Ultimate Equipment (Second Printing)


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Muser wrote:

I want to add to that list: Helm of the Mammoth Lord, Goz Mask, Shadow Fletching, Mask of the Mantis(it's on a chronicle or two) and Veil of Fleeting Glances.

Now, if you want a useless slot, check out Wrist. I mean I kinda see a few choice ones if you happen to be of certain class or ethnicity, but meh.

Are you kidding? Spellguard Bracers are da bomb.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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MisterSlanky wrote:
Well as somebody that has chosen not to buy the Jingasa because, "why would my character that's never been to Tian Xia want to buy a Tian hat" and "why would my fighter who grew up in Tandan nobility want to not wear something of the highest fashion instead,"

That's a matter purely of aesthetics and appearance, which would only matter if you think that an item can't look different. Jingasa just means war hat, a pith helmet is a hat you wear for war, so your jingasa could very well look like a pith helmet if you want it to. (edit- apparently pith means cork, which is what most of them were made out of. Pretty sure theres a metal one that looks similar though)

Hats of disguise- Overpowered :), but not always very useful in combat.

Besmara's tricorne (which replicates another item that's saved my bacon on more than one occasion)- If you're not a worshiper of besmara whis is just a very expensive set of masterwork swim floaties.

buffering hats- a watered down jingasa.

holy masks of the living gods: Cool but everyone has wands anyway.

helm of comprehend languages and read magic: bucket of scrolls is far cheaper.

maiden's helm, Skill booster. Good if you're built around the skill but otherwise.

mask of conflicting energy: Casters weren't really in the market for a jingasa anyway.

circlet of persuasion: Great for socialites. Fighting types? Not so much.

grappler's mask: If you grapple you need the feat anyway. If you don't , its not the best idea.

explorer's pith helmet (which is both an awesome and thematic item): Wands of endure elements are cheaper and last 24 hours.

Most I pick because they're right for the character (my hellknight isn't buying a pith helmet).: Oh come on! Whats more lawful than stopping in the middle of a battle to brew tea!

Quote:
The list is really quite cool if you actually read into it and try to find something that fits your character and has its use. Not everything needs to be "always on" and the "best choice".

Its not about best choice its about remotely worth the cost. I can put a pith helmet on a character (for free usually). The cooler items simply cost far too much for what they actually do.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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I actually am unaffected by the current batch of errata. The jingasa was great, but I didn't have any characters that wore it, and I only ever had one mnemonic vestment.

However, this does not mean that I want options to disappear for others. I think that all the nerfs so far have been more punitive than balancing, and I consider that a worrisome trend.

Rebalance, that's fine. But please, PDT, don't go so far. Shifiting either the luck bonus or the crit protection on the Jingasa would have likely been enough to rebalance it, and shift its popularity without making it a very expensive non upgradable ring of protection.

Hmm

PS Looking back on what I just wrote, I think I should just stop speaking as myself on this one and just have Lyric do all my protests... She does it with more style.

Silver Crusade

John, please also take a look at the One Way Window (in the ACG). It effectively can be used like the Gloves of Reconnaissance and can be heavily abused.

One Way Window totally nerfed this scenario:
Haunting of Hinojai


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Hey Lyric, you can change your song from 'seven color' to 'decoy'!

The decoy ring is unaffected by any of this craziness. 12,000gp for 2 rounds of unbreakable invisibility _whenever I darn well please_, _plus_ illusionary duplicates.

My slayer/rogue gives obeisance to the Demigod of Retconjuration, and promptly disappears (and sprays illusionary duplicates of himself everywhere).


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So how do you fix a character to deal with these changes? My brawling armor has jumped 12,000gp. I saved up for the armor and bought it as soon as I could. Had it been more expensive when I bought it, I would had continued saving. Can I sell all the other stuff I bought at full price to buy the armor or are brawling armor users just screwed?

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Merm7th wrote:
So how do you fix a character to deal with these changes? My brawling armor has jumped 12,000gp. I saved up for the armor and bought it as soon as I could. Had it been more expensive when I bought it, I would had continued saving. Can I sell all the other stuff I bought at full price to buy the armor or are brawler armor users just screwed?

Usually the latter.

If they don't get you an exception, you'll make the money for it faster than you think, don't worry.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Muser wrote:

I want to add to that list: Helm of the Mammoth Lord, Goz Mask, Shadow Fletching, Mask of the Mantis(it's on a chronicle or two) and Veil of Fleeting Glances.

