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Been on a few gigs recently where stealth's been possible. If the frontline consists of rangers, skalds and archers, trying stealth is worth the bother. I mean, I rarely see it trained, but distance penalties, mediocre Dex mods and walls can go a long way.
Which why I take my stoneplated stonelord stoneman on every substerfugous(it's word now, piss off Svartvik) mission I can!
Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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Add me to the list of people disappointed by the nerf to the Jingasa.
I had it on exactly one of my characters, was planning to get it on a second. The second now will have to get by with a non-magical jingasa. Neither character had the Fate's Favored trait, they were both looking for the critical hit negation.
The one character that owns it will be selling it back. Still figuring out what I replace it with.
There should be some items that are just better than other options. This happens with a lot of things, both in game and in real life. Although something being popular can indicate an item might be overpowered, that isn't always the case.
To those who evidently poll their players at every table (else how would you know how many Jingasa's there were), how is Handy Haversack doing on those polls? Curious, since that generally allows those who dump Strength to still carry a reasonable amount of gear. I know that I've got the Handy Haversack on more characters than had the Jingasa.
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Last mission I was on where we needed to sneak in, I turned to the Hellknight in the party and offered him my Elixer of Hiding. He looked it over and asked the judge if he could buy one in the market on the way - so between that and the invisibility I cast on him (and the fact that he just needed to ride in the back of a wagon) we got him into the area un-noticed.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I always think of Christopher Lee's Sarumann summoning up the ill wind in Fellowship when I read this. It does make me wonder how "Charm Person" could ever work... So obvious. I guess I need to get with the program and start making Occult characters :(Silent Metamagic is a thing.
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Online game patches tend to buff options as well to bring them up to par. Erratas have been significantly in favor of only making the options worse. Any well-known character option can probably expect a nerf at this point.
See, for me, the issue is this. A lot of the recent and semi recent nerfs have been frustrating. But I can absolutely live with them.
What is intensely frustrating, in our shared PFS sense, is not being able to properly account for this high volume of changes by just being given full rebuilds.
Some folks are against that because they just dislike rebuilds. Some are against it because of book keeping. Some because it can lead to some PCs becoming much stronger or very different. My response to all of this is the same: so? Isn't the reason we play this game to have as much fun as possible? Documentation for a full rebuild is as easy as one additional sheet of paper that says:
Race changed from x to x.
Classes changes from x to x.
Attributes changed from x to x.
Feats and Skills redistributed as appropriate based on above changes.
X items purchased, on chronicle sheet x.
GM signed here.
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Why get full rebuilds? I have a staff of the master on almost everyone of my casters, and I'm a-ok with the nerf, and won't be retraining my Metamagic feats. It's a 30 staff. You're most likely 8 or 9 before being able to afford it, so the fact that the feats you took previous to purchase can be retrained is silly.
Nerfs happen, rocks fall, blah blah.
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Why get full rebuilds? I have a staff of the master on almost everyone of my casters, and I'm a-ok with the nerf, and won't be retraining my Metamagic feats. It's a 30 staff. You're most likely 8 or 9 before being able to afford it, so the fact that the feats you took previous to purchase can be retrained is silly.
Nerfs happen, rocks fall, blah blah.
Because "staff of the master is better than having the feats" I didn't take feats because I had staff of the master. I may have been relying on it for all the metamagic feats that i needed and i still need those feats for my build" is a very plausible scenario.
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I wonder - did the responsible team believe it reasonable to cripple items that were too popular, rather than simply balancing them? Did they not realise that these items were being crippled when they made the changes, thinking the end results to be reasonable value? Or did they let items that were in need of crippling exist for four years before doing anything about them?
None of the options speak well about their understanding of game balance.
People have created entire builds around these items (we've had several examples just from this thread, which represents what proportion of the community?), and unless you're going to claim that this is actually a bad thing that shouldn't happen (wrongbadfun?) then I ask you what items have been brought up that people will design characters around?
The Jaunt boots maybe? I don't see how, but someone else might. The weapon enchantment that was buffed (can't remember the name) looks cool and some people (the magus... investigators... inquisitors maybe) might create a build around it even if it's not quite as strong as a +1. But that's about it.
