Mage killer rogue

[edduardco]

Snowlilly wrote:

Claxon wrote:

My thought here is Stage 1 (assuming that you've magically gotten past Stage 0 of getting into the wizard's demiplane):

You enter the permanent demiplane of the wizard, finding it is surprisingly a dead-magic demiplane. Inside of the demiplane are 20 horned devils protecting the wizard (from Greater Planar Binding). When you enter the wizard orders all 20 horned devils to attack you and kill you, and the exits via another portal to a non-dead magic demiplane

Given the same infinite resources, the eldritch scoundrel brings 1,000 lantern archons summoned using Planar Binding, blasting the horned devils into ash in a single round.

As long as infinite resources are assumed via Blood Magic, no meaningful conversation can take place.

Except for the fact that eldritch scoundrel is not an available option for the OP

[Claxon]

Snowlilly wrote:

Claxon wrote:

My thought here is Stage 1 (assuming that you've magically gotten past Stage 0 of getting into the wizard's demiplane):

You enter the permanent demiplane of the wizard, finding it is surprisingly a dead-magic demiplane. Inside of the demiplane are 20 horned devils protecting the wizard (from Greater Planar Binding). When you enter the wizard orders all 20 horned devils to attack you and kill you, and the exits via another portal to a non-dead magic demiplane

Given the same infinite resources, the eldritch scoundrel brings 1,000 lantern archons summoned using Planar Binding, blasting the horned devils into ash in a single round.

As long as infinite resources are assumed via Blood Magic, no meaningful conversation can take place.

Mine doesn't require abusing Blood Money. It's perfectly legitimate to chain bind the devils and get them to protect you for no pay. You have to make a charisma check to do so, but it's possible.

However the rogue (who by stipulations cannot be a spell casting rogue) would have to result to magic items which would likely be too expensive.

I agree bloodmoney is off the table or else there is no meaningful discussion.

[Bob Bob Bob]

Snowlilly wrote:

Claxon wrote:

My thought here is Stage 1 (assuming that you've magically gotten past Stage 0 of getting into the wizard's demiplane):

You enter the permanent demiplane of the wizard, finding it is surprisingly a dead-magic demiplane. Inside of the demiplane are 20 horned devils protecting the wizard (from Greater Planar Binding). When you enter the wizard orders all 20 horned devils to attack you and kill you, and the exits via another portal to a non-dead magic demiplane

Given the same infinite resources, the eldritch scoundrel brings 1,000 lantern archons summoned using Planar Binding, blasting the horned devils into ash in a single round.

As long as infinite resources are assumed via Blood Magic, no meaningful conversation can take place.

Actually, no Blood Money was involved to the best of my knowledge. Moment of Prescience (and possibly the Foresight subschool) are all you need to bind some devils for free. And the Rogue has absolutely refused to be a "magic user", so no Eldritch Scoundrel. Unless you meant something else by "Blood Magic".

Also, I don't think this was meant to be taken as a specific plan. I think it was just a general "The Wizard knows you're coming. They convert the entrance of their lair into a dead magic plane filled with monsters". The specific monster is irrelevant, we're already assuming the Wizard has some on staff to guard them and monsters deal much better with anti-magic than NPCs (and therefore PCs).

Horned Devils as a specific example are fairly brutal (and even if you paid them Planar Ally rates, relatively affordable). An Adamantine Golem on a dead magic plane is technically unkillable (Indestructible is Ex, it can only be killed by a magic item or spell). Much cheaper in robo form too. Robo-tarrasque should still have unbeatable regeneration. I guess what I'm saying is, Simulacrum are awesome.

[Claxon]

I guess that's true, make a bunch of simulacrum of the 1 real adamantine golem you crafted and just wait. The simulacrums also have the same regen ability and never die.

[CWheezy]

What a fair and balanced spell that was buffed from 3.5 to pathfinder. Also you don't need to craft an adamintine golem first you can just make simulacrums of them.

[Claxon]

CWheezy wrote:

What a fair and balanced spell that was buffed from 3.5 to pathfinder. Also you don't need to craft an adamintine golem first you can just make simulacrums of them.

True, but I'd probably craft 1 real golem just to keep my company and not have reduced stats.

[Zarius]

So, I'm going to point out one major flaw with the Blood Money spell. If you read it closely, it's meant to be used to replace the normal components in a normal spell... Sure, you can toss it onto a high level spell, but consider the fact that for every 500 GP of the value of the material components, you're going to be taking a point of Str damage... Put your hand up if you've ever seen a wizard with a 21+ str... Because that's what you need to survive some of these components. I mean, I could see (reasonably) having a significantly higher than normal strength score. But if you've got more than about 15-18, you either rolled significantly massive stats, or you built a f%@%ing weird wizard.

If you put your highest die roll into anything but either Int or Cha, depending on whether you're an actual wizard or a sorc, you're likely retarded. Dex, Con, and the OTHER arcane stat are basically the next on the list - AC and initiative, HP, and either actually CONTROLLING the s$$$ you've summoned or some skills. Wis and Str are pretty much the mage dump stats.

