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It just . . . well, to me it seems more of a Brawler archetype (in places) than a Monk.
This is the exact impression I had when I first heard about the unchained monk. It's a pretty big archetype for the brawler, like the sacred fist for warpriest, but I feel it's closer than the original monk.
You still have the D10 hit die, good Ref and Fort, poor Will, Full BAB. You change brawler's flurry to new flurry, knockout for style strikes, and Armor for wis to AC. Then you do a big trade of maneuver training, martial flexibility, and awesome blow for a Ki pool and ki powers. This is the unchained monk that is less MAD, as it doesn't need int for feats, and it has a better selection for it's bonus feats.It makes me wonder if they did a monk archetype for brawler would have been a better unchained monk?
Thank you JohnathanWilder for posting the Unchained Monk! Bastards at my local store bought all the copies of the Pathfinder Unchained before I could even look at the book :(
I'm slowly reading over it and noticing things that are making me... sad and pleased at the same time. I'm going to post the ones that make me sad under individual spoilers (unless related) so I don't make the post too large. I'm typing these out as I read them, so somethings might be a *12 year old chuckle* premature reaction. ;)
The monk slams his head into his enemy’s head, leaving his foe reeling. If the attack hits and the foe is of the same size or one size smaller than the monk, the monk can make a free combat maneuver check against the target of this strike (using the base attack bonus of the attack used to hit the foe). If the foe is not of the same creature type as the monk, the monk takes a –8 penalty on this check. If the check is successful, the target is staggered for 1 round. Creatures without a discernible head are not affected by this style strike (subject to GM discretion). The monk must attack with a head-butt to use this style strike.
If the target is the same size or one size smaller you get a free combat maneuver check. So I can't head butt a pixie and make a free combat maneuver? One would think if I can head butt a human and send them reeling, head butting pixie would knock it the **** out or something. But, nope, pixies and other creatures of tiny size or smaller are immune to having their head slammed into a wall of flesh-made-steel.
If the creature is of a different type the Monk takes a -8 penalty on this check. Just to be clear, this refers to type, not type + subtype right? As in, if the Monk is a humanoid and the target is a fey, the Monk takes a -8 penalty? Not as in, if the Monk is a humanoid (human) and the target is a humanoid (orc) he takes the -8 penalty? Because if it's the later, then this ability just got much worse.
By my reading, you can use head butt on any target that has a discernible anatomy. But it has absolutely no effect if the target is not your size or one size smaller. Fighting an Orc with enlarge person? Nothing happens because you don't get the CMB check, and if you don't get the CMB check, the -8 penalty is never a factor.
Whenever a monk with this ki power uses diamond body to neutralize a poison, he can instead release that poison as a ranged touch attack against a single foe within 30 feet. If the attack hits, the foe must succeed at a saving throw (using the poison’s original DC) or suffer the poison’s effects, even if it was not originally a contact poison. A monk must be at least 12th level and must possess the diamond body ki power before selecting this ki power.
By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk with this power can remove one toxin from his body as if using neutralize poison, using his monk level as his caster level. He can remove only one poison in this way per use of this ability. A monk must be at least 8th level before selecting this ki power.
No action is called out for Diamond Body so it's a standard action to use it. Reasonable because it is, I guess, casting a spell. Cobra Spit, is also a standard action as it's a ranged touch attack. So, standard action + 1 ki to attempt to neutralize the poison (it's not automatic), and then another standard action to spit it at someone. Seems... wasteful on the action economy side.
By spending 1 ki point as a swift action, the monk gains DR 2/—. At 16th level, the damage reduction increases to 4/—. At 19th level, it increases to DR 6/—. This DR lasts for 1 minute. A monk must be at least 12th level before selecting this ki power.
This really should have been dropped down to a 6th level Ki Power, increasing at 12th and 16th. At 20th level, give it the option to spend Ki to double the bonus and changed it's type to DR/chaotic and allow it to stack with Perfect Self, netting the Monk a DR of 22/chaotic, but only for 1 minute or so.
