Well, 3 Levels of Horizon Walker for Dimension door for mobility.
Levels in vigilante to screw with scrying.
Allies to make you magic items and spells stored in spell-store weapons and armor or/and scrolls.The thing with Wizards is that i think the entire class is b!*&@+!@, especially in these kind of "whiteroom" threads where the answer is "My wizard have X against Y" ad infinitum. "My wizard have clones and extra souls, and a dimension, and dungeons, and dragons!" Or better yet spend the entire wealth to pay a Cleric to make his god make the wizard go "poof".
If anything it have to be that the Wizard is generally cautious, but he dont know about the rogue, or that someone is after him, or anything about the "coup" at all despite it being obvious that a lv20 wizard have their enemies.
*sigh* Where is even a lvl 20 wizard going to have the cash to have all of this b%%@!%%*?
In actual play the wizard doesn't need to have the perfect spell ready. He can just have a spell that is good enough.
Due to how this is being setup with player vs player I think it is safe to assume that the wizard player knows he will have company. If that were not the case it would be safe to assume he had safewards to let him know of intruders. If not, then he deserves to die with 100d6 of sneak attack damage.
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Disarm is needed to take a staff, not Steal - Steal covers unwielded items. And yes, it's a form of attack which breaks stealth, and if the wizard takes a free action to put both hands on the staff it's a wielded weapon. A Staff of the Magi is an artifact in PF though so he won't have one. A Luck Blade would be a better bet, the lack of proficiency won't matter given he won't be hitting you with it.
True seeing doesn't 'spot creatures who are simply hiding' in PF, and it says 'sees invisible creatures or objects normally' which doesn't sound like it calls out that they're invisible exactly, it just negates invis.
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Sleep with his daughter and make her kill him in surprise. You are a rogue, not Conan the barbarian...
Disarm is needed to take a staff, not Steal - Steal covers unwielded items. And yes, it's a form of attack which breaks stealth, and if the wizard takes a free action to put both hands on the staff it's a wielded weapon. A Staff of the Magi is an artifact in PF though so he won't have one. A Luck Blade would be a better bet, the lack of proficiency won't matter given he won't be hitting you with it.
True seeing doesn't 'spot creatures who are simply hiding' in PF, and it says 'sees invisible creatures or objects normally' which doesn't sound like it calls out that they're invisible exactly, it just negates invis.
Invis was +40 to stealth when standing still and +20 if you are moving, so true seeing would negate that bonus for sure, but you still have to spot the bugger somewhere.
In actual play the wizard doesn't need to have the perfect spell ready. He can just have a spell that is good enough.Due to how this is being setup with player vs player I think it is safe to assume that the wizard player knows he will have company. If that were not the case it would be safe to assume he had safewards to let him know of intruders. If not, then he deserves to die with 100d6 of sneak attack damage.
I think my major issue with Wizards or "God wizards" is that the avaliability for a "good enough" spell is way too easily obained, and in actual play how many wizards have that long of a preperation unless its at the end of a campagin?
So if both had the same amount of preparation you still have the point where the rogue need to win initative and have his weapon halfway up the arse of the wizard.
In actual play the wizard doesn't need to have the perfect spell ready. He can just have a spell that is good enough.
Due to how this is being setup with player vs player I think it is safe to assume that the wizard player knows he will have company. If that were not the case it would be safe to assume he had safewards to let him know of intruders. If not, then he deserves to die with 100d6 of sneak attack damage.
Plus with the feat magical epiphany, they can fill an empty slot 1/day as a standard action. Schrodinger's wizard is an actually viable way to play.
Levels in vigilante to screw with scrying.
Allies to make you magic items and spells stored in spell-store weapons and armor or/and scrolls.
Actually, Ultimate Intrigue's antiscying goodies are fair game for Unchained Rogue already.
I'm a bit timid spliting levels. The more instant kill sneak attack abilities you have the better. I could swear there is like a Ninja or Rogue way to assassinate both can get and the normal capstone for Rogue.
