Mystic Madness's page

Organized Play Member. 113 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 12 Organized Play characters. 1 alias.


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The Exchange 1/5

Jared Thaler wrote:
James Anderson wrote:
Librain wrote:
I challenge people to find 3 armour enchantments that are superior to the equivalent +x in over 10% of cases
Spell Storing finds its way onto many of my characters, especially casters with Haramaki's. Typically with a Force Punch or a Frigid Touch on it.
There is a local life oracle with bestow curse. He will walk through big bad fights intentionally provoking AoO, on the grounds that he would rather heal himself once, than heal all the hits that are going to miss because of that -4 to hit...

I'm guilty of that myself, though I used the Jingasa to make sure a ridiculous critical didn't down me in one hit . . .

The Exchange 1/5

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Sin of Asmodeus wrote:

Why get full rebuilds? I have a staff of the master on almost everyone of my casters, and I'm a-ok with the nerf, and won't be retraining my Metamagic feats. It's a 30 staff. You're most likely 8 or 9 before being able to afford it, so the fact that the feats you took previous to purchase can be retrained is silly.

Nerfs happen, rocks fall, blah blah.

What is offered is hardly a full rebuild. Some casters, such as my only Seeker level character (who has been waiting more than a year to do eyes of the ten and only bought the staff after his last 11th level adventure), have metamagic feats solely to use them through the staff. In my instance, I actually retained one of my feats to get an extra metamagic feat to use with the staff. If anything, I think I should get these retraining costs back in addition to a free retraining.

The Exchange 1/5

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I have long felt that that errata changes should be reserved for game-breaking problems, not minor tweaks. Apparently, based upon most of these changes, Paizo disagrees with me. Notably, I personally have about five or six characters affected by these changes (jingasa and gloves of reconnaissance), and for no really good reason I am going to have to slog through each of the character sheets to make these nonsense changes. I truly have better things to do with my time.

Some of these changes have also broken some of my builds. For example, I have an arcane bloodlined bloodrager with the steelblooded archetype and fate's favored feat that will lose +2 AC in a build that was on the margin of it being worth it to optimize AC. If these changes had been known to me when I created the character, I would have either gone the destined bloodline (which gives a luck bonus to AC) or not tried to optimize AC at all by skipping steelblooded for much more mobility and other useful traditional Barbarian abilities. Yet is there any talk of allowing switches in bloodlines or changes of archetypes? No.

The simple fact of the matter is that Paizo needs to either grandfather this stuff in or allow broad rebuilding of affected characters. As I have brought up in prior threads, it is up to the player to know when a character has been broken (i.e., the goals of creating the character cannot be attained) by changes. While I can understand that Paizo has some legitimate concerns about continuity of the game, it is the ceaseless errata that is destroying the continuity of the game, not the prospect of rebuilds.

The Exchange

TriOmegaZero lists some great domains, I have a few more.

The heroism subdomain is one of my personal favorites. Not only does it give you heroism and greater heroism as domain spells, at 8th level it allows you to use a swift action to affect all allies within 30' as if the heroism spell had been cast upon them. The 1st level power is also very useful to improve social interactions.

The archon subdomain at 8th level has a great -2 debuff for most enemy combat statistics (including AC) to all enemies within 30', no saving throw. This can combine with the heroism domain 8th level power to give all friends within 30' an effective +4 to hit all enemies within 30' in just a single round's worth of actions. The 1st level "good touch" can also be a useful action to help support an ally.

Madness is worth mentioning because it has a very powerful 1st level touch ability that can be used as a buff or debuff. Also, the 8th level ability can be battle-changing.

Honorable mentions include the restoration subdomain for its status removing power as well as empowered healing at 6th, rage subdomain for its allowance of use of rage (useful for very specialized melee cleric builds), and the tactics subdomain for useful domain spells and it's team-oriented initiative changing power.

The Exchange

The key to clerics is to not try to do too much with one character. You can do two of the three main cleric "activities" well, which are 1)melee combat, 2) spellcasting, 3) channel-healing. Trying to be good at all three spreads the character out too much, IMO.

As far as focusing your build, channeling is a great power, but it requires significant investment to optimize it for in-combat use. You are going to need a charisma of 14 and preferably 16 and the selective channeling feat to be able to avoid healing enough enemies. While channeling can save resources out of combat, CLW wands are too cheap to make this a worthwhile consideration. As such, if you do not intend to specialize in channeling, go with a 7 CHA.