Now, you could REASONABLY have +6 stat items in everything (at 18 grand a pop is 96,000 out of his 880,000 so it's a hit, but not a HUGE one... half that, if you've got Craft Wondrous Item), but I greatly doubt that any mage would drop a +5 tome on it... not at 137,500 to buy, or 131,250 to craft... that's half again the cost of all six +6 items, more if you make it. Even if you only considered Int/Cha, Dex, and Con the most important stats... That's still... *counts on his fingers* 560,000 to follow a logical line of progression... On top of 18 grand a pop.

Wish? Not happening. that's still 125,000 for the powdered diamond you'd need, or 51 points of str to survive upping your Str in the first place.

So, taking those factors in, how many mages have the HP to withstand actually using Blood Money for this s@+%?

[Plausible Pseudonym]

You possess something with a huge strength score, let their body take the damage for you. This is the most cited vessel to use.

In your own body you can use polymorph spells to get size bonuses to strength.

[N. Jolly]

Zarius wrote:

So, I'm going to point out one major flaw with the Blood Money spell. If you read it closely, it's meant to be used to replace the normal components in a normal spell... Sure, you can toss it onto a high level spell, but consider the fact that for every 500 GP of the value of the material components, you're going to be taking a point of Str damage... Put your hand up if you've ever seen a wizard with a 21+ str... Because that's what you need to survive some of these components. I mean, I could see (reasonably) having a significantly higher than normal strength score. But if you've got more than about 15-18, you either rolled significantly massive stats, or you built a f#&+ing weird wizard.

If you put your highest die roll into anything but either Int or Cha, depending on whether you're an actual wizard or a sorc, you're likely retarded. Dex, Con, and the OTHER arcane stat are basically the next on the list - AC and initiative, HP, and either actually CONTROLLING the s!#* you've summoned or some skills. Wis and Str are pretty much the mage dump stats.

Now, you could REASONABLY have +6 stat items in everything (at 18 grand a pop is 96,000 out of his 880,000 so it's a hit, but not a HUGE one... half that, if you've got Craft Wondrous Item), but I greatly doubt that any mage would drop a +5 tome on it... not at 137,500 to buy, or 131,250 to craft... that's half again the cost of all six +6 items, more if you make it. Even if you only considered Int/Cha, Dex, and Con the most important stats... That's still... *counts on his fingers* 560,000 to follow a logical line of progression... On top of 18 grand a pop.

Wish? Not happening. that's still 125,000 for the powdered diamond you'd need, or 51 points of str to survive upping your Str in the first place.

So, taking those factors in, how many mages have the HP to withstand actually using Blood Money for this s!$~?

Magic Jar a great white whale, it has 50 strength, use Anthropomorphic Animal on it so it has hands and can cast, throw on a ring of internal fortitude (minor works), and free wishes with your shame whale

A great white whale can be bought for 12,600 gp, so there's not problem getting one, it has a market price. All you need is a place to keep it, make it its own demiplane and fish it out when you need it, and you're good. Not hard to make it so it doesn't need to eat or breathe with magic.

[Quintain]

The way to take out a mage is to choose the battlefield or modify the battlefield to advantage you.

There is a crystalline hazard in the prd that removes memorized spells and does 1d6 points of wisdom damage in a 10' radius if broken. Weaponize those as grenades.

[THUNDER_Jeffro]

This is all really fascinating. Dotting.

[Firewarrior44]

Quintain wrote:

The way to take out a mage is to choose the battlefield or modify the battlefield to advantage you.

There is a crystalline hazard in the prd that removes memorized spells and does 1d6 points of wisdom damage in a 10' radius if broken. Weaponize those as grenades.

Mnemonic Crystal's for those wondering

[Plausible Pseudonym]

2'-4' feet long and "extremely fragile" doesn't sound very useful.

[Claxon]

Zarius wrote:

So, I'm going to point out one major flaw with the Blood Money spell. If you read it closely, it's meant to be used to replace the normal components in a normal spell... Sure, you can toss it onto a high level spell, but consider the fact that for every 500 GP of the value of the material components, you're going to be taking a point of Str damage... Put your hand up if you've ever seen a wizard with a 21+ str... Because that's what you need to survive some of these components. I mean, I could see (reasonably) having a significantly higher than normal strength score. But if you've got more than about 15-18, you either rolled significantly massive stats, or you built a f!!~ing weird wizard.

If you put your highest die roll into anything but either Int or Cha, depending on whether you're an actual wizard or a sorc, you're likely retarded. Dex, Con, and the OTHER arcane stat are basically the next on the list - AC and initiative, HP, and either actually CONTROLLING the s*$* you've summoned or some skills. Wis and Str are pretty much the mage dump stats.

Now, you could REASONABLY have +6 stat items in everything (at 18 grand a pop is 96,000 out of his 880,000 so it's a hit, but not a HUGE one... half that, if you've got Craft Wondrous Item), but I greatly doubt that any mage would drop a +5 tome on it... not at 137,500 to buy, or 131,250 to craft... that's half again the cost of all six +6 items, more if you make it. Even if you only considered Int/Cha, Dex, and Con the most important stats... That's still... *counts on his fingers* 560,000 to follow a logical line of progression... On top of 18 grand a pop.