There's a few strong items, and a bunch of them got burnt to the ground, and then some of them had the ashes pissed on for good measure (would you get a small boost on saves vs. fear instead of a +1 enhance?). There's so, so many weak ones that are just wasting away never even being looked at. The Jaunt boots weren't even buffed because they were weak, so much as because they were unusable. Why so little love for the weak items that populate the books (I challenge people to find 3 armour enchantments that are superior to the equivalent +x in over 10% of cases)? Do we need to wait for a new book to come out and then sift through all the stale bloat to find the odd gem? Is that really the direction Paizo wants to head?
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I have long felt that that errata changes should be reserved for game-breaking problems, not minor tweaks. Apparently, based upon most of these changes, Paizo disagrees with me. Notably, I personally have about five or six characters affected by these changes (jingasa and gloves of reconnaissance), and for no really good reason I am going to have to slog through each of the character sheets to make these nonsense changes. I truly have better things to do with my time.
Some of these changes have also broken some of my builds. For example, I have an arcane bloodlined bloodrager with the steelblooded archetype and fate's favored feat that will lose +2 AC in a build that was on the margin of it being worth it to optimize AC. If these changes had been known to me when I created the character, I would have either gone the destined bloodline (which gives a luck bonus to AC) or not tried to optimize AC at all by skipping steelblooded for much more mobility and other useful traditional Barbarian abilities. Yet is there any talk of allowing switches in bloodlines or changes of archetypes? No.
The simple fact of the matter is that Paizo needs to either grandfather this stuff in or allow broad rebuilding of affected characters. As I have brought up in prior threads, it is up to the player to know when a character has been broken (i.e., the goals of creating the character cannot be attained) by changes. While I can understand that Paizo has some legitimate concerns about continuity of the game, it is the ceaseless errata that is destroying the continuity of the game, not the prospect of rebuilds.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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(I challenge people to find 3 armour enchantments that are superior to the equivalent +x in over 10% of cases)? Do we need to wait for a new book to come out and then sift through all the stale bloat to find the odd gem? Is that really the direction Paizo wants to head?
Folding, balanced, and Withstanding though the Withstanding is something that I would use primarily with an Occultist.
EDIT:Folding would get rid of the penalties for constantly walking around with a tower shield. Balanced exchanges Enhancement Bonus for a bonus to a particular save.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Jared: Why would you do that? The Jingasa cannot be upgraded. The ring can. Mechanically speaking there is no reason for it. Also, for RP value your character can still wear a Jingasa whether it is magical or not so I am fairly confused...
Because I *don't* upgrade my rings. For non front line characters, I *cannot* get a competetive level of AC on them.
So:
Druid-Oracle-Barbarian. Buckets of Hitpoints, DR, but low AC. 6000 gp is better spent on things like resevoir of physical prowess. Any attack where another +1 AC would make a difference is probably going to be stopped by my DR 10
Swashbucker-Gunslinger-Investigator, yeah, probably going to buy +2 ring
Bloatmage, +1 vs +2 AC is the difference between being hit on a 2, or being hit on a 2. On the other hand, he has more hitpoints than some front liners, and can go to -21 without dying. The only thing that has ever threatened to kill him is 4x crit. I'd rather have the one shot crit save and buy a new one after the adventure.
Bard-alchemist. stopped playing him about 9th level, I made some poor multiclassing choices, and some of his stuff didn't scale up well as a result. Still, had a lot of other ways to not get hit, and never bought RoP above +1.
Wayang-summoner. Would rather have a second ring slot for ring of invisibility than +2 RoP
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Why get full rebuilds? I have a staff of the master on almost everyone of my casters, and I'm a-ok with the nerf, and won't be retraining my Metamagic feats. It's a 30 staff. You're most likely 8 or 9 before being able to afford it, so the fact that the feats you took previous to purchase can be retrained is silly.
Nerfs happen, rocks fall, blah blah.
