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Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:24 pm

10 people marked this as a favorite.

#### (1) Introduction: Testing the Unchained Monk ####

Ahoy, fellow Pathfinders!

So I picked up Unchained on Wednesday, and all together I quite like the book. There’s a lot of very good material in there that I’m excited to implement in my home game (e.g., automatic bonus progression, background skills, stamina, variant multiclassing). I’m really very happy with most of what I’m seeing, at least on a first pass.

This purpose of this thread is to help me work out my thoughts on one part of the book that has excited a bit of forum controversy since the earliest previews—the Unchained Monk. I want to figure out what I think about the class, so I’m posting this thread to do my thinking out loud and together with anyone who’s interested in having that conversation.

I approach the Unchained Monk with a bit of an unusual perspective, or at least one that seems to be a bit rare in the arguments about the class that are going on in the dedicated thread. I’ve never actually learned the Core Monk! It’s a complicated class and I just hadn’t got around to it by the time I heard about Unchained. So while I was always aware that the Monk had a rather poor reputation, I never really tried it out to feel that pain myself.

And now that I have the Unchained Monk in-hand, I’d like to work through it pretty carefully to see how I feel about it. The test: Will the Unchained Monk successfully fulfill the role of a martial arts melee combatant in a Pathfinder party?

In answering that question, it works out as a benefit that I’m unfamiliar with the Core Monk and the debates around that class. Being mostly without preconceptions about the Pathfinder Monk, I hope to be able to evaluate the Unchained Monk without pre-judgments and with fresh eyes.

What I’ll be doing here is “thinking out loud,” recording my thought process as I put together a couple basic and straightforward Unchained Monk builds and as I evaluate the class on the basis of these builds. I’m making this record mostly for my own sake, to help me clarify my thoughts on the class, but I hope it might also help the ongoing forum conversation on the Unchained Monk.

In the posts that follow, I put together two basic, straightforward, and flexible Unchained Monk builds, one focusing on unarmed strikes (Unarmed Oona) and the other focusing on using a weapon (Temple Sword Tina). I then then compared the performance of these two builds to my previously-assembled <Reference: Basic Fighter Builds> as a reasonable benchmark.

Reviewing my findings, I’m led to conclude that the Unchained Monk is a successful class, and it may be fair to say (if my builds and numbers are approximately correct) that it is even a very successful class

Before I get into the builds, I will first articulate the principles guiding my builds and evaluations.

Table of Contents:

<#### (1) Introduction: Testing the Unchained Monk ####>
<#### (2) Guiding Principle: A Basic Benchmark ####>
<#### (3) Build Guidelines ####>
<#### (4) Specific Test Employed ####>
<#### (5) Equipment Guidelines ####>
<#### (6.a.1) Unarmed Oona Build ####>
<#### (6.a.2) Unarmed Oona Build: Comment ####>
<#### (6.b.1) Unarmed Oona Equipment: Initial Read-Through ####>
<#### (6.b.2) Unarmed Oona Equipment: Purchases ####>
<#### (6.c.1) Unarmed Oona Stats: Lvl 02 ####>
<#### (6.c.2) Unarmed Oona Stats: Lvl 05 ####>
<#### (6.c.3) Unarmed Oona Stats: Lvl 08 ####>
<#### (6.c.4) Unarmed Oona Stats: Lvl 11 ####>
<#### (6.d.1) Unarmed Oona Results: Lvl 02 ####>
<#### (6.d.2) Unarmed Oona Results: Lvl 05 ####>
<#### (6.d.3) Unarmed Oona Results: Lvl 08 ####>
<#### (6.d.4) Unarmed Oona Results: Lvl 11 ####>
<#### (7.a) Temple Sword Tina Build ####>
<#### (7.b) Temple Sword Tina Equipment ####>
<#### (7.c.1) Temple Sword Tina Stats: Lvl 02 ####>
<#### (7.c.2) Temple Sword Tina Stats: Lvl 05 ####>
<#### (7.c.3) Temple Sword Tina Stats: Lvl 08 ####>
<#### (7.c.4) Temple Sword Tina Stats: Lvl 11 ####>
<#### (7.d.1) Temple Sword Tina Results: Lvl 02 ####>
<#### (7.d.2) Temple Sword Tina Results: Lvl 05 ####>
<#### (7.d.3) Temple Sword Tina Results: Lvl 08 ####>
<#### (7.d.4) Temple Sword Tina Results: Lvl 11 ####>
<#### (8) Summary of Findings ####>
<#### (9) Evaluation and Concluding Remarks ####>
<#### (10) Table of Contents ####>

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:24 pm

1 person marked this as a favorite.

#### (2) Guiding Principle: A Basic Benchmark ####

This post lays out the principles guiding my builds and by which I will judge whether the Unchained Monk is a successful class.

I am, of course, aware that some folks will not share my principles and criteria. That’s fine! I accept that my method and my final judgment won’t be universally accepted. I just want to be clear (for my own sake and for the sake of the conversation) about just what I’m doing here.

## Primary Principle: Does The Basic Build Succeed? ##

I believe that a class is successful if and only if a relatively new or inexperienced player would be able to pick the class up, put together an obvious or straightforward build, and find that the build basically succeeds at fulfilling the promise of the class in play. This because we’re looking for a reasonable basic benchmark test of a class.

I think that a class is not successful if it can only fulfill the promise of the class by means of fancy optimizing or reliance on obscure abilities or equipment out of a large number of sourcebooks. If the basic build fails, I take the class itself to be a failure, regardless of whether a more-complex build could succeed at filling the role.

I realize that this primary principle is rather in tension with the ever-complexifying nature and tendency of the Pathfinder ruleset. I accept that. It’s not an aspect of Pathfinder that I love (I’d strongly prefer a fundamentally simpler system), but that’s the way the game is—which may lead some readers to wonder why I should evaluate a class by looking at a basic and obvious build. So long as a class can be made to work well, why should we judge it a failure just on the grounds that it takes some fancy tricks to make it work well? Shouldn’t we expect a Pathfinder character to use some fancy tricks? Isn’t it perfectly in line with the nature of the game to require a significant level of system mastery from a player? If the basic build is unsuccessful, maybe the problem isn’t the class, but the build itself and its basic character, out of keeping with the nature of this demanding game.

There are at least two good answers to this concern. First (1), accessibility to new players is very important. If I can’t hand a class to an inexperienced player and expect him to find success with it, then it seems to me that it would be very reasonable to assess the class as a failure or as falling short of the ideal of class design. This is especially true insofar as the Monk is supposed to be a core (if no longer Core Rulebook) class, one that lives at the heart of the basic game.

Second (2), we should assess a class by its basic or obvious build for reasons of flexibility—we’re looking for a basic benchmark, not the one true optimal build. If a class needs every character option to be just so in order to produce at a basically-competent character, then it would seem that there’s only one “correct” build for the entire class! — And that doesn’t seem ideal. Any alternate build would be in constant danger of falling below a “minimal standard of effectiveness” in order to pick up whatever interesting option or theme it might be going for. So I take it that we should look at the basic, flexible build as a useful benchmark for assessing a class and leave aside consideration of builds that are fully optimized.

(And, of course, if you have optimizing tendencies, then one benefit of using a basic benchmark as our standard is that if the class is basically-competent with a straightforward build, it will be even better once you set to optimizing. It’s usually easy enough to see where and how we could raise the numbers if we wanted to.)

So much for my primary principle here. Next up, specific guidelines regarding my build choices.

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:25 pm

#### (3) Build Guidelines ####

For the reasons articulated above, I’m aiming for an obvious or straightforward build, a reasonable basic benchmark test. This goal suggests some reasonable guidelines to impose on the build itself. To wit,

1. PFS Rules. Most of my own play is in PFS, but more to the point, the PFS rules provide a useful standardized ruleset for the sake of comparing like cases, which is the target here. It would be inappropriate to judge the class a success or failure if the evaluation is significantly influenced by a non-standard rule or set of rules particular to some specific game.

2. “Core”-like Options Only. A standard benchmark, for all the reasons we’ve been discussing, should stick to “core”-like material. I would prefer if we could stick strictly to PFS Core rules (Core Rulebook + Basic Traits), but unfortunately this isn’t quite appropriate for the Unchained Monk.

First, the Qinngong powers from Ultimate Magic are built into the heart of the Unchained Monk, so we may appropriately draw on those (but we should not rely on any Qinngong powers published in supplement).

Second, it seems fair to count the Style feats in Ultimate Combat as a pretty “core” part of the Monk class, at least for unarmed builds. (As with Qinggong powers, I won’t look at Style feats beyond this “core” expression of the option.) This is one reasons I was surprised to see that the Unchained Monk does not include Style feats as bonus feat options. We’ll handle this under the “flexibility” principle when we get to the builds themselves.

Third, the Unchained Monk is automatically proficient with “any weapon with the monk special weapon quality,” it seems fair to draw on at least a basic and straightforward monk-weapon option for evaluating an armed build. Since the the Temple Sword is a fine obvious choice and since the iconic Monk Sajan uses one, we’ll stick to that for any weapon.

These features of the Unchained Monk do require a bit of a concession to complexity, but we’ll keep it as “core” in spirit as possible. Other than these specific exceptions, all character options will be drawn from the Core Rulebook and the Basic Traits, as PFS Core rules (including equipment selection, for the same sort of reason: you shouldn’t need to do a deep dive into Ultimate Equipment—much less the companion lines—to make a class succeed at its basic role).

3a. Simple Builds. Since I’m looking for a simple and standard benchmark test, I figure we should choose the most straightforward and basic character options. But we should also leave a fair amount of flexibility in the build, as discussed above: If a class needs every character option to be just so in order to produce at a basically-competent character, then it would seem that there’s only one “correct” build for the entire class! — And that doesn’t seem ideal. Any alternate build would be in constant danger of falling below a “minimal standard of effectiveness” in order to pick up whatever interesting option or theme it might be going for. So I take it that we should look at the basic, flexible build as a useful benchmark for assessing a class and leave aside consideration of builds that are fully optimized.

So I’ll be picking the most straightforward options. E.g., I’ll stick to a simple Str > Wis > Dex build rather than attempting to shoot for some feat- or equipment-intensive Dex-based build.

3b. Flexible Builds. We’ll account for the flexibility requirement by making sure the builds have several “placeholder” feats and ki powers and style strikes that they don’t rely on for their numbers. These should be able to be specified in whatever way without impacting the basic effectiveness of the build. The corollary here is that we should check the numbers with and without Style feats active. E.g., I’d probably pick up Dragon style for an unarmed build, but we should check the numbers without the style active, since it would be a serious mark against the class if the numbers would be unacceptably low with any other style (or with no style at all) such that an unarmed Unchained Monk would only work with one particular style.

This all also meets the “accessibility” goal, helping show whether the class has room for newer players to “mess up” their choices a bit from an optimization standpoint and still do alright. It would be a failure of the class were it to fail this flexibility and accessibility goal.

4. Levels 1–11. PFS levels, the levels of most play. Plus, I’m putting in enough effort here I figure it’s excusable to limit it to these levels at least for now. If I want to expand on the project later I might go out to level 17 or so to capture the range of most APs.

