are any of those numbers being ran also using the stamina and big six replacement systems? i plan on allow those in my games and wonder how it will affect playing a monk. I am a fan of the combat trick of stunning fist being used with the one touch ki power, and the free enhancement bonuses opening up the chance to grab a agile impact amof sounds fun as well.
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Shame about Johnathan's posts being deleted (as I suspected they would). Good thing I saved them all into a document. :P
So, this is going to be the document on some things I like. I'm not, however, going to go into as much detail as my previous post though.
I'm really pleased with the changes to weapon proficiencies and it feels like something long overdue. The changes to Flurry are interesting and good.
The Flurry changes are, perhaps, the second best change to the Monk overall. It really sets his ability apart from others who can gain bonus attacks as his attacks are at no penalty.
Abundant Step: I like that it's in the useable range now and I expect more Monks to want to head down the Dimensional Dervish feat chain as it's actually possible at this point.
Cobra Breath: Despite the issue outlined in my previous posts, this is still a really cool ability.
Diamond Soul: Perhaps the best part of this change is the fact that it's now an optional ability by default. Meaning that no longer are Monks at risk of being screwed over by spells unless they want to be.
Elemental Fury: I really like this ability as it functions more like a Magus Arcana than some other abilities that the Monk has received in the past. Such as spending Kit for an enhancement bonus for 1 round as opposed to 1 minute.
Elemental Burst: I really like this, but that doesn't stop it from receiving the criticism it deserves. It should have been a lower level ability.
Insightful Wisdom: Just a good ability all around. Rerolls are always appreciated.
Ki Guardian: The ability to make a save for an ally in their stead is just amazing. Got a Cleric with no dex? Stick next to him and watch him shrug off the dragon's breath attack.
Ki Metabolism: Oh gosh, this ability. So thematically awesome, and mechanically great too. Just all around fantastic addition in my opinion. I've always preferred my Monks to function this way, and now I don't have to buy magical items to do so.
Ki Mount: Ha! The Monk is now the only class who can make a regular old horse survive into higher levels!
Ki Range: This is a good ability for shuriken and the like, but it doesn't have a duration on it. I hope it's not for just 1 round though.
Ki Visions: Classic! 'Nuff said.
Ki Volley: This ability is fun enough that it almost makes me want to take Diamond Soul, if only for the chance to ready an action to activate Diamond Soul when I get targeted with a spell so I have the chance to reflect it back on someone.
Light Steps: This makes me want to experiment wit shenanigans of all kinds. For example, forcing my GM to nail down what he considers a 'solid surface'. I mean, snow is technically ice, which is a solid surface, so could I, perhaps, run through the air, jumping from snow flake to snow flake? I dunno, but it would be bad ass visual, that's for certain!
Qinggong Power: Probably one of the best powers to choose from.
Sudden Speed: Absolutely awesome! When you need to move, and fast, this is the power you need!
Water Sprint: A much needed power in my opinion. Why this wasn't in the game earlier, I don't know.
Style Strike: Do I really need to comment on this? With the exception of Head-butt these all of some neat applications to them. Since Mark spoiled my secret plans, I'm particularly looking forward to mixing Snake Style, a high AC and Foot Stomp together to make enemies stick around and fight me.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon: The only complain I have hear is that I wish it would scale from lower to higher levels. But, now it's finally at a point where it can reasonably be used.
Perfect Self: I like the addition of the meditation mechanic to this. Given enough time, this lets the Monk be an entirely self-sufficient character. He can heal his own wounds, buff himself (with the right Ki Powers) and sneak into nearly any fortress (with Ethereal Body). Really made his capstone worth something useful.
So, while I am not entirely pleased with the Unchained Monk, I do greatly enjoy a number of it's changes. Like I said, my two biggest gripes is the loss of the Will save, and the lack of Ki. Any other faults with the Monk wouldn't really be as big of an issue considering I am smart enough with the system to overcome most any other weakness.
I should add, the Spider Step and Cloud Step feats just got a lot more powerful though. You now, automatically, get the 50 ft. of movement they provide at maximum. Possibly it should be Unchained to function with double the Fast Movement speed instead?
P.S. But that also makes it all the more surprising that folks seem unhappy with the Unchained Monk. Looks like a fine class to me. I don't see much *evidence* to back up all the complaining.At Tels's suggestion, I did a quick build out of a Core Monk for comparison in my <Testing the Unchained Monk> thread.
No surprise, the Unchained Monk looks significantly better.
Not having played a Core Monk before or experimented with the class, I *was* a bit surprised at just how poorly the straightforward build performs (even after letting it grab Qinggong powers so it could get barkskin). I can see why people didn't love it. :-O
"Better than one of the worst classes" is not a ringing endorsement.
We didn't just want a token effort to improve the class, we wanted something up to snuff with the more powerful martial classes. Paladin, Barbarian, Ranger, Slayer (sort of).
It does not achieve that hope. Not even close.
It has improved significantly at very low levels of optimization. It is no longer a "trap" that requires massive system mastery to make functional. But neither is it great.
So show me Core builds for those classes, following the same principles I follow in my Fighter and Monk builds, and we can compare them. It may be the case that the Monk would come out more poorly in those comparisons. I don't know. But so far I haven't seen much in the way of *evidence* to support all the negativity here, nothing to establish the claim that the class is somehow fundamentally weak. Show me the *data*.
(Your TWF entry was on the right track, though the numbers were mistaken.)
Core build of Fighter and Monk? Is that your benchmark for the Unchained Monk class? I seriously hope not. They are the weakest class in the entire Pathfinder game.
Compare the Unchained Monk with the Magus and then you will have a genuine snapshot of the power rating of the Unchained Monk class.
P.S. But that also makes it all the more surprising that folks seem unhappy with the Unchained Monk. Looks like a fine class to me. I don't see much *evidence* to back up all the complaining.At Tels's suggestion, I did a quick build out of a Core Monk for comparison in my <Testing the Unchained Monk> thread.