Now, if you want a useless slot, check out Wrist. I mean I kinda see a few choice ones if you happen to be of certain class or ethnicity, but meh.

Umm.. First aid gloves?

2 breath of lifes that any class can use, and no need to draw them?

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

Those first aid gloves are awesome!

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Jared Thaler wrote:
Muser wrote:

I want to add to that list: Helm of the Mammoth Lord, Goz Mask, Shadow Fletching, Mask of the Mantis(it's on a chronicle or two) and Veil of Fleeting Glances.

Now, if you want a useless slot, check out Wrist. I mean I kinda see a few choice ones if you happen to be of certain class or ethnicity, but meh.

Umm.. First aid gloves?

2 breath of lifes that any class can use, and no need to draw them?

Wrists and hands are different slots.


Still, 2 "Get back up!" uses are pretty decent for 4,500gp. I like it.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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RainyDayNinja wrote:
Jared Thaler wrote:
Muser wrote:

I want to add to that list: Helm of the Mammoth Lord, Goz Mask, Shadow Fletching, Mask of the Mantis(it's on a chronicle or two) and Veil of Fleeting Glances.

Now, if you want a useless slot, check out Wrist. I mean I kinda see a few choice ones if you happen to be of certain class or ethnicity, but meh.

Umm.. First aid gloves?

2 breath of lifes that any class can use, and no need to draw them?

Wrists and hands are different slots.

Word up.

Hands slot is love. Hands slot is life.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Merm7th wrote:
So how do you fix a character to deal with these changes? My brawling armor has jumped 12,000gp. I saved up for the armor and bought it as soon as I could. Had it been more expensive when I bought it, I would had continued saving. Can I sell all the other stuff I bought at full price to buy the armor or are brawler armor users just screwed?

Usually the latter.

If they don't get you an exception, you'll make the money for it faster than you think, don't worry.

Do I at least get the full cost of the enhancement back?

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Muser wrote:
RainyDayNinja wrote:
Jared Thaler wrote:
Muser wrote:

I want to add to that list: Helm of the Mammoth Lord, Goz Mask, Shadow Fletching, Mask of the Mantis(it's on a chronicle or two) and Veil of Fleeting Glances.

Now, if you want a useless slot, check out Wrist. I mean I kinda see a few choice ones if you happen to be of certain class or ethnicity, but meh.

Umm.. First aid gloves?

2 breath of lifes that any class can use, and no need to draw them?

Wrists and hands are different slots.

Word up.

Hands slot is love. Hands slot is life.

*Shows off knuckle tats*

1AID GLVS

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Merm7th wrote:


Do I at least get the full cost of the enhancement back?

Yes

Guide page 29: If the price of an item changes to become more expensive:
ell back the affected equipment at its original full market
alue based on its remaining number of charges (if any). So
long as you have enough gp and Fame, you can purchase
he same item at its updated cost.


Can Oracles with Rings of Revelation containing Revelations from other Mysteries sell them back at full price? Or at least change the Revelation to one of their actual Mystery?

Does the clarification to the Ring of Revelation also affect the Soothsayer's Raiment?

If so, can the Soothsayer's Raiment be sold back at full price?

The Exchange

No errata doesn't affect items other than what it calls out. Why would it.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Agent, Kentucky—Lexington

Disk Elemental wrote:
MisterSlanky wrote:
When every single character you encounter has one
The problem is with crits, the fact the Jingasa is required at upper levels tells you how borked the system is.

Funny thing, every character I've built has one.

I've never once used the anti crit action. Not because I hated it. I just never bother to remember all the little 1/day things in combat.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Ragoz wrote:
No errata doesn't affect items other than what it calls out. Why would it.

If an item is changed you can sell it back, as per page 29 of the guide.

If they had clarified the ring of revelations like that he'd be stuck with it, but since they changed the text they can sell it back

Grand Lodge

Lamontius wrote:

YES

we have no spring-loaded wrist sheathes

Can you tell me where it says this? I can't find where it is written.


Ragoz wrote:
No errata doesn't affect items other than what it calls out. Why would it.

Because the Soothsayer's Raiment has near-identical wording to the Ring of Revelation, and, as written, still allows Oracles to poach revelations from other Mysteries with UMD.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
If an item is changed you can sell it back, as per page 29 of the guide.