However, I guess at higher levels, the Monk can make some decent use of the feats Stalwart and Improved Stalwart.
A monk with this ability can spend 4 ki points to unleash a gout of energy in a 30-foot cone. Creatures within the cone take 20d6 points of damage of the same type as the monk’s elemental fury ki power. A Reflex save (DC = 10 + 1/2 the monk’s level + his Wisdom modifier) halves the damage. A monk must be at least 18th level and must possess the elemental fury ki power before selecting this ki power.
Why wasn't this something like an 8th or 12th level Ki Power that scaled at 1d6/level? This would have been a really fun ability to use as you're playing, but only coming online at 18th level makes it a really bad ability. At the point it comes into play, most things have huge resistances or immunities to elemental damage. Plus, with the pathetic Ki Pool size, you really can't afford to use this ability at all.
A monk with this ki power can move effortlessly across nearly any surface. Whenever the monk activates his feather balance ki power, he can also ignore all difficult terrain. In addition, while active, he can cross any solid surface, even if it would normally not support his weight. This does not allow him to walk on liquids. A monk must be at least 8th level and have the feather balance ki power before selecting this ki power.
Oh come on! Really? Can't walk on water? The number of times I've seen 'Monks' do this in Wushu martial arts movies is ridiculous!
A monk can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the monk so desires. Using this ability is a standard action that costs 4 ki points, and the monk must announce his intent to use this ability (and spend the ki points) before making the attack roll. Creatures immune to critical hits cannot be affected. Otherwise, if the attack hits and the target takes damage from the blow, the quivering palm attack succeeds. Thereafter, the monk can try to slay the victim at any time within a number of days equal to his monk level. To make such an attempt, the monk merely wills the target to die (a free action); unless the target succeeds at a Fortitude saving throw (DC = 10 + 1/2 the monk’s level + the monk’s Wisdom modifier), it dies. If the saving throw is successful, the target is no longer in danger from that particular quivering palm attack, but it can still be affected by another one at a later time. A monk can have no more than one quivering palm in effect at one time. If a monk uses quivering palm while another is still in effect, the previous one is negated. A monk must be at least 16th level before selecting this ki power.
If you're going to make it cost a standard action and 4 ki points, you need to up the DC a little. Give the Monk a bonus on his DC equal +1/2 ki points in his pool at the time of activation (before he spends his 4 ki). Got 8 points in your ki pool? Gain a +4 bonus on your next Quivering Palm DC. Might make it actually work now.
A monk within arm’s reach of a wall can use it to slow his descent by expending 1 point from his ki pool. When he uses this ability, he takes no damage from the fall (as if using feather fall), but he must be adjacent to a wall for the length of the fall (although this can be used to reduce the damage from a fall if only part of it is adjacent to a wall).
God bloody ******! Why does this still contain the same language of "arms reach of a wall"? I know it's a nit pick even stupid GMs should allow it, but what about trees? Or branches? Or tapestries? Think of this scene in the movie Rush Hour. Per the RAW, Jackie would be taking fall damage (bastard wouldn't die, obviously a high level Monk with as much damage as he's sustained over the years). Slow Fall should function as it originally did, but also have the ability to spend Ki to negate the fall, like feather fall. The language should also be changed to "When in arms reach of any object the Monk can use to slow his fall (such as a wall, tree, branches, tapestry and so on)..."
A monk with this ki power can spend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action to gain the ability to walk on water, as if under the effects of water walk. Once activated, this ability lasts for 1 minute per monk level. A monk must be at least 6th level before selecting this ki power.
Okay... this should have just been rolled into Light Steps. At 6th level the Monk has the potential to run across water... but if there is some rubble on the ground, it slows his movement. At 8th level he can take a power to ignore difficult terrain and walk across surfaces that wouldn't otherwise hold his weight (like snow), but can't walk on water.
Yeah, no, these should have been the same ability that slowly increased as you leveled.
A monk with this ki power can spend 1 point from his ki pool as a move action to grant himself a fly speed (with perfect maneuverability) equal to his base land speed. He must end his movement each round on solid ground (or some other surface that can support his weight) or fall as normal. Once activated, this ability lasts for 1 minute. A monk must be at least 8th level and have the high jump ki power before selecting this ki power.