As far as good cleric builds, some ideas might be obtained from a thread I started a few months back:


One of the tips that I found helpful was the availability of the conductive weapon property for clerics with a bad touch ability. Also keep in mind that domain selection (and hence deity selection) are exceptionally important. Domains literally range from utterly worthless to utterly awesome.

The Exchange

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What my post was about is the ugly side of political correctness, where it is apparently alright to specifically criticize a racial and gender group, as long as it is the correct group. While I recognize that gaming is a largely Caucasian-dominated hobby, does that mean that those of other races who choose to participate are never guilty of boorish behavior? I doubt it. Moreover, I have certainly seen boorish behavior by females from time to time.

If you have a problem with specific types of behavior, then specify that behavior and be done with it.

The Exchange

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Frankly, I am disappointed that, in asking such a simple question about convention policies, the OP decided to refer to an article with such an "inclusive" title as "Tabletop Gaming has a White Male Terrorism Problem." I even more disappointed that SKR, a former employee of Paizo if I am not mistaken, apparently affiliated himself with such an offensively-titled article. If someone behaves in a boorish fashion during a tabletop game or during a convention, what does it matter what their gender or skin color is?

As a side note, if just about any other group were substituted for "white males" in that article, the hue and cry would have been deafening. If you want to preach tolerance, then practice what you preach.

The Exchange

Is a Tetori monk allowed? Grapple seems to be the solution here.

The Exchange

I'm amazed no one has focused more heavily on the Bloodline feats that only the Bloodrager has. In many instances, these are feats that would be taken anyway (particularly with Arcane), thus giving the bloodrager a two-feat advantage by level 9. This is huge.

It is also worth noting that the Arcane-bloddlined Bloodrager has what the Barbarian does not, a decent defense. Resist energy on starting a rage is golden, and displacement is the king of non-AC defenses. Need Haste? You can do it yourself without missing a beat.

The Exchange

Only if the second spell is quickened. The touch is only free in the round the spell is cast. Otherwise, it is a standard action.

The Exchange

It is key to understand what is meant by a "support" cleric. From that build, it is not clear what the player wants to do. There are much better subdomains for support, most notably the heroism and archon subdomains. Also, the evangelist archetype can be great for support (giving the equivalent of bardic performance), but it has a lot of trade offs. Luck is certainly a great domain, but it consumes too much of one's actions to use.

I would recommend looking at my "Battle Cleric" thread of just a few weeks ago, wherein a number of support builds were also proposed.

The Exchange

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azighal wrote:
when i look at the creatures that can be summoned they would be barely able to hit a target in my campaign(rise of the rune lords)

What levels are we talking about here? Monster summoning peaks in power level vs. enemy power IMO at Summon Monster 6, which is ordinarily obtained at 11th or 12th level. What monsters are routinely evading the +20 to hit (+22 when charging) of an augmented dire tiger? I should add that it has five attacks when charging and a +14 to damage on each attack for smiting. on top of that, it has a ridiculous grapple. Keep in mind that is just one option in this Swiss army knife of spells.

On the other hand, Monster Summoning 1-3 are quite weak (with the possible exception of a trampling Aurochs and the definite exception of the powerful small earth elemental).

Summon monster 4 is middling with the Hound Archon being a decent choice and many summons getting at least some DR. Summon Monster 5 has great utility (Bralani for healing, Babau for dispelling) as well as some muscle (Ankylosaurus and Large Elementals).

Also, keep in Mind that Augment Summoning and Acadamae Graduate make a big difference. If you are inclined to summon multiples (which I usually am not), Superior Summoning is also powerful. Expanded monster summoning and the various ACG rings that allow summoning of new monsters also add to the power in the "sweet spot" levels (but do little for 1-3).

The Exchange 1/5

Keep in mind that having no meaningful direct ability to participate in combat means that you will likely be ineffective in parties with other support characters. I have been in parties with three support characters (including two bards) and battle was painfully slow, to say the least. This situation can turn deadly when there is nobody to do the fighting.

The Exchange

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Deadmanwalking wrote:

Mystic Madness, the author of the game is, in fact, a racist. There is a huge amount of objective evidence of this, including quotes from him personally both before and after his stint in jail. He's also an arsonist and a convicted murderer.

