Ultimate Equipment (Second Printing)


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The Exchange

If they wanted to make the transition painless then they would give more thought to the changes being made. Not just slapping some ACG style paint over it and calling it a half finished poorly tested day.

Frankly, what they want to be dealing with while packing for Paizocon isn't my concern. The idea that the whole office shuts down for cons has always seemed fairly odd to me.

I appreciate that I should have a point and I do.

While producing more and more books that have dramatic power increases it makes no sense to depower earlier books and items. It further makes no sense to take away what is actually a fairly fundamental part of plenty of characters in this manner. My brawler is basically ineffective now because I can't sell enough to buy the enhancement without ruining the character but I also can't buy an amulet of mighty fists because my neck slot is already filled. So I have a useless character floating around. So my options are;
1. Ignore the errata.
2. Rebuild fully.
3. Don't play one of my favourite characters anymore.

Only 1 of those is a legal option and frankly its not fair. As you said, the brawler no longer as a reason to brawl.

As for the other thread there. Have we actually gotten a response yet?

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ***

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rushley son of Halum wrote:
I'm asking here because this is a thread made by a developer. Making new threads with these questions rarely gets a response, even rarer that you'd get a response with an actual answer.

I find this an interesting perspective because the developers on these boards are incredibly active. I'm not sure if John Compton actually sleeps. I have no idea when he finds time to write all the scenarios that he puts together for PFS. My guess? He has a ring of sustenance.

As much as I personally dislike the errata / FAQ cycle, I respect how much Paizo's employees have made themselves available to all of us. And I love the way that John Compton, Tonya and Linda have listened to us, trying to make this process as painless as possible.

Hmm

EDITED to ADD:

Would you like help rebuilding your character? There are a lot of bright people in the advice forums who probably would be willing to help!

Lantern Lodge 5/5

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Aside: Does a -2 to hit and damage take your character from acceptable to unplayable?

I recommend just taking things in stride. That's what we have to do as PFS players- -while people on the rules forum like to blame PFS for rule changes, the fact of the matter is, this was a change to the hardcover book- -we've gotta find a way to adapt and keep going.

The game is supposed to be fun.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

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Paul Jackson wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


I think I'll be investing in Hats of Disguise because they are awesome.

Watches around warily for a nerfbat

The Greater Hat Of Disguise is even more awesone. And from a sufficiently obscure source that it will never get errata'd

I really find the mindset of "it's from an obscure source so I am errata immune" troublesome, and we learned from Ultimate Intrigue, that Paizo is willing to reprint.

Not that the hat seems be a problem...

The Exchange

Actually Jeff I don't.

I have a half dozen game systems running down at my local store. I'm just pissed that I wasted so much money on a bloated mess before realising.

The Exchange

Hmm wrote:
Rushley son of Halum wrote:
I'm asking here because this is a thread made by a developer. Making new threads with these questions rarely gets a response, even rarer that you'd get a response with an actual answer.

I find this an interesting perspective because the developers on these boards are incredibly active. I'm not sure if John Compton actually sleeps. I have no idea when he finds time to write all the scenarios that he puts together for PFS. My guess? He has a ring of sustenance.

As much as I personally dislike the errata / FAQ cycle, I respect how much Paizo's employees have made themselves available to all of us. And I love the way that John Compton, Tonya and Linda have listened to us, trying to make this process as painless as possible.

Hmm

EDITED to ADD:

Would you like help rebuilding your character? There are a lot of bright people in the advice forums who probably would be willing to help!

Oh so they've given a response to "Why did you do this" Awesome. Can you link me?

As for the rebuild. No i'm fine. Im going to make some kind of unarmed striking travel domain cleric I think. Starting at level 8 should make that much easier than the slow slog to higher level domain powers.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Rushley son of Halum wrote:

If they wanted to make the transition painless then they would give more thought to the changes being made. Not just slapping some ACG style paint over it and calling it a half finished poorly tested day.

Frankly, what they want to be dealing with while packing for Paizocon isn't my concern. The idea that the whole office shuts down for cons has always seemed fairly odd to me.

I appreciate that I should have a point and I do.