What is offered is hardly a full rebuild. Some casters, such as my only Seeker level character (who has been waiting more than a year to do eyes of the ten and only bought the staff after his last 11th level adventure), have metamagic feats solely to use them through the staff. In my instance, I actually retained one of my feats to get an extra metamagic feat to use with the staff. If anything, I think I should get these retraining costs back in addition to a free retraining.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Fwew. Got to the end of all this. I'm another disappointed in the changes, but will admit that I'm part of the problem that spawned them.
Of my 17 developed characters, 9 had Jingasas and 6 were planning on buying them. (The other 2 had a Maiden Helm and a Circlet of Persuasion). I'll need to consider how they proceed, which will largely depend on the resale value. I would be willing to keep using it with a 2500gp recharge cost, even with an often non-functional deflection bonus. The plus side of the nerf is that it simplifies my character portraits a lot, as aesthetically working in a helmet didn't work with some characters.
The feather step slippers affects 4 of my characters, but as 2 are retired and 1 I no longer enjoy playing (for other reasons) I only have to really deal with it on one character, and his build doesn't rely on it. Generally I prefer Sandals of Quick Reaction or Boots of the Cat.
I like the clarification on Bonebreaker Gauntlets. I have one character with them and has been using them as bracers based on the chapter they were in, but this simplifies things. Aesthetically I would have preferred them as glove slot, but oh well. (They're on my level 11 Sczarni information broker who bought them for flavor when he ran out of useful things to buy)
Ring of Revelation I had on my cold caster, who had dipped a level of Oracle of Winter and used the ring to get a second revelation. Which is I think how it was intended and still works.
I'm glad to see the nerf to the gloves of reconnaissance. They were incredibly annoying to GM. Now if we can just get rid of things that give PCs the Scent ability...
Brawling I think I had considered once, but didn't pick up. I just wish the change had also put in something to clarify that it CAN be put on Mithral Medium armor instead of having to chase down properties.
I'll check again with sheets in front of me, but I don't think any of the rest is affecting me.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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I challenge people to find 3 armour enchantments that are superior to the equivalent +x in over 10% of cases
Spell Storing finds its way onto many of my characters, especially casters with Haramaki's. Typically with a Force Punch or a Frigid Touch on it.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Jared: Why would you do that? The Jingasa cannot be upgraded. The ring can. Mechanically speaking there is no reason for it. Also, for RP value your character can still wear a Jingasa whether it is magical or not so I am fairly confused...Because I *don't* upgrade my rings. For non front line characters, I *cannot* get a competetive level of AC on them.
I've got a variant on this. If I'm looking to magically improve my AC, the order is: +1 to armor, +1 to shield, +1 jingasa (luck+), +1 ring (Deflect), +1 amulet (natural), +1 dusty rose ioun (insight), +2 armor, +2 shield, then finally upgrade the ring to +2.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I challenge people to find 3 armour enchantments that are superior to the equivalent +x in over 10% of casesSpell Storing finds its way onto many of my characters, especially casters with Haramaki's. Typically with a Force Punch or a Frigid Touch on it.
There is a local life oracle with bestow curse. He will walk through big bad fights intentionally provoking AoO, on the grounds that he would rather heal himself once, than heal all the hits that are going to miss because of that -4 to hit...
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SHEEPLE STOP!!!
Don't you see the real crime here?!?
What's wrong with ye?
Dwarven Stout has DOUBLED in price to 4 cp!!
DOUBLED!!The game is ruined lads! Ruined! My dwarven-Culture-obsessed Gnome will be bankrupt in no time!!
Slippers and Jingasas, lads and ladies, be damned!
We're talking about BEER!
OMG! How did I miss that!
Not only an errata - but a major STEALTH ERRATA!
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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There is a local life oracle with bestow curse. He will walk through big bad fights intentionally provoking AoO, on the grounds that he would rather heal himself once, than heal all the hits that are going to miss because of that -4 to hit...I challenge people to find 3 armour enchantments that are superior to the equivalent +x in over 10% of casesSpell Storing finds its way onto many of my characters, especially casters with Haramaki's. Typically with a Force Punch or a Frigid Touch on it.
My seeker uses bestow curse as anti grappling. That 50% chance to do nothing that turn means they can't maintain the grapple... Of course she can also icy prison them...