True seeing doesn't 'spot creatures who are simply hiding' in PF, and it says 'sees invisible creatures or objects normally' which doesn't sound like it calls out that they're invisible exactly, it just negates invis.
That does negate the concealment granted by invisiblity. So, in general I would suggest not joining that arms race. Unless you have a way of winning like a level 20 Ninja. Ninja might be more reliable for mage slaying.
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Have you considered simply destroying the tower while the wizard sleeps, crushing him in the rubble? I'm not being sarcastic, this is a serious suggestion. Your DM's hubris is similar to that of wizards. Defy his assumptions about how you would approach it by attacking from an unexpected angle. I mean, the goal is to beat him right? You're a rogue, embrace the idea and just don't fight fair! Just win!
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Have you considered simply destroying the tower while the wizard sleeps, crushing him in the rubble? I'm not being sarcastic, this is a serious suggestion. Your DM's hubris is similar to that of wizards. Defy his assumptions about how you would approach it by attacking from an unexpected angle. I mean, the goal is to beat him right? You're a rogue, embrace the idea and just don't fight fair! Just win!
This does sound like how Gary Gygax's group way back when would have approached the problem.
Disarm is needed to take a staff, not Steal - Steal covers unwielded items. And yes, it's a form of attack which breaks stealth, and if the wizard takes a free action to put both hands on the staff it's a wielded weapon. A Staff of the Magi is an artifact in PF though so he won't have one. A Luck Blade would be a better bet, the lack of proficiency won't matter given he won't be hitting you with it.
True seeing doesn't 'spot creatures who are simply hiding' in PF, and it says 'sees invisible creatures or objects normally' which doesn't sound like it calls out that they're invisible exactly, it just negates invis.
Invis was +40 to stealth when standing still and +20 if you are moving, so true seeing would negate that bonus for sure, but you still have to spot the bugger somewhere.
In actual play the wizard doesn't need to have the perfect spell ready. He can just have a spell that is good enough.Due to how this is being setup with player vs player I think it is safe to assume that the wizard player knows he will have company. If that were not the case it would be safe to assume he had safewards to let him know of intruders. If not, then he deserves to die with 100d6 of sneak attack damage.
I think my major issue with Wizards or "God wizards" is that the avaliability for a "good enough" spell is way too easily obained, and in actual play how many wizards have that long of a preperation unless its at the end of a campagin?
So if both had the same amount of preparation you still have the point where the rogue need to win initative and have his weapon halfway up the arse of the wizard.
I am saying that most people's every day spell list is good enough. There is no special prep time needed for that.
I was not even talking about them being able to prepare for certain encounters, which would make things a lot easier.Then there are abilities which let you prepare a spell in one minute vs 15 minutes. A large amount of prep time might not needed depending on the build. However assuming the player is good at choosing spells I don't think it will matter if he can prepare the spells in 1 minute or 15 minutes or just leave no slots opens, and run with the everyday list.
Plus with the feat magical epiphany, they can fill an empty slot 1/day as a standard action. Schrodinger's wizard is an actually viable way to play.In actual play the wizard doesn't need to have the perfect spell ready. He can just have a spell that is good enough.
Due to how this is being setup with player vs player I think it is safe to assume that the wizard player knows he will have company. If that were not the case it would be safe to assume he had safewards to let him know of intruders. If not, then he deserves to die with 100d6 of sneak attack damage.
I didn't know about that, and if has a bonded item he can basically do the equivalent one more time.
Have you considered simply destroying the tower while the wizard sleeps, crushing him in the rubble? I'm not being sarcastic, this is a serious suggestion. Your DM's hubris is similar to that of wizards. Defy his assumptions about how you would approach it by attacking from an unexpected angle. I mean, the goal is to beat him right? You're a rogue, embrace the idea and just don't fight fair! Just win!
This seems like the best idea so far.
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Have you considered simply destroying the tower while the wizard sleeps, crushing him in the rubble? I'm not being sarcastic, this is a serious suggestion. Your DM's hubris is similar to that of wizards. Defy his assumptions about how you would approach it by attacking from an unexpected angle. I mean, the goal is to beat him right? You're a rogue, embrace the idea and just don't fight fair! Just win!This was what I was trying to say, come at him from an angle he will not see coming.
