Mage killer rogue


Advice

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TOZ wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:
I'd argue that its description says nothing like that
It's a G$*$$$N SKULL OF A CREATURE.

Oh come on, adventurers make entire houses out of those.


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Zarius wrote:
is there a limit to how high I can make a magic item that boosts stealth? I know that the cost is Bonus*Bonus*100 gp, but is there a cap, or just what I can afford?

RAW there's not much, though there's generally a prereq of a +X to skill Y item requiring X ranks in skill Y you can ignore that prereq for a +5 to the DC to make the item.


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As to moment of prescience and/or mind blank... Is there any particular reason I have to UMD them? I CAN make, say, a ring with a one use per day of each. (yeah, two rings) or other, similar abilities/items. Hell, TECHNICALLY, I could make a ring of constant True Strike for 2,000 GP, if I really wanted to.


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Well, scrolls are cheaper. As a one shot you don't need one use/day, just one use. Actually you probably want to look up non-reusable items by preference,


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True, but like I said, I'm trying to minimize the involvement of outside help, especially wizards, and I can't make scrolls, wands, staves, potions, etc on my own via the unchained crafting system. If at all possible, I'd like to have my remaining 760,000 GP used to do everything I need to, gear wise. If possible.


Ooh! Unrelated to most of the above: skull-farm!

And now, "how magic makes really weird things available with no death" by TL:

(A single example out of many)

Step on: find a cyclops!
Step two: clone it!
Step three: behead it's fresh clone-corpse! (Fresh from the oven!)
Step four: trip to the ossuary! Yay!
Step five: repeat as necessary.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Zarius wrote:
True, but like I said, I'm trying to minimize the involvement of outside help, especially wizards

So make wizards 'inside' help... Leadership feat, 17th level wizard cohort to counter in kind any and all 'I win because, magic' shenanigans.


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CBDunkerson wrote:
Zarius wrote:
True, but like I said, I'm trying to minimize the involvement of outside help, especially wizards
So make wizards 'inside' help... Leadership feat, 17th level wizard cohort to counter in kind any and all 'I win because, magic' shenanigans.

Leadership feat mutually agreed to be excluded.


Zarius wrote:
As to moment of prescience and/or mind blank... Is there any particular reason I have to UMD them? I CAN make, say, a ring with a one use per day of each. (yeah, two rings) or other, similar abilities/items. Hell, TECHNICALLY, I could make a ring of constant True Strike for 2,000 GP, if I really wanted to.

So this is just blatant cheese. Are you kidding me?

You do not want to go down the custom magic item route. If you do the Wizard does as well, and they play it much, much better. More importantly, the arbiter of what's "legal" is your freaking opponent. Unless you just allow everything with no oversight, at which point you all have infinite wishes from Candle of Invocation and get into a Wish-off. Stick to the scrolls, at least they're not going to be contentious.


So... actually... we also banned Wishes/Miracles on the principal that it's just asking for the universe to ---- in the ---. That and, again, blatant cheese. I KNOW that was cheese. I didn't say I was GOING to do it, I just said I COULD do it. Technically.


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But, yeah, a couple of scrolls won't kill me. That's "throwing money at a problem", not REALLY involving a mage. Not directly.


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Zarius wrote:
But, yeah, a couple of scrolls won't kill me. That's "throwing money at a problem", not REALLY involving a mage. Not directly.

Questions: Does the tower come out of the mage's funds and is blood money available to him?

If the tower is in addition to his character funds you are effectively screwed. If blood money is available to him then he is effectively unlimited in wealth, and again effectively screwed.


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Wealth as per advancement table. As to blood money, it IS a class feature technically. However, that's a blatant cheese and would invalidate the duel. Because I see where you're going with that, you just use blood money in place of all of your majorly expensive material components and *boom* free permanent traps, blah blah blah, full set of defenses at zero cost.

As to the question of the tower, OTHER than blood money, is there a way (that doesn't require RP and a real DM, versus simply a third party arbiter in this instance to act as a rules lawyer) to acquisition a keep for ANY class for free?