While producing more and more books that have dramatic power increases it makes no sense to depower earlier books and items. It further makes no sense to take away what is actually a fairly fundamental part of plenty of characters in this manner. My brawler is basically ineffective now because I can't sell enough to buy the enhancement without ruining the character but I also can't buy an amulet of mighty fists because my neck slot is already filled. So I have a useless character floating around. So my options are;
1. Ignore the errata.
2. Rebuild fully.
3. Don't play one of my favourite characters anymore.

Only 1 of those is a legal option and frankly its not fair. As you said, the brawler no longer as a reason to brawl.

As for the other thread there. Have we actually gotten a response yet?

There is another option.

You can sell your armor back at full price and use that cash to buy different armor or something else.

Ignoring the errata creates a no-win situation for the GM. Do you really want to put other people in the veryear uncomfortable position of letting you know about the errata? And if you refuse to fix the character, what then? Do you expect them to shrug and just say ok?

I know you are disappointed, but putting others in a difficult position really isn't the answer.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Am I missing something? I did not think a full rebuild was an option?

5/5 5/55/55/5

Rushley son of Halum wrote:
If they wanted to make the transition painless then they would give more thought to the changes being made. Not just slapping some ACG style paint over it and calling it a half finished poorly tested day.

Characters are an interconnected web. It can take some time to see where some of the strings go. Your amulet is a good example of that.

Quote:
Frankly, what they want to be dealing with while packing for Paizocon isn't my concern. The idea that the whole office shuts down for cons has always seemed fairly odd to me.

Let me take another whack at the explanation.

The folks here, in this thread, are the PFS people. They don't make errata, they deal with it.

Quote:


1. Ignore the errata.
2. Rebuild fully.
3. Don't play one of my favourite characters anymore.

Selling back the amulet of (natural armor?) for mighty fists certainly seems like the sort of adjustment you should be able to petition for and get.

Quote:

Only 1 of those is a legal option and frankly its not fair. As you said, the brawler no longer as a reason to brawl.

As for the other thread there. Have we actually gotten a response yet?

Yes. Vick Wertz a few posts up from where i linked in.

The Exchange

Oh yeah I can have a level 8 character with no magical attacks and terrible to hit.

Yeah thats a great idea......

Also as has been pointed out, the game is supposed to be fun. I don't find having my character nerfed by such an extent to be fun.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Jeff Hazuka wrote:

Aside: Does a -2 to hit and damage take your character from acceptable to unplayable?

-2 to hit -2 to damage is pretty big. dr 5 or 10 not getting through dr magic and not being able to hit incorporeal at all is pretty rough.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Phoenix

Fun is a subjective concept.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Rushley son of Halum wrote:

Oh yeah I can have a level 8 character with no magical attacks and terrible to hit.

Yeah thats a great idea......

Also as has been pointed out, the game is supposed to be fun. I don't find having my character nerfed by such an extent to be fun.

Don't brawlers attacks become magical before level 8 as a class feature

The Exchange

Also Big Norse Wolf the post you directed me to is just a general "PFS doesn't drive errata" comment. I'm looking for the outline of why they made these particular changes and what the problems were that needed fixing.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:
Am I missing something? I did not think a full rebuild was an option?

Full rebuild may not be. But having a chance to look over his equipment may be. There may be other options that might work for him.

The Exchange

Hmm wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Am I missing something? I did not think a full rebuild was an option?

Full rebuild may not be. But having a chance to look over his equipment may be. There may be other options that might work for him.

Again you're making the key mistake of assuming I care about the PFS design team tells me to do. I don't. Not at all anymore.

Sovereign Court 3/5 **

Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Rushley son of Halum wrote:
Hmm wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Am I missing something? I did not think a full rebuild was an option?

Full rebuild may not be. But having a chance to look over his equipment may be. There may be other options that might work for him.

Again you're making the key mistake of assuming I care about the PFS design team tells me to do. I don't. Not at all anymore.

Maybe take a day to realize this is all just a game we play together...

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Hmm wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Am I missing something? I did not think a full rebuild was an option?

Full rebuild may not be. But having a chance to look over his equipment may be. There may be other options that might work for him.

Oh, agreed. More than willing to help with that. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of what can happen.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ***

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rushley wrote:
Again you're making the key mistake of assuming I care about the PFS design team tells me to do. I don't. Not at all anymore.

Alrighty then!

Hmm smiles, waves, and leaves this conversation.

The Exchange

KingOfAnything wrote:
Rushley son of Halum wrote:
Hmm wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Am I missing something? I did not think a full rebuild was an option?