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Brawling I think I had considered once, but didn't pick up. I just wish the change had also put in something to clarify that it CAN be put on Mithral Medium armor instead of having to chase down properties.
I'll check again with sheets in front of me, but I don't think any of the rest is affecting me.
They have a FAQ that explicitly says you cannot have brawling on mithral medium armor.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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They have a FAQ that explicitly says you cannot have brawling on mithral medium armor.Brawling I think I had considered once, but didn't pick up. I just wish the change had also put in something to clarify that it CAN be put on Mithral Medium armor instead of having to chase down properties.
I'll check again with sheets in front of me, but I don't think any of the rest is affecting me.
And this is why they should have pointed that out when they revised the item.
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SHEEPLE STOP!!!
Don't you see the real crime here?!?
What's wrong with ye?
Dwarven Stout has DOUBLED in price to 4 cp!!
DOUBLED!!The game is ruined lads! Ruined! My dwarven-Culture-obsessed Gnome will be bankrupt in no time!!
Slippers and Jingasas, lads and ladies, be damned!
We're talking about BEER!
We regret to inform you, due to inflation (and pesky gnomes shaving coins) we've been forced to double the cost of Stout to keep up with rising costs. We sincerely appreciate your patronage of our fine beverage and hope that you will continue to consume our swil... pristine beverage by the gallon.
Sincerely,The Management
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Why get full rebuilds? I have a staff of the master on almost everyone of my casters, and I'm a-ok with the nerf, and won't be retraining my Metamagic feats. It's a 30 staff. You're most likely 8 or 9 before being able to afford it, so the fact that the feats you took previous to purchase can be retrained is silly.
Nerfs happen, rocks fall, blah blah.
The rebuilds would hardly be for one single change. In the last year and a half, we have had several pages of changed material, from feats to magic items.
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There is a local life oracle with bestow curse. He will walk through big bad fights intentionally provoking AoO, on the grounds that he would rather heal himself once, than heal all the hits that are going to miss because of that -4 to hit...I challenge people to find 3 armour enchantments that are superior to the equivalent +x in over 10% of casesSpell Storing finds its way onto many of my characters, especially casters with Haramaki's. Typically with a Force Punch or a Frigid Touch on it.
I'm guilty of that myself, though I used the Jingasa to make sure a ridiculous critical didn't down me in one hit . . .
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On vacation so I can't look over the full doccument yet, but the Jingasa nerf has me... mildly concerned. Not a lot, but a little. I've alwaus been skittish about making a nonmagical character.
Right now I only have one on my A-Summoner and that's because he's been the victim of back-to-back natural 20 double crits on two seperate occasions. I also have a mounted halfling that was planning ongl getting it. He has Fate's Favored and everything. At least I still have his amazing alternate racial and an eventual Luckstone to sate his need for making use of the trait.
Overall, I'll be just fine, but I feel for those players who don't use the forums. The ones who're going to have this news sprung on them mid convention. The ones who will have to rebuild a sizable chunk of their character(s).
Back to the big six. It was fun while it laster.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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(I challenge people to find 3 armour enchantments that are superior to the equivalent +x in over 10% of cases)Folding, balanced, and Withstanding though the Withstanding is something that I would use primarily with an Occultist.
EDIT:
Folding would get rid of the penalties for constantly walking around with a tower shield. Balanced exchanges Enhancement Bonus for a bonus to a particular save.
Do you have links to any of these? Because I cannot find Withstanding anywhere (and, by "I would use primarily with an Occultist", are you suggesting that Occultists make up 10% of cases?)
By folding, do you mean the specific magic armour Folding Plate? http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-armor/foldin g-plateAnd Balanced appears to be a +4 on CMD vs trip & overrun, which I struggle to see as being worth a +1 in 10% of cases.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/magic-armor-and-shield-spec ial-abilities/balanced
Contributor
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Do you have links to any of these? Because I cannot find Withstanding anywhere (and, by "I would use primarily with an Occultist", are you suggesting that Occultists make up 10% of cases?)