No surprise, the Unchained Monk looks significantly better.
Not having played a Core Monk before or experimented with the class, I *was* a bit surprised at just how poorly the straightforward build performs (even after letting it grab Qinggong powers so it could get barkskin). I can see why people didn't love it. :-O
The issue for me is that it seems like there was a different design plan for rogues and monks. For rogues, they pretty much added to it to make it better. For the monk it seemed that the idea was that for every cool addition, they where required to take something cool away or add an annoying caveat to it to make it meh or useless. Bump up it's BAB/HD---> bad will. Make powers a list to choose from instead of locked--->Ki use for everything from a TINY pool. Lets add some cool powers they can use while flurrying--->Requiring using a specific body part. I'm surprised they didn't lose something to get all monk weapon proficiencies.
Rogue was a straight up upgrade. Monk was a mostly lateral move to what I'd say was a good first step in improving the monk but not what I'd wanted the final product to be. The complete lack of support from archetypes doesn't help either. I'll give the new monk a try, but it really seems like a lost opportunity to make something great since I see glimmers of awesomeness underneath it all.
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P.S. But that also makes it all the more surprising that folks seem unhappy with the Unchained Monk. Looks like a fine class to me. I don't see much *evidence* to back up all the complaining.At Tels's suggestion, I did a quick build out of a Core Monk for comparison in my <Testing the Unchained Monk> thread.
No surprise, the Unchained Monk looks significantly better.
Not having played a Core Monk before or experimented with the class, I *was* a bit surprised at just how poorly the straightforward build performs (even after letting it grab Qinggong powers so it could get barkskin). I can see why people didn't love it. :-O
"Better than one of the worst classes" is not a ringing endorsement.
We didn't just want a token effort to improve the class, we wanted something up to snuff with the more powerful martial classes. Paladin, Barbarian, Ranger, Slayer (sort of).
It does not achieve that hope. Not even close.
It has improved significantly at very low levels of optimization. It is no longer a "trap" that requires massive system mastery to make functional. But neither is it great.
So show me Core builds for those classes, following the same principles I follow in my Fighter and Monk builds, and we can compare them. It may be the case that the Monk would come out more poorly in those comparisons. I don't know. But so far I haven't seen much in the way of *evidence* to support all the negativity here, nothing to establish the claim that the class is somehow fundamentally weak. Show me the *data*.
(Your TWF entry was on the right track, though the numbers were mistaken.)
Core build of Fighter and Monk? Is that your benchmark for the Unchained Monk class? I seriously hope not. They are the weakest class in the entire Pathfinder game.
Compare the Unchained Monk with the Magus and then you...
I refer you to my "Testing the Unchained Monk" thread, and some of my discussion with Rynjin upthread here, for an explanation of the principles behind the choice of basic benchmarks (the Core Fighter was my initial benchmark; I ran the Core Monk at Tels's request to see the difference). If you are interested in comparing the Monk to other classes, such as the Magus, then I repeat my invitation to Rynjin—submit a build following the general principles I've used for my builds (to control variables as far as possible so we're comparing apples to apples), and we can see how they stack up.
Again, let's look for *data* here, good *evidence* to support our claims. I've been offering evidence and explaining my reasoning as I work out my thoughts on the new class. I have not seen much good evidence adduced to support the contrary evaluations that many here are offering. Show me the data.
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How many years do you think it'll be before Pathfinder Unshackled has an Unshackled Monk made by Mark :PYou're probably looking at 2nd edition Pathfinder for that.
To be honest, I'd actually buy P.5 if it had a Mark made Monk...
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P.S. But that also makes it all the more surprising that folks seem unhappy with the Unchained Monk. Looks like a fine class to me. I don't see much *evidence* to back up all the complaining.At Tels's suggestion, I did a quick build out of a Core Monk for comparison in my <Testing the Unchained Monk> thread.
No surprise, the Unchained Monk looks significantly better.
Not having played a Core Monk before or experimented with the class, I *was* a bit surprised at just how poorly the straightforward build performs (even after letting it grab Qinggong powers so it could get barkskin). I can see why people didn't love it. :-O
"Better than one of the worst classes" is not a ringing endorsement.
We didn't just want a token effort to improve the class, we wanted something up to snuff with the more powerful martial classes. Paladin, Barbarian, Ranger, Slayer (sort of).
It does not achieve that hope. Not even close.
It has improved significantly at very low levels of optimization. It is no longer a "trap" that requires massive system mastery to make functional. But neither is it great.
So show me Core builds for those classes, following the same principles I follow in my Fighter and Monk builds, and we can compare them. It may be the case that the Monk would come out more poorly in those comparisons. I don't know. But so far I haven't seen much in the way of *evidence* to support all the negativity here, nothing to establish the claim that the class is somehow fundamentally weak. Show me the *data*.
(Your TWF entry was on the right track, though the numbers were mistaken.)
A simple, low-op Core only build is counter-productive when I'm talking about how any of the classes fare at high optimization levels.
The data is simply in the class abilities as presented. OPTIONS those classes have that the Unchained Monk does not.
The Paladin has superior saves (a build is not needed to prove this fact, his Will save has a better progression and he adds one of his main stats to it along with the norm), the Paladin has superior durability and healing (again, no build is required to prove that Lay on Hands provides superior longevity over at best Wholeness of Body, and at worst, no alternative). And the Paladin has spells.
Whipping up a level 11 character every time I want to prove that, yes, having something is better than not having something, and X+1 is superior to X will get very tedious, very quickly.
Well seems I did get in a bit of trouble, since my posts were deleted. Though honestly I wouldn't call posting a single class in full with its features 'large blocks of content'. More, it had its purpose, allowing for a stronger discussion without confusion or incomplete information about what is being talked about.
... yet I guess I should be glad I wasn't penalized in any way. Admittingly, I don't even know if the site has a penalty system in place.
Sorry, man. I hope that my request did not get you in hot water with the moderators.