Wish? Not happening. that's still 125,000 for the powdered diamond you'd need, or 51 points of str to survive upping your Str in the first place.

So, taking those factors in, how many mages have the HP to withstand actually using Blood Money for this s%@*?

Yeah, the problem is you're thinking too literally with a wizard. The wizard doesn't need to use his own body. He transforms into something with a big strength score or just possesses a body with a big strength score.

[Ventnor]

Part of the problem is that the wizard gets to choose the battlefield. So don't let him.

Get all the scrutiny resistance talents + items that you can, and use rumor monger to spread a rumor about where you tend to hang out. Then trap that spot as heavily as you can.

[Xaimum Mafire]

Has anyone considered a Sneaky Dispelling Weapon combined with Shatter Defenses/Greater Feint? Thug Archetype and just beat the buffs off of the wizard?

[Quintain]

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

2'-4' feet long and "extremely fragile" doesn't sound very useful.

Shrink Item, my friend, Shrink item.

[My Self]

Xaimum Mafire wrote:

Has anyone considered a Sneaky Dispelling Weapon combined with Shatter Defenses/Greater Feint? Thug Archetype and just beat the buffs off of the wizard?

Most of us haven't quite gotten to that point. Killing the Wizard while next to the real Wizard is the easy part. Being able to locate and intercept the Wizard without falling afoul of the Wizard's other defenses (magical and otherwise) is the real work.

[Vidmaster7]

My Self wrote:

Xaimum Mafire wrote:

Has anyone considered a Sneaky Dispelling Weapon combined with Shatter Defenses/Greater Feint? Thug Archetype and just beat the buffs off of the wizard?

Most of us haven't quite gotten to that point. Killing the Wizard while next to the real Wizard is the easy part. Being able to locate and intercept the Wizard without falling afoul of the Wizard's other defenses (magical and otherwise) is the real work.

you could probably sneak past most summoned minions and constructs and traps should not be a problem I think only hard part is actually finding the wizard himself you know you could probably make a whole game about this...

[Plausible Pseudonym]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

My Self wrote:

Xaimum Mafire wrote:

Has anyone considered a Sneaky Dispelling Weapon combined with Shatter Defenses/Greater Feint? Thug Archetype and just beat the buffs off of the wizard?

Most of us haven't quite gotten to that point. Killing the Wizard while next to the real Wizard is the easy part. Being able to locate and intercept the Wizard without falling afoul of the Wizard's other defenses (magical and otherwise) is the real work.

you could probably sneak past most summoned minions and constructs and traps should not be a problem I think only hard part is actually finding the wizard himself you know you could probably make a whole game about this...

You can't sneak through a permanent Prismatic Wall on the other side of a Phase Door that is the only entry to a Dimension Locked chamber. Wish or STFO.

[Hiruma Kai]

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

You can't sneak through a permanent Prismatic Wall on the other side of a Phase Door that is the only entry to a Dimension Locked chamber. Wish or STFO.

Level 20 Ninja with Ghost Step begs to differ. Just go under the wall. You've got a 100' range of wall/ceiling/floor to go through as incorporeal, compared to Phase Door's 40' length. Just need a boost to move speed for a round.

Also, does Phase Door work as an entrance into a dimension locked chamber? It is an Ethereal passage, implying it utilizes the Ethereal plane, no?

[Blackwaltzomega]

Some of these thoughts remind me of that "what should a party of high-level martials be able to do to take out a highly-powerful mage BBEG who's using all the exploits" thread, and a thought I had there.

I really feel like after the Arcanist was designed, the door should have been opened for rogues to "hack" magic, particularly magical traps and defenses.

Not a simple matter of "I can disarm this magical trap in a jiff", but more "your tower's defense system is now MY tower's defense system. Prep time your way out of THIS, sonny jim."

[Plausible Pseudonym]

Hiruma Kai wrote:

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

You can't sneak through a permanent Prismatic Wall on the other side of a Phase Door that is the only entry to a Dimension Locked chamber. Wish or STFO.

Level 20 Ninja with Ghost Step begs to differ. Just go under the wall. You've got a 100' range of wall/ceiling/floor to go through as incorporeal, compared to Phase Door's 40' length. Just need a boost to move speed for a round.

Also, does Phase Door work as an entrance into a dimension locked chamber? It is an Ethereal passage, implying it utilizes the Ethereal plane, no?

There's no floor or ceiling to go through if your demiplane is 10' high. And you set up your dimensional lock just short of the wall.

The point of the Phase Door wall isn't that you can't get through it, it's that you can't see or dispel the Prismatic Wall on the other side before you step into it.

Disintegration would be safe if you can cast it enough to get through the wall, then Mage's Disjunction to drop the PW. So you layer it and retreat behind the next wall to plan your ambush or counterattack. Have many, many stone walls with Phase Door blocking your narrow, twisty maze of a demiplane, with just one or two Prismaric Walls. No one has enough Disintegrate slots or scrolls to get all the way through safely. Don't forget false Phase Door options that lead to chambers full of acid or symbol traps. Or a huge amount of water to wash away/drown anyone who Disintigrates their way through.

