


Actually, your mention of a mutagen makes me wonder after a hybrid of any class that has both the Bloodline aspect and the Alchemists' mutagen. A class that taps into their existing recessed traits for a short time, shifting to a nature that belonged to one of their forebearers. However, working that out it sounds like something that would be better factored in as an Alchemist's archetype rather than a separate hybrid class. Still... neat idea.


Llyr the Scoundrel wrote:
Of course, in answering your question I was wondering about the particular mechanics of what you were meaning by "binding", and it suggested a potential archetype off of this hypothetical hybrid.

I don't think a binder really matches the flavour of a lovecraftian guy. When I say binder I mean the type of mage like King Solomon and demon-summoners fiction and abilities like the Planar Binding, where you make a space and use it to conjure and trap outsiders and get them to do your biding. In the morning while the wizard is spending an hour to prepare his spells, a binder is probably calling outsiders and sealing them into implements. Theoretically, such a character could also work as a lovecraftian guy by using lovecraftian outsiders like Qlippoth and Sahkil.

Quote:
One that uses a binding that de-buffs the target, not unlike some of the Witch's hex. I hadn't originally thought of a hex in that fashion, and I rather like it.

I'm not really sure how that fits with binding. Closest I can think of that makes sense with that would be shoving fiends into your enemies to screw with their bodies? Which doesn't really sound witch-hex style to me. I can see them having some debuffing power, but it probably wouldn't work with hex-like mechanics.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
But when a potential hybrid class can be easily covered through archetypes, then it's not really worth requesting, in the same vein that it's not worth making a FAQ when your GM can just houserule it for you.

An awful lot of the archetypes being offered up as solutions, like the Sacred Fist, are just hot garbage. Is like sitting down and ordering steak, and then you serve up a plate of steaming poo.

"But I ordered steak!"
"Part of this was steak once!"
"This is clearly full of corn!"
"YOU WILL ACCEPT THAT THIS CORNPILE IS DELICIOUS STEAK!"

Perspicacious Wanderer wrote:
Something fun could be a Barbarian/Psychic or Medium where the rage is actually possession by another being or a darker alter ego with a completely different personality. Give it 4th level psychic casting and access to its own brand of rage powers.

The medium version of bloodrager could be pretty neat. A Possessed, in place of raging a demon or spirit possesses its body and do wacky harmful things. Maybe to switch things up more it can be a super switch-hitter, in that when not possessed raging it is a half-caster with 3/4 bab, or even a full caster, and when it is possessed it becomes a full bab lots of extra temp HP barbarian thing with no casting but rage abilities like shooting people's heads off with arrows, running up walls, teleporting, or poltergeisting random big objects as weapons. Maybe Head Spinning and Pea Soup Vomit for good measure.


For the alchemist druid, dont start from base alchemist, start from an alchemist modified by the bramble brewer archetype. Its already got a plant growth nature based vibe, plus all the key alchemist abilities.


I've always wanted to see an Arcane Ranger that kept alot of the nature/ ranger-y stuff.
Like it would be the perfect character to base out of Nex, scouring the wilds for arcane relics.

Familiar instead of Companion, but spell list will mostly be utility more than offensive spells. (unlike Magus)
(but could keep some good stuff for dealing with stuff like swarms for example)
Maybe a flexible buff system that can help either magic or melee combat, not only in direct ways (+att/dmg),
over all it may be weaker than ideal favored enemy Ranger but with more "Batman" tricks and options via magic.
Arcanist style casting might be good fit, along with special magical abilities to augment spells.
Probably would make sense to include the Rogue "magic trapfinding" ability at least as option. Gun Archetype option required.

Really it could be done as Archetype IMHO, except that it would NEED custom spell list which is space killer.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think something that is part Mutagen and part Wild Shape would work for the Alchemist/Druid. Maybe something more akin to what the Hunter gets with Animal Focus where you're not actually becoming something other than yourself, just becoming in tune with your primal nature/some animals.

Maybe rather than becoming the animal, they get the extra stats as a morale bonus? Then enemies they attack need to make a will save as to whether they believe the transformation to determine whether they actually get extra fatal damage or see through the "13th warrior" type deception.

In that way it would make sense that it could be applied to other party members and/or still be used with other class features.