5. Standard Array. The Elite array adjusted to 20 point-buy: 16/14/14/12/10/8. Simple and standard.

6. Multiple Core Races. We should eyeball the build with several different Core races. If the Unchained Monk only works as a Human, say, it shouldn’t be counted a success. I take it that the Half-Elf is the optimal choice, but I’ll probably build with Human, Dwarf, and Halfling. Half-Elf and Half-Orc will be basically the same as the Human build, Elf can be sort of triangulated from the three, and Gnome is just a painfully poor choice so we won’t bother. (Note: I did not end up actually building out with multiple races. I just built the Human. But since the Basic Fighter Builds that I'm comparing to are also Human melee types, varying the race of our Unchained Monk will have approximately the same effect as varying the race of our Basic Fighter benchmark. So it's a wash. Personally, I'm looking forward to playing a Dwarven Monk.)

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:25 pm

#### (4) Specific Test Employed ####

To evaluate the Unchained Monk, we’ll put together a couple builds along the above guidelines and then compare them to my <Reference: Basic Fighter Builds> that I put together for just this sort of work.

We’ll test at levels 2/5/8/11 v. CR+2 monster. Four comparison points, ignoring the highly-variable level 1 and split evenly across the rest. Testing against a tougher challenge since we want to be able to hold our own in more serious battles—we want to be good for more than just beating up mooks. This should be a good enough test.

See the Fighter thread for the specifics of those builds. To orient us from the start, the <Summary of Findings> from the Fighter test. The number ranges represent a roughly-non-optimized CRB longsword & shield Fighter to a roughly-optimized CRB falchion Fighter:

Joe M. wrote:

#### (7) Summary of Findings ####

# Lvl 02 v. CR 04 #
Fort/Ref/Will 55%, 40%, 50% success
DPR = 6.4–8.9 (16%–22.3%)

# Lvl 05 v. CR 07 #
Fort, Ref, Will = 55%, 40%, 50% success
DPR = 11.6–15.2 (13.7%–17.9%)

# Lvl 08 v. CR 10 #
Fort, Ref, Will = 60%, 40%, 50% success
DPR = 22.5–34.6 (17.3–26.6%)

# Lvl 11 v. CR 13 #
Fort, Ref, Will = 60%, 40%, 50% success
DPR = 47–65.3 (26.1%–36.3%)

Of course we should keep in mind that the Monk will (hopefully) have a lot more interesting options than the basic toe-to-toe, beat-em-down Fighter. So we may have to give the Monk points in that category even if it falls a bit short in others.

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:25 pm

#### (5) Equipment Guidelines ####

We need some guidelines for equipment purchases. The Gamemastering chapter of the CRB gives the following guidelines for starting above 1st level:

25% Weapons
25% Armor and Protective Devices
25% Other Magic Items
15% Consumables
10% Ordinary Gear and Coins

That strikes me as a bit unrealistic, especially if we’re assuming PFS with the assistance of prestige purchases for things like raise dead or a wand of cure light wounds. But we need some sort of standard. I propose the following rough guidelines:

50% Offense
30% Protection
10% Other Magic Gear
10% Miscellany (taken off the top)

Given the WBL, that breaks down as:

Lvl 02 — 01,000 gp
00,500 … Offense
00,300 … Protection
00,100 … Other Magic Gear
00,100 … Misc. (unavailable)

Lvl 05 — 10,500 gp
05,250 … Offense
03,150 … Protection
01,050 … Other Magic Gear
01,050 … Misc. (unavailable)

Lvl 08 — 33,000 gp
16,500 … Offense
09,900 … Protection
03,300 … Other Magic Gear
03,300 … Misc. (unavailable)

Lvl 11 — 82,000 gp
41,000 … Offense
24,600 … Protection
08,200 … Other Magic Gear
08,200 … Misc. (unavailable)

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:25 pm

#### (6.a.1) Unarmed Oona Build ####

Human Unarmed Unchained Monk

Let’s call her Unarmed Oona. We’ll get to Temple Sword Tina below!

Str 18* Dex 14 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 8

01 … Indomitable Faith, Placeholder; Power Attack, Iron Will, (b) Dodge
02 … (b) Placeholder
03 … Weapon Focus (unarmed)
04 … +1 Str [= 19]; (k) Barkskin
05 … Placeholder, (ss) Flying Kick
06 … (b) Mobility, (k) Placeholder
07 … Placeholder
08 … +1 Str [= 20]; (k) Placeholder
09 … Placeholder; (ss) Placeholder
10 … (b) Improved Critical (unarmed); (k) Placeholder
11 … Critical Focus

The Placeholder options can be filled out as you like. Remember that a major goal of the build is flexibility–I’m curious how this framework succeeds regardless of how those Placeholders are filled out. The main offense- and defense-boosters that might go in those places will be Style feats, I figure.

Here’s a complete specification, that I’ll use for our statblocks:

01 … Indomitable Faith, Dangerously Curious; Power Attack, Iron Will, (b) Dodge
02 … (b) Combat Reflexes
03 … Weapon Focus (unarmed)
04 … +1 Str [= 19]; (k) Barkskin
05 … Dragon Style, (ss) Flying Kick
06 … (b) Mobility, (k) High Jump
07 … Dragon Ferocity
08 … +1 Str [= 20]; (k) Wind Jump
09 … Spring Attack; (ss) Foot Stomp
10 … (b) Improved Critical (unarmed); (k) Insightful Wisdom
11 … Critical Focus

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:25 pm

#### (6.a.2) Unarmed Oona Build: Comment ####

01 … Indomitable Faith, Dangerously Curious. I imagine the first is pretty necessary, since I’m a martial with a low base Will save. Dangerously Curious for wand of mage armor, but for a less-optimal or more party-reliant build, any trait will do. I think it’s fair in any case to figure that you’ll be able to figure some way to get mage armor, it’s such an obvious Core choice for a Monk.

01 … Power Attack, Iron Will, (b) Dodge. We’ll have to have Power Attack eventually. Might as well grab it early. The Unchained Monk has the added bonus that with multiple attacks from level 1 at no accuracy penalty, the -1 from Power Attack is even more insignificant. Iron Will, gotta keep that Will save up. I wonder if, when we cash out the numbers, it won’t really be strictly necessary, but I’m paranoid about Will saves after having my first Fighter go down bad to one (I don’t remember exactly what happened, but the trauma and the reflexive choice of Iron Will still linger. Dodge is the obvious choice between the bonus feats. I’m guessing I may be struggling to keep the AC up, and honestly this list of bonus feats is pretty uninspiring. There’s not a lot else that I’m tempted to grab.

02 … (b) Combat Reflexes. Or Deflect Arrows, I guess. Either’s fine and it’s not like there are many other options calling out to be selected.

03 … Weapon Focus (unarmed). Honestly, having specified Dragon Style I’d probably rather grab that now and delay Weapon Focus, useful but boring-er, till later. But my first instinct is good enough for this first test.

04 … +1 Str [= 19]; (k) Barkskin. Strength, obvi. We’re a melee combatant here. And as for Barkskin, what’s not to love? This is the obvious choice for our first ki power.

05 … Dragon Style. Dragon Style is the most straightforward boost to unarmed offense, so we’ll have to run the numbers without the style activated first to make sure it isn’t necessary to achieve decent damage output (i.e., would you be okay going with a different style, or would that be such a terrible mathematical choice that it’s a trap option?).

05 … (ss) Flying Kick. Let’s talk about Flying Kick. I mean, this Style Strike is just awesome. I can’t wait to have such a tactically-mobile melee combatant. And you can do this all day every day. This means that you’ll have a significantly higher rate of full-attacks than pretty much any other melee type, and we should keep that in mind when looking at our numbers. The only apparent downside is that the movement provokes, but that’s standard and just gives you a good reason to pick up Mobility. But by level 6 you’ll be throwing out 3 attacks every round while moving up to 20 feet as a non-action, all day every day. I mean, come on. This is great.

Flying Kick wrote:

The monk leaps through the air to strike a foe with a kick. Before the attack, the monk can move a distance equal to his fast movement bonus. This movement is made as part of the monk’s flurry of blows attack and does not require an additional action. At the end of this movement, the monk must make an attack against an adjacent foe. This movement may be between attacks. This movement provokes an attack of opportunity as normal. The attack made after the movement must be a kick.

06 … (b) Mobility. Because Flying Kick. Not really an option.

06 … (k) High Jump. Really pick any you like, but I’m in a mobile mood right now so I’m looking forward to Wind Jump (even though I’m not quite sure how that one’s supposed to work).

07 … Dragon Ferocity. Sweet sweet unarmed damage. Repeat caution from above: we need to run the numbers without Dragon first to make sure we could build with another style without falling below minimal effectiveness. Then we’ll run Dragon and see what sort of a boost we’re getting from it.

08 … +1 Str [= 20]; (k) Wind Jump. Strength, naturally. Wind Jump — Whee! I’m guessing you need Spring Attack to really make Wind Jump work as a counter-flyer combat option, but that’s fine. Who doesn’t want to flip 50 feet in the air, punch a dragon unconscious, and then float gracefully to land? And all without the help of your Wizard buddy. Boom! Plus, with Flying Kick this makes the whole Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack chain a really cool and interesting part of a build for once. The move-action activate is my only gripe here. It would be pretty sweet to be able to kick off Wind Jump with a swift so you could burst into the air and attack in a single round rather than having a ramp-up round.

09 … Spring Attack; (ss) Foot Stomp. If I were being “responsible” with this build, I’d probably find room for Toughness somewhere. But I can’t resist Spring Attack with Wind Jump (and, looking forward, in case it’ll work with One Touch … though very sadly, they look incompatible as currently reason for the reason Vital Strike + Spring Attack are incompatible as written).

09 … (ss) Foot Stomp. Foot Stomp is an interesting decision to make. It isn’t Elbow Smash which is the most obvious offense-boost, but going by my flexibility ”you shouldn’t have to” principle, let’s call the level 5 choice of Flying Kick our “mandatory” Style Strike choice and see how the numbers come out leaving one of our Style Strikes open and flexible. And Foot Stomp is going to be very very useful in the right circumstances. No-save battlefield control is always appreciated! Leg Sweep is a pretty compelling option, too, since you can trip on your first attack and then clobber the prone monster. But I’ll go with Foot Stomp here since it doesn’t have any chance of failure and for the sake of simplicity. Either Elbow Smash or Leg Sweep can be expected to boost our offense numbers, though, and we should remember that in case we come in a bit low.

10 … (b) Improved Critical (unarmed); (k) Insightful Wisdom. Can’t avoid Improved Crit. As for Insightful Wisdom, I’m always a big fan of giving allies key rerolls. Rescuing a failed save can change the course of the battle. Downsides here are the steep ki cost and the restriction that it must be “another” ally, so you can’t save yourself. But even so, definitely a good option. There are plenty of other interesting ki powers if you’d rather.