[Quintain]

Quintain wrote:

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

2'-4' feet long and "extremely fragile" doesn't sound very useful.

Shrink Item, my friend, Shrink item.

Note that for each crystal present a will save must be made each round in order to have the mage keep his spells.

1 save per crystal per round = crying mage after a round or two.

[Snowlilly]

Claxon wrote:

However the rogue (who by stipulations cannot be a spell casting rogue) would have to result to magic items which would likely be too expensive.

Yes, we can always win the argument by telling one side they are not able to use otherwise legal class options while placing no such limitations on the other side.

Once again, it stops being class vs class and becomes GM vs Player.

The player can never win against a GM with infinite resources, doubly so when class options start being banned.

[Claxon]

Snowlilly wrote:

Claxon wrote:

However the rogue (who by stipulations cannot be a spell casting rogue) would have to result to magic items which would likely be too expensive.

Yes, we can always win the argument by telling one side they are not able to use otherwise legal class options while placing no such limitations on the other side.

Once again, it stops being class vs class and becomes GM vs Player.

The player can never win against a GM with infinite resources, doubly so when class options start being banned.

Hey I didn't make the rule, the OP has apparently stated this in the thread that he is either unwilling or unable to be a spell caster.

For what it's worth I think this was always GM vs player, and not about class vs class.

[Bob Bob Bob]

The OP is the one who specified that they don't want to be a spellcaster (scrolls, wands, some SLAs is fine). We're not imposing a restriction, the OP is. If your advice is "The Rogue can't do it without being a spellcaster", say that instead of accusing other people of rigging the contest.

As for the crystals, a 36 Int Diviner Wizard has 69 prepared spells (or less, depending on what's been expended) and at least a 50% chance of making the Will save. You're going to need an obscene amount of crystals to do any real damage to their spellcasting, and even then it's random. Unless you can strip all the Wizard's prepared spells, there's always a chance the spell to supermurder you is still ready to go (and assuming you can survive whatever they've already cast). That's also assuming the Rogue is allowed to somehow gather the crystals (they have no price, which does not mean free, it generally means "unavailable") and they overcome any of the issues with timing of Shrink Object (they need the entire pile of crystals ready to go whenever they decide to fight the Wizard, if it takes them a year do they need to use 73 scrolls?) and issues with gathering them (damaging or breaking them causes Wisdom damage, how you do "harvest" them?).

The Wizard can harvest lava because Create Demiplane (or failing that, Plane Shift) lets them make a volcano (or go to someplace with one). There's also much less to adjudicate. Find lava, cast spell on lava. Simple as that. That being said, I think we've completely gone away from "Polymorphed Lava" since the OP says the whole thing takes place on a demiplane. I don't think you can exist on a demiplane with AMF up, but I might be wrong.

As for sneaking "around" the permanent walls, what if it's not a door, but a portal? A portal to another demiplane, 10^20 miles away somewhere else? And instead of a wall, it's a Prismatic Sphere. Demiplanes do not follow real world logic. You can't "tunnel through the ground/walls" when they don't exist.

[Snowblind]

@Bob Bob Bob: With regards to the crystals, its even worse than that.

Those crystals can be destroyed by brushing them. Even trying to touch them while casting Shrink Object is liable to break them. Carrying them around

Oh, and DC22 is peanuts at level 20. Remember, +HD saves are generally considered mediocre, and since this is level 20 that means that the wizard is going to has saves in the 20s. The rogue will need 20 crystals to drain 1 spell per round. That is 1400 crystals to cripple the wizard. NPC Shrink Object castings alone cost 200,000gp, and that is ignoring all the other issues associated with bringing huge, ultra fragile and probably quite uncommon anti-spellcaster crystals into a settlement and getting massed castings done on them by spellcasters who might be adversely affected.

Contrast this to the wizard, whose concessions might be things like "volcanoes or open areas of lava exist" and "the planes exist". Everything else they need comes from published items, spell writeups and bestiary listings.

[Vidmaster7]

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

My Self wrote:

Xaimum Mafire wrote:

Has anyone considered a Sneaky Dispelling Weapon combined with Shatter Defenses/Greater Feint? Thug Archetype and just beat the buffs off of the wizard?

Most of us haven't quite gotten to that point. Killing the Wizard while next to the real Wizard is the easy part. Being able to locate and intercept the Wizard without falling afoul of the Wizard's other defenses (magical and otherwise) is the real work.

you could probably sneak past most summoned minions and constructs and traps should not be a problem I think only hard part is actually finding the wizard himself you know you could probably make a whole game about this...

You can't sneak through a permanent Prismatic Wall on the other side of a Phase Door that is the only entry to a Dimension Locked chamber. Wish or STFO.

>.> there might have been a dc for that in epic level handbook >.> also not sure what STFO means stay the f out maybe? so probably definetly needs a rod of cancellation or something that can get rid of prismatic wall scroll of disjunction?