Saying that there's no intended racist message in the game when you're only allowed to play Nordic people and the main enemies are dark skinned, and it's written by a self acknowledged white supremacist is really strange, and frankly rather absurd. And comes off looking like you're highly racist and just trying to justify it or claim that you aren't.

Now, are you actively racist? I have no idea. It seems unlikely, actually. But please take a moment to think about who you're defending here and what that makes you come across as.

I mean, really, there are situations where it can be argued that political correctness or 'social justice warriors' or whatever go too far. I'm not at all sure I'd draw the line at the same place as you, but I freely admit and agree that it's happened. Y'know what doesn't fall into that category even a little by any reasonable person's definition? Actively racist fiction by actual racists.

And that's exactly what you're defending here.

Maybe the author has turned over a new leaf, I don't know. Did you look at the aforementioned video? It appears to be featured on the author's own website. You accuse me of defending him, but I know nothing about him. However, it seems to me that if the intended audience of the game is the die-hard racist, the author would never permit a statement that it does not matter if your character is black, white or some other race to appear on his website, as such a statement would deeply offend racist followers of the game. At the very least, the narrator of the video, who obviously plays the game, does not appear to be a racist, thus contradicting the theory that only a racist would play the game.

As far as suggesting that I am a racist, that is a common tactic to supress disagreement. Presumably, if I were such a racist, I would have likely heard of this game or its author. Prior to this thread, I had not. I will say that, as an American, I support free speech, even if the content is repulsive and not in accordance with my own views.

The Exchange

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Sissyl wrote:
I hadn't heard of Myfarog before this.

My point exactly.

The Exchange

Spellguard Bracers might help with concentration checks. Only 5,000 gp.

Also, get the Cord of Stubborn Resolve for 15,000 gp. It will eliminate the fatigue and exhaustion problems inherent with Acadamae Graduate.

The ring of sustenance can help if you need to rest during a mission. Only 2,500 gp.

I would use a rod for extend and retrain the extend spell feat to expanded monster summoning for a massive power increase. If you don't want to buy the book, then consider one or more of the rings of summoning affinity found in the ACG.

The Exchange

PRD wrote:
You can also use a targeted dispel to specifically end one spell affecting the target or one spell affecting an area (such as a wall of fire). You must name the specific spell effect to be targeted in this way. If your caster level check is equal to or higher than the DC of that spell, it ends. No other spells or effects on the target are dispelled if your check is not high enough to end the targeted effect.

Arguably, according to RAW, you must name a specific spell. If you observe the caster casting it, a successful spellcraft check will suffice.

As far as communal and mass versions of spells, I believe, for example, that specifying a dispel of Fly when the actual spell cast was Mass Fly would still work because it essentially casts the underlying spell on multiple targets, as shown below.

PRD wrote:
This spell functions as Fly (Core Rulebook Chapter 10), save that it can target numerous creatures and lasts longer.

However, if a target were airborne due to Wind Walk and an attempt to dispel Fly were made, it should be unsuccessful.

The Exchange

Letric wrote:
Mystic Madness wrote:
Its strength is 16 and its damage bonus is +4, which equals 1 and 1/2, rounded down.
Oh, so it doesn't include damage from Earth Mastery?

No. That is a situational bonus.

The Exchange

Its strength is 16 and its damage bonus is +4, which equals 1 and 1/2, rounded down. Don't forget it has power attack, which for a -1 to hit gives +3 damage. It also gets +1 to hit and damage for targets on the ground and a -4 to hit and damage for airborne or waterborne targets.

The Exchange

BadBird wrote:

One other, similar option would be a split DEX/WIS Sarenrae Crusader Cleric 10/ Unchained Monk 1 using Dervish Dance and Crusader's Flurry. 17+ DEX and WIS plus free dodge is great AC, and Weapon Focus/ Power Attack/ Heroism/ Unchained Flurry is really potent with a scimitar. High wisdom also means that Aura of Doom and Instrument of Agony are really great for melee - Aura of Doom is pretty similar to activating Aura of Menace, only it's a 10min/level spell that will stack with other forms of the shaken condition.

Or, Shizuru opens up the ability to take the Gentle Rest Domain Power, which is crazy good with Domain Strike or a Conductive weapon.