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Zarius wrote:

Wealth as per advancement table. As to blood money, it IS a class feature technically. However, that's a blatant cheese and would invalidate the duel. Because I see where you're going with that, you just use blood money in place of all of your majorly expensive material components and *boom* free permanent traps, blah blah blah, full set of defenses at zero cost.

As to the question of the tower, OTHER than blood money, is there a way (that doesn't require RP and a real DM, versus simply a third party arbiter in this instance to act as a rules lawyer) to acquisition a keep for ANY class for free?

Isn't the fact that the wizard has access to blood money RAW and RAI both kind of invalidating of the concepts of the duel? Paizo wrote a spell that allows a wizard with prep time to ignore expensive prereqs (not to mention all the other spells the wizard can use to combine with this for even MORE ways to abuse it), it exist, and it's a part of the class as much as any other spell. If you're going to say they can't use it, you're house ruling here, and that does against the spirit of what you're trying to do here, which is to prove the rogue stands any chance (it doesn't).


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Zarius wrote:

Wealth as per advancement table. As to blood money, it IS a class feature technically. However, that's a blatant cheese and would invalidate the duel. Because I see where you're going with that, you just use blood money in place of all of your majorly expensive material components and *boom* free permanent traps, blah blah blah, full set of defenses at zero cost.

As to the question of the tower, OTHER than blood money, is there a way (that doesn't require RP and a real DM, versus simply a third party arbiter in this instance to act as a rules lawyer) to acquisition a keep for ANY class for free?

Maybe but I don't know for sure I would have to do more research. The fact the tower was mentioned in the first place was odd and why I asked.

Personally if I was to set up the tower you would be looking at a wall of force wrapping a prismatic wall for the outermost walls. Those are expensive but literally stop all effects from you getting in including divinations. The purpose of the wall of force is to prevent random people from walking into the the prismatic wall.


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Zarius , blood money is not allowed Because cheese yes ?

Zarius wrote:

As to blood money, it IS a class feature technically. However, that's a blatant cheese and would invalidate the duel.

but what about Planar binding ?

you know... Wizard can have a lot free traps via Planar binding just look at this guy :

Traper.

Ability:

A crucidaemon can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps. When it uses its greater glyph of warding spell-like ability to create a spell glyph, it may utilize any 6th-level or lower spell from the cleric or the wizard spell list, even though it otherwise can't cast these spells. The Perception and Disable Device DCs for any traps a crucidaemon creates gain a +2 bonus.


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If you're being sarcastic, you need to indicate it in some way. Text doesn't carry tone, and I've seen way too many people insist that <insert super cheap magic item> was totally okay very seriously. And I assume you meant the ring of True Strike was the cheese, but the 1/day Mind Blank is also cheesy as #$%^. Because Mind Blank's duration is 24 hours, 1/day and Continuous are basically identical (but one is much, much cheaper).

Nondetection might be useful but is far more likely to be useless. If it's against summoned/bound minions it's fine, but the DC is 20 (or 19 for the magic item). The Wizard literally cannot fail that check. You probably still need it to prevent the imp swarm with detect magic from seeing you, but with enough eventually they'll roll... oh wait, they only need 13 or 14. Probably only 4 imps before you get noticed.

If the whole thing is the Wizard's demiplane, you're going to need an obscene pure Will save. Otherwise: "As a standard action, you may eject a creature from your demiplane. The creature may resist with a Will saving throw." This isn't mind-affecting, charm, compulsion, a targeted spell, anything special. And you're looking at what, DC 32 easy?

11 RP race can't take See in Darkness (20+ only). Ditto Nimble Attacks. They're Advanced, not Standard.

You cannot declare things which would be bad for you cheese and things which are good for you not cheese. If Blood Money is cheese for being a rare spell from an AP, Cyclops Helm is equally bad for being a rare item from an AP. Plus I'm fairly certain you're dumpster diving a dozen books to find all the stuff you're taking. If you're saying Blood Money is cheese because it allows the Wizard to skip costs and make a bunch of stuff permanent, then that makes no sense. The whole point of Blood Money is to cast expensive spells for free. Almost literally the only thing it does. There's no vague rules or unintentional interactions, it was designed to do exactly that.