[Zarius]

To quote ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money ): "As part of this spell's casting, you must cut one of your hands, releasing a stream of blood [...] Even valuable components worth more than 1 gp can be created, but creating such material components requires an additional cost of 1 point of Strength damage, plus a further point of damage for every full 500 gp of the component's value (so a component worth 500–999 gp costs a total of 2 points, 1,000–1,500 costs 3, etc.). "

There are exceptionally few creatures with a Str of 51+ natively. Dragons are one of the few, and you still cast as a wizard, NOT as a dragon, in any of the spells that could ACTUALLY turn you into a dragon. More importantly, those spells will wear off before you recover back to full health. This isn't temporary ability drain, you can't just chug a resto pot and *poof* it's gone. This is "I JUST BLEED FIFTY POINTS OF STRENGTH OUT OF MY HAND!" blood loss. You heal that naturally.

More over, even if you use Greater Polymorph, you get a SIZE BONUS to Str, not become a 50 str creature. Best case, you COULD use Wish to duplicate upto a 7th level spell from a non-wizard spell list (As long as it's NOT an opposed school of magic) and duplicate Form of the Dragon II, which is only a +6 size bonus to Str. And it will last, at most, 20 minutes (1 minute per level, including Greater Polymorph).

So, you're still not getting over 50 str to mass duplicate the Wish spell. Period. And, while you COULD use that to get your str over 21 with (relative) ease, you aren't holding that long enough to heal back up. Because, again, we aren't talking about ability drain here. We're talking about massive blood loss. Far as I'm aware, there's no spells that directly fix that, short of simply keeping you alive, and being reduced below 0 on str due to massive blood loss is auto death. You literally don't have enough blood in your body to keep you going.

Which means that any loop holes that you use to get around it is... Cheesing it, just as much as if I used a 2,000 GP ring of constant True Strike.

[Zarius]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

My Self wrote:

Xaimum Mafire wrote:

Has anyone considered a Sneaky Dispelling Weapon combined with Shatter Defenses/Greater Feint? Thug Archetype and just beat the buffs off of the wizard?

Most of us haven't quite gotten to that point. Killing the Wizard while next to the real Wizard is the easy part. Being able to locate and intercept the Wizard without falling afoul of the Wizard's other defenses (magical and otherwise) is the real work.

you could probably sneak past most summoned minions and constructs and traps should not be a problem I think only hard part is actually finding the wizard himself you know you could probably make a whole game about this...

You can't sneak through a permanent Prismatic Wall on the other side of a Phase Door that is the only entry to a Dimension Locked chamber. Wish or STFO.

>.> there might have been a dc for that in epic level handbook >.> also not sure what STFO means stay the f out maybe? so probably definetly needs a rod of cancellation or something that can get rid of prismatic wall scroll of disjunction?

Spell bane, set to Prismatic Wall, Wall of Force, Spell Bane, AMF, and one other normally AMF immune stop spell not currently specified, or one other OMFG NO spell, like the one that gives them a +20 to their initiative.

[N. Jolly]

Zarius wrote:

To quote ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money ): "As part of this spell's casting, you must cut one of your hands, releasing a stream of blood [...] Even valuable components worth more than 1 gp can be created, but creating such material components requires an additional cost of 1 point of Strength damage, plus a further point of damage for every full 500 gp of the component's value (so a component worth 500–999 gp costs a total of 2 points, 1,000–1,500 costs 3, etc.). "

There are exceptionally few creatures with a Str of 51+ natively. Dragons are one of the few, and you still cast as a wizard, NOT as a dragon, in any of the spells that could ACTUALLY turn you into a dragon. More importantly, those spells will wear off before you recover back to full health. This isn't temporary ability drain, you can't just chug a resto pot and *poof* it's gone. This is "I JUST BLEED FIFTY POINTS OF STRENGTH OUT OF MY HAND!" blood loss. You heal that naturally.

I'm starting to think you're not using the same rules as the rest of us.

I already showed you can buy a 50 strength animal and the spell needed to allow it to cast. And this is temporary ability damage, you can just use a restoration scroll to fix it, this isn't an issue. Hell, they can even limited wish to cast restoration, using blood money to accomplish that, problem solved with no cost (aside from the ring of internal fortitude).

Quote:

More over, even if you use Greater Polymorph, you get a SIZE BONUS to Str, not become a 50 str creature. Best case, you COULD use Wish to duplicate upto a 7th level spell from a non-wizard spell list (As long as it's NOT an opposed school of magic) and duplicate Form of the Dragon II, which is only a +6 size bonus to Str. And it will last, at most, 20 minutes (1 minute per level, including Greater Polymorph).

Not an issue with the shame whale.

Quote:

So, you're still not getting over 50 str to mass duplicate the Wish spell. Period. And, while you COULD use that to get your str over 21 with (relative) ease, you aren't holding that long enough to heal back up. Because, again, we aren't talking about ability drain here. We're talking about massive blood loss. Far as I'm aware, there's no spells that directly fix that, short of simply keeping you alive, and being reduced below 0 on str due to massive blood loss is auto death. You literally don't have enough blood in your body to keep you going.

...what rule says that? 0 Strength renders you unable to move, not kills you; 0 Constitution kills you. Again, I really think you're using rules that no one else is.