I was unaware of Domain Strike, or, more importantly, the Conductive weapon property. Those are very interesting. Holding an enemy to one attack a round is one of the most powerful debuffs imaginable. Using attacks to do it is pure gravy.

The Exchange

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Corvino wrote:
Mystic Madness wrote:
That being said, such a build is really beyond the scope of what I am trying to do here, which Is create a character that can buff sort of like a bard, serve well as a divine caster, and personally perform reasonably well in melee when required. The summoning is designed to help kind of like a buff, maybe to create a flanker for the fighter, not necessarily as a primary combatant.
If this is your stated aim then an Evangelist Cleric with the Heroism domain, Armor Expert trait to permit a Mithral Breastplate and built as a Reach Cleric using a Longspear is pretty much the best fit. It's already been suggested, and with good reason. You buff amazingly, summon well and fight/cast/heal competently. There are more powerful individual builds but in terms of team support few can touch this.

I agree that this is an awesome pure support build, worthy of its own thread. However, my first attempt at a PFS battle cleric using a reach weapon resulted in the realization that enemies need only a 5ft step to crush you. What you describe is not really a battle cleric that can hold his own in melee, particularly without heavy armor or shield proficiency or weapon proficiency in the deity's favored weapon.

As far as summons are concerned, I have found that you generally need to use your highest level summoning spell to get an impact. That means you have at max 2 summons at any odd level and need to crowd out more useful spells to summon them. If you are just doing melee in a pinch, this could really work out though. You could even use your touch of good to further buff your summon each round. Not a bad idea but not exactly what I am looking for.

The Exchange

666bender wrote:

Battle clerics have 3 setbacks that need working.

MAD,str, wis , con, some cha is hard.
Party expect you to heal if you channel possitive.
Time taken to boost.
Easy fix :
Channel negetaive, rose channel smite and guided hand and focus on wisdom, you now can switch hit , spells and melee .
Now the time for boost, my 2 domains are feather and heroism , or feather and trade .
Lvl 1, channel smite and guided hand, with wisdom of 17 you hit well. Channels smite add some damage.
Lvl 3, power attack.
Lvl 5 boon companion
Lvl 7, imp share spells.
You buff 2 rounds the pet, adding the same effect on you. You tiger/ roc / whatever. Attack, buffed and strong, while you build up power.
Than, you switch as your pet is healed and moved back.
Lvl9, sacred summons
Lvl 11&13 argument summon

Your casting ability is super high, you to hit is great. Damage is ok only but pet is there to balance the score.and you are a full lvl caster, with heroism aura and more.

Unfortunately, there is no PFS deity that mixes the heroism and the animal domains (including any subdomain, such as feather). As far as an animal companion build, I am well aware of how well these work. I even have a grandfathered aasimar dedicated to such a build (there is a feat that allows an aasimar to give his companion the celestial template). That being said, such a build is really beyond the scope of what I am trying to do here, which Is create a character that can buff sort of like a bard, serve well as a divine caster, and personally perform reasonably well in melee when required. The summoning is designed to help kind of like a buff, maybe to create a flanker for the fighter, not necessarily as a primary combatant.

The Exchange

Vatras wrote:

The battle priests are not what they once were due to several changes in PF.

- Buffs don't last as long and there are no ways to keep them on forever like you could with the Persistent Spell feat in 3.5. So you have to spend rounds of buffing before you are semi-effective (I played one next to two melees). If you cannot choose when a fight starts, you are stuck with 3 rounds of buffs, one round of closing in and can deliver an attack in rounds 5 and 6. By then most fights are over.
- You have to spend a feat or dip into a melee class to get back heavy armor.
- You can often get a martial weapon by picking your deity, but not always, if you are set on a specific one for the domains. That may cost another feat.
- You get no bonus feats at all like many other classes, and you have to spend 1-2 to get on par already. So you have to neglect either your spells or your melee build.

I found that the big issue is the loss of actions in combat, since I more often than not could not buff before it started.
The war domain and the oracle (battle) can get around some of the problems, but they still have to use buffs if they want to hit something for enough damage to make it count.
The warpriest gets several advantages here. He has the martial weapons and heavy armor from the start and he gains a big advantage with sacred weapon and fervor over the other divine casters, since those are swift actions. He also gets weapon focus for free plus what all divine casters lack: bonus feats to spend on a melee build. So if your purpose is to do mostly melee and have a couple of spells as backup, the class is pretty good.