MA
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While the new build may have problems, keep in mind that the biggest boon is not so much the current new features as it is the way the class itself is now FORMATTED. now that the class abilities pull from lists of options, deficiencies can be addressed with new abilities. lacking Ki? the designers releases a Ki ability that grants you double your WIS bonus or fuses your pool with a pool from another class for multi-classers. need more style strikes? release a feat that lets you use an extra one. loss of will save got you down? there's an app future ability for that.
That being said, the fact that you have to use up slots to make such fixes is unfortunate, but we have quite a few slots to work with. remember, we now have an UPGRADABLE monk. just so long as the unadorned unchained monk functions at least as well as a base fighter, the developing team has succeeded. The bells and whistles can come later.
all that being said, here are my thoughts:
THE GOOD:
-full BAB
-customizable
-flurry greatly improved
-more of a fantasy monk than the "reflects real life" monk of old
-style (hereafter referred to as "STYLISH!" in my head when playing) strikes
THE BAD:
- style strikes allow for only one at a time and a second on comes online very late. You are stuck sticking to a favorite with some versatility for specific situations (at the expense of using said favorite) possibly fixable with a ki power or a feat.
-STILL needs a fix for the "masterwork weapon" problem, that problem being that you can't apply inherent enhancement bonuses to strikes like you can to normal weapons. the only thing blocking this is the ability to masterwork your strikes.
- feather balance is useless and only serves as an ability tax for light steps.
- style strikes rely on specific body parts. This takes away from roll play a good bit and doesn't serve a mechanical purpose.
- defenses are WAY too ki intensive. Should be 1round/lvl not just one round. without those defenses, the monk becomes very MAD. with and dex is no longer a concern.
THE NEEEEEEEEEEEEEED (in the future):
-WHERE.....IS....MY......HADOUKEN?!?!?
-a rising dragon punch!
-whirlwind kick A-LA sanji of One Piece for crowd control
-combo strikes. just so long as you have the strikes, you can preform a special combo strike as a full round action. examples: flying kick + Spin Kick= flying helicopter kick! shattering fist+ hammerblow= deal ability damage! Headbutt + Knockback Kick= rising dragon punch! (technically a punch but the body part reliance is terrible anyway) the strike throws your enemy into the air and you can make the rest of your (non-flurry) attacks vs flat footed (the imagery of the combo is beautiful)
have I missed anything here? Will saves were brought up, but I think the high WIS + Still Mind have that covered.
I'm just sad that there's real way to Hadoken with the monk.
No, I don't want to wait to 18th level to smack someone from across the room with a ki blast.
While the new build may have problems, keep in mind that the biggest boon is not so much the current new features as it is the way the class itself is now FORMATTED. now that the class abilities pull from lists of options, deficiencies can be addressed with new abilities. lacking Ki? the designers releases a Ki ability that grants you double your WIS bonus or fuses your pool with a pool from another class for multi-classers. need more style strikes? release a feat that lets you use an extra one. loss of will save got you down? there's an
appfuture ability for that.That being said, the fact that you have to use up slots to make such fixes is unfortunate, but we have quite a few slots to work with. remember, we now have an UPGRADABLE monk. just so long as the unadorned unchained monk functions at least as well as a base fighter, the developing team has succeeded. The bells and whistles can come later.
all that being said, here are my thoughts:
THE GOOD:
-full BAB
-customizable
-flurry greatly improved
-more of a fantasy monk than the "reflects real life" monk of old
-style (hereafter referred to as "STYLISH!" in my head when playing) strikesTHE BAD:
- style strikes allow for only one at a time and a second on comes online very late. You are stuck sticking to a favorite with some versatility for specific situations (at the expense of using said favorite) possibly fixable with a ki power or a feat.
-STILL needs a fix for the "masterwork weapon" problem, that problem being that you can't apply inherent enhancement bonuses to strikes like you can to normal weapons. the only thing blocking this is the ability to masterwork your strikes.
- feather balance is useless and only serves as an ability tax for light steps.
- style strikes rely on specific body parts. This takes away from roll play a good bit and doesn't serve a mechanical purpose.
- defenses are WAY too ki intensive. Should be 1round/lvl not just one round. without those defenses, the monk becomes very MAD. with and dex is no...
It is missing the Swordsage's Pearl of Black Doubt, the monk's enemies attacks gets worse because he gets depressed that the monk keeps on dodging all his attacks and Shadow Garrotte, a shadow version of the monk instantly appears behind his enemies choking them.
Pretty good list
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Well seems I did get in a bit of trouble, since my posts were deleted. Though honestly I wouldn't call posting a single class in full with its features 'large blocks of content'. More, it had its purpose, allowing for a stronger discussion without confusion or incomplete information about what is being talked about.
... yet I guess I should be glad I wasn't penalized in any way. Admittingly, I don't even know if the site has a penalty system in place.
Sorry, man. I hope that my request did not get you in hot water with the moderators.
MA
It's okay, seems the water is at best luke warm.
Shame about Johnathan's posts being deleted (as I suspected they would). Good thing I saved them all into a document. :PShame indeed. He should have included the OGL in his posts, it is OGL material after all.
Yes, I very much think the moderation was in error for deleting my posts... too late to add the OGL now.
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My posts being deleted isn't a huge deal, especially since there are other ways of getting the information on the Unchained Monk out there to be available for review and consideration.
My posts being deleted isn't a huge deal, especially since there are other ways of getting the information on the Unchained Monk out there to be available for review and consideration.
I've been hearing a lot of comments (both in and out of this thread) that the flurry has been modified to strongly resemble the flurry from 3.5.
Now, I love this change and would hate to lose it... but...
Does anyone else find it funny that Pathfinder Unchained was said to be the book where the Devs do whatever they want without having to be concerned with backwards campatibility... and one of the changes they made to the unchained monk was to give it the 3.5 Flurry of Blows?
*Snicker*
Honestly, I really didn't see much "unchaining" with any of the unchained classes. If anything the Monk, Barbarian, and Summoner all got a lot more 'chained' by replacing a lot of their unique qualities with being remade into the Generic Paizo Class Templates.