Full rebuild may not be. But having a chance to look over his equipment may be. There may be other options that might work for him.

Again you're making the key mistake of assuming I care about the PFS design team tells me to do. I don't. Not at all anymore.
Maybe take a day to realize this is all just a game we play together...

Exactly. It's just a game. The guide says that I can rebuild after dramatic changes. Following the rules given by the dev team on what I can do with this armor I'm not actually able to use an amulet of mighty fists or replace the cost of the armor. So i'm taking the "dramatic changes to a character" rebuild option.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Asking to widen the resell options when it comes to brawling armor to include neck slot items seems reasonable.

3/5 5/5

Andrew Christian wrote:
Am I missing something? I did not think a full rebuild was an option?

To my knowledge, John Compton was considering allowing a retrain of the Fate's Favored trait only, not a full rebuild.

Rushley son of Halum wrote:
Again you're making the key mistake of assuming I care about the PFS design team tells me to do. I don't. Not at all anymore.

There is no need for that tone, Andrew's doing his best to be helpful and courteous here. And there's no call for accusing the VCs of nepotism either.

You don't have to like the PFS design team, and you certainly don't need to follow the errata in your own home games, but you do need to play by the rules set by the campaign organisers to play in PFS games. Or rather, you could refuse to, but then the GM running the game would have an obligation to ask you to leave the table.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Rushley son of Halum wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Rushley son of Halum wrote:
Hmm wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Am I missing something? I did not think a full rebuild was an option?

Full rebuild may not be. But having a chance to look over his equipment may be. There may be other options that might work for him.

Again you're making the key mistake of assuming I care about the PFS design team tells me to do. I don't. Not at all anymore.
Maybe take a day to realize this is all just a game we play together...
Exactly. It's just a game. The guide says that I can rebuild after dramatic changes. Following the rules given by the dev team on what I can do with this armor I'm not actually able to use an amulet of mighty fists or replace the cost of the armor. So i'm taking the "dramatic changes to a character" rebuild option.

Unless the PFS team clearly gives that rebuild option, a rebuild is unfortunately not an option. AT least not yet, why don'T you post your character build and itemization choices and make a good faith argument, why this warrants a rebuild?

I have a character in a similar situation, but fortunately I have to money to rebuy it as a +4 armor (still more cost effective than the alternative).