Quote:

Which means that any loop holes that you use to get around it is... Cheesing it, just as much as if I used a 2,000 GP ring of constant True Strike.

A: If you have said ring, so can the wizard...and all of the wizard's guardians, it's 2k, so you'll get dashed before you get close.

B: If we're allowing custom magic items, the wizard has better access to those too.

C: If we're allowing custom anything, the wizard can custom make spells, there's rules for it in Ultimate Magic, so again, advantage wizard.

[Zarius]

N. Jolly wrote:

Zarius wrote:

To quote ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money ): "As part of this spell's casting, you must cut one of your hands, releasing a stream of blood [...] Even valuable components worth more than 1 gp can be created, but creating such material components requires an additional cost of 1 point of Strength damage, plus a further point of damage for every full 500 gp of the component's value (so a component worth 500–999 gp costs a total of 2 points, 1,000–1,500 costs 3, etc.). "

There are exceptionally few creatures with a Str of 51+ natively. Dragons are one of the few, and you still cast as a wizard, NOT as a dragon, in any of the spells that could ACTUALLY turn you into a dragon. More importantly, those spells will wear off before you recover back to full health. This isn't temporary ability drain, you can't just chug a resto pot and *poof* it's gone. This is "I JUST BLEED FIFTY POINTS OF STRENGTH OUT OF MY HAND!" blood loss. You heal that naturally.

I'm starting to think you're not using the same rules as the rest of us.

I already showed you can buy a 50 strength animal and the spell needed to allow it to cast. And this is temporary ability damage, you can just use a restoration scroll to fix it, this isn't an issue. Hell, they can even limited wish to cast restoration, using blood money to accomplish that, problem solved with no cost (aside from the ring of internal fortitude).

Quote:

More over, even if you use Greater Polymorph, you get a SIZE BONUS to Str, not become a 50 str creature. Best case, you COULD use Wish to duplicate upto a 7th level spell from a non-wizard spell list (As long as it's NOT an opposed school of magic) and duplicate Form of the Dragon II, which is only a +6 size bonus to Str. And it will last, at most, 20 minutes (1 minute per level, including Greater Polymorph).

Not an issue with the shame whale.

Quote:

So, you're still not getting over 50 str to mass duplicate the Wish spell. Period. And, while you COULD

...

I might not be using the same rules as you. However, what I'm using is the rules as written, since d20pfsrd uses the paizo rules as written, and just orders them slightly differently. They don't even add FAQ clarification to the written rules, but to an FAQ rule. I'm only applying ANYTHING outside the RAW when the problem is that the RAW doesn't cover it.

You CAN NOT use an outside animal to power Blood Money. And NONE of the trasformative spells set you to the average Str of the creature you shapeshift into. They only set you to the Str of YOU plus a size bonus, IF you've increased size. THAT is written in the description of both ALL of the polymorph subschool spells, AND with in the written description of the Polymorph subschool information. So, no, you have NOT shown me a way for that wizard to power Blood Magic for a Wish.

And you're right. Reducing to a 0 Str has you crippled and unable to move because you can't muster the effort to raise your hand.

What happens when you, at a 26 str, try to use Blood magic to pay off the cost of a Wish and get reduced to -24? Because there AREN'T rules for that. Which means one of two things happen: Either a) you die, because at -24 you're at negative carry weight, and thus don't have the strength to BREATH or b) you get reduced to 0 Str, and fall unconcious, with the wish either failing because you couldn't complete the spell (by pronouncing your wish) or failing because you don't have the material components.

Since *blood magic can't be used to power wish* (edited: had them backwards), the best you're looking at is paying the 25K cost of Wish to duplicate something like Form of the Dragon II, or another spell that gives you the +6 Str bonus, (none of the wizard/sorcerer Polymorph spells do that, only upto a +4, but that might work with good rolls) to power the Blood Magic for a much cheaper component. At that point, why bother?

Contrary to what everyone keeps saying, using Blood Magic to pay for high-cost material components, while POSSIBLE with the RAW, is NOT what the RAW meant it for.

[Abraham spalding]

Guy doesn't realise you aren't using transformation spells, but possession spells...

[Zarius]

Ahh. A possession spell to possess a whale. Whales do not have the capacity for either verbal or somatic components. Both Blood Magic and Wish fail.

[Cwethan]

That's why he uses Anthropomorphic Animal

[Zarius]

You can use that all you want, but we are CLEARLY into the realm of "cheesing it."
Step 1) Summon whale.
Step 2) Cast anthropomorphic animal on said whale, granting it hands.
Step 3) Posses said whale.
Step 4) Cast through said whale to use Blood Magic to power Wish to up your OWN Str, allowing you to use Permanency on a variety of spells.

Problem with this: Cheesing it. You're using the RAW to bypass what the RAW clearly intended. The rule of Str damage was CLEARLY intended to prevent the Unlimited Wish syndrome. If he gets this, then I get the same slew of Cheesing it access that has now gotten.

[CWheezy]

The whale thing is only one way you can. There are actually more ways to get free wishes. Its a fun puzzle imo.