Honestly, I really didn't see much "unchaining" with any of the unchained classes.
Yeah... I mean, the stated goal was to make without having to deal with old baggage, which makes you think that they'd remake them from scratch.
But each class is basically a tweaked version of it's previous versions. They're "fixes" rather than actually being unchained from the baggage.
Honestly, I really didn't see much "unchaining" with any of the unchained classes. If anything the Monk, Barbarian, and Summoner all got a lot more 'chained' by replacing a lot of their unique qualities with being remade into the Generic Paizo Class Templates.I've been hearing a lot of comments (both in and out of this thread) that the flurry has been modified to strongly resemble the flurry from 3.5.
Now, I love this change and would hate to lose it... but...
Does anyone else find it funny that Pathfinder Unchained was said to be the book where the Devs do whatever they want without having to be concerned with backwards campatibility... and one of the changes they made to the unchained monk was to give it the 3.5 Flurry of Blows?
*Snicker*
The rogue was unchained. He gained but lost nothing. He can qualify to all the archetypes Ninja can now.
The monk and Barb lost archetypes and were changed to be sidegraded. Not an upgrade but different.|
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Honestly, I really didn't see much "unchaining" with any of the unchained classes.Yeah... I mean, the stated goal was to make without having to deal with old baggage, which makes you think that they'd remake them from scratch.
But each class is basically a tweaked version of it's previous versions. They're "fixes" rather than actually being unchained from the baggage.
It makes good sense, I think, that this section of the book is less "unchainy" than the rest. After all, you want these classes to fit comfortably into a standard PF game without disruption (why they fit right into PFS). I see the purpose of the class section as more modest, just to bring these four more in-line with the rest of the PF classes.
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While the new build may have problems, keep in mind that the biggest boon is not so much the current new features as it is the way the class itself is now FORMATTED. now that the class abilities pull from lists of options, deficiencies can be addressed with new abilities. lacking Ki? the designers releases a Ki ability that grants you double your WIS bonus or fuses your pool with a pool from another class for multi-classers. need more style strikes? release a feat that lets you use an extra one. loss of will save got you down? there's an
appfuture ability for that.That being said, the fact that you have to use up slots to make such fixes is unfortunate, but we have quite a few slots to work with. remember, we now have an UPGRADABLE monk. just so long as the unadorned unchained monk functions at least as well as a base fighter, the developing team has succeeded. The bells and whistles can come later.
Thank you. That's exactly right. That's why I've been running my basic tests, but you've done a better job than I have in highlighting this side of things. So thanks!
:-)
It makes good sense, I think, that this section of the book is less "unchainy" than the rest. After all, you want these classes to fit comfortably into a standard PF game without disruption (why they fit right into PFS). I see the purpose of the class section as more modest, just to bring these four more in-line with the rest of the PF classes.
They could have classes fit comfortably into a standard PF game and still make them from scratch. The unchained monk itself has all the negatives of if it was made from scratch with disallowing it from previous archetypes, but was still made using the original as a major scaffold, which likely limited the classes potential severely.
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While the new build may have problems, keep in mind that the biggest boon is not so much the current new features as it is the way the class itself is now FORMATTED. now that the class abilities pull from lists of options, deficiencies can be addressed with new abilities. lacking Ki? the designers releases a Ki ability that grants you double your WIS bonus or fuses your pool with a pool from another class for multi-classers. need more style strikes? release a feat that lets you use an extra one. loss of will save got you down? there's an
appfuture ability for that.That being said, the fact that you have to use up slots to make such fixes is unfortunate, but we have quite a few slots to work with. remember, we now have an UPGRADABLE monk. just so long as the unadorned unchained monk functions at least as well as a base fighter, the developing team has succeeded. The bells and whistles can come later.
Thank you. That's exactly right. That's why I've been running my basic tests, but you've done a better job than I have in highlighting this side of things. So thanks!
:-)
Sure, just make an unchained monk and wait for the future archetypes that may or may not come out to make the character you want. Shouldn't be too long now. Any minute really. All these problems are fine. I'm sure the other classes will stop laughing once that future support shows up. Who needs bells and whistles when youre almost as good as a vanilla fighter...
While the new build may have problems, keep in mind that the biggest boon is not so much the current new features as it is the way the class itself is now FORMATTED. now that the class abilities pull from lists of options, deficiencies can be addressed with new abilities. lacking Ki? the designers releases a Ki ability that grants you double your WIS bonus or fuses your pool with a pool from another class for multi-classers. need more style strikes? release a feat that lets you use an extra one. loss of will save got you down? there's an
appfuture ability for that.That being said, the fact that you have to use up slots to make such fixes is unfortunate, but we have quite a few slots to work with. remember, we now have an UPGRADABLE monk. just so long as the unadorned unchained monk functions at least as well as a base fighter, the developing team has succeeded. The bells and whistles can come later.
Thank you. That's exactly right. That's why I've been running my basic tests, but you've done a better job than I have in highlighting this side of things. So thanks!
:-)
Setting your expectations to 'as good as a core fighter' is a VERY low bar at this point in the game...
The issue for me is that it seems like there was a different design plan for rogues and monks. For rogues, they pretty much added to it to make it better. For the monk it seemed that the idea was that for every cool addition, they where required to take something cool away or add an annoying caveat to it to make it meh or useless. Bump up it's BAB/HD---> bad will. Make powers a list to choose from instead of locked--->Ki use for everything from a TINY pool. Lets add some cool powers they can use while flurrying--->Requiring using a specific body part. I'm surprised they didn't lose something to get all monk weapon proficiencies.
Rogue was a straight up upgrade. Monk was a mostly lateral move to what I'd say was a good first step in improving the monk but not what I'd wanted the final product to be. The complete lack of support from archetypes doesn't help either. I'll give the new monk a try, but it really seems like a lost opportunity to make something great since I see glimmers of awesomeness underneath it all.