But let me pause here to register my serious disappointment that the only built-in ki regeneration mechanic, ki leech, is an [evil] ability. That makes it unusable as a standard part of a Monk build (the class shouldn’t get any credit for an [evil] ability, since that won’t work for many games and it won’t fit with many character concepts). I had a long rant on that typed out but I’ll let it pass and just say that, at least as a first impression, that strikes me as some serious b&+$&+@#. Now, it may be the case that the tight ki budget isn’t a big problem in actual play but at least when first looking at building the class, it’s just disappointing—get all excited about these cool abilities and then realize that you’ll hardly ever use them! For example, at level 10 we’ll probably have a ki pool of about 7-8 ki points. Assume we burn 3 keeping barkskin up through the adventuring day. Keep 2 in reserve for a clutch Insightful Wisdom just in case, you’ve now only got 2-3 to use freely. With no regeneration mechanic, that’s about at the level that I’d never spend ki just for fun, and that’s disappointing for such a big part of the flavor of the class. :-/

11 … Critical Focus. Not necessary, as I figured it would be when I didn’t realize ki leech was evil, but still a pretty helpful boost to any melee character.

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:26 pm

#### (6.b.1) Unarmed Oona Equipment: Initial Read-Through ####

Okay, let’s pick out some equipment for Oona. Remember, CRB only! I haven’t played a Monk before, so going in, I figure I’ll need … amulet of mighty fists +X, cloak of resistance +X, ring of deflection +X. I probably won’t bother with boots of speed unless I’ve got just piles of extra gold (which somehow I doubt will be the case). This mostly for simplicity. I didn’t grab the boots on my basic Fighter builds so I won’t grab them here. Easier to compare apples to apples. (Also, it’s probably not fair to count 10 rounds a day as standard dpr.) Of course, we could always shuffle the budget around to grab them if necessary.

If there are any specialized Monk items in the CRB, I don’t know about them yet, so let me grab out my CRB and give it a skim. Typing out loud here.

Ring of feather falling. Cheap and situationally very handy (especially since I won’t be getting Slow Fall with this guy). I’ll grab it if I have the gold.

What about ring of force shield? That looks useful! … But damn, that probably counts as “using a shield” and would lose me flurry. Strike that.

Ring of freedom of movement. Always great, too pricey for the level range I’m looking at.

Ring of protection +X. Yup.

Ring of sustenance. A personal favorite. But it’s either this or feather falling. Probably prefer feather falling.

Metamagic rod (extend). I wish, but alas my barkskin is an SLA and this won’t help it. Maybe if I knew more about the party I’d grab this to have friends cast buffs on me? But not for this test at least.

Amulet of Mighty Fists +X. That’s where my money’s going. Though it looks like I have wonky prices in this printing of the CRB. Glad they brought those down a little bit at least.

Belt of ??? +X. Should I go Incredible Strength or Physical Might? Probably default to Strength only and reconsider if my AC comes in too low.

Boots of Speed. Not for now.

Bracers of Armor. 16,000 gp for a constant +4? Ugh. I’ll stick to finding mage armor one way or another. UMD all the way!

Cloak of Resistance +X. Can’t say no.

Eyes of the Eagle. Excellent adventuring gear.

Handy Haversack. Every Adventurer Should Have One! (TM)

Headband of Inspired Wisdom +X. Yep yep.

Ioun Stone (dusty rose prism). +1 AC for 5,000 gp. Necessary.

Monk’s Robe. 13,000 gp for +1/+2 AC and a little bit of extra damage. Nice, but will I have the budget for it? Probably worth it over, say, upgrading one of the stat-boosting items from +2 to +4? … This might count as my first good find here.

Golembane Scarab. Situationally quite useful. Not going to spend the cash on it, though, since how often do you really fight golems? (He said, self-jinxingly.) In any case, not for this benchmark build.

## Review: ##

* Amulet of Mighty Fists +X (varies)
* Belt of Giant Strength +X (varies)
* Cloak of Resistance +X (varies)
* Headband of Inspired Wisdom +X (varies)
* Ring of Protection +X (varies)

* Ioun Stone (Dusty Rose Prism) (5,000 gp)
* Monk’s Robe (13,000 gp)

* Eyes of the Eagle (2,500 gp)
* Handy Haversack (2,000 gp)
* Pearl of Power Lvl 1 (1,000 gp)

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:26 pm

#### (6.b.2) Unarmed Oona Equipment: Purchases ####

Lvl 02 — 01,000 gp
00,500 … Offense
00,300 … Protection
00,100 … Other Magic Gear
00,100 … Misc. (unavailable)

01,000 … Misc.

Lvl 05 — 10,500 gp
05,250 … Offense
03,150 … Protection
01,050 … Other Magic Gear
01,050 … Misc. (unavailable)

04,000 … Belt of Giant Strength +2
01,000 … Cloak of Resistance +1
04,000 … Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2
01,500 … Misc.

Lvl 08 — 33,000 gp
16,500 … Offense
09,900 … Protection
03,300 … Other Magic Gear
03,300 … Misc. (unavailable)

04,000 … Amulet of Mighty Fists +1
04,000 … Belt of Giant Strength +2
13,000 … Monk’s Robe
04,000 … Cloak of Resistance +2
04,000 … Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2
02,000 … Handy Haversack
02,000 … Misc.

Lvl 11 — 82,000 gp
41,000 … Offense
24,600 … Protection
08,200 … Other Magic Gear
08,200 … Misc. (unavailable)

16,000 … Amulet of Mighty Fists +2
16,000 … Belt of Giant Strength +4
13,000 … Monk’s Robe
09,000 … Cloak of Resistance +3
04,000 … Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2
02,000 … Ring of Protection +1
05,000 … Ioun Stone (Dusty Rose Prism)
02,500 … Eyes of the Eagle
02,000 … Handy Haversack
02,200 … Ring of Feather Falling
10,300 … Misc.

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:26 pm

#### (6.c.1) Unarmed Oona Stats: Lvl 02 ####

Human Monk 2
Init +2; Sense Perception +7

## DEFENSE ##
AC 19 (+4 mage armor, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, +1 dodge)
HP 20 (2d10+2+2)
Fort [3] +4, Ref [3] +5, Will [0+3] +5; Special evasion

## OFFENSE ##
Speed 30 ft.
Melee (No Style) +5/+5 (1d6+6/x2)
Atk = +2 bab, +4 Str, -1 pwr atk
Dmg = +4 Str, +2 pwr atk
Special flurry of blows (+1), stunning fist (2/d, DC 13)

## STATISTICS ##
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 8
BAB +2
Feats Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Iron Will, Power Attack [-1/+2]
Skills Acrobatics [2] +7, Climb [1] +8, Perception [2] +7, Profession (stunt double) [1] +6, Sense Motive [1] +6, Swim [1] +8, UMD [2] +5
Traits Dangerously Curious, Indomitable Faith
Race Traits Bonus feat, skilled
Class Abilities bonus feats [x2], evasion, flurry of blows (+1), stunning fist (2/d, DC 13); AC bonus (+0), fast movement (—), unarmed strike (1d6)

## EQUIPMENT ##
Offense —; Defense —; Other —; Cash 1,000 gp

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:26 pm

#### (6.c.2) Unarmed Oona Stats: Lvl 05 ####

Human Monk 5
Init +2; Sense Perception +11

## DEFENSE ##
AC 23 (+4 mage armor, +1 monk, +2 Dex, +3 Wis, +1 dodge, +2 nat)
HP 44 (5d10+5+5)
Fort [4] +6, Ref [4] +7, Will [1+3] +8; Special +2 v. ench., Dragon Style (+2 v. sleep, paralysis, stun), evasion; cloak +1
Immune disease

## OFFENSE ##
Speed 40 ft.; Special Ignore difficult terrain when charge, run, withdraw; can charge through allies
Melee (No Style) +9/+9 (1d8+9/x2)
Atk = +5 bab, +5 Str, +1 foc, -2 pwr atk
Dmg = +5 Str, +4 pwr atk
Dragon Style +9/+9 (1d8+11, 1d8+9/x2)
Dmg = +7/+5 Str …
Style Strikes Flying Kick (10 ft.)
Special dragon style, flurry of blows (+1), stunning fist (5/d, DC 15)

## KI POWERS (5 ki points) ##
barkskin [+2, 50 min] (1)

## STATISTICS ##
Str 21* Dex 14 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 16* Cha 8
BAB +5
Feats Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Dragon Style, Iron Will, Power Attack [-2/+4], Weapon Focus (unarmed)
Ki Powers barkskin (1)
Style Strikes Flying Kick
Skills Acrobatics [5] +10, Climb [1] +9, Escape Artist [1] +6, Knowledge (history) [1] +4, Knowledge (religion) [1] +4, Perception [5] +11, Profession (stunt double) [1] +7, Ride [1] +6, Sense Motive [2] +8, Stealth [1] +6, Swim [1] +9, UMD [5] +8
Traits Dangerously Curious, Indomitable Faith
Race Traits Bonus feat, skilled
Class Abilities bonus feats [x2], evasion, flurry of blows (+1), ki powers [x1], ki strike (magic), purity of body, still mind, stunning fist (5/d, DC 15); AC bonus (+1), fast movement (+10 ft.), ki pool (5 points), style strike [x1] (1/rd), unarmed strike (magic; 1d8)

## EQUIPMENT ##
Offense Belt of Giant Strength +2; Defense Cloak of Resistance +1, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2; Cash 1,500 gp

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:27 pm

#### (6.c.3) Unarmed Oona Stats: Lvl 08 ####

Human Monk 8
Init +2; Sense Perception +14

## DEFENSE ##
AC 26 (+4 mage armor, +3 monk, +2 Dex, +3 Wis, +1 dodge, +3 nat); Special Mobility
HP 68 (8d10+8+8)
Fort [6] +9, Ref [6] +10, Will [2+3] +10; Special +2 v. ench., Dragon Style (+2 v. sleep, paralysis, stun), evasion; cloak +2
Immune disease

## OFFENSE ##
Speed 50 ft.; Special Ignore difficult terrain when charge, run, withdraw; can charge through allies
Melee (No Style) +13/+13/+8 (2d6+13/x2)
Atk = +8 bab, +6 Str, +1 enh, +1 foc, -3 pwr atk
Dmg = +6 Str, +1 enh, +6 pwr atk
Dragon Style +13/+13/+8 (2d6+19, 2d6+16/x2 plus shaken 1d4+6)
Dmg = +12/+9 Str …
Style Strikes Flying Kick (20 ft.)
Special dragon style, flurry of blows (+1), stunning fist (9/d, DC 17)

## KI POWERS (7 ki points) ##
barkskin [+3, 80 min] (1), high jump (–/+1), wind jump (1)

## STATISTICS ##
Str 22* Dex 14 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 16* Cha 8
BAB +8/+3
Feats Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Dragon Ferocity, Dragon Style, Iron Will, Mobility, Power Attack [-3/+6], Weapon Focus (unarmed)
Ki Powers barkskin (1), high jump (–/1), wind jump (1)
Style Strikes Flying Kick
Skills Acrobatics [8] +13 (high jump), Climb [1] +10, Escape Artist [1] +6, Fly [2] +4, Knowledge (history) [1] +4, Knowledge (religion) [1] +4, Perception [8] +14, Profession (stunt double) [1] +7, Ride [1] +6, Sense Motive [6] +12, Stealth [1] +6, Swim [1] +10, UMD [8] +11
Traits Dangerously Curious, Indomitable Faith
Race Traits Bonus feat, skilled
Class Abilities bonus feats [x3], evasion, flurry of blows (+1), ki powers [x3], ki strike (cold iron/silver), purity of body, still mind, stunning fist (9/d*, DC 17); AC bonus (+3), fast movement (+20 ft.), ki pool (7 points), style strike [x1] (1/rd), unarmed strike (cold iron/silver; 2d6)