Back to the OP :)
If you plan to spend time at the frontlines, I recommend Combat Casting. Since you are human and have only one feat at 1st level, that could fit in there. Without this +4 it is pretty unsafe to cast defensively your high spells, and you will probably have to do it sooner or later. While you can often do a 5' step and cast, sometimes you cannot, since the enemy has reach or the space...

If you look at my +18/+20 to hit calculation above (which is very comperable to a martial of the same level), it assumes only one long term buff, heroism. Activating boots of speed is a free action and the quickened divine power is a swift, so this build is fully ready for combat at round 1. As a worst case scenario, the aura of heroism can be activated as a swift action on the second round of battle if heroism has not been pre-cast.

The concentration check issue bothers me as well. Because I have taken care to maintain the casting ability of this build (including spells requiring saves), it only makes sense to be able to effectively use these spells. My assumption was that this would be solved by magic items, notably spellguard bracers and gloves of elvenkind. Perhaps this area requires even more attention.

The Exchange

666bender wrote:
What weapon is 1d8 and 18-20 crit and on its list???

Shizuru has the katana as a favored weapon.

The Exchange

Silver Surfer wrote:

IMO if you have a strong battle focus then you would be much better off with a Warpriest. If however you are primarily support then cleric is a much better bet.

I think the days of 'Battle Clerics' are over. As you level up trying to hit things productively with a physical weapon becomes increasingly inefficient.

I disagree that "Battle Clerics" are not viable these days. At 9th level for example, the character will have a BAB of +6, assuming a +4 strength item a +6 to hit from strength, assuming an extended heroism is up a +2 morale bonus to hit, using a quickened divine favor a +4 (fate's favored) luck bonus to hit and damage, using boots of speed gives a +1 sped bonus to hit, and assuming a +1 keen weapon a +1 enhancement bonus to hit. That is a +20 for 1d8 + 14 damage (15-20 x2). Using power attack, that is a +18 for 1d8 + 20 (15-20 x2) damage.

The Exchange

Renegadeshepherd wrote:
Ok that's fair, may I ask why you want your wisdom so high though? Support clerics rarely need a high DC and you have more than enough to get you by on your entire PFS career without a single item, buff, or tome. Did I miss something?

As I mentioned in an earlier post, my desire is to have at least a 22 WIS at 11th level so that I will have a bonus sixth level spell. I also don't want to have to resort to a +6 headband to do so because they are so expensive. With spells such as heal, harm, and Monster Summoning VI, I believe sixth level spells are worth having as many of as possible.

The Exchange

Covent wrote:
Inspire courage is a competence bonus not morale.

Indeed you are correct, Covent, at least as far as the attack and damage bonuses. I have roots in 3.5, where this was a morale bonus. Thank you for pointing that out. I may need to consider that further. Also, apologies to Fruian.

The Exchange

Renegade, I looked at the Crusader archetype but just was not sold. While it would give a few more feats, it would lose the synergy of the Archon and Heroism domains due to the loss of one domain. The loss of one spell a level is simply devastating. As far as the katana, my plan would be to make it keen anyway.

As far as dual talent, I am on the fence about that myself. I am certain that, based upon prior experience, I want at least three skill points per level, which is easier with a regular human. On the other hand, I want to be able to reach a 22 wis (needed for a bonus 6th level spell) by 11th level without going higher than a +4 headband. At 36,000gp, the +6 headband would crowd out a number of important purchases.

The Exchange

Corvino, that is an interesting idea. I don't know that I would use the feat, but magical lineage could get it down to 4th level, which would help.

Fruian, I am familiar with the Evangelist archetype, but I think it works best for those without the Heroism subdomain, as both inspire courage and heroism provide morale bonuses. I also dislike the wonky spontaneous spell list and armor and weapon limitations. I don't think it is the right choice for a battle cleric, even with reach weapons. It might work for a summoning focused build. The Crusader gives up too much for too little in my opinion.

The Exchange 1/5

On my elf Wizard, even with racial negatives to CON, I gave him a 12. A CON belt is also in his future. I have seen too many arcane casters go down to give a lesser CON score.