Precisely. It would seem that in spite of hundreds of threads pointing that the monk was a weak class, and why, Paizo completely missed it and keep missing it. It's like the monk is their blind-spot. Thankfully it's the only major blind-spot, but it does beggar belief that after all these years they STILL can't wrap their heads around the concept or the mechanics to produce a monk that is both viable and thematic.
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Precisely. It would seem that in spite of hundreds of threads pointing that the monk was a weak class, and why, Paizo completely missed it and keep missing it. It's like the monk is their blind-spot. Thankfully it's the only major blind-spot, but it does beggar belief that after all these years they STILL can't wrap their heads around the concept or the mechanics to produce a monk that is both viable and thematic.The issue for me is that it seems like there was a different design plan for rogues and monks. For rogues, they pretty much added to it to make it better. For the monk it seemed that the idea was that for every cool addition, they where required to take something cool away or add an annoying caveat to it to make it meh or useless. Bump up it's BAB/HD---> bad will. Make powers a list to choose from instead of locked--->Ki use for everything from a TINY pool. Lets add some cool powers they can use while flurrying--->Requiring using a specific body part. I'm surprised they didn't lose something to get all monk weapon proficiencies.
Rogue was a straight up upgrade. Monk was a mostly lateral move to what I'd say was a good first step in improving the monk but not what I'd wanted the final product to be. The complete lack of support from archetypes doesn't help either. I'll give the new monk a try, but it really seems like a lost opportunity to make something great since I see glimmers of awesomeness underneath it all.
It's worth mentioning that most of the ways that they upgraded Rogues did it in such a way as to discourage multi-classing -- or at least to make it no more attractive than it started. When I rebuilt my PFS Rogue -- who had been created with the intention of being a Rogue/Witch/Arcane Trickster -- I found that following my original plan would cause me to miss out on most of the new toys. *And* that I could now do most of the things I wanted within a single-class build. (Thank you, upgraded Minor & Major Magic.)
I bring this up because it is clear from the way that they designed the Unchained Monk that a lot of what they were looking at was changing the way it interacted with multi-classing synergies. If the Unchained Monk is a straight side-grade in results, but done in such away that it requires/encourages less dipping in other classes, I think the Design Team would consider that to be an upgrade. It's as much about simplification as power level. (As also evidenced by the Unchained Barbarian, which was never advertised as anything other than a sidegrade for simplification's sake.)
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Precisely. It would seem that in spite of hundreds of threads pointing that the monk was a weak class, and why, Paizo completely missed it and keep missing it. It's like the monk is their blind-spot. Thankfully it's the only major blind-spot, but it does beggar belief that after all these years they STILL can't wrap their heads around the concept or the mechanics to produce a monk that is both viable and thematic.The issue for me is that it seems like there was a different design plan for rogues and monks. For rogues, they pretty much added to it to make it better. For the monk it seemed that the idea was that for every cool addition, they where required to take something cool away or add an annoying caveat to it to make it meh or useless. Bump up it's BAB/HD---> bad will. Make powers a list to choose from instead of locked--->Ki use for everything from a TINY pool. Lets add some cool powers they can use while flurrying--->Requiring using a specific body part. I'm surprised they didn't lose something to get all monk weapon proficiencies.
Rogue was a straight up upgrade. Monk was a mostly lateral move to what I'd say was a good first step in improving the monk but not what I'd wanted the final product to be. The complete lack of support from archetypes doesn't help either. I'll give the new monk a try, but it really seems like a lost opportunity to make something great since I see glimmers of awesomeness underneath it all.
Wait, are you telling me that Paizo was using Core Flurry of Blows to come up with ideas for this class? That explains so much!
Honestly, I really didn't see much "unchaining" with any of the unchained classes. If anything the Monk, Barbarian, and Summoner all got a lot more 'chained' by replacing a lot of their unique qualities with being remade into the Generic Paizo Class Templates.I've been hearing a lot of comments (both in and out of this thread) that the flurry has been modified to strongly resemble the flurry from 3.5.
Now, I love this change and would hate to lose it... but...
Does anyone else find it funny that Pathfinder Unchained was said to be the book where the Devs do whatever they want without having to be concerned with backwards campatibility... and one of the changes they made to the unchained monk was to give it the 3.5 Flurry of Blows?
*Snicker*
The rogue was unchained. He gained but lost nothing. He can qualify to all the archetypes Ninja can now.
The monk and Barb lost archetypes and were changed to be sidegraded. Not an upgrade but different.
Actually, I find the Unchained Barbarian got a lot of subtle but powerful nerfs, several of their best powers like Spell Sunder and Come and Get Me were redone in heavily downgraded versions, reduced damage with two-handed weapons, rage no longer boosting fortitude saves...
Plus I never really understood why it needed redoing at all. I mean, the only "problem" is that Paizo thinks adding four strength is complicated and confusing compared to adding +2 to melee hit and damage.
Admittedly rage adding temp HP change is nice, but from what I've seen that's the only thing that the barbarian gained by being "unchained." (Okay, there are a few new rage powers too, but that hardly requires a class rewrite).
As a Monk Fan I was pretty disheartened by the Crane Wing changes and honestly hadn't been frequenting the forums for along time because of that(more of the straw that broke the camel's back scenario but I digress). However when I heard there was an Unchained Monk in the works, I'll admit I was curious and hopeful. So where do I stand after reading it? The same way I feel about Avengers 2: I like it but have mixed feelings, basically the same as the 1400 or so other posters I've read in this thread. My 2 cp tho:
-I found it really funny that every one likes the new Flurry, it's basically a more restrictive version of the 3.5 Flurry. It'd be a straight downgrade were it not for the BAB bump, and I find it amusing no one mentioned it yet(unless I missed it).