Your character is going to need max ranks in Knowledge (the planes) to cover the fact that you're going to need to read up on all the planar traits, otherwise you catch fire/drown/suffocate (fire, water, and earth dominant). Oh, and the plane of just Cloudkill/Acid Fog/Euphoric Cloud/any hostile spell with a duration. And all the various possible gravity. Gravities? I don't think it's meant to have a plural.


I think, Bbb, you've missed the fact that they've agreed to be bound by their own wealth limits by level (invalidating money-making schemes and methods of circumventing those limits) as well as to be bound to "no leadership" and a few other such things - this is not just "good for me not cheese bad for me cheese" as you're making it out to be. Several people have pointed out some tricks earlier on that could have helped him that were deemed cheese.

The OP is trying to be sincere, from what I can tell, and he's trying to have fun with his friend and GM in a gentleman's-agreement-like-limited game. We all know that, if the wizard were unbound, it'd win. Not all wizards or rogues are created equal, so not all 20thblevel wizards would auto-curbstomp 20th level rogues... but I'm not expecting this one to go well. Further, if it does, that's just as much on the "gentleman's agreement"-like situation as it is the other stuff.

But we can help as we can along the way. Please be courteous as we do so. Thanks! :D


TriBob, from the table:

Power Level RP Range Traits per Category
Standard 1–10 3
Advanced 11–20 4
Monstrous 20+ 5

11 RP quals as advanced, and probably why it was chosen for our actual campaign over the more simple 10 point.

As to grav, any grav effects on me would have the same limiting factor on the aforementioned mage. Some demons might be unaffected, but beyond that, it's not overly relevant. A high-grav plane is what you make for a prison. Low grav? as much of an advantage to me as to the wizard.

~TacticsLion this, exactly. It's an exercise in fun. I expect to win, not because I really think that a fully unbound rogue has a chance against a fully unbound wizard, but because I expect that he's going assume that I'm going to come in fully standard rogue, or with the eldritch scoundrel archetype and start dropping spells everywhere. Either way, I intend to surprise him. Hence non-spellcasting lich, monk attack feats, and the idea of some kind of Disrupting enchanted brass knuckles. Full immunity to death effects, neg levels, and healed by negative energy attacks... and wizards don't have a lot in the way of positive energy spells (do they even have ANY? Other than the piddly little fast healing 1 or 4 one).

You don't beat someone better than you by going toe to toe. You beat them by pulling a rabbit out of your hat, after you pull the hat out of your back side.


That just occasionally happens to INVOLVE going toe-to-toe.


http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/antimagicField.html

Point of order, there's zero save for Anti-magic field. Correct me if I'm wrong, but would this not eliminate any number of advantage spells, supernatural abilities, etc? I vaguely remember someone mentioning it earlier, but I just got around to actually looking up the wording of the spell, not having actually used it since like edition 2.0.


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Yes, but look up the Spellbane (Ariden's Spellbane) spell. If he's a wizard expert he'll have it.


... Activated item of Spellbane, which specifies Spellbane, Wall of Force, Prismatic Wall (need one more good "immune to Antimagic" spell here); and an Antimagic Field subsumed over that? Antimagic field would deal with everything else, and I would assume, if it can NEGATE an antimagic field, it functions within an antimagic field?

I also assume there would have to be caster level duel to find out who would win this if this did work?

Or, hell, one to deal with the anti-magic immune things, plus antimagic field, and a second one to deal with the spells that would normally give him the edge here?


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You're right about the race, for some reason I thought it was the other way around (1-19 standard, 20-29 advanced).

As for the rest, I can only work off of what the OP says. Which changes sometimes.

Zarius wrote:
Quote:

I'll make sure I have a wish scroll or something on hand just for that, though.

So... actually... we also banned Wishes/Miracles on the principal that it's just asking for the universe to ---- in the ---.
Quote:

And I don't care if peeps think he's right. Consider this an exercise in insanity. And since I AM technically insane, shouldn't be much of a stretch.