The Exchange

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I am looking for some feedback on optimizing a melee/support cleric build. Here is the build:

LG Versatile Human Cleric of Shizuru (+2 Str & Wis)
Traits: Reactionary and Fate's Favored
Domains: Heroism and Archon (Good)

Str: 17 (+1 at 4th)
Dex: 13
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 17 (+1 at 8th)
Cha: 7

1st) Heavy Armor Prof.
3rd) Improved Init.
5th) Power Attack
7th) Sacred Summons
9th) Quicken Spell (for quickened divine favor)
11th) Divine Interference

At 1st through 4th level, this character can buff with bless, heal if needed, and serve in an off-hand tank capacity using a katana.

At 5th level, he will regularly use heroism (likely with a lesser metamagic extend rod) on himself or an ally when appropriate. He will also be able to supplement bless with prayer for longer battles.

At 7th level, he can summon a hound archon as melee assistance using a standard action. Unfortunately, there appears to be no room for augment summoning. He also gains the excellent blessing of fervor buff.

At 8th level, two powerful new abilities come online, which are the focus of the build. He can give a heroism effect to all allies within 30 feet as a swift action. As a standard action, he can activate his aura of menace ability to debuff enemies. With both abilities active, all allies within 30 feet attacking enemies within 30 feet will get an effective +4 to hit (due to the aura of menace debuff to AC).

At 9th level, he will be able to quicken divine favor for +4 to hit and damage (with fate's favored). Also, he should have boots of speed at this time.

At 11th level, divine interference will provide an additional defensive option. Also using a ring of summoning affinity, he will be able to summon a legion archon as a standard action.

I am also considering an alternate build that would allow for augment summoning.

The Exchange 1/5

The scenario described by the OP was also experienced in my area. A VL who has subsequently quit PFS gave a problem player several warnings and even offered to help rebuild the offending player's character, a rogue that UMD'ed a 1st level wand of magic missile as almost his sole combat action, even at level 9! This player's character was similarly useless in non-compete roles. When the player refused to make any changes, he was told not to come back. The whole venue rejoiced and became much more active.

The Exchange

Yes. Corrected my original post for spell level. So 35.

The Exchange

Your DM is incorrect concerning the need to account for damage taken last round. The damage inflicted by a grapple is not continuous, as a grapple check must be made every round. It is thus more like an attack than an exposure to a continuous source of damage. Even if grappling did inflict continuous damage, it would be halved for purposes of the concentration calculation.

Also remember that grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity. Thus, unless someone else other than the construct threatens you, you should not need to cast defensively.

The proper concentration check is thus 10 + Attacker's CMB + spell level which equals 35. I believe that if you needed to cast defensively for some reason, that would be a separate check at 21 (15 + 2x spell level)

The Exchange

Improved initiative looks like a good choice, for starters. For core, which it appears you are using,toughness or great fortitude may also be appropriate.

The Exchange

The monster summoning handbook has a feat called expanded summon monster. You should consider it, as you get no summoning speed benefit from summon evil monster. You already summon monsters as a standard action and they can even act on your turn.

The Exchange

As a summoner, does he not already summon as a standard action?

The Exchange 1/5

Jason Wu wrote:

My brawler quite likes hugging infernals when they're summoned.

They never seem to appreciate it, though.

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that her whole body counts as good aligned vs DR and does extra damage to evil outsiders?


I have on several occasions summoned a babau. You don't want to hug a babau.

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Illusion is the best Core school, IMO. Plenty of powerful spells at low levels (color spray at 1st, mirror image and invisibility at 2nd) and a great 8th level ability, swift action improved invisibility. The Teleportation ability of the base Conjuration school is okay but not nearly as useful. Keep dimension door memorized and it is less of a loss.

Core Wizards seem to universally suffer at low levels as far as school abilities. The 1st level illusion school ability to blind is not terrible, but suffers greatly from hit dice limitations. Still it seems to lose much less utility than petty-damage based abilities offered by other schools.

The Exchange 1/5

pH unbalanced wrote:
The only thing I feel strongly about on this subject is that it hurts me every time I see "Grandfathering" so egregiously misspelled.

I humbly beg forgiveness for my typo. I have spelled if correctly many times in this thread. If I could still edit it in the title, I would.

The Exchange 1/5

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Lab_Rat wrote:
Mystic Madness wrote:
I would agree that it is inappropriate to ask the new coordinator to reconsider every rule ever made. However, these rules are recent, as in days old, and were promulgated with a campaign coordinator with one foot out the door. It is not unreasonable to ask the coordinator who will actually have to live with these brand new rules to reconsider them.