## EQUIPMENT ##
Offense Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, Belt of Giant Strength +2, Monk’s Robe; Defense Cloak of Resistance +2, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2; Other Handy Haversack; Cash 2,000 gp

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:27 pm

#### (6.c.4) Unarmed Oona Stats: Lvl 11 ####

Human Monk 11
Init +2; Sense Perception +22

## DEFENSE ##
AC 30 (+4 mage armor, +4 monk, +2 Dex, +3 Wis, +1 dodge, +4 nat, +1 defl, +1 insight); Special Mobility
HP 92 (11d10+11+11)
Fort [7] +11, Ref [7] +12, Will [3+3] +12; Special +2 v. ench., Dragon Style (+2 v. sleep, paralysis, stun), improved evasion; cloak +3
Immune disease

## OFFENSE ##
Speed 60 ft.; Special Ignore difficult terrain when charge, run, withdraw; can charge through allies
Melee (No Style) +18/+18/+18/+13/+8 (2d8+15/19-20x2 with Critical Focus)
Atk = +11 bab, +7 Str, +2 enh, +1 foc, -3 pwr atk
Dmg = +7 Str, +2 enh, +6 pwr atk
Dragon Style +18/+18/+18/+13/+8 (2d8+21, 2d8+18/19-20x2 plus shaken 1d4+7, Critical Focus)
Dmg = +13/+10 Str …
Style Strikes Flying Kick (30 ft.), Foot Stomp
Special dragon style (dragon ferocity), flurry of blows (+2), stunning fist (12/d, DC 18)

## KI POWERS (8 ki points) ##
barkskin [+4, 110 min] (1), high jump (–/1), insightful wisdom (2), wind jump (1)

## STATISTICS ##
Str 24* Dex 14 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 16* Cha 8
BAB +11/+6/+1
Feats Combat Reflexes, Critical Focus, Dodge, Dragon Ferocity, Dragon Style, Improved Critical (unarmed), Iron Will, Mobility, Power Attack [-3/+6], Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (unarmed)
Ki Powers barkskin (1), high jump (–/1), insightful wisdom (2), wind jump (1)
Style Strikes Flying Kick, Foot Stomp
Skills Acrobatics [11] +16 (high jump), Climb [1] +11, Escape Artist [1] +6, Fly [8] +10, Knowledge (history) [1] +4, Knowledge (religion) [1] +4, Perception [11] +22*, Profession (stunt double) [1] +7, Ride [1] +6, Sense Motive [6] +12, Stealth [1] +6, Swim [1] +11, UMD [11] +14; Special high jump
Traits Dangerously Curious, Indomitable Faith
Race Traits Bonus feat, skilled
Class Abilities bonus feats [x4], evasion (improved), flurry of blows (+2), ki powers [x4], ki strike (lawful), still mind, stunning fist (12/d*, DC 18); AC bonus (+4*), fast movement (+30 ft.), ki pool (8 points), style strike [x2] (1/rd), unarmed strike (lawful; 2d8*)

## EQUIPMENT ##
Offense Amulet of Mighty Fists +2, Belt of Giant Strength +4, Monk’s Robe; Defense Cloak of Resistance +3, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Ring of Protection +1, Ioun Stone (Dusty Rose Prism); Other Eyes of the Eagle, Handy Haversack, Ring of Feather Falling; Cash 10,300 gp

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:27 pm

#### (6.d.1) Unarmed Oona Results: Lvl 02 ####

# CR 04 MONSTER #
AC 17; HP 40
Attack +8 (16 dmg)
Primary Ability DC 15

# Unarmed Oona 02: NO STYLE #
AC 19; HP 20
Fort/Ref/Will +4/+5/+5; Special evasion
Attack unarmed +5/+5 (1d6+6/x2)
Special stunning fist (2/d, DC 13)

# Unarmed Oona Lvl 02 v. CR 04: NO STYLE #
Fort, Ref, Will = 50%, 55%, 55% success; evasion
DPR = 9.0 (22.5%)

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:27 pm

#### (6.d.2) Unarmed Oona Results: Lvl 05 ####

# CR 07 MONSTER #
AC 20; HP 85
Attack +13 (30 dmg)
Primary Ability DC 17

# Unarmed Oona 05: NO STYLE #
AC 23; HP 44
Fort/Ref/Will +6/+7/+8; Special +2 v. ench, evasion
Attack unarmed +9/+9 (1d8+9/x2)
Special Flying Kick (10 ft.), Stunning Fist (5/d, DC 15)

# Unarmed Oona 05: DRAGON STYLE#
AC 23; HP 44
Fort/Ref/Will +6/+7/+8; Special +2 v. ench, Dragon Style (+2 v. sleep, paralysis, stun), evasion
Attack unarmed +9/+9 (1d8+11, 1d8+9/x2)
Special Flying Kick, Stunning Fist (5/d, DC 15)

# Unarmed Oona Lvl 05 v. CR 07: NO STYLE #
Fort, Ref, Will = 50%, 55%, 60%; +10% v. ench; evasion
DPR = 14.2 (16.7%)

# Unarmed Oona Lvl 05 v. CR 07: DRAGON STYLE #
Fort, Ref, Will = 50%, 55%, 60%; +10% v. ench, +10% v. sleep, paralysis, stun; evasion
DPR = 15.2 (17.8%)

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:27 pm

#### (6.d.3) Unarmed Oona Results: Lvl 08 ####

# CR 10 MONSTER #
AC 24; HP 130
Attack +18 (45 dmg)
Primary Ability DC 19

# Unarmed Oona 08: NO STYLE #
AC 26 (plus Mobility); HP 68
Fort/Ref/Will +9/+10/+10; Special +2 v. ench, evasion
Attack unarmed +13/+13/+8 (2d6+13/x2)
Special Flying Kick (20 ft.), Stunning Fist (9/d, DC 17)

# Unarmed Oona 08: DRAGON STYLE#
AC 26 (plus Mobility); HP 68
Fort/Ref/Will +9/+10/+10; Special +2 v. ench, Dragon Style (+2 v. paralysis, sleep, stun), evasion
Attack unarmed +13/+13/+8 (2d6+19, 2d6+16/x2 plus shaken 1d4+6)
Special Flying Kick (20 ft.), Stunning Fist (9/d, DC 17)

# Unarmed Oona Lvl 08 v. CR 10: NO STYLE #
Fort, Ref, Will = 50%, 55%, 55% success; +10% v. ench, evasion
DPR = 26.2 (20.1%)

# Unarmed Oona Lvl 08 v. CR 10: DRAGON STYLE #
Fort, Ref, Will = 50%, 55%, 55% success; +10% v. ench, +10% v. paralysis, sleep, stun; evasion
DPR = 31.8 (24.5%)

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:28 pm

#### (6.d.4) Unarmed Oona Results: Lvl 11 ####

# CR 13 MONSTER #
AC 28; HP 180
Attack +22 (60 dmg)
Primary Ability DC 21

# Unarmed Oona 11: NO STYLE #
AC 30; HP 92
Fort/Ref/Will +11/+12/+12; Special +2 v. ench., improved evasion
Attack unarmed +18/+18/+18/+13/+8 (2d8+15/19-20x2 with Critical Focus)
Special Flying Kick (30 ft.), Foot Stomp, Stunning Fist (12/d, DC 18)

# Unarmed Oona 11: DRAGON STYLE#
AC 30; HP 92
Fort/Ref/Will +11/+12/+12; Special +2 v. ench., Dragon Style (+2 v. sleep, paralysis, stun), improved evasion
Attack unarmed +18/+18/+18/+13/+8 (2d8+21, 2d8+18/19-20x2 plus shaken 1d4+7, Critical Focus)
Special Dragon Style (mobility improvements), Flying Kick (30 ft.), Foot Stomp, Stunning Fist (12/d, DC 18)

# Unarmed Oona Lvl 11 v. CR 13: NO STYLE #
Fort, Ref, Will = 55%, 60%, 60% success; +10% v. ench, improved evasion
DPR = 54.9 (30.5%)

# Unarmed Oona Lvl 11 v. CR 13: DRAGON STYLE #
Fort, Ref, Will = 55%, 60%, 60% success; +10% v. ench; +10% v. sleep, paralysis, stun; improved evasion
DPR = 63.6 (35.3%)

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:28 pm

#### (7.a) Temple Sword Tina Build ####

And here’s Temple Sword Tina! Most of the work on Unarmed Oona will carry over, with adjustments for using a Temple Sword instead of Unarmed Strike.

Str 18 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 8

01 … Indomitable Faith, Placeholder; Power Attack, Iron Will, (b) Dodge
02 … (b) Placeholder
03 … Weapon Focus (temple sword)
04 … +1 Str [= 19]; (k) Barkskin
05 … Placeholder, (ss) Flying Kick
06 … (b) Mobility, (k) Placeholder
07 … Placeholder
08 … +1 Str [= 20]; (k) Placeholder
09 … Placeholder; (ss) Placeholder
10 … (b) Improved Critical (temple sword); (k) Placeholder
11 … Critical Focus

Here’s a complete specification, that I’ll use for our statblocks:

01 … Indomitable Faith, Dangerously Curious; Power Attack, Iron Will, (b) Dodge
02 … (b) Combat Reflexes
03 … Weapon Focus (temple sword)
04 … +1 Str [= 19]; (k) Barkskin
05 … Panther Style, (ss) Flying Kick
06 … (b) Mobility, (k) High Jump
07 … Panther Claw
08 … +1 Str [= 20]; (k) Wind Jump
09 … Spring Attack; (ss) Foot Stomp
10 … (b) Improved Critical (temple sword); (k) Insightful Wisdom
11 … Critical Focus

I’ve gone ahead and grabbed Panther Style and Panther Claw. I don’t know if they’re the most-optimal choice, but those retaliatory strikes should be a lot of fun with Flying Kick and Mobility, even if they’ll use an unarmed strike instead of the temple sword.

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:28 pm

#### (7.b) Temple Sword Tina Equipment ####

Lvl 02 — 01,000 gp
00,500 … Offense
00,300 … Protection
00,100 … Other Magic Gear
00,100 … Misc. (unavailable)

00,330 … Mwk Temple Sword
00,670 … Misc.

Lvl 05 — 10,500 gp
05,250 … Offense
03,150 … Protection
01,050 … Other Magic Gear
01,050 … Misc. (unavailable)

02,330 … Temple Sword +1
01,000 … Cloak of Resistance +1
04,000 … Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2
02,000 … Handy Haversack
01,170 … Misc.