-_- Really? This isn't flying, it's jumping. That's it. Disappointing.
A monk with this ki power can heal his own wounds as a standard action. By spending 2 points from his ki pool, he can heal an amount of damage equal to 1d8 + his monk level.
So is no one allowed to have a healing option unless you're a divine spell caster of sort or something? I guess, thechnically, it's an upgrade as the previous wholeness of body only allowed you to heal hp equal to your Monk level... now it's 1d8+your Monk level. It's still a practically worthless ability that only has a single use: prevent yourself from bleeding out.
One of the houserules I used for Monks in my game was this:
A monk may use his ki to accelerate the healing of himself or others. As a standard action, a Monk can heal 2d8+his monk level on either himself or another person; he may heal himself as a swift action if he spends 2 ki points to do so.
What this allows for, is the Monks healing potential to stay, roughly equivalent, but lower than, a Paladin's Lay on Hands (who's ability to heal starts off weaker but grows stronger and has Mercies attached to it). 2d8+level is an average of 9+level for an average of 17 at 8th level and 29 at 20th level. A Paladin's Lay on Hands is 4d6 (average 14) at 8th level and 10d6 (average 35) at 20th level, before Mercies are added in.
Also, keep in mind that Lay on Hands fuels only Lay on Hands and the Paladin's Channel, where as Ki Pool is used to fuel all of the Monks Ki abilities. So the uses per day of Wholeness of Body is very much so limited compared to that of Lay on Hands. In addition, because it's not positive energy, it can't be used to harm undead.
I wish they had done the same with Unchained.
So these are more or less the issues I have with the Monk abilities that I've read (beyond what I've stated in the past). Later today, I'm going to go over what I like about the Unchained Monk; this may include some of the things I listed here. What? I can totally like and dislike something at the same time!
I may end up typing a 'house rule' document to change the Unchained Monk more to my 'vision' of how he should work.
Whoa... I missed something nasty happening while I was typing my previous post.
Must go now, though. Seems today is one of those days that I have to 'adult'.
I dislike days like today :(
I kind of wish that most of the more benign powers (One's that cost one Ki point) were... always active. That or have a ki point left. Like light steps. I'm even tempted to say the same for the extra attack/ac bonus/movement option (Mainly extra attack). Then again, I am of the mind that if static accuracy bonuses baked into the class are never gonna happen, give the monk as many attacks as possible. That's right, allow them to take TWF. That or give me that 3.5 PrC where you got flurry iteratives at -3 instead of -5. Hahah
Also, does anyone else feel that there should be like... a Ki burst type of attack? Or rather, "If you have 1 ki point remaining, you can..." because a lot of things rely on having 1 ki point, but pretty much no one will ever spend that last point, ya know? Usually they won't, anyways. I'm always thinking, "That one ki point..."
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I'm pondering a PFS unchained monk 1/unchained rogue 4/monk +6 using Boar Style as a Dex build. Anybody got any thoughts? I can pick up mage armor as a rogue talent; at character level 5th, I'd have two/day for 4 hours each, pretty much enough to cover most adventuring days. Plus flurry makes debilitating strike easier to get off, with few attack penalties than TWF.
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Unfinished thoughts on improving some of the lackluster ki powers:
Diamond Body: Simple. Should be immunity to poison as long as the Monk has at least 1 ki remaining. That may necessitate changes to Cobra Breath, though. Perhaps, a monk with Cobra Breath can imbibe poisons (or store poisons he's attacked with, in the odd event that he is), and can then spend ki to poison his unarmed strikes and/or weapons, or to mae the ranged touch attack to spit it back at an enemy?
Diamond Resilience: I'm tempted to have it scale a little faster, but the main thing, I think, is that it should be always on while ki remains, but give the monk the option to spend a point of ki to double the DR received for a minute.
Elemental Fury: Another one that should be passive, with the ability to spend ki for a boost. Free Flaming/Frost/Corrosive/Shocking while 1 ki remains, with the ability to spend ki to temporarily scale the damage, or perhaps throw energy blasts.