Just a side note that I would take to heart if you wish to have any kind decent social interaction with people in the PFS boards. Don't insinuate that the PFS coordinator or any of the developers or staff are incompetent and negligent in their job and how much they care for the PFS community.

Alot of the people who are vocal on this board have nothing but utmost respect for the job Mike did and how far he took PFS during his tenure. Some of us have shared tables with him, drank beers with him, volunteered our time for him. He was a great coordinator. To insinuate that he was "one foot out the door" is insulting not only to him but to a lot of us who know better.

If it came off as an insult, that was not intended. It was merely a comment that he is not responsible for things that occur after his departure.

Frankly, a few individuals, most particularly FLite, have been trolling pretty hard in this thread. I apologize if my annoyance at him might have bled through the rest of my posts. I mean, FLite is telling me I have already lost when Mr. Compton has specifically stated he is considering grandfathering. The whole point of posting today was seeing if there was an update. Also, I must admit that I was a bit taken aback when I learned they hand out rebuilds as boons but heavily restrict them for characters that are significantly affected by a rule change.

The Exchange 1/5

FLite wrote:
ACG was historic levels of bad. And I would certainly sympathize with people who wanted Paizo to pay to replace hard covers, but I also am not sure logistically how that could ever be done in an effective manner.

With respect to the physical book issue the ACG was exactly what I was talking about. One of my friends bought it like a month before the change for our home PFS games. He was definitely quite a bit more than "annoyed" that he had to consult errata for just about every point mentioned in the book because he could not otherwise be certain whether it had changed. Also, many of the features he bought it for were changed, meaning he probably would have never bought it in the first place. He was, of course, not violently angry or anything like that.

The Exchange 1/5

Andrew Christian wrote:
Regardless of what the new campaign coordinator along with the current campaign leadership team decide, the new rule is as the errata says, and that PFS cannot change.

Mr. Compton has already indicated in this very thread that there is consideration of grandfathering, so your statement above is clearly incorrect. Also, his comment that he needed to consult others is what made me ask if his comments are advisory or authoritative. My comments about authority were not meant to disparage any employee of Paizo, including particularly Mr. Compton. I appreciated his willingness to respond.

The Exchange 1/5

The Fox wrote:

Here is the effect that I'm seeing: friends of mine are considering scrapping their characters entirely because of the change to the FCB.

They are feeling blind-sided by the errata.

Rather than quibbling over who has authority, we should be talking about this. These changes are clearly a significant customer service problem for Paizo. Moreover, this problem is compounded by the fact that people who buy physical books, like many friends of mine, are outraged that they will have to consult pages upon pages of errata to use them. Adding insult to such injury is not wise.

The Exchange 1/5

Andrew Roberts wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Just don't create a character dependent on a very extreme rule, and you usually won't have to worry about table variation or whatnot.
I'm not sure I can qualify this as a "very extreme rule." We were given no warning about it happening and it had been established for 2 years that it worked that way.

Agreed, and this is why I am particularly annoyed.

The Exchange 1/5

The Fox wrote:

John's word regarding PFS rulings carries the full weight of campaign coordinator, especially right now as he is acting in that capacity pro tem.

Moreover, when we do get a new campaign coordinator, I think that it is inappropriate to ask them their opinion on a bunch of different rulings that past coordinators made. You may safely assume that the old rulings are still current until otherwise notified.

Here is what Mr. Compton said: "Just to be clear, I am not the new campaign coordinator. I am, however, handling the campaign coordinator duties as best I can on top of my developer duties until we finalize the hiring of the new coordinator."

I would agree that it is inappropriate to ask the new coordinator to reconsider every rule ever made. However, these rules are recent, as in days old, and were promulgated with a campaign coordinator with one foot out the door. It is not unreasonable to ask the coordinator who will actually have to live with these brand new rules to reconsider them.

The Exchange 1/5

TetsujinOni wrote:

So, the bottom line seems to be this, Mystic...

Having *just* created a rule to cover the precise change that was coming, what good policy purpose would be served by making an exception to that brand new rule before the first time it is put into practice to evaluate whether it serves its intended purpose?