Then wizards should quit trying to assume they're gods? I mean, seriously... My DM literally said that a L20 Rogue COULD NOT beat a L20 wizard. I find THAT highly offensive.
It's an exercise in fun. I expect to win,
Quote:

This is a 1v1 match-up, plus whatever our *class* features give us and the 800,000 GP value max suggested wealth on the wealth table can buy. I'm guessing he's going to have golems and/or bound/permanancy'ed summoned creatures. Various types of scrying, including Ask God. Plus, obviously, his spells.

By "cheesing" I mean no intentionally using the rules-as-written to do something massively overpowered and clearly meant to be *forbidden* by the rules.
As to blood money, it IS a class feature technically. However, that's a blatant cheese and would invalidate the duel.

Spellbane works like AMF with regards to the spells you choose. If you choose AMF for your Spellbane, then you can't cast AMF (it's in an AMF). If you don't choose AMF then it shuts off your Spellbane when you cast AMF. There's literally no way to have both Spellbane and AMF up at the same time.

Oh, and you may want to read the Magic Item Creation stuff a little closer. The skill unlock for Craft only lets you craft stuff that uses that skill. Craft (blacksmithing) doesn't let you make any weapons or armor or rings. It might let you make metal wondrous items (GM discretion) but that's it.


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When's the big challenge supposed to be going down, and do we get to see a journal of it afterwards?


Amf is the opposite of what you want any way.

Here is how it goes down, assuming favorable conditions for you.

R1 surprise, you cast anti magic field.

R2 you walk up to wizard and attack.

Wizard walks away 10 feet, provoking or whatever, then flies away and starts casting spells that go through amf.

R3 you do, uh, nothing because you have amf up and that Shania your options


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I will most certainly place a Roll-20 transcript up, but I don't know when. As far as I'm aware, my opponent hasn't started his character planning yet. But when I'm done and ready it will basically be "OK, I'M ready for the pissing match. Are you?" and watch him scramble.

Tri-bob - Technically, you are correct. Which means that I would have Craft: Blacksmithing, versus Craft: Alchemy or Craft: Leatherworking. However, since the RAW does not specify that blacksmithing is different from armor or sword smithing, and every blacksmith I know can make swords and breast plates (a mithril breast plate is likely the heaviest armor you'd see a low dex rogue wanting to wear)... Anything that I can make from steel, iron, or other metals falls into the purview. I might not be able to make super, hyper fancy pretty swords. But a killing implement? Easy. Brass knuckles? Cake.

BUT, your statement about the AMF vs Spellbane is what I was looking for there. And, of course, that means that I couldn't use it to cancel out another Spellbane if I wanted to use it with another Spellbane.


There is no other kind of correct here.

Creating Magic Armor wrote:
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (armor).
Creating Magic Weapons wrote:
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).
Creating Rings wrote:
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (jewelry).
Creating Wondrous Items wrote:
Skill Used In Creation: Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check.
If you want to make a magic armor, you are using Spellcraft or Craft (armor). Literally just those two. The skill unlock doesn't change that. In fact, it calls out that you can only make magic stuff you could make normally.
Craft 20 wrote:
You can craft magic armor, magic weapons, magic rings, and wondrous items that fall under your category of Craft using the normal Craft rules.

The table explicitly gives the craft skill for armor and weapons, and it's not "blacksmithing".

Also, Craft (blacksmithing) makes no @#$%ing sense at all. Are you crafting blacksmiths? Pretty sure you need assistants for that. Profession (blacksmith) maybe, but I'm guessing the profession skill unlock doesn't let you craft magic items.


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Get the Covincing Lie talent and pump up your bluff ranks however you can, then convince the wizard that you have already defeated him and that he is, in fact, dead.


Ventnor, that would work except for the PC allowed "automatic disbelief of social skills" perk called "metagaming."