Elemental Burst: I think Tels nailed this one. Available at a lower level, scales at 1d6 damage/level.
Formless Mastery: This one pretty much needs to be rewritten, since it's horrifically niche. Since the flavor is 'constantly shifting your fighting style', perhaps some variant of Martial Flexibility at the cost of ki? Perhaps limit it to picking up Style feats, but allow mixing them a la Master of Many Styles?
Ki Blocker: The Core version prevented the target from using Ki *at all* if they failed a save. I like that the Unchained version can be made to target other resource pools as well. Perhaps make it so the hit causes a save. Pass, and using their resource pool costs more. Fail, and you can't use it at all for the duration. Maybe add a power or two building off this one, allowing the monk to use it to disrupt rage or spellcasting as well?
Slow Fall: So, the neat thing about this version is that, though it costs a point of ki now, you can Slow Fall any distance from the moment you pick it up. Is that too powerful to be made passive? I'm torn between two possibilities--Core Slow Fall while ki remains, 1 ki point to fall any distance, and 2 points for Feather Fall or a Boots of the Cat effect.
Wholeness of Body: Self-Only Lay on Hands is the obvious choice. If you wanted something different, perhaps the Monk could use it to grant himself Fast Healing? The former would definitely be more powerful, but the latter is nicely thematic.
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I just realized something else that has been nagging me in the back of my head about the unchained monk that I didn't know to articulate. Until now.
Have a look at these original class features:
- Still mind
- Abundant step
- Diamond body
- Quivering palm
- Empty body
- Tongue of the sun and moon
And here some of the new ones:
- Elemental fury
- Insightful wisdom
- Ki metabolism
- Water sprint
- Furious defense
- Cobra breath
- Wind jump
Do you see what I see? The original names are beautiful. They evoke a sense of mysticism and eastern eloquence.
The new names?
Elemental fury... there's no sense of harmony, or mastery. This is the kind of thing a non-lawful barbarian would have.
Insightful wisdom... technically correct, but also uninspired. Bland.
Ki metabolism... "ki metabolism" gives you a good hint on what the ability might do. It also is clinical and (as a name) non-thematic.
Water sprint... you cannot get any more literal in a name, in complete contrast to the subtlety of the original names.
Furious defense... because that is what wise men do, they channel their inner rage and burst it forth in a flurry of defensiveness.
Cobra breath... now this is a genuinely good name, for a ninja trick.
Wind jump... yes, that is the kind of thing the master will tell his pupil: "Today, grasshopper, you will learn the mysteries of the... wiiiind juuuumpp."
To be fair, there are some okay names: flawless mind, and one touch. Where flawless mind is acceptable but not outstanding. And one touch is a great name - but also a traditionally famous name; so not something for which Paizo can claim originality or creative credit.
i will say that ki hurricane's aoo-proccing ability miiiight make it a useful partner to panther style and it's ilk. the cost is still HORRENDOUS (seriously, who thought having such high-cost powers with such a small pool was a good idea--the magus doesn't have to deal with this bullshit)
between the hurricane attacks and the panther style retributive strikes you could hit people a LOT of times. of course that means giving up dragon/tiger style since you cant take MoMS with the unchained monk...
You guys DO realize that Amulet of Mighty Fists hasn't been necessary for a monk ever right? Monks strikes count as manufactured weapons. This means that magic weapon spells work on them. greater magic weapon + permanancy (which any magic weapon shop would supply) = magical super fists. Even says this is the case right in the magic weapon spell description: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/magicWeapon.htmlI see a lot of people are still unhappy about the price of the AoMF, was anyone expecting that to be fixed in unchained?It basically was fixed in my opinion with the automatic bonus, since you can apply the bonuses to your unarmed strikes and standard clothes.You DO realize that the spell greater magic weapon, while providing an enhancement bonus, doesn't actually allow you to penetrate damage reduction as a true enhancement bonus (such as the one provided by the amulet of mighty fists) right? Even says this is the case right in the greater magic weapon spell description: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/magicWeapon.html#magic-weapon-gre ater
Outside of the lack of DR penetration, there is also the issue that, as an ongoing spell effect, it's capable of being permanently dispelled. This means a single greater dispel magic can strip you of your enhancement bonus to attack and damage in the middle of a fight and you have no way of easily recovering this. Conversely, if they were to do a targeted dispel on your amulet of mighty fists the amulet is only suppressed for 1d4 rounds, at which point it resumes functioning as normal.