-I really don't like how slow and expensive all lot of the defensive Ki Powers are. If you get poisoned with Diamond Body, I have to actually get poisoned first, depending on the effect it could still be debilitating, and then on your turn as a SWIFT you can turn off the poison. Same with fear and so on. That's just not good enough imo to make those real choices, especially when you make Formless Master an immediate but relegate the others to a swift when they actually need it. Certain powers are gonna be picked immediately(Abundant Step at an actually useful level!), but by and large a lot of dead/niche powers especially with the new Quivering Palm. I do however like the IDEA of a sweet of customisable powers for a Monk, I think that's what everyone liked about the Quigong(sp?) Archetype.
-Full BAB, Monk Weapon Proficiency & the strikes are the good and the clearest boons to the class. HD is nice too, but unnecessary even if it's tied to the BaB.
- I could go on and on about the Will Save, but the roll twice ability is the real kicker, why not just make it a Ki power and let them choose it way earlier. Sure it'd be another false choice(you'd be dumb to not take it immediately) but at least it would be there.
-Really, the bonus feats are untouched? Super weird to me.
Over all, like others have said it's got its ups and downs but I do like it inspite of its issues, as I did the Regular Monk. It's weird to me how in a lot of ways this feels like a weird concession of what a lot of people wanted(make monks full BAB, make Quigong the default monk, etc) but then they arbitrarily needed the monk after though. Just my thoughts though.
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Actually, I find the Unchained Barbarian got a lot of subtle but powerful nerfs, several of their best powers like Spell Sunder and Come and Get Me were redone in heavily downgraded versions, reduced damage with two-handed weapons, rage no longer boosting fortitude saves...
Plus I never really understood why it needed redoing at all. I mean, the only "problem" is that Paizo thinks adding four strength is complicated and confusing compared to adding +2 to melee hit and damage.
Admittedly rage adding temp HP change is nice, but from what I've seen that's the only thing that the barbarian gained by being "unchained." (Okay, there are a few new rage powers too, but that hardly requires a class rewrite).
Agreed. I've gone through the barbarian rage powers from Unchained and it's a mixed bag at best. Aside from a half-dozen rage powers being worked into stances, we got very little that's truly new with this book. There are 4 new rages powers, none of which are stellar, though they are decent. Also, a number of powers that were once/rage before-hand have now been changed to once/day, a HORRIBLE trade-off. Now, a number of powers did get outright upgrades, like Guarded Stance (now a better bonus and applies to ranged attacks), Increased Damage Reduction and Swift Foot (both had their benefits doubled), or Witch Hunter (can now suppress an active spell buff for one round on a critical hit). However, a number of powers got outright nerfs too, such as Terrifying Howl (ONLY works on creatures shaken by the barbarian) or Clear Mind (have to wait until the end of the next turn to reroll the saving throw rather than doing it as an immediate action). A lot of powers got 'tweaked' as well in entirely unnecessary ways, like Ground-Breaker (needs a full-round action now) or Superstition (doesn't work against supernatural effects). On the whole, I don't understand why they decided to go the stance route with the barbarian. I don't picture them as holding onto certain defined 'forms' of combat, ESPECIALLY when those forms can only be done in the midst of a mind-dulling rage. Hell, it makes even LESS sense when the class is STILL restricted to being non-lawful, which according to Paizo apparently is a dramatic restriction on how a class's mechanic behave (see the ludicrous violation penalties for monk vows). It just doesn't make sense, it's a combat paradigm shift the class didn't need and that puts them at a decisive action-economy disadvantage combat to a style-feat using monk or a simple combat-feat heavy fighter rushing into combat. If you ask me, the barbarian might have made off worse off all the classes in this book simply because A) no major change was truly needed and B) what was done was hardly favorable to them in the grand scheme of things.
It's worth mentioning that most of the ways that they upgraded Rogues did it in such a way as to discourage multi-classing -- or at least to make it no more attractive than it started. When I rebuilt my PFS Rogue -- who had been created with the intention of being a Rogue/Witch/Arcane Trickster -- I found that following my original plan would cause me to miss out on most of the new toys. *And* that I could now do most of the things I wanted within a single-class build. (Thank you, upgraded Minor & Major Magic.)
I bring this up because it is clear from the way that they designed the Unchained Monk that a lot of what they were looking at was changing the way it interacted with multi-classing synergies. If the Unchained Monk is a straight side-grade in results, but done in such away that it requires/encourages less dipping in other classes, I think the Design Team would consider that to be an upgrade. It's as much about simplification as power level. (As also evidenced by the Unchained Barbarian, which was never advertised as anything other than a sidegrade for simplification's sake.)
I'll agree on this. I noticed things seemed shuffles around in (IMO)dip phobia. For me, the better a class is on it's own the more it naturally discourages dipping. With Master of Many styles being a thing, I 100% don't understand the fear of people to come rushing to dip into a unchained monk no matter how fancy it was. Unarmored full BAB dips aren't exactly popular after all.
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Actually, I find the Unchained Barbarian got a lot of subtle but powerful nerfs, several of their best powers like Spell Sunder and Come and Get Me were redone in heavily downgraded versions, reduced damage with two-handed weapons, rage no longer boosting fortitude saves...
Plus I never really understood why it needed redoing at all. I mean, the only "problem" is that Paizo thinks adding four strength is complicated and confusing compared to adding +2 to melee hit and damage.
Admittedly rage adding temp HP change is nice, but from what I've seen that's the only thing that the barbarian gained by being "unchained." (Okay, there are a few new rage powers too, but that hardly requires a class rewrite).
I might be being pessimistic... But seeing the way Paizo handles Monks (and martial classes in general), I think the devs are just not comfortable with how effective Barbarians turned out to be after the APG, so they just used the "it's too complicated" as an excuse to nerf Barbarians and call it "Unchained".
I don't even understand the "Rage is too complicated". I'd never even heard of that being a problem prior to the announcement of PF Unchained... And there are a bajillion different effects that are just as complex, or even more so...
Hell! Wild Shape alone is far more "complicated" than Rage! And yet we didn't get a stealth-nerf "Unchained Druid". Or how about the Brawler's spontaneous feat-chain selection abilities? Or the Hunter's attribute bonuses who are permanent on the AC, but not on the Hunter himself... Unless the animal is dead, of course.