I want some sort of SWAT specialist a la Solid Snake, that would be represented by a Slayer/Brawler hybrid.

As of now I *can* build it but I have to multiclass (mainly, by dipping Brawler in a Slayer build, or by choosing VMC Rogue on a Brawler).
Snakebite Striker makes some amount of sense but it replaces Martial Flexibility and thus is not a brawler anymore in my eyes.

Silver Crusade

Milo v3 wrote:
Llyr the Scoundrel wrote:
I'd also like something of a hybrid of the Occultist and the Summoner. Consider it in the vein of a Lovecraftian ideal; an individual who's power resides in these little baubles and items, even as he can call these nasty beasties from other planes to fight his physical confrontations for him. There's a case to be made either for an eidolon, or for the summon monster ability inherent to the Summoner. It makes for an individual who may seem fairly harmless one moment, and the next they're grasping at a glowing amulet while two or three beings from another plane spring up to block your path towards them.
In my mind, occultists/summoner would be based around binding outsiders to his will considering occultist has magic circle powers.

This almost sounds more like it should be an occultist archetype focused on summoning than a hybrid class. I'm thinking they'd have to take conjuration and a new "summoning" implement as their two implements at level 1, and lose some of their later implements. The summoning implement would only give the Summon Monster chain of spells, along with some focus powers that allow for their more long term binding stuff. This may or may not include an eidolon or other long term "pet" - this would require some thought about balance to decide how to handle it.


Blind Monkey wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
But when a potential hybrid class can be easily covered through archetypes, then it's not really worth requesting, in the same vein that it's not worth making a FAQ when your GM can just houserule it for you.

An awful lot of the archetypes being offered up as solutions, like the Sacred Fist, are just hot garbage. Is like sitting down and ordering steak, and then you serve up a plate of steaming poo.

"But I ordered steak!"
"Part of this was steak once!"
"This is clearly full of corn!"
"YOU WILL ACCEPT THAT THIS CORNPILE IS DELICIOUS STEAK!"

That's quite an insult to Paizo you just made there, considering they're the ones who have written and endorsed the "plate of steaming poo" that you labeled the Sacred Fist.

Of course, while I don't disagree mechanically, the fact of the matter is that Paizo felt that the archetype (which was released in the same book that Hybrid classes debuted) was an appropriate Cleric/Monk hybrid substitution, since there was no Cleric/Monk hybrid class released in the first place.

Needless to say, your beef should be with Paizo (and their design of certain archetypes), and not with me stating the facts as they are apparent.


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Fromper wrote:
This almost sounds more like it should be an occultist archetype focused on summoning than a hybrid class. I'm thinking they'd have to take conjuration and a new "summoning" implement as their two implements at level 1, and lose some of their later implements. The summoning implement would only give the Summon Monster chain of spells, along with some focus powers that allow for their more long term binding stuff. This may or may not include an eidolon or other long term "pet" - this would require some thought about balance to decide how to handle it.

You guys are thinking for too small. I mean, there is a lot more you can do with the concept of an occultist who binds outsiders to his will than just "I am a conjuration focused occultist". What you describe doesn't really sound like a guy who binds outsiders, just sounds like a summoner-lite. Instead of having implements separated by school, this guy's implement categories should be either planes or subtypes. One of the benefits of just having focus invested into the categories can be things like adding additional monsters of that type to your summon monster list. The class should be able to seal demons into people, put elementals into weapons, call in proteans to fight for you, should get bonuses to researching truenames and occult rituals with the calling subschool. But it should also have some abjuration powers, probably class features rather than since otherwise you're not going to survive as a binder for long if your spending all your time possessed or eaten by your own demons.

Admittedly, conjuration occultist does need to be fixed because it is badly written, but I'd rather all occultists get Summon Monster to their list than make things like class features which add spells they should already have.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

That's quite an insult to Paizo you just made there, considering they're the ones who have written and endorsed the "plate of steaming poo" that you labeled the Sacred Fist.

Of course, while I don't disagree mechanically, the fact of the matter is that Paizo felt that the archetype (which was released in the same book that Hybrid classes debuted) was an appropriate Cleric/Monk hybrid substitution, since there was no Cleric/Monk hybrid class released in the first place.