MDC
Come from a aCUTE angle, and charm him with a female character.
On the night of your honeymoon you stab him in the troat and get his tower for yourself.
Is the wizard aware you are coming? What about his tower?
It would be helpful if you actually answered to tactical tipps.
One thing you have to look out for is the Divination school. It allows the wizard to act in the suprise round and raises Initiative to unstoppable levels.
nasty/broken Things you could have up your sleeves:
-pre nerf Antongonize, he now has to grab his staff and melee you for a round
-Dust of Sneezing and Choking, disables him for 5d4 rounds no save no immunities
-Scroll of Antimagic field, cannot cast spells, his saves sink really low
Destroying the twoer seems like a great plan, but how do you do this using Pathfinder rules not just GM fiat?
Arrange a diversionary threat to trick the Wizard into preparing the wrong spells.
Destroying the twoer seems like a great plan, but how do you do this using Pathfinder rules not just GM fiat?
There are a variety of spells that could perform that function in a variety of ways. Bob Bob Bob already mentioned Polymorph Any Object, for instance (though in a different context). Regardless, yes, it probably will require knowledge of some ancillary rules that rarely see use otherwise...
Yeah... I'm not really concrete advice guy, more good suggestion guy...
Destroying the twoer seems like a great plan, but how do you do this using Pathfinder rules not just GM fiat?There are a variety of spells that could perform that function in a variety of ways. Bob Bob Bob already mentioned Polymorph Any Object, for instance (though in a different context). Regardless, yes, it probably will require knowledge of some ancillary rules that rarely see use otherwise...
Yeah... I'm not really concrete advice guy, more good suggestion guy...
Scroll of earthquake?
Scroll of earthquake?
That could work!
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Use the Phantom Thief archetype. Trying to get a sneak attack off at 20th level is a lost cause. Even if you could somehow get into range the wizard is bound to have enough protections that your sneak is either negated or useless. Instead we want access to vigilante social talents to max out our non-descript-ness.
Invest in all anti-scrying anti-detection and non-magical disguise abilities, then purchase the speediest transportation mechanic that isn't magical. Take the Rumormonger advanced talent and start spreading the following rumor as your travel the world: "Wizard X is planning to destroy the entire material plane in 1 year". Due to Rumormonger's wording, your rumor is "practically accepted as fact" everywhere you go, creating a global uprising against the wizard.
The more the wizard resists the uprising, the more obviously "evil" he seems, increasing the degree of opposition against him. Eventually a party of intrepid adventurers will be drawn to gather power and destroy the evil wizard in his private demiplane or whatever.
Sleep with his daughter and make her kill him in surprise. You are a rogue, not Conan the barbarian...
Build the rogue to get really good at stealth, trap finding, sleight of hand, etc. Then use the rogue to steal a bunch of wealth, magic items, and other high-value things. Then hire a mage-killer wizard to smoke the other guy.
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Use the Phantom Thief archetype. Trying to get a sneak attack off at 20th level is a lost cause. Even if you could somehow get into range the wizard is bound to have enough protections that your sneak is either negated or useless. Instead we want access to vigilante social talents to max out our non-descript-ness.
Invest in all anti-scrying anti-detection and non-magical disguise abilities, then purchase the speediest transportation mechanic that isn't magical. Take the Rumormonger advanced talent and start spreading the following rumor as your travel the world: "Wizard X is planning to destroy the entire material plane in 1 year". Due to Rumormonger's wording, your rumor is "practically accepted as fact" everywhere you go, creating a global uprising against the wizard.
The more the wizard resists the uprising, the more obviously "evil" he seems, increasing the degree of opposition against him. Eventually a party of intrepid adventurers will be drawn to gather power and destroy the evil wizard in his private demiplane or whatever.
This... This idea seems better than mine.
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To kill a wizard with a rogue you really want 2 things.
- Stealth: ensure you have surprise
- The ability to impose conditions / continuous damage.