Lvl 08 — 33,000 gp
16,500 … Offense
09,900 … Protection
03,300 … Other Magic Gear
03,300 … Misc. (unavailable)

04,000 … Belt of Giant Strength +2
08,330 … Temple Sword +2
04,000 … Cloak of Resistance +2
04,000 … Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2
05,000 … Ioun Stone (Dusty Rose Prism)
02,000 … Ring of Protection +1
02,000 … Handy Haversack
02,000 … Misc.

Lvl 11 — 82,000 gp
41,000 … Offense
24,600 … Protection
08,200 … Other Magic Gear
08,200 … Misc. (unavailable)

16,000 … Belt of Giant Strength +4
13,000 … Monk’s Robe
18,330 … Temple Sword +3
09,000 … Cloak of Resistance +3
04,000 … Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2
05,000 … Ioun Stone (Dusty Rose Prism)
02,000 … Ring of Protection +1
02,500 … Eyes of the Eagle
02,000 … Handy Haversack
02,200 … Ring of Feather Falling
07,970 … Misc.

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:29 pm

#### (7.c.1) Temple Sword Tina Stats: Lvl 02 ####

Human Monk 2
Init +2; Sense Perception +7

## DEFENSE ##
AC 19 (+4 mage armor, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, +1 dodge)
HP 20 (2d10+2+2)
Fort [3] +4, Ref [3] +5, Will [0+3] +5; Special evasion

## OFFENSE ##
Speed 30 ft.
Melee temple sword +6/+6 (1d8+9/19-20x2)
Atk = +2 bab, +4 Str, +1 enh, -1 pwr atk
Dmg = +6 Str, +3 pwr atk
Special flurry of blows (+1), stunning fist (2/d, DC 13)

## STATISTICS ##
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 8
BAB +2
Feats Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Iron Will, Power Attack [-1/+3]
Skills Acrobatics [2] +7, Climb [1] +8, Perception [2] +7, Profession (stunt double) [1] +6, Sense Motive [1] +6, Swim [1] +8, UMD [2] +5
Traits Dangerously Curious, Indomitable Faith
Race Traits Bonus feat, skilled
Class Abilities bonus feats [x2], evasion, flurry of blows (+1), stunning fist (2/d, DC 13); AC bonus (+0), fast movement (—), unarmed strike (1d6)

## EQUIPMENT ##
Offense mwk temple sword; Defense —; Other —; Cash 670 gp

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:29 pm

#### (7.c.2) Temple Sword Tina Stats: Lvl 05 ####

Human Monk 5
Init +2; Sense Perception +11

## DEFENSE ##
AC 23 (+4 mage armor, +1 monk, +2 Dex, +3 Wis, +1 dodge, +2 nat)
HP 44 (5d10+5+5)
Fort [4] +6, Ref [4] +7, Will [1+3] +8; Special +2 v. ench., evasion; cloak +1
Immune disease

## OFFENSE ##
Speed 40 ft.
Temple Sword temple sword +9/+9 (1d8+13/19-20x2)
Atk = +5 bab, +4 Str, +1 enh, +1 foc, -2 pwr atk
Dmg = +6 Str, +1 enh, +6 pwr atk
Unarmed Strike unarmed strike +7/+7 (1d8+9/x2)
Style Strikes Flying Kick (10 ft.)
Special flurry of blows (+1), panther style (swift), stunning fist (5/d, DC 15)

## KI POWERS (5 ki points) ##
barkskin [+2, 50 min] (1)

## STATISTICS ##
Str 19 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 16* Cha 8
BAB +5
Feats Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Iron Will, Panther Style, Power Attack [-2/+6], Weapon Focus (temple sword)
Ki Powers barkskin (1)
Style Strikes Flying Kick
Skills Acrobatics [5] +10, Climb [1] +9, Escape Artist [1] +6, Knowledge (history) [1] +4, Knowledge (religion) [1] +4, Perception [5] +11, Profession (stunt double) [1] +7, Ride [1] +6, Sense Motive [2] +8, Stealth [1] +6, Swim [1] +9, UMD [5] +8
Traits Dangerously Curious, Indomitable Faith
Race Traits Bonus feat, skilled
Class Abilities bonus feats [x2], evasion, flurry of blows (+1), ki powers [x1], ki strike (magic), purity of body, still mind, stunning fist (5/d, DC 15); AC bonus (+1), fast movement (+10 ft.), ki pool (5 points), style strike [x1] (1/rd), unarmed strike (magic; 1d8)

## EQUIPMENT ##
Offense Temple Sword +1; Defense Cloak of Resistance +1, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2; Other Handy Haversack; Cash 1,170 gp

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:29 pm

#### (7.c.3) Temple Sword Tina Stats: Lvl 08 ####

Human Monk 8
Init +2; Sense Perception +14

## DEFENSE ##
AC 27 (+4 mage armor, +2 monk, +2 Dex, +3 Wis, +1 dodge, +3 nat, +1 defl, +1 insight); Special Mobility
HP 68 (8d10+8+8)
Fort [6] +9, Ref [6] +10, Will [2+3] +10; Special +2 v. ench., evasion; cloak +2
Immune disease

## OFFENSE ##
Speed 50 ft.
Temple Sword temple sword +14/+14/+9 (1d8+20/19-20x2)
Atk = +8 bab, +6 Str, +2 enh, +1 foc, -3 pwr atk
Dmg = +9 Str, +2 enh, +9 pwr atk
Unarmed Strike unarmed strike +11/+11/+6 (1d10+12/x2)
Style Strikes Flying Kick (20 ft.)
Special flurry of blows (+1), panther style (free, 3/rd), stunning fist (9/d, DC 17)

## KI POWERS (7 ki points) ##
barkskin [+3, 80 min] (1), high jump (–/+1), wind jump (1)

## STATISTICS ##
Str 22* Dex 14 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 16* Cha 8
BAB +8/+3
Feats Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Iron Will, Mobility, Panther Claw, Panther Style, Power Attack [-3/+9], Weapon Focus (temple sword)
Ki Powers barkskin (1), high jump (–/1), wind jump (1)
Style Strikes Flying Kick
Skills Acrobatics [8] +13 (high jump), Climb [1] +10, Escape Artist [1] +6, Fly [2] +4, Knowledge (history) [1] +4, Knowledge (religion) [1] +4, Perception [8] +14, Profession (stunt double) [1] +7, Ride [1] +6, Sense Motive [6] +12, Stealth [1] +6, Swim [1] +10, UMD [8] +11
Traits Dangerously Curious, Indomitable Faith
Race Traits Bonus feat, skilled
Class Abilities bonus feats [x3], evasion, flurry of blows (+1), ki powers [x3], ki strike (cold iron/silver), purity of body, still mind, stunning fist (9/d*, DC 17); AC bonus (+2), fast movement (+20 ft.), ki pool (7 points), style strike [x1] (1/rd), unarmed strike (cold iron/silver; 1d10)

## EQUIPMENT ##
Offense Belt of Giant Strength +2, Temple Sword +2; Defense Cloak of Resistance +2, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Ioun Stone (Dusty Rose Prism), Ring of Protection +1; Other Handy Haversack; Cash 3,670 gp

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:29 pm

#### (7.c.4) Temple Sword Tina Stats: Lvl 11 ####

Human Monk 11
Init +2; Sense Perception +22

## OFFENSE ##
Speed 60 ft.
Temple Sword temple sword +19/+19/+19/+14/+9 (1d8+22/17-20x2 with Critical Focus)
Atk = +11 bab, +7 Str, +3 enh, +1 foc, -3 pwr atk
Dmg = +10 Str, +3 enh, +9 pwr atk
Unarmed Strike unarmed strike +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 (2d8+13/x2 with Critical Focus)
Style Strikes Flying Kick (30 ft.), Foot Stomp
Special flurry of blows (+2), panther style (free, 3/rd), stunning fist (12/d, DC 18)

## KI POWERS (8 ki points) ##
barkskin [+4, 110 min] (1), high jump (–/1), insightful wisdom (2), wind jump (1)

## STATISTICS ##
Str 24* Dex 14 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 16* Cha 8
BAB +11/+6/+1
Feats Combat Reflexes, Critical Focus, Dodge, Improved Critical (temple sword), Iron Will, Mobility, Panther Claw, Panther Style, Power Attack [-3/+9], Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (temple sword)
Ki Powers barkskin (1), high jump (–/1), insightful wisdom (2), wind jump (1)
Style Strikes Flying Kick, Foot Stomp
Skills Acrobatics [11] +16 (high jump), Climb [1] +11, Escape Artist [1] +6, Fly [8] +10, Knowledge (history) [1] +4, Knowledge (religion) [1] +4, Perception [11] +22*, Profession (stunt double) [1] +7, Ride [1] +6, Sense Motive [6] +12, Stealth [1] +6, Swim [1] +11, UMD [11] +14; Special high jump
Traits Dangerously Curious, Indomitable Faith
Race Traits Bonus feat, skilled
Class Abilities bonus feats [x4], evasion (improved), flurry of blows (+2), ki powers [x4], ki strike (lawful), still mind, stunning fist (12/d*, DC 18); AC bonus (+4*), fast movement (+30 ft.), ki pool (8 points), style strike [x2] (1/rd), unarmed strike (lawful; 2d8*)

## EQUIPMENT ##
Offense Belt of Giant Strength +4, Monk’s Robe, Temple Sword +3; Defense Cloak of Resistance +3, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Ring of Protection +1, Ioun Stone (Dusty Rose Prism); Other Eyes of the Eagle, Handy Haversack, Ring of Feather Falling; Cash 07,970 gp

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:29 pm

#### (7.d.1) Temple Sword Tina Results: Lvl 02 ####

# CR 04 MONSTER #
AC 17; HP 40
Attack +8 (16 dmg)
Primary Ability DC 15

# Temple Sword Tina 02 #
AC 19; HP 20
Fort/Ref/Will +4/+5/+5; Special evasion
Attack temple sword +6/+6 (1d8+9/19-20x2)
Special stunning fist (2/d, DC 13)

# Temple Sword Tina Lvl 02 v. CR 04 #
Fort, Ref, Will = 50%, 55%, 55% success; evasion
DPR = 14.9 (37.3%)

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:30 pm

#### (7.d.2) Temple Sword Tina Results: Lvl 05 ####

# CR 07 MONSTER #
AC 20; HP 85
Attack +13 (30 dmg)
Primary Ability DC 17

# Temple Sword Tina 05 #
AC 23; HP 44
Fort/Ref/Will +6/+7/+8; Special +2 v. ench, evasion
Temple Sword Flurry temple sword +9/+9 (1d8+13/19-20x2)
Flying Kick Flurry unarmed +7 (1d8+9/x2), temple sword +9 (1d8+13/19-20x2)
Special Flying Kick (10 ft.), Stunning Fist (5/d, DC 15)

# Temple Sword Tina Lvl 05 v. CR 07 #
Fort, Ref, Will = 50%, 55%, 60%; +10% v. ench; evasion
DPR = 15.3–19.3 (18–22.7%)

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:30 pm

#### (7.d.3) Temple Sword Tina Results: Lvl 08 ####

# CR 10 MONSTER #
AC 24; HP 130
Attack +18 (45 dmg)
Primary Ability DC 19

# Temple Sword Tina 08 #
AC 26 (plus Mobility); HP 68
Fort/Ref/Will +9/+10/+10; Special +2 v. ench, evasion
Temple Sword Flurry temple sword +14/+14/+9 (1d8+20/19-20x2)
Flying Kick Flurry unarmed strike +11 (1d10+12/x2), temple sword +14/+9 (1d8+20/x2)
Special Flying Kick (20 ft.), Stunning Fist (9/d, DC 17)