Actually, this is the correct time to point out a problem with a rule, when it is promulgated. The ambiguity in the rule is what this whole thread is about. I explained why it is my position (and still is) that a rebuild is allowed under current rules but it could be stated better.

Relatedly, I would also point out that Paizo has announced that it has lost Mike Brock as organized play coordinator and has not announced a replacement. While I appreciate Mr. Compton's response, is it authoritative like Mike Brock's would be or is merely an opinion like James Jacob's? Given the fact that we will have a new coordinator, it is appropriate to ask what his or her position is.

The Exchange 1/5

Andrew Christian wrote:

What you are viewing is really the fringe discussions that happen online. The number of times I've run into any of the issues you see discussed on the boards, on a daily basis, I can count on one hand. In 4-1/2 years, 253 GM credits and about 200 tables played.

Just don't create a character dependent on a very extreme rule, and you usually won't have to worry about table variation or whatnot.

What is an extreme rule? Looking at just core, Paladins are incredibly powerful relative to a significant proportion of even recent content, possessing good attack ability against most foes, great attack ability against evil foes, staying power due to lay on hands, class skills that allow him to be a "face" character, and awesome saves and immunities. Should no one make a Paladin?

When looking at the big picture, the Aasimar FCB hardly made my character overpowered. He is best at one type of healing, so what? A cleric could outdistance him in so many other areas that it is not funny, as was explained earlier in this thread.

The Exchange 1/5

Lab_Rat wrote:
However when you made the character you where in full knowledge that rules can change and that there are rebuild rules in place to handle that. So the risks of building a character reliant on an FCB bonus that was obviously stronger than others was known to you. It would be nice to get some lenience on the rebuild rules for this case but no one should be demanding a full rebuild because Paizo wronged them.

To start with, no one is "demanding" a full rebuild. Grandfathering would be perfectly fine. However, if grandfathering is not in the cards, I would want the ability to change my channeling-related feats and possibly the race to human so I could get more spells at least.

Second, there were no rebuild rules one way or the other for FCB's at that time, nor was there any contemplation that FCB's would be changed. The ARG was also not a new book when I made my character. Moreover, every class has a feature or power that is somehow better than another; tying to predict what Paizo will nerf is not a realistic goal. Hell, they just nerfed wild armor from the core rule book.

The Exchange 1/5

FLite wrote:

No. You would not have been.

If they had changed channels per day from charisma to intelligence, you would get a complete rebuild. If they changed if from 1+cha bonus to cha bonus (minimum 1) or 1d6 per 3 levels, you get no rebuild.

Also, you are comparing 20-30 full rebuilds a year to something on the order of 100,000 rebuilds. The two have vastly different effects on game.

I have a little sympathy for the people who were using fcb + multiclassing to keep channel / bard song relevant. But in your case, you are trying to get 15 level channeling in a 10th level caster. I just don't have a lot of sympathy for you. (I also have limited sympathy for the guys who were trying to get 15th level shapeshifting at 10th level. There is a reason that is an 15th level power. Yeah, I understand that you spent a lot of money on minis, and I do sympathize a little on that. But seriously? 15th level shapeshifting 5 levels early? That is pretty abusable.

I disagree with your interpretation. There was a prior rebuild rule that read differently and consistent with what you are saying, but the more recent rule says that if an ability-score dependent feature of a class is altered, a rebuild is permitted. If the rebuild changes a required ability score, than an item to enhance the ability score may be sold back at full price.

As far as your sympathy, I simply don't care about your uninformed opinion. I made my character pursuant to ARG rules that existed at the time (and had, in fact, been in place for several years). I have also explained the reason why the character is otherwise inferior to a cleric of the same level, and why my choices would have been different otherwise. When I choose one set of tradeoffs and have the rug pulled out from under me, I am understandably unhappy. If Paizo doesn't want massive rebuilds, then grandfather or don't make massive changes to the rules.

ETA: Old rule, from season 5 Handbook: "If a class, prestige class, or a class feature-dependent ability score is altered: You may rebuild your character to its current XP, maintaining the same equipment."

New Rule: "If an ability-score-dependent feature of a class, prestige class, or archetype is altered: You may rebuild your character to its current XP. Keep the same equipment, but you can resell any equipment that augments the changed ability score at its full market price."

Obviously the change was intended to focus on the change in a required ability score to a change in an "ability-score-dependent" feature.

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