The first should be a strong point. Baring perfect foreknowledge, which you should be able to avoid. You have the skill points and class features to focus on both stealth and perception. To evade all traps, both physical and magical, and to hit hard on your initial strike.
There are several ways to achieve the second, several of which are class options for the unchained rogue. Force those concentration checks and push the DC numbers as high as possible. The more the mage has to roll, the more likely he becomes a commoner.
Use all those skills your get. Knowledge is your friend and even Mind Blank won't impede the gathering of knowledge through skills. Learn everything you can about your target. Make foreknowledge work in your favor.
At higher levels consider the Nameless One feat.
At higher level consider having Phase Locking on one weapon and Spell Stealing on another.
Silence is your friend. Abuse it.
If a mage cannot see you, they cannot target you with the vast majority of their spells.
What is the tower made out of? If there is wood you could make a huge bonefire then cast shrink item on it. Carry it in side say command word or drop it on ground, all the sudden there is fire everywhere!
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Fine, if you want constructive commentary, we need more info; is this an arena duel or just in a campaign? Is there prep time? Using the UC rules for crafting and WBL? Chained or unchained rogue? All of this still hilariously benefits the wizard if there's any prep time, and if that wizard is a diviner, they're 99% of the time going first, allowing them to set the pace of the encounter. What are the rules of the engagement?
Play an unchained rouge and the skill unlocks will give you a chance. Max out bluff, escape artist, intimidate, perception, sense motive and stealth. Us a rogue talent for cutting edge to get two extra skill unlocks.
For feats you will want Skill Focus Stealth, Skill focus Intimidate, Hellcat Stealth, Enforcer, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting. Use two merciful short swords.
Use every trick in the book to boost your stealth and intimidation. Walk up to the wizard and use Hellcat stealth vanish and then attack him 6 times or more for 12d6 each attack, and each time you hit roll to demoralize him. If you roll more than 20pt more than you need to demoralize him on any roll it is over.
This is not a guaranteed strategy but it is probably your best shot.
Play an unchained rouge and the skill unlocks will give you a chance. Max out bluff, escape artist, intimidate, perception, sense motive and stealth. Us a rogue talent for cutting edge to get two extra skill unlocks.
For feats you will want Skill Focus Stealth, Skill focus Intimidate, Hellcat Stealth, Enforcer, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting. Use two merciful short swords.
Use every trick in the book to boost your stealth and intimidation. Walk up to the wizard and use Hellcat stealth vanish and then attack him 6 times or more for 12d6 each attack, and each time you hit roll to demoralize him. If you roll more than 20pt more than you need to demoralize him on any roll it is over.
This is not a guaranteed strategy but it is probably your best shot.
This isn't a bad idea for killing one of his bodies before he reincarnates, but it's not obvious that Enforcer (which has unique rules for duration on the Intimidate check) works with the Intimidate skill unlocks (which replace the normal Intimidate effects, but not necessarily the Enforcer ones). A lot of the Unchained rules are like that, they work in isolation but not necessarily in combination with other rules.
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Fight fire with fire! Sure he can cast spells too, but now, as a rogue, you can too! http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue -archetypes/eldritch-scoundrel-rogue
6th level casting, that is the sad part. Your wizard might be expecting a normal rogue with a bit of magic, but will be very surprised if the rogue suddenly throws out a silenced still curse spell. Raise some dead, you can do necromancy now, that means bodies you can throw at the tower. Dispel some of his defenses. Especially anything made with permanency, now he has to redo it and that'll cost money. Bleed him dry this way. Use illusions to mess with him.
I think the most constructive suggestion so far is the one with the phantom theif and using the world against the Wizard, though you would most likely only win on a technically rather than a "kill" as the wizard most likely would retreat from the planes he is unwanted.
If he does fight back, well, then you could basically use the confusion and the exhaustion to get what you need. Steal whatever you need, make allies with the enemy of your enemy, denounce the wizard, and when he is preoccupied or burned his spellslots and defenses on the rest of the world, you can make your move.