Please, let us not herpderp around pretending that every attempt is a homerun and that Paizo needs cheerleaders for their strikeouts. And if you agree that mechanically it does not work, why are you lecturing people to stop wishing there was something that did work?

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Needless to say, your beef should be with Paizo (and their design of certain archetypes), and not with me stating the facts as they are apparent.

Telling people to stop posting about wanting proper hybrid classes because there are unplayable archetypes around is not stating any facts, it is something else entirely.


Fighter monk that ditches armor training armor proficiency, unarmed stike some bonus feats and every weapon training beyond weapon training 1 for monk abilities, specialization in the monk weapon group, monk ac and speed bonuses


Blind Monkey wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

That's quite an insult to Paizo you just made there, considering they're the ones who have written and endorsed the "plate of steaming poo" that you labeled the Sacred Fist.

Of course, while I don't disagree mechanically, the fact of the matter is that Paizo felt that the archetype (which was released in the same book that Hybrid classes debuted) was an appropriate Cleric/Monk hybrid substitution, since there was no Cleric/Monk hybrid class released in the first place.

Please, let us not herpderp around pretending that every attempt is a homerun and that Paizo needs cheerleaders for their strikeouts. And if you agree that mechanically it does not work, why are you lecturing people to stop wishing there was something that did work?

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Needless to say, your beef should be with Paizo (and their design of certain archetypes), and not with me stating the facts as they are apparent.
Telling people to stop posting about wanting proper hybrid classes because there are unplayable archetypes around is not stating any facts, it is something else entirely.

The fact you think I'm a cheerleader for Paizo is cute. I don't need to cheerlead for them, especially when I've cited time and again several of their key blunders, and you have hundreds of other posters who would cheerlead in my place. But look at what I'm talking to.

Just because you and I don't like or value the Sacred Fist archetype doesn't mean that it's a bad archetype. All I've stated is that, objectively speaking, the archetype is spec'd to Paizo's liking, so they, as designers, don't feel that a Cleric/Monk hybrid is necessary. That's it.

Telling people that their desire most likely won't get fulfilled (for the reason I've stated above) isn't the same as telling them not to post. At best, you can argue that it's on the same level of "rudeness", which is debatable. At worst, you're creating a strawman out of what I actually said, in which case that's your problem, not mine.


JosMartigan wrote:
Still need a non 3PP option for a PF Hexblade (Fighter/Witch maybe)

The Magus has the archtype "Hexcrafter" located in In Ultimate Magic, which is a Magus that gets access to witches Hexes. This is literally their attempt to make a Pathfinder Hexblade.


Edward the Necromancer wrote:
JosMartigan wrote:
Still need a non 3PP option for a PF Hexblade (Fighter/Witch maybe)
The Magus has the archtype "Hexcrafter" located in In Ultimate Magic, which is a Magus that gets access to witches Hexes. This is literally their attempt to make a Pathfinder Hexblade.

Its actually one of the best archetypes too. Isn't it the standard choice for the rime spell frostbite magi?


Milo v3 wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:
3/4 BAB, 6/9 casting, "positive" hexes in place of mercies, Int to saves and smite?
Heh, I imagined a Paladin/Witch as the Hero class, a martial who has a patron who has granted them at-will supernatural powers (not hexes but still at-will powers) and a familiar sidekick.

Chosen One Paladin might be what you want.

Goth Guru wrote:
Inlaa wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:

An alchemist/druid could also feel like a witchdoctor or something, using amulets and elixirs and maybe even voodoo dolls or something.

I can see them also gaining a mutagenic wildshape ability, but then it might need to be a 1/2 BAB class if it is still a 9 level caster.

I could see a witch doctor being an archetype for it, but I feel like the base version of the class would be a straightforward extract-based nature caster with 9 spell levels and the ability to do cool things with potions like the alchemist does. They'd probably get some alchemist discoveries and some divine/nature themed discoveries as well.

Also, I imagine a witch doctor archetype would apply the mutagenic wildshape to their animal companion instead of themselves. Can you imagine this guy channeling the power of nature into their animal companion and turning it into a hulking monstrosity of war? (Alternatively, maybe they have a Familiar with the mauler archetype that also gets affected by that mutagenic wildshape stuff and has more HP than normal familiars.)