# Temple Sword Tina Lvl 08 v. CR 10 #
Fort, Ref, Will = 50%, 55%, 55% success; +10% v. ench, evasion
DPR = 30.3–37.7 (23.3–29%)

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:30 pm

#### (7.d.4) Temple Sword Tina Results: Lvl 11 ####

# CR 13 MONSTER #
AC 28; HP 180
Attack +22 (60 dmg)
Primary Ability DC 21

# Temple Sword Tina 11 #
AC 30; HP 92
Fort/Ref/Will +11/+12/+12; Special +2 v. ench., improved evasion
Temple Sword Flurry temple sword +19/+19/+19/+14/+9 (1d8+22/17-20x2 with Critical Focus)
Flying Kick Flurry unarmed strike +15 (2d8+13/x2 with Critical Focus), temple sword +19/+19/+14/+9 (2d8+13/x2 with Critical Focus)
Special Flying Kick (30 ft.), Foot Stomp, Stunning Fist (12/d, DC 18)

# Temple Sword Tina Lvl 11 v. CR 13 #
Fort, Ref, Will = 55%, 60%, 60% success; +10% v. ench, improved evasion
DPR = 65.4–76.1 (36.3–42.3%)

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:30 pm

#### (8) Summary of Findings ####

### Level 02 v. CR 04 Monster ##

# Benchmark Fighter Lvl 02 v. CR 04 #
Fort/Ref/Will 55%, 40%, 50% success
DPR = 6.4–8.9 (16%–22.3%)

# Unarmed Oona Lvl 02 v. CR 04: NO STYLE #
Fort, Ref, Will = 50%, 55%, 55% success; evasion
DPR = 9.0 (22.5%)

# Temple Sword Tina Lvl 02 v. CR 04 #
Fort, Ref, Will = 50%, 55%, 55% success; evasion
DPR = 14.9 (37.3%)

### Level 05 v. CR 07 Monster ##

# Benchmark Fighter Lvl 05 v. CR 07 #
Fort, Ref, Will = 55%, 40%, 50% success
DPR = 11.6–15.2 (13.7%–17.9%)

# Unarmed Oona Lvl 05 v. CR 07 #
Fort, Ref, Will = 50%, 55%, 60%; +10% v. ench; evasion; (+10% v. sleep, paralysis, stun)
DPR = 14.2–15.2 (16.7–17.9%)

# Temple Sword Tina Lvl 05 v. CR 07 #
Fort, Ref, Will = 50%, 55%, 60%; +10% v. ench; evasion
DPR = 15.3–19.3 (18–22.7%)

### Level 08 v. CR 10 Monster ##

# Benchmark Fighter Lvl 08 v. CR 10 #
Fort, Ref, Will = 60%, 40%, 50% success
DPR = 22.5–34.6 (17.3–26.6%)

# Unarmed Oona Lvl 08 v. CR 10 #
Fort, Ref, Will = 50%, 55%, 55% success; +10% v. ench, evasion; (+10% v. paralysis, sleep, stun)
DPR = 26.2–31.8 (20.1–24.5%)

# Temple Sword Tina Lvl 08 v. CR 10 #
Fort, Ref, Will = 50%, 55%, 55% success; +10% v. ench, evasion
DPR = 30.3–37.7 (23.3–29%)

### Level 11 v. CR 13 Monster ##

# Benchmark Fighter Lvl 11 v. CR 13 #
Fort, Ref, Will = 60%, 40%, 50% success
DPR = 47–65.3 (26.1%–36.3%)

# Unarmed Oona Lvl 11 v. CR 13 #
Fort, Ref, Will = 55%, 60%, 60% success; +10% v. ench, improved evasion; (+10% v. paralysis, sleep, stun)
DPR = 54.9–63.6 (30.5–35.3%)

# Temple Sword Tina Lvl 11 v. CR 13 #
Fort, Ref, Will = 55%, 60%, 60% success; +10% v. ench, improved evasion
DPR = 65.4–76.1 (36.3–42.3%)

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:30 pm

#### (9) Evaluation and Concluding Remarks ####

In this series of posts, I’ve asked the following question about the Unchained Monk: Will the Unchained Monk successfully fulfill the role of a martial arts melee combatant in a Pathfinder party?

I put together two basic, straightforward, and flexible Unchained Monk builds, one focusing on unarmed strikes (Unarmed Oona) and the other focusing on using a weapon (Temple Sword Tina), and then compared the performance of these two builds to my previously-assembled <Reference: Basic Fighter Builds> as a reasonable benchmark.

Reviewing my findings here, my only possible conclusion is that the Unchained Monk succeeds admirably at the test we’ve put it to.

Offense. The Unchained Monk’s damage matches or outperforms the Basic Fighter at every level, even when unarmed and not using Dragon Style to boost its damage (i.e., the lowest-damage possibility that I’ve considered for the Unchained Monk).

Defense. The Unchained Monk also has an AC that is either equivalent or (when assuming mage armor) significantly better than the Basic Fighter, a slightly weaker Fortitude save but significantly better Reflex and Will saves.

Other. Finally, the Unchained Monk has a wide variety of fun, flexible combat options that the Fighter does not enjoy, including Style Strikes that should add a considerable DPR boost not reflected here (i.e. Flying Kick allows the Unchained Monk to land full attacks much more frequently than the far less mobile Basic Fighter).

So I conclude that the Unchained Monk is a successful class, and it may be fair to say (if my builds and numbers are approximately correct) that it is even a very successful class. And looking at these builds, it also looks like a very fun class! I’m pretty excited about bringing an Unchained Monk to the table now. :-)

Of course, I don’t expect that everyone will share my judgment. That’s fine! But I wanted to think through this process out loud for my own sake, and I also hope that this might be a helpful contribution to the ongoing forum conversation about the class. Even if some folks dissent from my judgment, which is to be expected, I hope that by making my process clear we might be better able to clarify where the divergence in judgment enters in. E.g., Does our imagined dissenter just have higher or different standard of what counts as “success”? What standards are those and why might they be more reasonable in evaluating the class? Or have I messed up my builds or my numbers in some way? Would correcting those errors significantly hamper the Monk’s performance?

But this record is more than enough for my first entry in the conversation. Let this stand as round 1 of my thoughts.

Thoughts & comments are welcome! :-)

Table of Contents:

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 06:31 pm

#### (10) Table of Contents ####

— — — End Unchained Monk Evaluation v. 1 — — —
— — — Comments Welcome — — —

Tels	May 3, 2015, 08:32 pm

How are you accounting for mage armor in all of the level 5 and up Monk builds considering you spent none of your money on potions, or wands of mage armor or even a pearl of power for the party caster to make use of?

I also don't see you calculating the DPR that the Monk/Fighter takes from the monsters at those levels, which can be important, especially if the Monk's AC are all 4 points less. Both Monk builds have less HP than either of the Fighter builds.

Anyway, I don't think anyone has actually complained that the Unchained Monk is a bad class, only that it was a side-grade instead of an upgrade. It's worth noting that, with archetype support, the Pathfinder Monk is roughly as equally effective as any of the four builds you presented.

The two biggest complaints I have about the Unchained Monk were substantiated by this test, though. Namely, the bad Will save progression, and Ki points.

You were forced to spend both a Feat and a Trait on your will save and you only came in at 2 points higher than that of the Fighters who did the same. For a class that's supposed to be all amount mental discipline and a focus on it's mystical powers and stuff, I feel this is rather a bad case of the mechanics not backing up the fluff.

However, the Will save could be bumped a little by reshuffling some cold around to purchase a Headband of Inspired Wisdom. For example, dropping the Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone (5,000 gp) for a Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 (4,000 gp) won't detract from your AC at all (Wisdom bonus to AC), but will bump your AC by +1 and your Ki pool by +1.

Reducing the MADness of the Monk would also help, which can be done via Weapon Finesse and an agile amulet, but the amulet is not a part of the 'Core' line of products or of your test. Templesword Tina could possibly do something similar with Slashing Grave, but only if it gets errated (as some suspect it will be based off text in Unchained).

Still, these are not options that a new player would 'obviously' choose nor have access to.

Like you noticed in your opening statements, the Ki Pool is too small for you to really 'play around with' and not leave yourself crippled both offensively and defensively. This can be helped a little with the same things to help the Will save.

Over-all, I full expect the Unchained Monk to be a 'good class' but I, personally, find him lacking due to some odd design choices. I think simply an reversal to good Will saves (possibly with a loss in another save, hopefully Reflex), and an increase in the Ki pool would satisfy most people.

The other major complain many people had is the complete destruction of archetype support. It's also something that won't ever be rectified without a new product released specifically designed to do so.

Joe M.

May 3, 2015, 08:40 pm

Thanks for the thoughtful comment, Tels. It's quite late here so I'm turning in, but I'll get back to you tomorrow.

Joe M.

May 4, 2015, 06:17 am

Tels wrote:

How are you accounting for mage armor in all of the level 5 and up Monk builds considering you spent none of your money on potions, or wands of mage armor or even a pearl of power for the party caster to make use of?

I also don't see you calculating the DPR that the Monk/Fighter takes from the monsters at those levels, which can be important, especially if the Monk's AC are all 4 points less. Both Monk builds have less HP than either of the Fighter builds.

Yeah, I sort of waved my hands at mage armor. It’s probably because I mostly play in PFS, but level 1 wands seem so easily accessible I rarely worry about them. Just spend 2 Prestige, get a level 1 wand! I imagine two wands would easily get you through level 11.

I also imagine it would be easy enough to shift around resources to account for the pearl of power and or wand of mage armor as necessary. But I should have been clearer about that assumption and I should have included the relative AC numbers both with and without mage armor in the final review.

So here is the review with AC numbers included. The Unchained Monk appears to fall a point or two below the Fighter without mage armor and a point or two above when mage armor is active. So I would definitely try to find a way to keep that up.