How is it cheese to use blood money as intended? Thats confusing to me. Blood money was intended to replace material components, at 500 go per STR point.even with a 10 STR wizard, thats 4500gp you can duplicate already.

[Cwethan]

I don't think anyone's denying that this is a crazy-ass combination, but it's one of the ways that high level wizards can basically destroy the economy of expensive spell components.

If you're certain that your opponent won't be using tactics like this, then hey, it's your scenario, you're the one with the inside scoop, but that doesn't make people wrong for pointing out what the level 20 wizard could be doing without asking for any house rules, or even any custom magic items or spells.

If they won't be using some form of infinite wish factory, then that's good information for the thread.

[Blackwaltzomega]

The more common-sense approach with Blood Money would simply be "this is a runelord's personal spell and therefore can't be accessed by PCs."

An even BETTER solution would probably have been not to print such an abusable spell in the first place, but this IS pathfinder.

[Snowblind]

Zarius wrote:

You can use that all you want, but we are CLEARLY into the realm of "cheesing it."

Step 1) Summon whale.
Step 2) Cast anthropomorphic animal on said whale, granting it hands.
Step 3) Posses said whale.
Step 4) Cast through said whale to use Blood Magic to power Wish to up your OWN Str, allowing you to use Permanency on a variety of spells.

Problem with this: Cheesing it. You're using the RAW to bypass what the RAW clearly intended. The rule of Str damage was CLEARLY intended to prevent the Unlimited Wish syndrome. If he gets this, then I get the same slew of Cheesing it access that has now gotten.

This is the problem with wizard vs anything else. The wizard list is all sorts of broken, and you are going to nitpick at anything that clears your own personal threshold of broken under the guise of "wasn't intended", despite broken nonsense like chain efreeti binding making it into a Paizo AP as a boss tactic.

Can I make a suggestion? Talk with the wizard player and work out a set of rules to go by. Everything within these rules is fair game. Even if you feel that the wizard is going too far with their (rules legal) excesses, have a run through and see if your rogue can beat them anyway (or just concede that you probably can't win, if you want to make it quicker). Once you have done that, start eliminating cheese options until your rogue actually stands a chance. It will help you gauge what level of broken your rogue can manage. If you can't beat the wizard without banning stuff that most GMs would consider legitimate then that tells you a lot about the relative power of rogues and wizards.

[Bob Bob Bob]

Alright, come on everyone, if the OP says "No Blood Money", then we have to assume no Blood Money (they might want to bring it up with their opponent just to be sure though). We are discussing generalities since neither build is set it stone (or in the case of the Wizard, even known) but this is not a general Rogue v Wizard thing. This is about a very specific Rogue fighting a very specific Wizard under very specific conditions. If the OP says "no <something>", then we have to leave it out.

So no Wish (they said both Miracle and Wish were off the table). They might have meant just the "more powerful" effects, but last I saw it was just "No Wish".

As for the OP, why are you still designing around AMF if the whole thing takes place on a created demiplane? Nothing about Create Demiplane renders it immune to AMF. I can't say for sure what suppressing a demiplane does, but it definitely boots you out.

And I don't think anyone has addressed my tower rooms of doom yet.

Room one is bright light, dead magic, fire-dominant, objective directional gravity (bottom 20 feet is "down", top 20 feet is "up"), self-contained, and contains a maze made up of perfectly smooth walls which is constructed so it tessellates (so that when you leave one "edge" you'll just rejoin the maze on the opposite edge). It's also staffed with imps who exist solely to taunt visitors. The only exit is on the ceiling, concealed. I'm thinking 100' x 100' x 40'.

Room two is darkness, dead magic, water-dominant, walls are "glass", and filled with water and a Simulacrum of Cthulhu. Probably 80' x 80' x 60', Mecha Chtulhu at the center (so it can see and reach everything).

Room three is bright light, dead magic, heavy gravity, walls are a featureless void, and shaped like a joystick. Like 100' x 100' x 10' at the base, then a tower 10' x 10' x 1000' rising from the center. The room is filled with chairs, one of which is an animated object who responds to an entirely made up song and takes whoever is on it to the exit at the top. If you're feeling puckish, maybe a few more enchanted chairs, but these ones stop 500 feet up and buck their rider.

Room four is darkness, timeless magic, and has a Simulacrum of a Hekatonkheires sitting in the middle with every buff spell the Wizard knows slapped on it. Additionally, the entrance is covered by a Wall of Supression and the exit is covered by a Primsatic Wall, Prismatic Sphere, Wall of Lava, and any other wall spell the Wizard feels like throwing on. Probably a few Summon Monster IX sitting around as well, buffed similar to the Hekatonkheires. 80' x 80' x 60' works again.

Room 5 is darkness, dead magic, and with either a Simulacrum or a real Adamantine Golem. With a brain, to max perception. Probably same 80' x 80' x 60'.

The Rogue might manage the first one (they'd have the perception to find the exit, probably, and could come back with a 40 foot ladder). Mecha Cthulhu would wreck them. Even without all the magic and insanity causing stuff, it's stats are obscene. And with ~80 CMD, you're not tumbling past it (what is underwater acrobatics called?). That one's going to go "claw/tentacle->grab->slowly, inevitably die".