Tell me, Tri-Bob... if there's no Craft (blacksmiting), then how would a party craft a chest made entirely of iron? Or a crowbar, which is neither a weapon nor armor? Mayhap you need a simple wrought-iron cage for an enchanted humpyamawhatever. Nails. Lock picks. Locks, upon which to practice with your picks. Being skilled in a profession, such as Profession (Bartender) doesn't mean you can Craft (Brewing). Someone has to make the alcohol, basic items, etc. Someone that *specializes* in making swords or armor MIGHT be able to make something simple, like a skinning knife, but probably not something fancy like a wrought-iron gate. On the other hand, someone who knows how to make a wrought iron gate can probably make something relatively simple, like a sword. Mayhap not EXOTIC weapons, like some of the REALLY weird oriental weapons, but still. Or, you know, a lump of metal with holes in it with which to punch people.


Hmm...

What is the Wizard actually kitted out with? We know that the Wizard can be hypothetically equipped with any spell for any situation, but has anybody actually defined what the Wizard has for a fact? Let's assume the Wizard has a general idea that some Rogue is out to get him, the Rogue has a general idea where the Wizard is, neither of them has significant social connections or is allowed to make such connections, and that neither of them can generate or replicate an arbitrarily large or infinite amount of wealth/spells (Blood Money + Wish, Simulacrum + Wish, Crafting, etc.) Can someone say what the actual hypothetical Wizard would be buffed up with, what spells he'd have, and how his tower would be laid out?


I think that part of the "fun" is that the rogue probably has no way to know what the wizard is actually kitted out with.

If a hypothetical wizard is needed as a testing dummy, I would suggest finding the stat sheet for Anzyr's level 20 wizard (Arkallion, or something vaguely like that) for use as a tentative baseline. If you can't reliably beat that wizard in a vacuum, you have no hope against a dedicated rogue killer in an entrenched position with heavy support.


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Here's Arkalion, but it's definitely a bit cheesy. It's also slightly out of date, some of the numbers should be lower (from the Courageous change) and some of the background should be different (from Possession being a thing now). In all honesty, probably a few numbers should be higher too.
Here's the defensive stuff though:

Arkalion, Rule of the Grand Cycle wrote:

Initiative: 78 (20 +10 (D1) +13 (Dex) +2 Trait +4 (II) +4 (F) +4 (HA)* +5 Insight* (AP) + 3 Luck + 1 Competence (FPGIS)

+4 (GH+C(+8 MoG))* Morale +4 Enhancement (Dueling))

Senses: Low-Light Vision, Darkvision 60 ft., scent, true seeing
Aura - Unholy Aura, Protective Aura
DR 10/evil

AC: 63 (10 + 6 Armor + 13 Dex + 7 Shield* (MV) +5 Deflection* (SoF), +2 Luck* (US) +20 Natural +1 Insight -1 Size)
HP: 540 (24d10+408)
Fortitude: +37(39) (6 +17 Stat +4(6) Resistance +6 Morale +3 Luck +1 Competence)
Reflex: 33(35) (6 +13 Stat, +4(6) Resistance +6 Morale +3 Luck +1 Competence)
Will: 42(44) (12 +9 Stat, +4(6) Resistance + 6 Morale +3 Luck +1 Competence +2 DM +4 Insight)
Immune: Magic Sleep, Fear, ability damage, acid, blindness, critcal hits, charm and compulsion effects, deafness, death effects, disease, drowning, electricity, fire, acid, cold, petrification, poison, stunning, all spells or attacks that affect your physiology or respiration; Resist cold 30, electricity 30; SR 32
+2 v. enchantment spells and effects

CMD: 40

Spellbane spells: Antimagic Field, Aroden's Spellbane, Mage's Disjunction, Greater Dispel Magic, Mage's Magnificent Enclosure.

Speed: 30 ft. 60 Ft. Fly (Perfect)

Perception +44 / Sense Motive + 37 / Stealth +33

Permanent Spells: Arcane Sight, Tongues, Darkvision, See Invisibiliy

Greater Ring of Inner Fortititude, Ring of Freedom of Movement


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Eh, the minor errors due to rules changes don't decrease Arkalion's value as a testing dummy by much.

As an aside, I lol'd at the Immune line.

Immune: All the things. All of them.