I'm thinking the herbalist. Making tea like infusions, poultices, and all-natural mutagens. I generally create overlap and throw out whatever does not belong. Animal companions and bombs would be let go. Full beast shape would be a discovery. Even if you allow them to make a lotion of reincarnate, that might be the only 6th level infusion they get to choose from. Note that the mixing time might be earlier, and the can apply it as a move action.

Combining Paizo's Beastmorph Alchemist with Paizo Fans United's Herbalist Alchemist would get you wnat you want if it were legal (even if you use 3rd party stuff, they both replace Persistent Mutagen, so you would need to make a new archetype that combines them and replaces something else to make it legal).


UnArcaneElection wrote:


Chosen One Paladin might be what you want.

Mechanically that's it's just Paladin but with a familiar, which is only a very small portion of what I was imagining. Also, CHosen One Paladin is ridiculously tiny when it comes to what character concepts you can do with it compared to a true hybrid of paladin/witch which hopefully wouldn't be limited to generic LG.


^I got you -- if you are thinking of a full hybrid that actually does some Witchy stuff, then yes, something new is needed (and VMC Paladin isn't very good and is even less good on a 1/2 BAB character like a Witch, and VMC Witch is just BAD no matter what your BAB is).


UnArcaneElection wrote:

^I got you -- if you are thinking of a full hybrid that actually does some Witchy stuff, then yes, something new is needed.

Isn't everyone talking about full hybrids? That's the point of this thread isn't it :P


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Blind Monkey wrote:
An awful lot of the archetypes being offered up as solutions, like the Sacred Fist, are just hot garbage.

You completely ignore one point, though: Just because an idea can not be fulfilled with existing archetypes, doesn't mean it couldn't be fulfilled with a not-yet-existing archetype! Most suggestions in this thread could easily be done with a new archetype.

Take this example:

Ryan Freire wrote:
Ranger/gunslinger. Loses hunters bond and spells for dex to damage and a selection of deeds.

That is literally how you design an archetype.

Why would Fighter/Summoner that's basically a fighter with evolutions need to be a hybrid class and not work as a fighter archetype? Why does "martial that instead of flying into fits of superhuman rage, enters a kind of zen trance" need a monk/barbarian hybrid class when it's basically a monk that replaces Ki and Ki Powers with pseudo-rage and correlative powers? Why can't "Bardic Performance + 6-level casting from the cleric spell list." not be a Warpriest archetype (or even a bard archetype)?

­
Basically, everyone proposing a hybrid class should ask himself this:
1) Can my idea be done with an archetype for an existing class? If you only want one or two class features from class A, there's little reason not to add them to an existing class B via archetype. Or the other way around, if you want most of class A, there's little reason not to just make an archetype for it.
2) Can I envision archetypes for my hybrid class? A real class can be build in many different ways, both from a mechanic and a flavor point of view. Generally, archetypes are specializations - if your class can't be further specialized, i.e. if every character you'd build with your hybrid class would be roughly the same, than it doesn't work as a stand alone class.


Not strictly a hybrid of two things, but I feel like we could use a full BAB 4/9 INT based caster. All the other 4-level casters are Wis (ranger) or Cha (paladin, bloodrager, medium).

Maybe something like Psychic/Fighter with more of the latter than the former (equal parts being a magus archetype, probably)?


There's a really crappy fighter archetype in the arcane anthology that gives the fighter a spellbook and int based spellcasting (off the bloodrager's list using the ranger's spells per day).


Perspicacious Wanderer wrote:
Something fun could be a Barbarian/Psychic or Medium where the rage is actually possession by another being or a darker alter ego with a completely different personality. Give it 4th level psychic casting and access to its own brand of rage powers.

Id Rager fits but it gets Spirit abilities instead of psychic rage powers. You just have to be careful picking a Spirit. Due to the wording, some of the abilities don't work w/o a slam attack.

It's definitely better than the steaming pile of crap they pulled w/ the Exciter Spiritualist. I can't say enough bad things about that archetype.


swoosh wrote:
There's a really crappy fighter archetype in the arcane anthology that gives the fighter a spellbook and int based spellcasting (off the bloodrager's list using the ranger's spells per day).

Is it wrong that I think that since this fills a clearly defined mechanical symmetry hole, and could be fleshed out to be unique fluff-wise (The gifted tactician whose preternatural awareness allows them feats that beggar belief that's adept at supernatural reconnaissance, for example) that it probably should not be a "crappy archetype" and actually is worthy of being a full class?