[Mark Carlson 255]

Blackwaltzomega wrote:

The more common-sense approach with Blood Money would simply be "this is a runelord's personal spell and therefore can't be accessed by PCs."

An even BETTER solution would probably have been not to print such an abusable spell in the first place, but this IS pathfinder.

I agree the spell can be highly abused and therefor should be closely monitored by the GM.

That being said I also think that authors at times do not thing of all the crazy things that players have time to think of over the years.

A work around I might use is the the spell is based on your natural STR not the STR of any, bonus magic, bonus ite, poly'ed, possessed form you take, and if you take another forum the STR penalty/cost is adjusted (multiplied) accordingly.

Also I might rule as a GM if you use Blood Money as a component and then someone uses "A's Spell Bane" then all spells you have that have used Blood Money have to save or go poof. This might be out side of the rules but to me if you are using a spell to weave into another spell to bypass a component then if you take away that weave then the whole spell weave unwinds.
But since they said Blood $ is out it is not a big deal.

Simulacrum,
Boy it has been a while since looking at that spell. After reading the D20PFRD when did they drop the phrase you cannot create/represent any unique creature but that you can create a base creature with some resemblance of the original?
When using the rules above you could not create Cthulhu at 1/2 level as it is not a create type but a unique creature/entity.
(Or maybe it was a house rule we adopted way back in the 80's to prevent such things from breaking the game.) Info would be most welcome.
Thanks
MDC

[Mark Carlson 255]

The more I think about it it seem to be to be a case of using the word of the law to defeat the letter of the law type situation. ie, the spell says you lose STR so you change shape to a "something" that has a greater STR to bypass the writing of the spell.
If you look at the spell as written you can see it obviously gives a huge advantage to casters who have a high strength as that was its intent but I question if the spells intent was to let someone circumvent the STR penalty by dramatically altering their STR by magic. So I am thinking about house ruling it in some way to prevent such blatant abuses and I think the first one to test out would be have some size mechanic included in the spell's description.
MDC

[My Self]

I'm pretty sure Blood Money was intended for Wizards to only cast within their native, non spell-buffed form. Thus a Wizard could cast about 3000-5000 gp worth of spells at the cost of a fairly high amount of strength damage. Maybe higher, if the Wizard is using permanent STR boosting items such as belts. In this way, it rewards Wizards who put points into STR, which is normally a suboptimal Wizard stat to prioritize.

[Blackwaltzomega]

My Self wrote:

I'm pretty sure Blood Money was intended for Wizards to only cast within their native, non spell-buffed form. Thus a Wizard could cast about 3000-5000 gp worth of spells at the cost of a fairly high amount of strength damage. Maybe higher, if the Wizard is using permanent STR boosting items such as belts. In this way, it rewards Wizards who put points into STR, which is normally a suboptimal Wizard stat to prioritize.

Well, if I recall correctly, the spell was intended to be a personal custom spell designed by one of the Runelords, so its purpose was most likely a way for an AP boss to tweak the rules a little. The only problem is writing it as a spell allows PCs to treat it as something they can learn, too.

And while it might be "intended" for use in one's native form, the fact remains that the ability to replace your strength score with that of a much bigger creature's has been around since Magic Jar.

This is part of the problem with how staggeringly massive the spell list index is; so many ridiculous combinations can arise from it because they print dozens of new spells in every book, often with very little consideration for what those spells might enable in the hands of a wizard who can, with time and a little money, gather every single one of them up.

[CWheezy]

I don't think an ap boss actually uses it. Its still a broken concept. 4500g from strength 10 is still limited wish for free, fabricate, permanency, all sorts of dumb stuff

[Bob Bob Bob]

3.5 Simulacrum required as a material component "some piece of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, or the like)". For some reason this was dropped from Pathfinder. To be fair, even in 3.5 it wasn't much of a restriction (and since it had no value, it was technically in a spell component pouch) but it was a least a thing that existed. Nowadays you just need an ice sculpture and you can create anything, like the Mantis God (CoCT #3).

As for Blood Money, the issue isn't "unexpected" interactions. It can't be, since it was published well after Magic Jar. It's just people not doing their homework. The spell was designed for a caster who never once felt the need to leave their own body, so it never took that into account. And if I remember correctly he was a Wizard, so the spell was always going to be available in his spellbook afterwards. So the players were always going to get it, but the designer never took that into account.

[Claxon]

Blackwaltzomega wrote:

Well, if I recall correctly, the spell was intended to be a personal custom spell designed by one of the Runelords, so its purpose was most likely a way for an AP boss to tweak the rules a little. The only problem is writing it as a spell allows PCs to treat it as something they can learn, too.

So, during the course of the AP you get access to a spell book that has Bloodmoney and a few other normally "restricted" spells like this. You are fairly high level when it occurs, and the spells was originally written by the rune lord. However, it very much comes into player hands during the course of the game (unless my GM did something weird) and well before the end of the campaign too. I had a character who used a wand of it for a few levels.

However, outside of that AP I wouldn't allow Bloodmoney to happen because it is definitely broken.