Does not the Arodens Spellbane listing Arodens Spellbane negate itself?
Or is there some ruling that says it is ok? As way back when when I remember the spell first coming out we ruled you could not do such a thing.
MDC


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Short answer, if Spellbane negates itself, then it's no longer negated and begins functioning again, thus negating itself... ad infinitum. Since the spell explicitly says: "This spell can even negate an antimagic field, another instance of this spell, or any spell that specifies immunity to antimagic field", clearly it's intended to allow you to cast Spellbane, specifying Spellbane. It tells you it can do just that.


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Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Short answer, if Spellbane negates itself, then it's no longer negated and begins functioning again, thus negating itself... ad infinitum. Since the spell explicitly says: "This spell can even negate an antimagic field, another instance of this spell, or any spell that specifies immunity to antimagic field", clearly it's intended to allow you to cast Spellbane, specifying Spellbane. It tells you it can do just that.

Thank you very much I think that last I used this spell was way back when it came out in the 80's.

I also think that we ruled that even though anti-magic sphere was like the spellbane it was not the named effect so it would work with the spell. And back in the mid to late 80's we just made our rulings and lived with them as we did not do a lot with the net (I know it was restricted till the 90's ie DARP use only) until the late 90's.

2 other question to the OP:
1) Is getting rid of the demi-plane cheese?
If not then I would remove the demi-plane first.
I also always try and use info from the Art of War to solve problems (if my character would have such knowledge/info) and one of the big one's in the book is something like "Do not attack your enemy where he is at his strongest" so if you dispel/negate the demi-plane then you have shifted the battle to a place to less in his benefit as well as made him sink the gold to make such a thing permanent.

2) If the wizard has any hirelings summoned monsters how many days does he have to pay them for? ie if he can just hire them for the day you are there that is a lot cheaper then having to pay for their services/casting requirements for 1 year (time frame in which you have to attack)

Thanks, enjoying the situation.
MDC


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Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

...

2) If the wizard has any hirelings summoned monsters how many days does he have to pay them for? ie if he can just hire them for the day you are there that is a lot cheaper then having to pay for their services/casting requirements for 1 year (time frame in which you have to attack)
...

Paying wages is for lowly muggles who don't have Dominate X, Charm X and Geas/Quest in their spellbooks.

EDIT: Oh, and the Command Undead feat, if the wizard has access to negative channeling through VMC cleric or something.


If they eat you still have to feed them?

What I am saying is that often in the past when I have seen something like this it is generally a snapshot in that the wizard player takes his $$$ and buys tower, traps(mundane/magical), hirelings and summoned monsters but since the participants think it is just happening out a the normal time stream they do not think of the standard things you would have to in a campaign or normal game.
So if there is not some rule to help out the player who cannot summon/hire/create said extra help it can be a fairly big negative on his side of the equation.
MDC


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... Technically, no, I would not classify getting rid of his demiplane as cheese. How does a rogue, non-Eldritch Scoundrel, dissolve a demiplane, though?


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Scroll of Mage's Disjunction.


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There's no way for a Rogue to get access to Disruptive/Spellbreaker is there? This may be too feat-intensive for a Rogue, but how about Snap Shot/Improved Snap Shot with Combat Patrol to keep the Wizard constantly threatened? A Swashbuckler Rogue gets two combat trick Talents and proficiency with a martial weapon.

1- PBS
2- Rogue Talent: Combat Trick- Precise Shot
3- Rapid Shot
5- Weapon Focus- [Ranged weapon]
7- Dodge
9- Snap Shot
11- Combat Reflexes
13- Improved Snap Snot
15- Mobility
17- Combat Patrol
19- ???

While Combat Patrol requires a full-round action to set up, the Wizard would have to stay at least 30 feet away from you at all times or cast defensively when not using wands/staves. Get Wings of Flying (or an Ointment of Flying to save an item slot) to stay within range of the Wizard. Even without setting up your patrol, you're effectively threaten within 10 feet and don't provoke with a ranged weapon when making AoOs, which means any minions he has will likely get lit up by you when they try to close. With a high Acrobatics and Mobility, you won't have to be too concerned with provoking AoOs after and minions close on you.

Of course, this eats up every single one of your feats, save one, and without access to Spellbreaker, might not even be worth it.