Unfortunately, the Guide only allows items to be sold back If the price of an item changes to become more expensive. Hence why I'm asking.

4/5

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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Talon Thorne wrote:
Lamontius wrote:

YES

we have no spring-loaded wrist sheathes
Can you tell me where it says this? I can't find where it is written.

Not sure how anyone would think that these have changed since they're not in UE. That's an Adventurer's Armory item.

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

I have two oracles in society play. I never dared pick up the Ring of Revelations to try to UMD another oracle's mystery, though I thought about it before discarding the idea. Right now, the only way for oracles to play with another mystery's toys is by becoming a Spirit Guide archetype right out of the gate. Or bypass oracle altogether and just be a shaman.

What's interesting about Spirit Guide is that the most O.P. oracle revelations are NOT available: no awesome display, no sidestep secret, etc. So what is left are all the flavorful ones that you can change around each day, depending on the adventure that you're anticipating.

Lovely.

Hmm

The Exchange

I know what the item does. That doesn't change that errata only alters what it has called out.

Sovereign Court 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

"My dumb family not only kicked me out, they never gave me enough money for a ring."

___

Pouty little Bobbi here is my other oracle, but I went with a different archetype for her and am LOVING it. She's a psychic searcher, which means she gets inspiration dice! She's a full caster, and she has great skills. She doesn't get to play with other oracle mysteries like Lyric does, but hey... she's still a very strong PFS character that I'm having a lot of fun with.

I'm of mixed feelings about those rings of revelation. On the one hand, my characters would have LOVED to steal a hand-picked revelation from another mystery. On the other hand... I'm actually glad that you have to take a class in oracle to play with oracle toys. Not having those rings around ensures that each mystery stays unique and distinctive.

Hmm

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

PolydactylPolymath wrote:
Ragoz wrote:
No errata doesn't affect items other than what it calls out. Why would it.

Because the Soothsayer's Raiment has near-identical wording to the Ring of Revelation, and, as written, still allows Oracles to poach revelations from other Mysteries with UMD.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
If an item is changed you can sell it back, as per page 29 of the guide.
Unfortunately, the Guide only allows items to be sold back If the price of an item changes to become more expensive. Hence why I'm asking.

Huh. its a FEAT that changes you can swap it out, items only more expensive.... really really weird.

Is there any reason its not a general rule that if they changed the text of something you can swap it out?

Sovereign Court

I don't own any of these items but they come up all the time in judging. Just to be clear, your turn now ends after using the Quickrunner shirt correct? (Thankfully you can no longer switch shirts between combats)

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Right so no hustle, er, shirt charge.

But this shouldn't have come up at all... It wasn't/isn't legal

Sovereign Court

Matthew Morris wrote:

Right so no hustle, er, shirt charge.

But this shouldn't have come up at all... It wasn't/isn't legal

Guys use them in the adventure paths I play in all the time.

Hopefully they will make it legal now. No reason for it to be banned at this point.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Agent, Kentucky—Lexington

Jeff Merola wrote:
]Uh, what? Except towards the end of its life 3.5 definitely issued a bunch of errata, and didn't even restrict it to only being issued when a new printing was being run.

We can all say what we like on the errata, but I appreciate it greatly. Only a few touched my characters:

  • Ring of Inner Fortitude ------------ Cazic Thule abused blood money with the ring, so I'd sell the ring now.
  • Feather Step Slippers -------------- Everyone I played has one, I don't have a second best feet item.
  • Cap of the Free Thinker ------------ Roland has +3 Will at 11th level - probably a character design flaw I tried to fix with an item
  • Jingasa of the Fortuneate Soldier - Everyone I played used it for Luck ac not the crit.

I'm very confident that WotC only released the FAQ because they already considered 3.5 was "dead to them" and because I personally compiled the Book of Heavily Debated Topics making it easy to rattle off responses.