Unchained Barbarian is nothing but pointless. And possibly dishonest as well...
It's worth mentioning that most of the ways that they upgraded Rogues did it in such a way as to discourage multi-classing -- or at least to make it no more attractive than it started. When I rebuilt my PFS Rogue -- who had been created with the intention of being a Rogue/Witch/Arcane Trickster -- I found that following my original plan would cause me to miss out on most of the new toys. *And* that I could now do most of the things I wanted within a single-class build. (Thank you, upgraded Minor & Major Magic.)
On the flip side, Weapon Finesse as a free feat at 1st level is worth a dip for some - not even the Swashbuckler got that. So while you cannot dip the unchained rogue the same way you can still dip it.
I bring this up because it is clear from the way that they designed the Unchained Monk that a lot of what they were looking at was changing the way it interacted with multi-classing synergies. If the Unchained Monk is a straight side-grade in results, but done in such away that it requires/encourages less dipping in other classes, I think the Design Team would consider that to be an upgrade. It's as much about simplification as power level. (As also evidenced by the Unchained Barbarian, which was never advertised as anything other than a sidegrade for simplification's sake.)
Yes, but they didn't make the monk a class you wouldn't dip out of any the less (in fact that weak Will save makes a cleric dip more attractive than before), just one slightly less likely to be dipped into. Unless you want that extra attack, as a militant cleric might using Crusader's Flurry...
So I don't think that they really avoided the dipping "problem" and certainly while the unchained monk is an improvement on the core monk offensively, it still hangs on to the core monk's original combat problems of MAD and lack of enhancement on the unarmed strike, and it nerfs one of their best features (all good saves). I never saw the monk's flurry-of-blows as being anything other than an issue with the iterative attack system, not as an issue in and of itself.
I just can't play this monk, because he's not a monk - he's a Brawler with ki.
On the whole, I don't understand why they decided to go the stance route with the barbarian. I don't picture them as holding onto certain defined 'forms' of combat, ESPECIALLY when those forms can only be done in the midst of a mind-dulling rage.
Yeah, stances really seem out of place as a barbarian-only option. Nothing about how barbarians work says they're far better at adopting combat stances than any other class. Hell, fluff-wise the barbarian is usually seen as having the least refined combat technique.
It'd make a lot more sense as something all martials could pick up.
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Hmm, so the consideration of many here is this perhaps:
Keep the BAB increase, take back the lose good Will save, lower HP to d8, keep updated Flurry of Blows and the Style Strike, take back the higher number of Ki points while leaving much of the rest to how it was with the old. How would that work as an unchained monk?
Perhaps there are a couple of others things that can be kept or removed, but there have been a few that have said they would have homebrew a bit when it comes to the new monk.
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So after reviewing the unchained monk myself and quietly thinking about it for a while, I find myself... overall pleased.
It's not perfect. There are two glaring flaws that really jump out at me. The ki pool is too small, and should have been 1 ki per level instead of 1/2 ki per level. Will save is the other. I know that topic was discussed until I personally was sick unto death of it, but it is something that should be recognized when looking at the class as a whole. With that said, I understand the concerns about making the class too tempting of a dip, and I agree that there would be similar arguments if it had been reflex or fortitude. I just think the arguments wouldn't have been quite so... emphatic. Personally, I would have liked to see an add-on to still mind (or some ability right around 4th level) that added a scaling will save bonus back to the class. The reroll boost to will save at level 18 just outright doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned. I'll never see play at that high of a level.
Having acknolwedged the flaws however, there are some very nice bonuses. The flurry mechanic, for all that it's a more restrictive version of the 3.5 flurry, is a definite improvement over the CRB flurry. And the fact that you can now get strength and a half to damage is REALLY nice.
The style strikes are also really cool. They're inventive, and thematic, and useful, and just... really cool.
Full BAB... thank you thank you thank you. This has been a loooooong time coming.
The ki powers are a mixed bag. There are some inventive stuff in there. I like that the 'choose your own' mechanic of the quingong has been in. I especially like that quingong power is a thing (thanks Mark!). And I like that some of the abilities have had their level restrictions eased to be more approachable. On the other hand, the cost of some of the abilities are too high. The ki pool is too small to support the number of powers that the monk receives. And I really don't like that the speed and defense boost were split off to become their own powers. (Having said that, the changes to speed and defense do intrigue me.)
I am, however, very happy that ki strike was reworked to be a bit better.
I think there were a couple of things the Devs missed that would have helped spice up the flavor of the class. The names of the new powers are pretty bland. Names like "inner peace," "break the stone," and "weaving dodge" call back to the fluff of the class. There are some very monk-like abilities added in as new ki powers, but I would have liked to see more thought added to the names.
One of the new ki powers is exactly what I'm talking about. Ki Hurricane is FANTASTIC mechanically. The name for it is solidly good in terms of flavor. This is an example of the Devs not having to go too far afield for some uber-mystic name, while still producing a mental image that is monk-like at its core. Well done! (Shame about the rediculously high cost, but that's another matter.)
Another natural inclusion would have been the inclusion of style feats in the low level free feats. This just sort of jumps out at you. I'm guessing they weren't added because their addition would make the monk too powerful. I disagree, but it's not too big of an issue for me.
If you take a step back and look at the good things about the monk, the class has a very 'back to basics' feel. Several core mechanics of the monk have been improved to make it overall a much stronger class offensively. To counterbalance this, some of the defenses were scaled down, and I'm not thrilled about it, but I think the offensive gains are worth it. Full BAB, reworked flurry, improved ki strike... this monk has clearly gone back to the temple and worked hard on his fundamentals. Along the way, he picked up some really cool new tricks in the way of Style Strikes and new Ki Powers. Many other things about the class were reworked to balance this, and I think the monk lost some its old flavor as a result, but the strengthened fundamentals combined with some of the new flavor adds up to a net gain.