Carry:
Carry
Female human alchemist (grenadier) 2/brawler 8 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 23, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 26, Pathfinder RPG Monster Codex)
LN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +8
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 27, touch 16, flat-footed 23 (+8 armor, +1 deflection, +3 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 insight, +3 shield)
hp 100 (10 HD; 2d8+8d10+38)
Fort +17, Ref +17, Will +10
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee cold iron fighting fan +12/+7 (1d8+4/×3) or
. . cold iron fighting fan flurry of blows +10/+10/+5/+5 (1d8+4/×3) or
. . dagger +12/+7 (1d4+4/19-20) or
. . longspear +12/+7 (1d8+6/×3) or
. . unarmed strike +13/+8 (1d10+7/19-20) or
. . unarmed strike flurry of blows +11/+11/+6/+6 (1d10+7/19-20)
Ranged +1 darkwood composite longbow +12/+7 (1d8+5/×3) or
. . bomb +12 (1d6+3 Fire) or
. . shuriken flurry of blows +5/+5/+0/+0 (1d2+4) or
. . shuriken +7/+2 (1d2+4)
Special Attacks bomb 5/day (1d6+3 fire, DC 14), brawler's flurry, brawler's strike (magic), close weapon mastery, knockout 1/day (DC 18), maneuver training (grapple +2, sunder +1), martial flexibility 7/day
Alchemist (Grenadier) Extracts Prepared (CL 2nd; concentration +5)
. . 1st—enlarge person (DC 14), heightened awareness[ACG], shield
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +9; CMB +15 (+17 grapple, +16 sunder); CMD 29 (31 vs. grapple, 30 vs. sunder)
Feats Additional Traits, Dodge, Improved Critical (unarmed strike), Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Martial Weapon Proficiency (longbow), Power Attack, Pummeling Style[ACG], Throw Anything, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike)
Traits clever wordplay, fate's favored, pragmatic activator, quain martial artist
Skills Acrobatics +11 (+7 to jump), Appraise +7, Climb +5, Craft (alchemy) +15 (+17 to create alchemical items), Diplomacy +11, Disable Device +4, Escape Artist +6, Heal +5, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (arcana) +8, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +7, Knowledge (engineering) +4, Knowledge (geography) +4, Knowledge (history) +4, Knowledge (local) +7, Knowledge (nature) +7, Knowledge (nobility) +4, Knowledge (planes) +4, Knowledge (religion) +4, Linguistics +4, Perception +8, Ride +4, Sense Motive +8, Sleight of Hand +4, Spellcraft +8, Stealth +1, Survival +5 (+7 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +5, Use Magic Device +18
Languages Celestial, Common, Polyglot, Thassilonian, Undercommon
SQ alchemical weapon, alchemy (alchemy crafting +2), brawler's cunning, discovery (feral mutagen), martial training, mutagen (+4/-2, +2 natural armor, 20 minutes), precise bombs
Combat Gear jingasa of the fortunate soldier[UE], mutagen (feral)[APG]; Other Gear +1 brawling mithral chain shirt, +2 mithral breastplate, +2 mithral light steel quickdraw shield[APG], +1 darkwood composite longbow (+4 Str), cold iron fighting fan[UC], dagger, longspear, shuriken (20), dusty rose prism ioun stone, belt of mighty constitution +2, cloak of resistance +3, cracked magenta prism ioun stone, cracked vibrant purple prism ioun stone, handy haversack, headband of vast intelligence +2, lucky horseshoe[OA], ring of protection +1, wayfinder[ISWG], alchemist's lab, backpack, bandolier[UE], bandolier[UE], bedroll, belt pouch, belt pouch, fishhook, flint and steel, folding shovel[UE], formula book[UE], hemp rope (50 ft.), masterwork backpack[APG], mug/tankard, powder[APG] (5), scroll case, scroll case, sewing needle, signal whistle, smoked goggles[APG], spell component pouch, string or twine[APG], thread (50 ft.), torch (10), trail rations (5), trail rations (7), waterskin, waterskin, whetstone, 27 gp
--------------------
Tracked Resources
--------------------
Bomb 1d6+3 (5/day, DC 14) (Su) - 0/5
Dagger - 0/1
Feral Mutagen: +4 STR, -2 INT, +2 Nat AC - 0/1
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) - 0/1
Knockout (1/day, DC 18) (Ex) - 0/1
Lucky horseshoe (1/day) - 0/1
Martial Flexibility (swift action, 7/day) (Ex) - 0/7
Shuriken - 0/20
Torch - 0/10
Trail rations - 0/5
Trail rations - 0/7
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Alchemical Weapon (Move Action) (Su) Add the effects of an alchemical liquid or powder to weapon.
Alchemy +2 (Su) +2 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Bomb 1d6+3 (5/day, DC 14) (Su) Thrown Splash Weapon deals 1d6+3 fire damage.
Brawler's Cunning (Ex) Count as Int 13 for the purpose of combat feat pre-requisites.
Brawler's Flurry +7/+7/+2/+2 (Ex) Can make full attack & gain two-wep fighting, but only with unarmed strike, close, or monk wep.
Brawler's Strike (Ex) Unarmed strikes overcome DR as various things.
Close Weapon Mastery (Ex) Weapons of the close group deal dam as unarmed strike at -4 levels.
Feral Mutagen (Su) Mutagens grant claw and bite attacks, and a bonus to intimidate.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Knockout (1/day, DC 18) (Ex) Declare before attack, if hit then foe is unconscious 1d6 rds (Fort neg), resave each rd.
Maneuver Training
Martial Flexibility (swift action, 7/day) (Ex) As a Swift action, gain a combat feat for 1 min. More gained for greater actions.
Martial Training (Ex) Brawler levels count as fighter/monk levels for feat/item pre-reqs and effects.
Mutagen (DC 14) (Su) Mutagen adds +4 to a physical & -2 to a mental attribute, and +2 nat. armor for 20 minutes.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Precise Bombs (Ex) Select Int mod squares to not be affected by splash effects.
Pummeling Style Total damage from all unarmed attacks before appplying DR.
Throw Anything Proficient with improvised ranged weapons. +1 to hit with thrown splash weapons.