I found the wizards.com forums difficult to navigate at the time, because WotC rules said "only Errata changes the rules - FAQ and developer response are not binding". So we had endless supply of more and more extreme rules interpretations without bound. Like:

  • Unlimited stacking of night sticks for +4 turns per stick
  • Pun-Pun was a thing
  • Persist a spell then expend it to get 2,592,000 ft movement this turn.
  • I replaced my Dex with my Con, I don't care the developer says I'm still limited to max dex (now max con) because that isn't errata.
  • Ring of sustenance means I get 9 sets of "spells per day" because spells per day doesn't mean per day.
  • pick any of the 40 to 60 or so heavily fought subjects

All of that strife during 3.5 prime on wizard.com's forums made finding rules answers impossible. We might think things are bad now, but the bad pales in comparison to those days.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Indiana—Northern

Andrew Christian wrote:


This is a fallacy. I have two characters at 18+, one at 16, two at 14, one at 12, and a bunch at 10+. All told I have 24 active characters and not a one has the Jingasa. They do quite fine without it. It isn't required to survive or even enjoy high level play.

I b know many think it's a must. But it isn't necessary.

So while I agree the nerf went too far, I'm not ready to condemn the game system because of its popularity either.

I didn't even know what the jingasa was prior to this thread. I've never encountered on in the 60 or so games I have run, and I haven't pored over every page in every book to find each item, spell, feat, etc.

At first, I thought I was missing something, but seeing Andy and others post that they have high level characters that don't have this item, maybe not.

I remember a developer for DND once writing that if an option was so good that it was almost universally chosen by everyone who could, then it's probably broken or too good. From an observer's perspective, it seems like that was the case with this item.

Scarab Sages 4/5

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technarken wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Captain Tally-Ho! wrote:
Lots of people seem to be losing their cheese, so they're breaking out the whine.
You are not helping things by being antagonistic.
I'd compare it more to someone ripping one or more parts out of my nice reliable car. Now it doesn't matter that they offered to reimburse me for the cost of the parts. They still ripped them out, and now I can't buy replacements for them, or the parts that were damaged in the process, without extra expenditure.

Point of fact for the folks out there. Technarken is one of my local players.. just to give him his due, he was the only person who had the vial of effacious medicine who didn't complain about the price change for that.

And to some degree I agree..this round of 'edits' and change has been amazingly .. heavy handed. I get that the 1/day crit denial is something some DMs hate.. but why the change to AC bonus..there is an amazing scarcity to find a luck bonus to AC.

And yeah.. I get that this isn Campaign staff fault, but honestly this isn't just about cheese players whinging but folks who got it fairly and don't abuse it.

1/5

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Well, I'll join the chorus of those saying that the Jingasa has been over-nerfed. But I'll get over it, I'm quite sure.

This may have been discussed already in the thread, though I didn't spot it: when, exactly, do these changes take effect in PFS? Now, because the source book has changed? Or when they're in the Additional Resources document? To put a fine point on it: should I update my affected characters before playing them at PaizoCon, which starts a week from today?

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Jacksonville aka Kyrie Ebonblade,

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Mark Stratton wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:


This is a fallacy. I have two characters at 18+, one at 16, two at 14, one at 12, and a bunch at 10+. All told I have 24 active characters and not a one has the Jingasa. They do quite fine without it. It isn't required to survive or even enjoy high level play.

I b know many think it's a must. But it isn't necessary.

So while I agree the nerf went too far, I'm not ready to condemn the game system because of its popularity either.

I didn't even know what the jingasa was prior to this thread. I've never encountered on in the 60 or so games I have run, and I haven't pored over every page in every book to find each item, spell, feat, etc.

At first, I thought I was missing something, but seeing Andy and others post that they have high level characters that don't have this item, maybe not.

I remember a developer for DND once writing that if an option was so good that it was almost universally chosen by everyone who could, then it's probably broken or too good. From an observer's perspective, it seems like that was the case with this item.

Using that logic..we should ban adamantine weapons, swarm bane clasp, golembane scarab, cure light wound wands, wands of infernal healing, rings of protection, cloaks of resistance. They are all 'must get' items.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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Khelreddin wrote:
This may have been discussed already in the thread, though I didn't spot it: when, exactly, do these changes take effect in PFS?

Now.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

Update them.

The only folks who get out of updating immediately are those currently in ongoing adventures: multi-session modules and pbps, since you don't want to force characters to update mid-adventure. Those folks wait until they get their chronicle sheets.

Hmm

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Thomas Graham wrote:
Using that logic..we should ban adamantine weapons, swarm bane clasp, golembane scarab, cure light wound wands, wands of infernal healing, rings of protection, cloaks of resistance. They are all 'must get' items.