You also run into the issue of needing an ever higher and higher caster level to keep pace. By the time you've got a +3 bonus, other martial might have a +4...
A monks unarmed strike inherently bypasses DR. Ki strike treats unarmed strikes as magic weapons (and eventually adamantium and lawful as well) enhancement bonus or no enhancement bonus. Also your enchanted unarmed strike is treated as a manufactured weapon. This means that it can't be dispelled just like a sword can't be dispelled if you went to a shop and had it professionally applied (though if you apply it in the field, it can be dispelled just like it would be on a sword). If you can take your sword into a shop to get an extra +1, you can bring your body in too. Amulet of mighty fists is redundant in the hands of a monk. It only serves a purpose for other classes that then take improved unarmed strike as a normal feat.
It should be noted that I don't play Society games. In our home games, you can typically just walk into a shop and purchase an extra +1. I would imagine that with society games and how much stricter they are, you have to actually find a powerful casting NPC to provide the enhancement. That can be a problem when the rest of the party can get by on treasure they find while the monk is dependent on actually finding a caster. That however is a problem the Pathfinder Society needs to deal with and has little to do with the monk itself.
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Nobody missed it. You simply cannot do it. Discounting all the OTHER reasons you cannot do it:
1.) A weapon mus be Masterwork before it can be enchanted.
2.) Your Unarmed Strike cannot be made Masterwork (it does not start off as such, and Masterwork Transformation does not affect it).
Do you REALLY think you're the first person to think of this in 6 years?
i will say that ki hurricane's aoo-proccing ability miiiight make it a useful partner to panther style and it's ilk. the cost is still HORRENDOUS (seriously, who thought having such high-cost powers with such a small pool was a good idea--the magus doesn't have to deal with this b!!%&&%%)
between the hurricane attacks and the panther style retributive strikes you could hit people a LOT of times. of course that means giving up dragon/tiger style since you cant take MoMS with the unchained monk...
You actually can take master of many styles. It's still compatible in terms of abilities replaced...Unless your talking about society play. I wonder why they disallowed ALL of the monk archetypes. MoMS dosn't seem like it would break the new monk considering the fact that the new improved flurry of blows is now much more painful to lose.
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Also your enchanted unarmed strike is treated as a manufactured weapon.
...for the purposes of spells or effects that improve or enhance natural or manufactured weapons. The problem is, the RAW is fuzzy at best and the RAI very clearly "no" as to whether a monk's unarmed strike qualifies as a manufactured weapon in this regard - it's only even potentially possible via masterwork transformation, and masterwork transformation's text requires some serious side-reading to make it fly. (The spell says, "If the target object has no masterwork equivalent, the spell has no effect." That probably means masterwork unarmed strikes can't happen, and thus you can't use Craft Magical Arms and Armor on them because you can only use that feat on masterwork items.) So your solution is fine as a houserule, but doesn't actually work as a general case.
...You guys DO realize that Amulet of Mighty Fists hasn't been necessary for a monk ever right? Monks strikes count as manufactured weapons. This means that magic weapon spells work on them. greater magic weapon + permanancy (which any magic weapon shop would supply) = magical super fists. Even says this is the case right in the magic weapon spell description: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/magicWeapon.htmlI see a lot of people are still unhappy about the price of the AoMF, was anyone expecting that to be fixed in unchained?It basically was fixed in my opinion with the automatic bonus, since you can apply the bonuses to your unarmed strikes and standard clothes.You DO realize that the spell greater magic weapon, while providing an enhancement bonus, doesn't actually allow you to penetrate damage reduction as a true enhancement bonus (such as the one provided by the amulet of mighty fists) right? Even says this is the case right in the greater magic weapon spell description: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/magicWeapon.html#magic-weapon-gre ater
Outside of the lack of DR penetration, there is also the issue that, as an ongoing spell effect, it's capable of being permanently dispelled. This means a single greater dispel magic can strip you of your enhancement bonus to attack and damage in the middle of a fight and you have no way of easily recovering this. Conversely, if they were to do a targeted dispel on your amulet of mighty fists the amulet is only suppressed for 1d4 rounds, at which point it resumes functioning as normal.