If nothing else, there aren't enough partially-INT based classes that want to mix it up in melee (the occultist being the only one I can think of now) and there could stand to be another one.

If anything, the bloodrager's list is not really a good one for "people who aren't bloodragers" honestly.

Silver Crusade

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
If nothing else, there aren't enough partially-INT based classes that want to mix it up in melee (the occultist being the only one I can think of now) and there could stand to be another one.

The alchemist and magus classes would like a word with you.


Fromper wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
If nothing else, there aren't enough partially-INT based classes that want to mix it up in melee (the occultist being the only one I can think of now) and there could stand to be another one.
The alchemist and magus classes would like a word with you.

Investigator too, but I think there's a fantasy niche that isn't scratched by any of those classes.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Fromper wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
If nothing else, there aren't enough partially-INT based classes that want to mix it up in melee (the occultist being the only one I can think of now) and there could stand to be another one.
The alchemist and magus classes would like a word with you.
Investigator too, but I think there's a fantasy niche that isn't scratched by any of those classes.

Honestly, aside from the monks and wisdom it's hard to find any class in the game that gets good use of the mental stats without using them to cast spells.


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Derklord wrote:

That is literally how you design an archetype.

Why would Fighter/Summoner that's basically a fighter with evolutions need to be a hybrid class and not work as a fighter archetype?

Because evolutions are broken and sort of all over the place when it comes to balanced. Being a hybrid class means you can give the class full attention to balance when it comes to what abilities you give it, without having to worry about taking up too much space.


Milo v3 wrote:
Derklord wrote:

That is literally how you design an archetype.

Why would Fighter/Summoner that's basically a fighter with evolutions need to be a hybrid class and not work as a fighter archetype?
Because evolutions are broken and sort of all over the place when it comes to balanced. Being a hybrid class means you can give the class full attention to balance when it comes to what abilities you give it, without having to worry about taking up too much space.

Moreover you're going to end up linking it to unchained summoner (has normal summoner gotten any love from any book whose production cycle began after unchained was released?) so its probably going to have to pick a subtype.

Silver Crusade

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Chengar Qordath wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Fromper wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
If nothing else, there aren't enough partially-INT based classes that want to mix it up in melee (the occultist being the only one I can think of now) and there could stand to be another one.
The alchemist and magus classes would like a word with you.
Investigator too, but I think there's a fantasy niche that isn't scratched by any of those classes.
Honestly, aside from the monks and wisdom it's hard to find any class in the game that gets good use of the mental stats without using them to cast spells.

Are you forgetting about gunslinger grit, ninja ki, swashbuckler panache, or even the occasional cavalier ability that's charisma based?


I wonder if it's a conscious design decision that abilities of that nature runs of Wis or Cha. Outside the siege gunner gunslinger and some indirect benefits like lore warden I can't think of any martial that gains anything from intelligence.


Squiggit wrote:
I wonder if it's a conscious design decision that abilities of that nature runs of Wis or Cha. Outside the siege gunner gunslinger and some indirect benefits like lore warden I can't think of any martial that gains anything from intelligence.

Inspired Blade Swashbuckler, Student of War PRC, some feats that let you add INT to damage (elf-specific one and Kirin Strike)... There's not much.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

An Int-based bard/ranger/rogue that can use Knowledge checks to find magical or sacred materials or items that can be used for condition removal, and then help you on the quest to retrieve them. For example, if you get cursed, this guy knows about a sacred valley nearby where a magical flower grows that can remove your curse.


Fromper wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Fromper wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
If nothing else, there aren't enough partially-INT based classes that want to mix it up in melee (the occultist being the only one I can think of now) and there could stand to be another one.
The alchemist and magus classes would like a word with you.
Investigator too, but I think there's a fantasy niche that isn't scratched by any of those classes.
Honestly, aside from the monks and wisdom it's hard to find any class in the game that gets good use of the mental stats without using them to cast spells.

Are you forgetting about gunslinger grit, ninja ki, swashbuckler panache, or even the occasional cavalier ability that's charisma based?

I'd say ninja ki, grit, panache, and the cavalier abilities are a good start, but pretty underwhelming compared to what a monk gets out of wisdom.

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