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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FiddlersGreen wrote:


Personally, I don't see why there is such a fuss over the brawling property when the price of the amulet of mighty fists was halved. HALVED!
My unarmed-fighting bloodrager is rejoicing over this. By level 8, the price difference should mean that most unarmed characters will be coming out on top.

Erm.. that was done a long time ago

Monkeying around blog Ultimate equipment messed up and copied the old prices.

3/5 5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
FiddlersGreen wrote:


Personally, I don't see why there is such a fuss over the brawling property when the price of the amulet of mighty fists was halved. HALVED!
My unarmed-fighting bloodrager is rejoicing over this. By level 8, the price difference should mean that most unarmed characters will be coming out on top.

Erm.. that was done a long time ago

Monkeying around blog Ultimate equipment messed up and copied the old prices.

Yipe, that was me misreading the errata. I thought they reduced the price of the amulet even further. XD Edited the earlier post.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville

There has been a conversation, before this reprint, about the Monk in particular and unarmed fighting in general. The basic concerns were and are that the unarmed fighting character has less options at his disposal to effect the same type of power scale that is provided by Magical Weapons. The hurt feelings about the Brawler Armor going up significantly in cost is a "Nerf" that hits this concern right in the nethers.

What I think is the central issue is that the item is a central part of the character instead of an aid for that character, so when the extreme change in price makes that item be out of reach (likely for all but the highest level of characters in regular PFS play), the player likely does not have a way to replace the item in any meaningful way.

I ask, specifically, why jump to +3, why not have it go to just +2?

5/5 5/55/55/5

Rushley son of Halum wrote:


Exactly. It's just a game. The guide says that I can rebuild after dramatic changes. Following the rules given by the dev team on what I can do with this armor I'm not actually able to use an amulet of mighty fists or replace the cost of the armor. So i'm taking the "dramatic changes to a character" rebuild option.

Its not really an option that turns on on its own.

What would you need to do to do to get your character working?

-Sell back the brawling (happens automatically)
-sell back your amulet of (natural armor?)
-Swap out fist related feats (weapon focus)
Anything else?

Even without hitting anything, improved unarmed strike is good on a brawler because its the basis for a lot of feats you can pick up

Paizo Employee 4/5 Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

8 people marked this as a favorite.

Hello, Rushley. It's clear you're upset about the recent errata and how they affect one of your characters. You're bringing up a point I hadn't considered when writing up the rebuilding considerations at the start of this thread: someone with the brawling armor enchantment might have chosen to forgo an amulet of mighty fists knowing that he could use the armor enchantment to overcome DR/magic. What's more, the same character might have purchased a different neck slot item. That's certainly something worth considering, and it might be something for me to add to the rebuild considerations.

The question is whether that helps bring your character—and no doubt other characters facing a similar conundrum—in line without introducing new issues.

The Exchange

Selling back my current amulet of natural armor for half price seems frankly pointlessly punitive.

I can't sell back enough to get the brawling enchantment without making the character even less effective.

Already have weapon focus unarmed strike but theres not much point to having it now so I'll probably need to retrain that as well.

Fixing the character is going to take significantly more trouble than its worth.

I'm just pissed, the change makes no sense. I've asked so many times about the justification for it and no one seems able to offer one.

Community & Digital Content Director

4 people marked this as a favorite.

Removed another personally abusive post. Again, you don't have to like the changes in the errata, but you do need to treat others in our community civilly.

The Exchange

I'd still like some kind of answer as to why the change was even made.

And John, you saying "This raises a point I hadn't considered" doesn't really address the issue unless you give people an option to actually resolve it.

The amulet of mighty fists only goes part way to solving the issue. Theres still been a dramatic change made for seemingly no reason. We as players are now left trying to work out how to get our characters to keep working effectively. Unarmed strike characters are already tricky enough to make work. I don't understand how removing an option and forcing all unarmed characters to take an amulet of mighty fists really helps anyone. Aren't more options good?

What is the logic here?

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Rushley son of Halum wrote:

Selling back my current amulet of natural armor for half price seems frankly pointlessly punitive.

I can't sell back enough to get the brawling enchantment without making the character even less effective.

Already have weapon focus unarmed strike but theres not much point to having it now so I'll probably need to retrain that as well.

Fixing the character is going to take significantly more trouble than its worth.