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Attacking the demiplane is possible. Difficult (because you need Limited Wish, Wish, Miracle, or Mage's Disjunction) but possible. The problem is that I don't think you're understanding how demiplanes really work. Demiplanes are (usually) constructed of a few different castings of the spell and multiple different demiplanes (connected by portals). Destroying one demiplane just severs the only route you have to the Wizard and ejects you back to the material plane. You're basically burning the only bridge you have to walk across, while your enemy can fly (the Wizard has full access to all of their demiplanes, even if they become separated, the Rogue needs to travel through the portals/mazes/whatever is on the plane to get anywhere).


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I thought the Wizard was in a tower, not a series of interconnected demiplanes? At most, doesn't that mean they are within a single, specific demiplane? A demiplane that either comprises of, contains, or is within a tower.


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Tower was just a placeholder term for the Wizard's lair. Last thing OP said was:

Zarius wrote:
For the record, the terms are as follows: I have, through any means I choose, gained access to his main base on his private demiplane. That's assumed. I use the term tower because of tradition, not because it's automatically a tower. I might be dealing with scrying nodes (covered), and I might be dealing with summoned monsters (covered). The important part is taking the wizard. So, Lilly, thank you.

So I think that gives us pretty much free reign to build demiplane webs, unless the OP wants to clarify that this requires one single contiguous demiplane that contains some structure in which the Wizard is residing.


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My thought here is Stage 1 (assuming that you've magically gotten past Stage 0 of getting into the wizard's demiplane):
You enter the permanent demiplane of the wizard, finding it is surprisingly a dead-magic demiplane. Inside of the demiplane are 20 horned devils protecting the wizard (from Greater Planar Binding). When you enter the wizard orders all 20 horned devils to attack you and kill you, and the exits via another portal to a non-dead magic demiplane.

Remember, regeneration is an extraordinary ability that the horned devils possess and it is not suppressed in a dead magic area. They are literally unkillable unless you have good aligned weapons or spells (which you can't have in a dead magic area).

Really all this fight boils down to is who is willing to put in more time and research. They will be the one to come up with more clever and cunning plans than the other, and they will win. Ultimately, this only proves which one of you is a more clever player. But really, it wouldn't even prove if your GM is more clever because in a "vacuum" the wizard should and will win. The only thing that can happen here is you prove you are more clever than your GM.


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Alright, so I'm going to lay out a fairly generic paranoid Wizard (they prefer the term "careful"). I'm going to skim over the full build because I'm lazy, but I'll try to include the important bits.

Alice is an Elf 20 Diviner. She has an Int of at least 36 and Dex of at least 24. Wears a haramaki and spiked gauntlet. Contingency is Mislead tied to a verbal cue. Spellbane is set to Spellbane, Antimagic Field, Greater Dispel Magic, Mage's Disjunction, and Mage's Magnificent Enclosure. She has a Ring of Continuation with Shapechange.

She could have as many demiplanes as free time allows if she wants by making a permanent demiplane (using Permanency) and then making it "Timeless with respect to magic", which makes every spell cast on that plane Permanent until dispelled (including Create Demiplane). Since the OP is going to completely ignore any scenario that uses that, we'll just assume she has two permanent demiplanes. One with a clone with Gentle Repose cast on it and Timeless with respect to magic, one which she astrally projects from with a Planetar standing by to heal if necessary. Also something with Plane Shift she has a permament Telepathic Bond with in the event she needs to be notified of anything. She'll live in a "tower" built out of 14 separate castings of Greater Create Demiplane that she renews once every two weeks.

She'll give each casting different traits by expanding the demiplane and then allowing the connection between the castings to expire, creating two distinct demiplanes. Once a demiplane's traits are set she'll expand it in a different dimension before allowing it to expire and then re-expand it back to fill in the gap.

For the specific planes I'm thinking dead magic fire dominant maze staffed by @#$hole imps (Simulacrum or bound). The trick is that it has objective directional gravity, where gravity is "down" on the bottom half of the plane and "up" on the top half. Oh, and the only exit is on the "ceiling".

Then maybe a water level filled with aquatic creatures (Simulacrum or bound). Maybe just a Simulacrum of Cthulhu? Also dead magic, because why not?