#### (8) Summary of Findings ####

### Level 02 v. CR 04 Monster ##

# Benchmark Fighter Lvl 02 v. CR 04 #
AC = 20/18
Fort/Ref/Will 55%, 40%, 50% success
DPR = 6.4–8.9 (16%–22.3%)

# Unarmed Oona Lvl 02 v. CR 04 #
AC = 15/19
Fort, Ref, Will = 50%, 55%, 55% success; evasion
DPR = 9.0 (22.5%)

# Temple Sword Tina Lvl 02 v. CR 04 #
AC = 15/19
Fort, Ref, Will = 50%, 55%, 55% success; evasion
DPR = 14.9 (37.3%)

### Level 05 v. CR 07 Monster ##

# Benchmark Fighter Lvl 05 v. CR 07 #
AC = 23/21
Fort, Ref, Will = 55%, 40%, 50% success
DPR = 11.6–15.2 (13.7%–17.9%)

# Unarmed Oona Lvl 05 v. CR 07 #
AC = 19/23
Fort, Ref, Will = 50%, 55%, 60%; +10% v. ench; evasion; (+10% v. sleep, paralysis, stun)
DPR = 14.2–15.2 (16.7–17.9%)

# Temple Sword Tina Lvl 05 v. CR 07 #
AC = 19/23
Fort, Ref, Will = 50%, 55%, 60%; +10% v. ench; evasion
DPR = 15.3–19.3 (18–22.7%)

### Level 08 v. CR 10 Monster ##

# Benchmark Fighter Lvl 08 v. CR 10 #
AC = 28/24
Fort, Ref, Will = 60%, 40%, 50% success
DPR = 22.5–34.6 (17.3–26.6%)

# Unarmed Oona Lvl 08 v. CR 10 #
AC = 22/26
Fort, Ref, Will = 50%, 55%, 55% success; +10% v. ench, evasion; (+10% v. paralysis, sleep, stun)
DPR = 26.2–31.8 (20.1–24.5%)

# Temple Sword Tina Lvl 08 v. CR 10 #
AC = 23/27
Fort, Ref, Will = 50%, 55%, 55% success; +10% v. ench, evasion
DPR = 30.3–37.7 (23.3–29%)

### Level 11 v. CR 13 Monster ##

# Benchmark Fighter Lvl 11 v. CR 13 #
AC = 32/27
Fort, Ref, Will = 60%, 40%, 50% success
DPR = 47–65.3 (26.1%–36.3%)

# Unarmed Oona Lvl 11 v. CR 13 #
AC = 26/30
Fort, Ref, Will = 55%, 60%, 60% success; +10% v. ench, improved evasion; (+10% v. paralysis, sleep, stun)
DPR = 54.9–63.6 (30.5–35.3%)

# Temple Sword Tina Lvl 11 v. CR 13 #
AC = 26/30
Fort, Ref, Will = 55%, 60%, 60% success; improved evasion
DPR = 65.4–76.1 (36.3–42.3%)

Joe M.

May 4, 2015, 06:22 am

Tels wrote:

You were forced to spend both a Feat and a Trait on your will save and you only came in at 2 points higher than that of the Fighters who did the same. For a class that's supposed to be all amount mental discipline and a focus on it's mystical powers and stuff, I feel this is rather a bad case of the mechanics not backing up the fluff.

I see the concern. It’s just not something that personally bothers me all that much. Actually, I prefer the high Reflex base over the high Will base—I can envision some Monk characters who fit a theme without a really really awesome Will save, but I can’t really envision some Monk characters who fit a theme but don’t have a really really awesome Reflex save.

And I really wouldn’t want to give up combat effectiveness in exchange for a higher Will save, if that were the tradeoff. So I’m happy enough with the low Will save, it seems inline with the general Pathfinder ruleset, and I’ll just grab Indomitable Faith and Iron Will, same way I do with all my martial characters. :-)

Which is to say, matter of taste, YMMV. But I acknowledge the concern and can see how it would be important to some folks even if it’s not a concern that I personally share.

Joe M.

May 4, 2015, 06:35 am

Tels wrote:

Anyway, I don't think anyone has actually complained that the Unchained Monk is a bad class, only that it was a side-grade instead of an upgrade.

That may be the case. I’m not familiar with the Core Monk. But I actually think that that helps me evaluate the Unchained Monk on its own terms, which seems to me to be the only fair way to do it.

But let me say that I would be surprised if it were actually true that the Unchained Monk represents only a “side-grade” in comparison to the Core Monk. The class itself seems just so much better to my (unfamiliar) eyes. I think the next point might help clarify …

Tels wrote:

It's worth noting that, with archetype support, the Pathfinder Monk is roughly as equally effective as any of the four builds you presented […] The other major complain many people had is the complete destruction of archetype support. It's also something that won't ever be rectified without a new product released specifically designed to do so.

I’m taking this point last because I think it’s the most interesting one. Because you’re right that it’s a huge loss to the class to lose that archetype support. It’s also a less-obvious loss to the class that whatever old traits, feats, items, or other character options that do work with the Unchained Monk have been written for and presumably balanced around the Core Monk, and so they might not be the best fit or optimal for an Unchained Monk, for whatever reason.

But I think what this helpfully brings out is why the “core” test is appropriate for evaluating the class itself. It’s true that the Unchained Monk suffers in comparison to the Core Monk and in comparison to other Pathfinder classes from a distinct lack of support from supplemental materials. They were just wiped away!

But I don’t think we should judge the class itself on that basis. We shouldn’t compare (Core Monk plus tons of goodies) or (Fighter plus tons of goodies) to (Unchained Monk but just the class itself). If the Unchained Monk succeeded in that test, then it would be much more powerful, just as the class itself, than the Core Monk, or the Fighter, or whatever other class. Because you’re comparing the buffed-up version of one class to the basic, not-buffed-up version of the other rather than using the same standard. Apples and oranges.

But now imagine how the Unchained Monk might look with a couple years of supporting material published for it. Then it would look like a really good class, I imagine, and much better than the Core Monk. It’s just a weird artifact of the structure of Unchained that we got a new class with, for the first time, no dedicated support of its own! (Every other new class was published with some supporting material, this is the only one that came basically unsupported.)

So I think we should be very clear that we’d like continuing support for the Unchained Monk—a Player Companion rewriting old archetypes for the Unchained Monk, say, would be an awesome and much-appreciated product for bringing this new class with no goodies of its own “up to speed” in comparison to the much-more-supported classes that it will be playing alongside.

But that fact isn’t a judgment against the Unchained Monk as a class just in itself, that fact is a claim that the Unchained Monk needs dedicated support like any other class in supplementary materials, and that it needs special attention because it’s so far behind all the others (thanks to archetypes being wiped out and old Monk options being designed for a different Monk class and so possibly not working so well).

Rhedyn

May 4, 2015, 09:54 am

I do not know if I would consider beating the fighter proof of a successful class.

How does unchained monk compare to CRB monk + splat?

Joe M.

May 4, 2015, 09:59 am

Rhedyn wrote:

I do not know if I would consider beating the fighter proof of a successful class.

I've given my reasons for choosing this standard of comparison. What would you rather compare the Unchained Monk to, and why?

Rhedyn wrote:

How does unchained monk compare to CRB monk + splat?

See my post immediately above yours. I don't think this is a helpful comparison—(optimized and supplement supported) apples to (not-especially-optimized and non-supplement-supported) oranges—, but if you're interested in making it, you're certainly welcome to put together some numbers.

kestral287

May 4, 2015, 10:11 am

While comparing Unchained Monk with Core support to Fighter with all the bells and whistles isn't really fair, Unchained Monk vs. Old-Style Monk is honestly a very important facet of things: that is, after all, the class it's meant to upgrade.

Ughbash

May 4, 2015, 10:11 am

I would argue that while restricting fighters to core fighter is acceptable, both the fighter and the unchained monk should have access to items and feats from other books (including the gloves of dueling).

The unchained monk has no issue using these so it still gives an apples to apples comparison. After all you are allowing the Unchained monk to use style feats from Ultimate combat.

Joe M.

May 4, 2015, 10:18 am

I'm sort-of with you both there, but it's a bit trickier than that, because all the old Monk-specific options were designed for the Core Monk and may or may not be a great fit for the Unchained Monk. So even the options that, unlike archetypes, weren't right-out eliminated are still not necessarily going to represent full supplemental support for the class. (E.g., if an old Monk option was good because Core Monk had 3/4 BAB, it's just not going to be useful for full-BAB Unchained Monk ... so that would be 1 character option "wasted" for the Unchained Monk where the Fighter's comparable option will still be just as good.)

As I put it just above:

Joe M. wrote:

you’re right that it’s a huge loss to the class to lose that archetype support. It’s also a less-obvious loss to the class that whatever old traits, feats, items, or other character options that do work with the Unchained Monk have been written for and presumably balanced around the Core Monk, and so they might not be the best fit or optimal for an Unchained Monk, for whatever reason.

With all that in mind, I think it's easier to really stick "Core"-as-far-as-possible to get a read on the strengths and weaknesses of the class itself, and then if when we make the sort of comparisons you're suggesting we find significant divergences, we should understand that just as a good reason that the Unchained Monk needs dedicated supplemental support rather than a problem with the class itself.

Or so it seems to me.

I made the exception for Style feats for the reasons explained at the top, but that's also why I gave the numbers without counting Style feats in, so you could discount those if you thought that more appropriate.

Finally, I'm just not familiar with a lot of the already-existing Monk options, so it was easier for me to keep the experiment controlled and more straightforward.

If you want to put together builds drawing on more options, please go ahead—I'd be interested to see them—, but I'm really not sure, in principle, just how useful those comparisons will be. :-)

Joe M.

May 4, 2015, 10:39 am

<Snake Sidewind> might be a good, small example of the sort of "hidden" loss the Unchained Monk probably experiences with regard to old Core Monk options:

Snake Sidewind wrote:

You gain a +4 bonus to CMD against trip combat maneuvers and on Acrobatics checks and saving throws to avoid being knocked prone. While using the Snake Style feat, whenever you score a critical threat with your unarmed strike, you can make a Sense Motive check in place of the attack roll to confirm the critical hit. Whenever you score a critical hit with your unarmed strike, you can spend an immediate action to take a 5-foot step even if you have otherwise moved this round.

One of the main benefits of the feat is allowing a Sense Motive roll to confirm an unarmed crit. When you're rolling with a 3/4 bab Core Monk, or a Core Monk with flurry penalty, being able to use a skill roll in place of a confirmation roll is a pretty cool benefit. But it's just not nearly as exciting for full bab, no-penalty flurry for the Unchained Monk.

I suspect that if Snake Sidewind had been written for the Unchained Monk, it would be a cooler and more useful option for the class. But since it's balanced against the Core Monk, it's not really giving the same boost to the Unchained Monk as a dedicated character option written with the Unchained Monk in mind would be giving.

See what I mean? That's why I'm worried that (Unchained Monk + Core Monk options) can't be fairly compared to (Fighter + Fighter options). It's going to tend away from the sort of controlled, apples-to-apples comparison I'm trying to get a handle on here.

Tels	May 4, 2015, 10:57 am

It might help to do a test designed around the Core Pathfinder Monk, especially since, as you claim, you don't "know" the Monk. What would you choose? How would you do it? How would it stack up?

If the Unchained Monk isn't objectively better than the Pathfinder Monk, then I would consider the Unchained Monk a let down. I think the Unchained Monk will come out ahead, if only because the Pathfinder Monk is rather sad, all things considered, but by how much will he be ahead of the Pathfinder Monk?

Joe M.

May 4, 2015, 11:14 am

Tels wrote:

It might help to do a test designed around the Core Pathfinder Monk, especially since, as you claim, you don't "know" the Monk. What would you choose? How would you do it? How would it stack up?

If the Unchained Monk isn't objectively better than the Pathfinder Monk, then I would consider the Unchained Monk a let down. I think the Unchained Monk will come out ahead, if only because the Pathfinder Monk is rather sad, all things considered, but by how much will he be ahead of the Pathfinder Monk?