All three are from the recent Armor Master's Handbook. In the case of balanced, there are now two different armor/shield abilities with that name. ^_^
Balanced is assigned a save at creation. As an immediate action, you can trade shield enhancement for an enhancement bonus on that save until your next turn.
Folding lets you transform your shield into a buckler, heavy, or tower shield.
Withstanding is basically a bane shield - +2 Knowledge about the relevant creature type, and 50% fortification against their attacks.
Each is a +1 bonus-equivalent ability.
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I challenge people to find 3 armour enchantments that are superior to the equivalent +x in over 10% of casesSpell Storing finds its way onto many of my characters, especially casters with Haramaki's. Typically with a Force Punch or a Frigid Touch on it.
Wizards with Haramaki's can do it, Magi, Hunters, Bloodragers, Warpriests, Bards... that's probably not even half of the list of people who can use it. And at only a +1 equivalent for up to third level, I'll totally pay that as being worth a +1 in more than just corner cases. Certainly not all, even for casters, as it's a single use per fight and then requires a new spell put in there, but it certainly fits my criteria as presented.
So we're at 1/3 :P
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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I challenge people to find 3 armour enchantments that are superior to the equivalent +x in over 10% of casesSpell Storing finds its way onto many of my characters, especially casters with Haramaki's. Typically with a Force Punch or a Frigid Touch on it.Wizards with Haramaki's can do it, Magi, Hunters, Bloodragers, Warpriests, Bards... that's probably not even half of the list of people who can use it. And at only a +1 equivalent for up to third level, I'll totally pay that as being worth a +1 in more than just corner cases. Certainly not all, even for casters, as it's a single use per fight and then requires a new spell put in there, but it certainly fits my criteria as presented.
So we're at 1/3 :P
Wild armor? Mostly for druids, but very nice for them.
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I'm not sure how I feel about the Jingasa. It was one of the every party member needs one items for our Eyes of the Ten run and it has come in very handy. However being good doesn't in and of itself seem to be reason to nerf an item.
It isn't like there are a bunch of other head slot items competing for use. Now that the Jingasa is no longer any good I doubt most PC's will fill the slot except for CHA based ones who will continue to use the circlet of persuasion.
See previous posts on the inaccuracy of the statement regarding "needing" the hat, and the one with the roughly 10 items at or below the cost of a Jingasa that nicely fill the head slot.
Heck, the buffering hat alone fills in the role of the Jingasa for crit reductions.
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Wild armor? Mostly for druids, but very nice for them.
Vastly ovepriced now that it keeps you encumbered and whatnot. Druids local 704 recommends the highly overlooked option of assuming your favorite combat form, buying barding for that, and acquiring a wand of mage armor that you put on under your other armor in case you need to swap forms.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Vastly ovepriced now that it keeps you encumbered and whatnot. Druids local 704 recommends the highly overlooked option of assuming your favorite combat form, buying barding for that, and acquiring a wand of mage armor that you put on under your other armor in case you need to swap forms.
Wild armor? Mostly for druids, but very nice for them.
Fair enough
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The only good thing.
Unless you're really desperate for some beats.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Do you have links to any of these? Because I cannot find Withstanding anywhere (and, by "I would use primarily with an Occultist", are you suggesting that Occultists make up 10% of cases?)All three are from the recent Armor Master's Handbook. In the case of balanced, there are now two different armor/shield abilities with that name. ^_^
Balanced is assigned a save at creation. As an immediate action, you can trade shield enhancement for an enhancement bonus on that save until your next turn.
Folding lets you transform your shield into a buckler, heavy, or tower shield.
Withstanding is basically a bane shield - +2 Knowledge about the relevant creature type, and 50% fortification against their attacks.
Each is a +1 bonus-equivalent ability.
I really hate the fact that there are two names because at some point if Balanced v2 becomes legal I might actually use it. Hell I might use both on the same character. Also, Blood of Shadows had a really good shield enchantment too but that one was banned for PFS namely because it granted uses of searing light for every + on a shield.
As for the remark with the Occultist it fundamentally makes the enhancements you'd never particularly want to pick up permanently useful because of the class abilities from the Transmutation/Abjuration schools that give enhancement bonuses.