I'm just pissed, the change makes no sense. I've asked so many times about the justification for it and no one seems able to offer one.

That is because John and other parts of the PFS team did not make that decision, maybe ask in the product thread or in the other thread in the general forum, why the design team made that decision ?

5/5 5/55/55/5

Rushley son of Halum wrote:
Selling back my current amulet of natural armor for half price seems frankly pointlessly punitive.

You can always sell it for half. He's considering full. he's been considering it for less time than I've had this lemon pie. Give him a little while.

Quote:
I can't sell back enough to get the brawling enchantment without making the character even less effective.

Thats almost a given at level 8. 16 k is a pretty big chunk of cash.

Quote:
Already have weapon focus unarmed strike but theres not much point to having it now so I'll probably need to retrain that as well.

Ask to change it for free.

Quote:
I'm just pissed, the change makes no sense. I've asked so many times about the justification for it and no one seems able to offer one.

No one here can speak to that. You need a different part of the purple golem.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Rushley, nobody in PFS, including the PFS leadership team, know that answer. They develop PFS, not the Pathfinder game system.

You might have better luck getting an answer on either the product specific message board or the errata specific thread in the non-PFS area of these boards.

I get why you are angry. I'd be upset in your shoes too. My guess on the change, whether you agree with it or not, that the Pathfinder design team, which generally does not peruse the PFS forums, felt it was overpowered for its price.

Let's see what John comes up with for you. I think the initial intention was that he was considering a full refund for the amulet as well.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

As a fan of the brawling enhancement, and a person who has to rethink some ideas due to the change, I really, and I mean really don't understand the "I have to quit now" mentality regarding this specific armor. This is twice now this rhetoric has been thrown around.

The brawling enhancement was outright broken at the price point it was set at. Assuming that we cap out pretty nicely on gold, the brawling enhancement would, as previously written, only really cost you at most about 7,000 gp (the cost of going from +3 to +4), but realistically cost you 3,000 gp because it was probably bought as the first enhancement (going from +1 to +2).

Let's put that into perspective. A necklace of might fists, which is entirely stackable with that armor, can provide for extra effects in addition to the bonus to hit and damage from the armor, and for which the system was built, costs 8,000 gp at the first +2 bonus. So the two items combined in essence can give you a +4 bonus for the cost of 15,000 gp. Compare that to the price of the +4 amulet of mighty fists (34,000 gp) and you start to see the problem.

The reason the price was changed is because the effect was outrageously good for the price. It was brought in line of the two stacking. Does this suck? Again, as somebody with a character with this in the design, I had to tweak ideas a bit, but it's certainly not unfair, and the development team certainly doesn't owe you, or any of us, an explanation for what is very much a reasonable change. I'm sorry you feel that this "ruins your character to the point of unplayability" but hyperbole isn't getting this discussion anywhere.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

5 people marked this as a favorite.

First off, I appreciate the change of tone. I don't begrudge your frustration or anger over the recent errata. As Chris Lambertz notes above, the issue arises when you project that anger and frustration against the community that has courteously tried to help discuss your concerns. Please don't pursue that path; it's not the kind of community we wish to create, and it's not the kind of environment where I feel comfortable answering players' questions.

Rushley son of Halum wrote:

I'd still like some kind of answer as to why the change was even made.

And John, you saying "This raises a point I hadn't considered" doesn't really address the issue unless you give people an option to actually resolve it.

I agree that discussing an issue doesn't solve it. However, discussing the issue does help me evaluate and consider policies to ensure that any changes I make actually address the problem in a meaningful way that doesn't introduce new problems. This is the same process that I went through when listening to feedback and deciding to adjust the brawling armor resale considerations.

Quote:

The amulet of mighty fists only goes part way to solving the issue. Theres still been a dramatic change made for seemingly no reason. We as players are now left trying to work out how to get our characters to keep working effectively. Unarmed strike characters are already tricky enough to make work. I don't understand how removing an option and forcing all unarmed characters to take an amulet of mighty fists really helps anyone. Aren't more options good?

What is the logic here?