It's a one-shot, if the local kingdom dies too it's not a problem. And given that this is occurring at all I doubt the wizard has the "Haha, you killed simulacrum #1; numbers 2, 4 and 6 through 8 inbound now!" or astral projection etc. set up. On the other hand, set up as a contest with the GM running one side I doubt that you can finesse the result as above, sadly.
Anyway, on useful stuff. True seeing should be assumed on both characters; truesight goggles are pricy at 184800 gp but you have L20 wealth and they're worth it. Invisibility is still useful vs. mooks but only vs. them.
A lavender and green ellipsoid ioun stone and a wayfinder protects you from one 8th level or lower spell (including any metamagiced to 9th) per round. Get one.
A scarab of protection and an elixir of elemental protection are similarly useful.
Well at this point it have gotten to the point its basically a one-man/woman adventure for a rogue VS a wizard with too much time on his hands.
The advantage of the rogue would be their way of manipulating things to their advantage, but on the other hand.... thats something magic can fix...
So in the end, what is the personality of said Wizard? If its a evil-mcEvil he could just remove your plane and so be it... just what stops him really?
Just what is the arena anyway? Like the beastmass where you get X rounds to buff, and then have a go at it with mutators like suprise rounds and the like?
Unprepared Wizard with normal amount of buffs VS a rogue with anti-magic field and suprise round you can guess the Wizard is most likely dead, but on the other hand... why would he be in that situation to begin with?
So technically the best course of action for a rogue to kill a Wizard is to never be fighting him in the first place and rather setup a way to get him at his weakest which is like 99% RP and not very mechanical.
I would go with using the cleric spell list instead of the wizard one because most people won't foresee that as a possibility. Design an archer rogue with very high use magic device skill. Have multiple scrolls of the following spells: divination, commune and miracle.
Cast divination to determine when the Wizard will next be asleep. When the time comes confirm that the wizard is asleep with a commune spell and use that spell to determine anything else you want to know about the Wizard's defences. Cast miracle asking that when you draw your next arrow that you will appear without error adjacent to the sleeping Wizard (or you and your allies will appear if you think you need any). Cast miracle again to cast anti magic field on yourself. Draw your arrow and coup de grace the Wizard while they are sleeping. With sneak attack the average damage will be so high that the fort save will only suceed on a natural 20. The reason I would use miracle to cast anti magic field instead of simply casting the spell directly from a scroll is that spellbane doesn't work against effects produced by deities and the description of miracle says that you ask for deity to "intercede" so I believe that qualifies.
Not a foolproof plan sure, but what plan is?
Vorpal scimitar surprise attack poison it preferably one that damage con or pit fiend poison if you can get some. + stealth enhancers no way he survives first wave (and depending on init second wave) of attacks. combine with a anti magic field i don't see how he could not die. (i suppose hard part is getting there. )
alternately sneak into his place steal all his books replace with explosive rune books that look the same...wait....
OP implies that the Rogue first needs to get through the entire Wizard's tower and then gets to fight the Wizard. So the arena, as it were, appears to be a tower. One constructed and managed by the Wizard.
Yeah, that just makes things sound worse. If the Rogue is expected to solo a dungeon before finally killing the boss (who has fairly good odds of killing them in a straight up fight anyway), that's just an obscene disadvantage. So... find some way to lure the Wizard out of the tower first?
This is what I was thinking. Why does the thief have to go through all the minions to get to the bad guy, if the question was can a 20th level rogue defeat a 20th level wizard?
All of the battlefield prep by the wizard is a large advantage IMHO.MDC
Which is why i was asking, it just sounds like your general BBEG setup.
And i can project this kind of argument: "But the wizard have used summons and such to lay traps in a tower, and had the time to craft it" etc.If anything the premises are so in favor of the already established wizard that you would require a full party to even get to him, so this whole discussion is rigged from the start.
So against the OPs wishes this sounds to be impossible because the stakes are stacked against the rogue so massively from the start that he is rigged to fail because not only do you have a schrødingers wizard, but he have a schrødingers tower with "anti-you" defenses at every turn.
I think we need to define WHAT and WHERE this Wizard is before we can even think of a proper response honestly.