With the exception of the healing (which is a fundamental part of the game), nothing on that list is "must get". Out of everything listed, I have roughly half with rings of protection, and half with cloaks of resistance. I have a swarm bane clasp on my gunslinger because the idea makes me laugh. The rest I have on no one.

This is really a flawed argument on so many levels.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Kalindlara wrote:

As written, it would appear that it still sells for half the listed price, e.g. 2,500 gp. (This makes blowing that charge a bit less painful, I suppose.)

Still... probably something in need of attention. ^_^

This still remains unanswered, which through all the complaining is a super-valid question. Wouldn't want it lost in the shuffle.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Jacksonville aka Kyrie Ebonblade,

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MisterSlanky wrote:
Thomas Graham wrote:
Using that logic..we should ban adamantine weapons, swarm bane clasp, golembane scarab, cure light wound wands, wands of infernal healing, rings of protection, cloaks of resistance. They are all 'must get' items.

With the exception of the healing (which is a fundamental part of the game), nothing on that list is "must get". Out of everything listed, I have roughly half with rings of protection, and half with cloaks of resistance. I have a swarm bane clasp on my gunslinger because the idea makes me laugh. The rest I have on no one.

This is really a flawed argument on so many levels.

then why do you see it in build guides, forum posts and more experienced players saying it again and again and again?

I'm literally the only high level fighter in my lodge does not have Swarmbane or Golem bane.

Not everyone who buys the now crushed items listed at the beginning of this thread were abusers. This is the same sort of thing my gunslinger again and again had to face because I am playing a gunslinger.

I disagree with the level of editorial hammering these items took. But.. the point is moot, so I'll be scraping up 250 gp that I'm short on one character I have the Jingasa on and 1200 on another. (That's 2 out of 28 characters)

I'm done since this is basically a fait accompli. The only reason I spoke up is this.. I have had other players in my area talk in this post..comment on these ..well heavy handed changes (in my option and theirs) and basically seen some of the more.. banhammer posters tell them they are whining.

Agree to disagree folks.. this is but a game and your way is not the only way.

Please respect one another, regardless of what side of the argument you're on..and good day.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

Thomas Graham wrote:

Agree to disagree folks.. this is but a game and your way is not the only way.

Please respect one another, regardless of what side of the argument you're on..and good day.

Well said!

Hmm


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I started to get unhappy about all this
then remembered that it has been ages since I have played PFS and I can do whatever I want in my home games

3/5 Venture-Agent, Canada—Alberta—Grand Prairie aka DM Livgin

Just bought the Jingasa on a martial druid just for the luck bonus to AC/CMD (no fates favored, will never negate a crit while wildshaped). Sad to see the luck bonus option disappear.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Indiana—Northern

Thomas Graham wrote:


Using that logic..we should ban adamantine weapons, swarm bane clasp, golembane scarab, cure light wound wands, wands of infernal healing, rings of protection, cloaks of resistance. They are all 'must get' items.

Your hyperbole non-withstanding: some of those items are absolutely necessary. If you want to kill a golem, you'd better have an adamantine weapon. Healing is a part of the game, and if you can't heal yourself, providing a wand for others to use on your behalf is a good way to do it.

Those items aren't "too good."

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Indiana—Northern

Thomas Graham wrote:
Not everyone who buys the now crushed items listed at the beginning of this thread were abusers.

For the record, I never said any such thing.


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Mark Stratton wrote:
Thomas Graham wrote:


Using that logic..we should ban adamantine weapons, swarm bane clasp, golembane scarab, cure light wound wands, wands of infernal healing, rings of protection, cloaks of resistance. They are all 'must get' items.

Your hyperbole non-withstanding: some of those items are absolutely necessary. If you want to kill a golem, you'd better have an adamantine weapon. Healing is a part of the game, and if you can't heal yourself, providing a wand for others to use on your behalf is a good way to do it.

Those items aren't "too good."

They are under the definition of "almost universally chosen by everyone who could", at least the cloak definitely is.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Thomas Graham wrote:
MisterSlanky wrote:
Thomas Graham wrote:
Using that logic..we should ban adamantine weapons, swarm bane clasp, golembane scarab, cure light wound wands, wands of infernal healing, rings of protection, cloaks of resistance. They are all 'must get' items.