Looking at the original brawling enchantment, it looks like a +1 armor enchantment (let's call it 3,000 gp, which is the cost to upgrade to from +1 armor to an effective +2 armor) granted the equivalent benefits of a +2 weapon enhancement (somewhere in the 8,000–16,000 gp range, depending on if you assume it's a new weapon or a +2 enchantment places on a +1 weapon). That's quite an advantage, especially considering the cost of an amulet of mighty fists increases at twice the rate of a manufactured weapon! Now whether or not unarmed combat needs or deserves a really low-cost boost or not...that's a different issue that's not my department—at least not in an official sense.

Grand Lodge 5/5

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Rushley son of Halum wrote:
I'm asking here because this is a thread made by a developer. Making new threads with these questions rarely gets a response, even rarer that you'd get a response with an actual answer.

Ok, let me take a shot at a couple of things. Yes, this thread is made by the Lead PFS Developer however errata/FAQ are made by the Paizo Design Team while it is quite possible that John/Linda/Tonya would be consulted, it is unlikely they have final say or full information to motivations (Jason Buhlman or Mark Seifter would be far more likely to have this info). John went on to answer part of the concern as it pertained to his domain, what you can do to salvage your PFS character. Next, it is unlikely that you'll get the answer to your question, as one they traditionally keep these answers to themselves, I would imagine for some valid concerns though I don't know and two because they are busy trying to do other things.

Hillis Mallory III wrote:

There has been a conversation, before this reprint, about the Monk in particular and unarmed fighting in general. The basic concerns were and are that the unarmed fighting character has less options at his disposal to effect the same type of power scale that is provided by Magical Weapons. The hurt feelings about the Brawler Armor going up significantly in cost is a "Nerf" that hits this concern right in the nethers.

What I think is the central issue is that the item is a central part of the character instead of an aid for that character, so when the extreme change in price makes that item be out of reach (likely for all but the highest level of characters in regular PFS play), the player likely does not have a way to replace the item in any meaningful way.

I ask, specifically, why jump to +3, why not have it go to just +2?

I can't say for sure but the total cost of +1 brawling armor is just over 150+armor cost more than a +2 Amulet of Might Fists which it is better than in some ways. Oh and it's an untyped bonus so it stacks with an Amulet of Mighty Fists, too. (so for the price of an Amulet of Might Fists +2, you get almost of all the benefits + AC + you can stack them). (It quite honestly could still be considered cheap for what it does, if you didn't take into consideration the former cost)

Edit: And of course John Ninjas me by 7 seconds.


It's nice to see the reasoning behind a change for once. Thanks, Mr. Compton.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

John Compton wrote:
Looking at the original brawling enchantment, it looks like a +1 armor enchantment (let's call it 3,000 gp, which is the cost to upgrade to from +1 armor to an effective +2 armor) granted the equivalent benefits of a +2 weapon enhancement (somewhere in...

Don't forget John that the brawling enhancement is typically treated like all unarmed bonuses and likely was changed to function in cost as two weapons of enhancement (exactly as they did with the amulet) due to the fact that it's usually combined with some kind of flurry. My math was less conservative than yours because I felt that when doing the comparison, you should be looking at two, not one weapon.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Rushley son of Halum wrote:
The idea that the whole office shuts down for cons has always seemed fairly odd to me.

Literally every single Paizo employee will be at the convention for 4 days. (Most even spend the nights in the hotel.)

The Exchange

Kinda my point Vic....

But thank you John and Slanky for actually trying to logic out the reason behind it. I still don't think that making it +3 was the best call. I think stopping it stacking with mighty fists might have been the better option.

But John if you could consider other additional options in terms of equipment rebuilding for this instance that would certainly help. Theres gaps that the current rules around this change don't address.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5

CBDunkerson wrote:
Shifty wrote:
Hence why I don't bother having copies of the books to hand, and just keep Archives of Nethys at the ready. Things change so frequently and I can always double check online and know they are up to date.

Nethys is about three months out of date.

The only way to always be 'up to date' is to use the latest PDFs.

You know what is fun? Playing Pathfinder and having a good game and a social event.

You know what isn't fun? Trying to chase around errata and PDF's and having to get involved in Paperfinder.

Rather than have to jerk around with .pdf's etc I'd prefer Paizo had an up-to-date website where I could be sure I had the most up to date rules in a readily searchable format. d20pfsrd I find the easiest to work with (despite its obvious issues), and Archives of Nethys generally pretty good (with reference to it being in catch up mode a lot).

Maybe a 'pay to play' site?