You're right, that would be an interesting and helpful exercise. I avoided it at first because I wanted to take the Unchained Monk with fresh eyes and no preconceptions, but now that I've got a handle on what I think of the Unchained Monk it would be interesting to go back and compare the Core Monk.

I'm pretty busy over the next couple days but when I have time I'll make the comparison. When I do, I'll stick to the same "Core" principles—CRB, temple sword, basic traits, Style Feats—to get the most-controlled comparison possible, and we'll see how it goes!

QuidEst

May 4, 2015, 11:18 am

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Awesome! Thanks for putting this together- very cool to see. I'm definitely more inclined to try out an Unchained Monk now.

Weirdo

May 5, 2015, 10:04 am

Joe M. wrote:

One of the main benefits of the feat is allowing a Sense Motive roll to confirm an unarmed crit. When you're rolling with a 3/4 bab Core Monk, or a Core Monk with flurry penalty, being able to use a skill roll in place of a confirmation roll is a pretty cool benefit. But it's just not nearly as exciting for full bab, no-penalty flurry for the Unchained Monk.

Having full BAB is not going to make a big difference to this feat.

I have a Snake Style Bloodrager 7 / MoMS 2 with a Sense Motive bonus of +22 and an attack bonus capping at I think +18 (raging with a furious AoMF), down to only +6 on a non-raging Power Attacking iterative attack. So using Sense Motive to confirm is anywhere from a +4 (the equivalent of Critical Focus) to +16.

All other things being equal, the difference in accuracy between a Core and Unchained monk is about -2, though it opens up a bit more for a non-flurrying monk at levels 9+. If we assume that the Unchained Monk has a similar accuracy to a raging barbarian that's not using Power Attack (a generous assumption) then you're looking the difference between an improvement of 4 for the Unchained Monk and 6 for the Core Monk for a main attack, and something like 9 and 11 for an iterative.

It's a slightly better feat for the Core Monk, but not enough to make a real difference in the overall strength of the classes - especially since Snake Style is only considered a moderately good style compared to Dragon or Pummeling Style.

Tels	May 5, 2015, 01:59 pm

Weirdo wrote:

Joe M. wrote:
One of the main benefits of the feat is allowing a Sense Motive roll to confirm an unarmed crit. When you're rolling with a 3/4 bab Core Monk, or a Core Monk with flurry penalty, being able to use a skill roll in place of a confirmation roll is a pretty cool benefit. But it's just not nearly as exciting for full bab, no-penalty flurry for the Unchained Monk.
Having full BAB is not going to make a big difference to this feat.
I have a Snake Style Bloodrager 7 / MoMS 2 with a Sense Motive bonus of +22 and an attack bonus capping at I think +18 (raging with a furious AoMF), down to only +6 on a non-raging Power Attacking iterative attack. So using Sense Motive to confirm is anywhere from a +4 (the equivalent of Critical Focus) to +16.

All other things being equal, the difference in accuracy between a Core and Unchained monk is about -2, though it opens up a bit more for a non-flurrying monk at levels 9+. If we assume that the Unchained Monk has a similar accuracy to a raging barbarian that's not using Power Attack (a generous assumption) then you're looking the difference between an improvement of 4 for the Unchained Monk and 6 for the Core Monk for a main attack, and something like 9 and 11 for an iterative.

It's a slightly better feat for the Core Monk, but not enough to make a real difference in the overall strength of the classes - especially since Snake Style is only considered a moderately good style compared to Dragon or Pummeling Style.

Determining whether Dragon Style or Snake Style is the better DPS boost depends largely upon the individual characters. For example, Snake Style itself doesn't really offer much of a DPS boost, where as Dragon Style does. However, if you also have Snake Fang, it does offer an indirect DPS boost, but it relies on the AC or defenses of the character.

Every time you are attacked in melee and the enemy misses, you have the chance to make an Attack of Opportunity in return. So if you can reliably build your AC high enough to generate a plethora of extra attacks Snake Style/Snake Fang will be a far higher increase in DPS than Dragon Style/Dragon Ferocity will be.

However, Dragon Style/Dragon Ferocity doesn't rely on the actions of the enemy to deal additional damage.

Mark Seifter Designer

May 5, 2015, 02:05 pm

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Tels wrote:

Weirdo wrote:

Joe M. wrote:
One of the main benefits of the feat is allowing a Sense Motive roll to confirm an unarmed crit. When you're rolling with a 3/4 bab Core Monk, or a Core Monk with flurry penalty, being able to use a skill roll in place of a confirmation roll is a pretty cool benefit. But it's just not nearly as exciting for full bab, no-penalty flurry for the Unchained Monk.
Having full BAB is not going to make a big difference to this feat.
I have a Snake Style Bloodrager 7 / MoMS 2 with a Sense Motive bonus of +22 and an attack bonus capping at I think +18 (raging with a furious AoMF), down to only +6 on a non-raging Power Attacking iterative attack. So using Sense Motive to confirm is anywhere from a +4 (the equivalent of Critical Focus) to +16.

All other things being equal, the difference in accuracy between a Core and Unchained monk is about -2, though it opens up a bit more for a non-flurrying monk at levels 9+. If we assume that the Unchained Monk has a similar accuracy to a raging barbarian that's not using Power Attack (a generous assumption) then you're looking the difference between an improvement of 4 for the Unchained Monk and 6 for the Core Monk for a main attack, and something like 9 and 11 for an iterative.

It's a slightly better feat for the Core Monk, but not enough to make a real difference in the overall strength of the classes - especially since Snake Style is only considered a moderately good style compared to Dragon or Pummeling Style.
Determining whether Dragon Style or Snake Style is the better DPS boost depends largely upon the individual characters. For example, Snake Style itself doesn't really offer much of a DPS boost, where as Dragon Style does. However, if you also have Snake Fang, it does offer an indirect DPS boost, but it relies on the AC or defenses of the character.
Every time you are attacked in melee and the enemy misses, you have the chance to make an Attack of Opportunity in return. So if you can reliably build your AC...

I imagine that Snake Fang will work extremely well with Foot Stomp, where they can't move to hit anybody else or move out of your reach before attacking you.

Weirdo

May 5, 2015, 03:37 pm

@Tels - I agree with you on the advantages and disadvantages of Snake Style. I personally have been using it largely to cover for my monkrager's relatively low AC, but as I get access to more defenses from the bloodrager I am hoping to get more play from Snake Fang. I've actually got Dragon Style on the same character and found both styles about equally useful but Dragon Style seemed more popular on the boards so I thought my experience was unusual. Guess not! However I still wouldn't call it a key enough feat line that a small loss in usefulness would matter much to the Unchained Monk overall.

@Mark - I did like the look of Foot Stomp, tactically speaking, and it would be a good match with Snake Fang - which actually reinforces the point that the Snake Style line isn't significantly less useful to the Unchained Monk than the Core Monk.

Lack of feat and item support does not seem important to me since I think the Unchained Monk will be able to benefit appropriately for most things designed for the Core Monk. Lack of archetype support is a big deal but it shouldn't be hard to homebrew a fix.

As for the OP's comparison, I think the barbarian would be a more appropriate standard. It's another full-BAB non-casting class that has a strong offense, some limited use-per-day abilities, and with a basic Beast Totem build the potential for a strong defense and good mobility. You don't even have to include superstition.

Joe M.

May 5, 2015, 03:39 pm

#### Core Monk Cameron Build ####

At Tels’s suggestion. Following the same general principles as my Unarmed Oona and Temple Sword Tina, here’s Core Monk Cameron. For the most part I’ll be making the same character choices as I made for Oona and Tina, in order to control variables and make sure we’re comparing apples to apples, except in cases where a difference in the class makes the choice obviously inappropriate.

As with Oona and Tina, I’ll allow Core Monk Cameron access to “Core” elements understood as follows: Core Rulebook, whatever rules elements the class’s specific write-up points to beyond the Core Rulebook, Style Feats from Ultimate Combat, and the temple sword from the Advanced Player’s Guide.

I guess I’ll also give Cameron the Qinggong archetype for access to Ki Powers: though I’m kind of uncomfortable going beyond Core here, I feel so bad for the poor Core Monk that I’ll give it at least that little boost. I’ll probably just swap out one class feature (high jump, I think) for barkskin, since that’s the only absolutely critical one and it’ll keep Cameron more or less in line (as far as character options go) with Oona and Tina, and not monkey around with it beyond that for fear of too-seriously deviating from the Core Monk.

I’ll present an armed and an unarmed version of Cameron and we’ll just test at Level 11 for simplicity’s sake. A full evaluation would of course need to look at all of our comparison points. I just want to get a quick read here.

Str 18* Dex 14 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 8

01 … Placeholder, Placeholder; (b) Dodge, Toughness Placeholder
02 … (b) Placeholder
03 … Power Attack
04 … +1 Str [= 19]
05 … Weapon Focus (unarmed)
06 … (b) Mobility
07 … Placeholder
08 … +1 Str [= 20]
09 … Placeholder
10 … (b) Improved Critical (unarmed)
11 … Placeholder

The Placeholder options can be filled out as you like. Here’s a complete specification, that I’ll use for our statblocks:

01 … Reactionary, Dangerously Curious; (b) Dodge, Toughness, Skill Focus (UMD)
02 … (b) Combat Reflexes
03 … Power Attack
04 … +1 Str [= 19]
05 … Weapon Focus (unarmed); (k) Barkskin
06 … (b) Mobility
07 … Dragon Style
08 … +1 Str [= 20]
09 … Dragon Ferocity
10 … (b) Improved Critical (unarmed)
11 … Spring Attack

The armed version of Cameron will drop Dragon Ferocity for Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Temple Sword). Although Temple Sword Tina went for Panther Style instead of Dragon, Core Monk Cameron could use the mobility improvement of Dragon Style so we’ll go for that.

## Comment ##

Quick comparison. We have the same number of feats as the Unchained Monk, but the build-out is a bit messed up by the slower BAB. This prevents us from grabbing Power Attack at level 1 and keeps Cameron from qualifying for Critical Focus by level 11. We’ll pick mostly the same feats, but let’s swap Toughness for Iron Will and use our left over feat slot for something nice—Skill Focus (UMD). The slower build-out would be a bit of a pain to play from level 1 and that will be obscured when we just compare the level 11 builds.

Core Monk Cameron TOC:

<#### Core Monk Cameron Build ####>
<#### Core Monk Cameron Equipment ####>
<#### Core Monk Cameron Stats: Lvl 11 Unarmed ####>
<#### Core Monk Cameron Stats: Lvl 11 Temple Sword ####>
<#### Core Monk Cameron Results Lvl 11 ####>

Joe M.

May 5, 2015, 03:39 pm

#### Core Monk Cameron Equipment ####

Since I “cheated” a bit to give Core Monk Cameron barkskin, we can just use the same purchases we used for Unarmed Oona and Temple Sword Tina. I’ll present

Lvl 11 — 82,000 gp
41,000 … Offense
24,600 … Protection
08,200 … Other Magic Gear
08,200 … Misc. (unavailable)

## Core Monk Cameron: Unarmed ##

## Core Monk Cameron: Temple Sword ##

Core Monk Cameron TOC:

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