OP implies that the Rogue first needs to get through the entire Wizard's tower and then gets to fight the Wizard. So the arena, as it were, appears to be a tower. One constructed and managed by the Wizard.
Yeah, that just makes things sound worse. If the Rogue is expected to solo a dungeon before finally killing the boss (who has fairly good odds of killing them in a straight up fight anyway), that's just an obscene disadvantage. So... find some way to lure the Wizard out of the tower first?
This is what I was thinking. Why does the thief have to go through all the minions to get to the bad guy, if the question was can a 20th level rogue defeat a 20th level wizard?
All of the battlefield prep by the wizard is a large advantage IMHO.MDC
I feel like just sneaking through all the monsters and I mean there really isn't a class better at getting past traps. (maybe investigator)
Really since first I've felt like rogues were the anti wizard can't cast a spell as something that already has a dagger through your back.
I would go with using the cleric spell list instead of the wizard one because most people won't foresee that as a possibility. Design an archer rogue with very high use magic device skill. Have multiple scrolls of the following spells: divination, commune and miracle.
Cast divination to determine when the Wizard will next be asleep. When the time comes confirm that the wizard is asleep with a commune spell and use that spell to determine anything else you want to know about the Wizard's defences.
Mindblank.
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Does the wizard know you're coming? If he does you might as well give up and stay home and not die.
If your target is a 20th level wizard you have to assume he has every possible contingency and backup he can manage. You wont have to kill this guy just once to win, you'll need to kill him multiple times.
You have to assume he's on his own permanent demiplane with bound outsiders protecting him, using astral projection to interact with the world with a series of clones hidden in various locations around the world primarily accessibly only through teleportation/plane shifting magic.
Honestly, your first step is figuring out how to get to where the wizard might be. Assuming he has a permanent demiplane he resides on, how do you get there? Well, he probably doesn't have a physical entrance and uses plane shift to get himself in or out. So you need to be able to plane shift to. Stock up on scrolls and max out your UMD. Even then, you have a problem. Take a look at plane shift, it requires a focus (a tuning fork attuned to the wizards demiplane). It's never covered for how you get something like that. All of the major planes can probably be researched and you can probably find information on what tuning fork works for those. But demiplanes...there is infinite potential there. I don't know how you could begin to find the right attunement for the wizards plane.
If you can answer how you get that's step #1.
Also, keep in mind if the wizard gets a turn you've lost. Because the wizard will on his turn cast time stop, gate in or summon something nasty, and then teleport or plane shift away. Then good luck finding him, if he didn't already have mindblank on he will now (and he should really have mindblank on in the first place so that you can't even find him).
Edit: See Bob Bob Bob's post before mine (which is similar) for an even better list of all the sorts of things you need to come up with a plan to deal with.
Basically unless you arbitrarily setup the situation so that the wizard doesn't use all the resources he has at his command to protect himself (in which case this isn't a real fight) you don't really have much of a chance to win.
Also don't forget that the wizard probably has Aroden's Spell Bane with Antimagic and Aroden's Spell Bane.
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Use the Phantom Thief archetype. Trying to get a sneak attack off at 20th level is a lost cause. Even if you could somehow get into range the wizard is bound to have enough protections that your sneak is either negated or useless. Instead we want access to vigilante social talents to max out our non-descript-ness.
Invest in all anti-scrying anti-detection and non-magical disguise abilities, then purchase the speediest transportation mechanic that isn't magical. Take the Rumormonger advanced talent and start spreading the following rumor as your travel the world: "Wizard X is planning to destroy the entire material plane in 1 year". Due to Rumormonger's wording, your rumor is "practically accepted as fact" everywhere you go, creating a global uprising against the wizard.
The more the wizard resists the uprising, the more obviously "evil" he seems, increasing the degree of opposition against him. Eventually a party of intrepid adventurers will be drawn to gather power and destroy the evil wizard in his private demiplane or whatever.
Travel to the Upper Planes and spread the rumor to every good outsider you can, then watch as the Armies of Heaven destroy your foe.