3/5 *** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

MisterSlanky wrote:

As a fan of the brawling enhancement, and a person who has to rethink some ideas due to the change, I really, and I mean really don't understand the "I have to quit now" mentality regarding this specific armor. This is twice now this rhetoric has been thrown around.

Yeah honestly if you think you need the Brawling enhancement for the Brawler you aren't exploiting the full potential of the class which while I like the premise of it is involved.

Shifty wrote:
d20pfsrd I find the easiest to work with (despite its obvious issues),

You find d20pfsrd actually easier to use than a pdf? The information is really bizarrely disorganized nowadays. I don't remember it being that originally but I can barely find new content on it nowadays. Also, what you are suggesting is a great idea. I would definitely pay for a 4E compendium like database.

3/5 5/5

Those sites are good for browsing and searching (especially searching), but it's always best to go back to the pdf and additional resources page before purchasing. It's more like browsing an online catalogue than doing online shopping - it can give you a fairly reliable idea of what's available, but in the end you still need to go down to the store and check for stock, specs and price. =)

Paizo Employee 4/5 Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

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FiddlersGreen wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Am I missing something? I did not think a full rebuild was an option?
To my knowledge, John Compton was considering allowing a retrain of the Fate's Favored trait only, not a full rebuild.

Didn't I already...

*Looks at rebuild notes, which say there should be Fortune's Favor retraining*
...say that I would...
*Looks at revised original post, which is noticeably lacking any mention of the trait*
...allow this...to...oh. Well that's embarrassing.

Yes, I anticipate doing another revision to the original post to include retraining that trait as well as any development the comes from the recent amulet of mighty fists concern.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Rushley son of Halum wrote:
Selling back my current amulet of natural armor for half price seems frankly pointlessly punitive.
You can always sell it for half. He's considering full. he's been considering it for less time than I've had this lemon pie. Give him a little while.

Mmmm. Lemon pie!

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/55/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East

Hmm. More of a vanity question than something specific to this errata set. If you bought an affected item using the Master of Trade vanity (10% off one item per game), my understanding is you are rebated the discounted cost. That's fine. But about the 1/game thing. For replacing a purchased item, can we get another use of discount?

For instance, I have a character who bought a Jingasa using the discount. But for my next chronicle with her, I've already planned out something to use the discount on. Could I get a second discount on that chronicle to buy a replacement? (In this case, the character is actually already retired, so I don't care much either way, but it's nice to know for the future.)

Paizo Employee 4/5 Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

James Anderson wrote:

Hmm. More of a vanity question than something specific to this errata set. If you bought an affected item using the Master of Trade vanity (10% off one item per game), my understanding is you are rebated the discounted cost. That's fine. But about the 1/game thing. For replacing a purchased item, can we get another use of discount?

For instance, I have a character who bought a Jingasa using the discount. But for my next chronicle with her, I've already planned out something to use the discount on. Could I get a second discount on that chronicle to buy a replacement? (In this case, the character is actually already retired, so I don't care much either way, but it's nice to know for the future.)

Although I am nodding along to the concept, the execution is troubling. Character wealth and the cost of magic items scales up with level, so the discount one might receive at 7th level for a typical item is quite different than what you'd receive at 11th. Suddenly gaining an extra discount to apply later in a character's career might upset the character's wealth. The ways I am seeing to work around that are pretty clunky. Perhaps it would be a single use of the vanity that one must choose to use immediately or forfeit, thus applying primarily to a replacement expenditure.

At the very least, yes, you should sell the item back at the price you paid for it.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5

MadScientistWorking wrote:


You find d20pfsrd actually easier to use than a pdf? The information is really bizarrely disorganized nowadays. I don't remember it being that originally but I can barely find new content on it nowadays. Also, what you are suggesting is a great idea. I would definitely pay for a 4E compendium like database.

Yeah it's a bit funky to manually click around but the search function is awesome, and the ability to link a URL to a ruling is very hand for forums an play by posts. Also, with the sheer volume of books out there it can be too easy to forget what book some obscure item was in - far easier to search a website than open a pile of PDFs.

The pathfinder prd is ok, but I haven't found it as friendly.

The other thing about a website is you can have a revisions page/update news rather than having to download and read PDFs. A change log seems more user friendly.

Anyhow we are probably drifting, but the errata does make me wonder if there is a better way to promulgate info.

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