1000 feet shaft straight up dead magic plane with a bunch of chairs. No walls (we'll go with "featureless void"). One chair is an animated object (using Craft Construct) to respond and carry anyone sitting on it to the ceiling if they can sing some song that Alice made up just for that chair.

Timeless with respect to magic Simulacrum Hekatonkheires with as many buff spells on it as possible. Telepathic Bond for sure. Maybe some minions for it. Wall of Suppression on the entrance, Wall of Lava/Prismatic Wall/some other walls on the exit.

Dead magic plane with something beefy, preferably with regeneration and DR. Adamantine Golem? Give it a brain so it can max perception?

I'm sure other people can think of more. Since she can bring along 10 other creatures during the Astral Projection, most of the Simulacrum or golems can be reused if the "tower" falls.

I'll be honest, I don't really see the Rogue passing any of these. Maybe the first one, but combat with robo-cthulhu with no way to hide (no invisibility, no Shadowdancer HiPS, very unlikely you took HiPS (underwater)) is going to be a massacre. I don't know what exact stats you would give the half HD version, but it'd still be a massacre. Then the "every buff spell Alice has" Hekatonkheires is very similar, especially since the Rogue has to lose their magic for 21 rounds ("Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no"). Oh, and once the Rogue fights Hekatonkheires Alice knows the Rogue is there and can find them with clairaudience (if necessary) and force them to make a DC 32 Will save every round or "get off her lawn". Scrying Familiarity helps here, but it'll most likely be the Rogue's non-magical Stealth versus Alice's caster level, which is a lot closer (and assumes you can make that specific Stealth check without HiPS). Once the Rogue is removed she can then break the demiplane chain somewhere farther down so the Rogue won't bother her again while she hunts them down.

Alice ends her day crank calling gods to ask if she'll be ambushed tomorrow. If so she'll prepare more castings to ask more specific questions, learning who or what is coming for her. If she finds out a Rogue is coming (and she probably will) then she'll sit around all day in Air Elemental form, comfortably immune to bleed, sneak attack, and critical hits. Immunity to critical hits will also negate Stunning Fist.


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Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Wizards shenanigans

Stuff like this is why I'm following this thread.

RofR:
I guess stuff like the above is why Karzoug must be defeated while still imprisoned


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I was asking the demi-plane question as a general question and then I was going to try and remember how to get ride of it.

Now after reading the spell while posting the original question I did not think of linking demi-planes but when you expanded on a demi-plane that it would link the two spells together into 1 spell and thus dispelling one would dispel them both. Even though you need multiple permanency spells we used to play that they were linked as 1.
So some advanced knowledge of what the actual terrain/location is going to be would be of great benefit to the rogue. ie astral or ethereal space and possibly getting back into or bypassing whole areas by jumping to the end area where the mage is located.
Which IMHO is the idea right, get to the mage and not have to waste resources on the things he set up for you to waste resources on. ie the lock is very tough but the door frame is much easier to remove so you dismantle the frame and by-pass the lock.

This reminds me of a game we had back in the 80's when the GM did the same thing and a player just got rid of the demi-plane dumping people back the material plane for a big battle. We did not have to go through all of the various traps and protections the wizard had set up also as the spells description says it only dumps people back to the closest plane upon dispelling and objects are lost (which was a bummer as that was all the treasure that was not on the peoples bodies).
We had to end the night early as that was all the GM had planned for the next session or so and the one player just really messed up the GM's whole line of thinking.

MDC


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Claxon wrote:

My thought here is Stage 1 (assuming that you've magically gotten past Stage 0 of getting into the wizard's demiplane):

You enter the permanent demiplane of the wizard, finding it is surprisingly a dead-magic demiplane. Inside of the demiplane are 20 horned devils protecting the wizard (from Greater Planar Binding). When you enter the wizard orders all 20 horned devils to attack you and kill you, and the exits via another portal to a non-dead magic demiplane

Given the same infinite resources, the eldritch scoundrel brings 1,000 lantern archons summoned using Planar Binding, blasting the horned devils into ash in a single round.

As long as infinite resources are assumed via Blood Magic, no meaningful conversation can take place.

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