With the exception of the healing (which is a fundamental part of the game), nothing on that list is "must get". Out of everything listed, I have roughly half with rings of protection, and half with cloaks of resistance. I have a swarm bane clasp on my gunslinger because the idea makes me laugh. The rest I have on no one.

This is really a flawed argument on so many levels.

then why do you see it in build guides, forum posts and more experienced players saying it again and again and again?

Because their wrong and its kind of a gross generalization.

Mark Stratton wrote:
Thomas Graham wrote:


Using that logic..we should ban adamantine weapons, swarm bane clasp, golembane scarab, cure light wound wands, wands of infernal healing, rings of protection, cloaks of resistance. They are all 'must get' items.

Your hyperbole non-withstanding: some of those items are absolutely necessary. If you want to kill a golem, you'd better have an adamantine weapon. Healing is a part of the game, and if you can't heal yourself, providing a wand for others to use on your behalf is a good way to do it.

Those items aren't "too good."

What level are we talking about because you definitely don't need an adamantine weapon.

Shadow Lodge

I've leveled up over 200 levels of PCs and have avoided the temptation of a jingasa, so will also agree it wasn't mandatory (some of this being Core, so clearly not mandatory).

The change to the jingasa does have me wondering what change may be in store for Fate's Favored when the eventual Ultimate Campaign 2nd printing comes around (which I'd guess is soon-ish?).

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

DM Livgin wrote:
Just bought the Jingasa on a martial druid just for the luck bonus to AC/CMD (no fates favored, will never negate a crit while wildshaped). Sad to see the luck bonus option disappear.

Isn't legal for a druid. It is a metal helmet, and they are forbidden to wear metal armor. (Okay, it is an arguable point, whether that means just full armor suits, but it always seemed to me to be questionable enough that I have never bought one for a druid.)

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

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Mark Stratton wrote:
I remember a developer for DND once writing that if an option was so good that it was almost universally chosen by everyone who could, then it's probably broken or too good. From an observer's perspective, it seems like that was the case with this item.
Robert Thomson wrote:

I'm in the minority, but I'm applauding the changes, just like the last few book revisions. I may not agree on every single change, and I know that change is hard in general, but on the whole, I think the changes make for a better game. There were a lot of outlier items, that were compulsory. I hate that. I hear people talking about having the same item on 5 or 6 characters, while at the same time claiming it's not too strong.

I'm not sure how the metagame is in other areas, but in my area, not only were many of these items considered "must have" on characters, but players were buying multiples of the charge or per day items because they were so cheap for what they did.

Walter Sheppard wrote:
I dislike staples. I dislike the idea of a system that offers infinite choice, but really only offers limited choice, or no choice at all. Which was the case with those items. For those of us that didn't purchase a pointy hat or broken spellcaster staff, we did so out of a point of pride in that we didn't need such "required items" in...

I laugh when I see these posts about this. "Oh the jingasa was too good for head, crowded out all other options" "If everyone is getting it then it should be removed"

Yet they have no problem with Magic Belts, magic headbands, magic weapons, magic armor, rinds of deflections, cloak of resist and AoNA. You know, the stuff that probably 80% of people take on all their characters. Yup, need to remove the jingasa cause it was a staple, but these other things, well their needed, can't remove those from the game.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

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Thomas Graham wrote:
MisterSlanky wrote:
Thomas Graham wrote:
Using that logic..we should ban adamantine weapons, swarm bane clasp, golembane scarab, cure light wound wands, wands of infernal healing, rings of protection, cloaks of resistance. They are all 'must get' items.

With the exception of the healing (which is a fundamental part of the game), nothing on that list is "must get". Out of everything listed, I have roughly half with rings of protection, and half with cloaks of resistance. I have a swarm bane clasp on my gunslinger because the idea makes me laugh. The rest I have on no one.

This is really a flawed argument on so many levels.

then why do you see it in build guides, forum posts and more experienced players saying it again and again and again?

Because the poeple who write the guides and the people who dispense advice on the forums exist in something of a theory crafting echo chamber. That is not always a bad thing. When a novice comes to the forum to get advice, I would rather have him get one decent piece of advice on a topic than 40 excelent, but conflicting pieces of advice that leave him more confused than before.

But my experience is that unless your saves are moderate, cloak makes little difference. If your AC is low enough, you are better off buying items that keep you out of combat than AC boosters, etc.

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