A lot has been said about how the lack of archetype support weakens the class. That's true... but only if you're playing in a group with a strong degree of system mastery. For newer players and less mastery-focused groups, the monk is a very solid upgrade. The ceiling has been capped, but the floor has also been raised. For some, the ceiling cap is going to matter a lot more. But I think a great many of us are going to appreciate the ease and strength of the basic build a great deal. Taking into account that there will be archetype support to come (we hope, we hope, we hope...) I think this is an improvement.
So my over all impression is... I'm happy. The new class is easier to build, has solid mechanics, has some interesting new flavor, and has some exciting new horizons in the hoped-for archetypes yet to come. Even the glaring weaknesses are incredibly easy to fix in a home game setting. Good will save progression and 1 ki per level instead of 1/2 ki per level. Make sure that a Ring of Ki Mastery is an available item for purchase in your game, and you're done. :)
Hmm, so the consideration of many here is this perhaps:
Keep the BAB increase, take back the lose good Will save, lower HP to d8, keep updated Flurry of Blows and the Style Strike, take back the higher number of Ki points while leaving much of the rest to how it was with the old. How would that work as an unchained monk?Perhaps there are a couple of others things that can be kept or removed, but there have been a few that have said they would have homebrew a bit when it comes to the new monk.
With the way almost all the monks abilities require Ki points, I think the 'new' monk needs/requires either a much bigger Ki pool or an ability to regenerate it. With it 'chained' to constant Ki use, monk 'classic' is actually better at using it's abilities than the 'new' monk.
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It's worth mentioning that most of the ways that they upgraded Rogues did it in such a way as to discourage multi-classing -- or at least to make it no more attractive than it started. When I rebuilt my PFS Rogue -- who had been created with the intention of being a Rogue/Witch/Arcane Trickster -- I found that following my original plan would cause me to miss out on most of the new toys. *And* that I could now do most of the things I wanted within a single-class build. (Thank you, upgraded Minor & Major Magic.)On the flip side, Weapon Finesse as a free feat at 1st level is worth a dip for some - not even the Swashbuckler got that. So while you cannot dip the unchained rogue the same way you can still dip it.
Fair enough. I think I'd rather dip Fighter -- unless I *really* needed the skill points. If I go into Rogue I think I'm committing to at least 3 levels of it to get Dex to Damage and enough sneak attack to be worth having.
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Fair enough. I think I'd rather dip Fighter -- unless I *really* needed the skill points. If I go into Rogue I think I'm committing to at least 3 levels of it to get Dex to Damage and enough sneak attack to be worth having.It's worth mentioning that most of the ways that they upgraded Rogues did it in such a way as to discourage multi-classing -- or at least to make it no more attractive than it started. When I rebuilt my PFS Rogue -- who had been created with the intention of being a Rogue/Witch/Arcane Trickster -- I found that following my original plan would cause me to miss out on most of the new toys. *And* that I could now do most of the things I wanted within a single-class build. (Thank you, upgraded Minor & Major Magic.)On the flip side, Weapon Finesse as a free feat at 1st level is worth a dip for some - not even the Swashbuckler got that. So while you cannot dip the unchained rogue the same way you can still dip it.
And if you're going for three levels, you might as well go four and grab debilitating injury too...
And if you're going for three levels, you might as well go four and grab debilitating injury too...
As well as not losing any BAB in case you decide to go for another class with Medium BAB progression.
I posted an unchained monk/rogue build here:
tell me what you think
In relation to your Monk/Rogue build
I could be totally wrong but don't the claw attacks (from the Tengu) have to be primary attacks.
How did you manage the 4d6 unarmed strike damage? A 1st level Monk's unarmed strike damage is capped at 1d6+ Str bonus or in this case Dex damage
Otherwise a very powerful character.
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I posted an unchained monk/rogue build here:
tell me what you think
In relation to your Monk/Rogue build
I could be totally wrong but don't the claw attacks (from the Tengu) have to be primary attacks.
How did you manage the 4d6 unarmed strike damage? A 1st level Monk's unarmed strike damage is capped at 1d6+ Str bonus or in this case Dex damage
Otherwise a very powerful character.
They are primary claw attacks, but when you use them with Unarmed Strike (or any manufactured weapon for that matter) all natural attacks are taken at a -5.
I just bundled the damage together but if i listed it separately:
1d6 (Unarmed Strike) + 2d6 (Sneak Attack) + 1d6 (Precise Strike)
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Separating it is important, there are circumstances under which Sneak Attack and Precise Strike do not apply.
Of course. Which is why I stated that it was the damage specifically with flanking (inferring sneak attack) and precise strike included. I assumed anyone who read it would understand where the 4d6 is coming from when I said that.
Separating it is important, there are circumstances under which Sneak Attack and Precise Strike do not apply.Of course. Which is why I stated that it was the damage specifically with flanking (inferring sneak attack) and precise strike included. I assumed anyone who read it would understand where the 4d6 is coming from when I said that.
Yeah it doesn't say it in the Tengus description, but as general rule primary do become secondary. So okay good.
I had a quick look, missed the flanking header, sorry about that.
Kyrt-Ryder is correct though, sneak attack and precise strike are very situational. I have a Slayer in my party and in 6 months of playing she got to use Precise Strike once. DPR and maximum damage gives you a useful snapshot, but playing is a totally different story.
I would definitely have Precise Strike as an add-on for damage calculation.
From my experience ranged weapons can grant you a sneak attack (no opportunity for flanking too far to reach them, much safer option too) and 2d6 +weapon damage is nothing to scoff at. Your character has the Dex to be good at it.
The movement in combat hurts this build, you will probably be doing 1d6+11 (14 damage, still ok) most of the time. Having another player with battlefield control would help this type of character considerably.
Nice AC...wait...very nice AC (and Deflect arrows) to protect you from arrow fire. What is this characters AC and hp? Now these you would want to be high as it's a full attack melee character.