You also run into the issue of needing an ever higher and higher caster level to keep pace. By the time you've got a +3 bonus, other
Monks unarmed strikes aren't natural attacks or manufactured weapons. They only count as such for spells and some abilities. Thus you can't get a +1 to you unarmed strikes.
And a +1 sword isn't having someone cast GMW on it permanently, it's being changed to actually be a better sword.If in your house games you rule it differently to "Fix" the monk (even if you didn't realize that's what you were doing) then that's great and removes a major issue with the monk. But by the rules it's not how it works.
3PP have already fixed this problem in various ways.
Nobody missed it. You simply cannot do it. Discounting all the OTHER reasons you cannot do it:
1.) A weapon mus be Masterwork before it can be enchanted.
2.) Your Unarmed Strike cannot be made Masterwork (it does not start off as such, and Masterwork Transformation does not affect it).
Do you REALLY think you're the first person to think of this in 6 years?
I was under the impression that adding magic to a weapon automatically made it masterwork. according to Ultimate equipment on the PRD:
"All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon's magic."
If it DOES have to be masterwork first, then that IS a problem. In fact it is the only problem. we shouldn't be focused on the amulet so much as we should be focused on unarmed strikes not being eligible for the masterwork quality (or at least being an exception to the requirement the way strikes are an exception for greater magic weapon).
...You guys DO realize that Amulet of Mighty Fists hasn't been necessary for a monk ever right? Monks strikes count as manufactured weapons. This means that magic weapon spells work on them. greater magic weapon + permanancy (which any magic weapon shop would supply) = magical super fists. Even says this is the case right in the magic weapon spell description: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/magicWeapon.htmlI see a lot of people are still unhappy about the price of the AoMF, was anyone expecting that to be fixed in unchained?It basically was fixed in my opinion with the automatic bonus, since you can apply the bonuses to your unarmed strikes and standard clothes.You DO realize that the spell greater magic weapon, while providing an enhancement bonus, doesn't actually allow you to penetrate damage reduction as a true enhancement bonus (such as the one provided by the amulet of mighty fists) right? Even says this is the case right in the greater magic weapon spell description: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/magicWeapon.html#magic-weapon-gre ater
Outside of the lack of DR penetration, there is also the issue that, as an ongoing spell effect, it's capable of being permanently dispelled. This means a single greater dispel magic can strip you of your enhancement bonus to attack and damage in the middle of a fight and you have no way of easily recovering this. Conversely, if they were to do a targeted dispel on your amulet of mighty fists the amulet is only suppressed for 1d4 rounds, at which point it resumes functioning as normal.
You also run into the issue of needing an ever higher and higher caster level to keep pace. By the time you've got a +3 bonus, other
You don't.... seem to know the rules very well.
Permanency changes the duration of a spell to 'permanent' which means it's still ongoing. Spells with a duration of permanent can still be dispelled via dispel magic, greater dispel magic, mage's disjunction or similar effects.
A magical sword is created via using the feat Craft Magical Arms and Armor which permanently enhances the weapons attack and damage bonuses, but also makes the weapon more durable and harder to break.
Casting greater magic weapon and permanency is not the same thing. Fun fact, magic weapon, greater magic weapon and permanency are not spells required to create a magical weapon.
So what you are talking about is a house rule for your home campaigns.
The people posting in this thread have been playing and discussing the Monk class for years. Most things about the Monk have been discussed to death. For the most part, there is very little that can be brought to the discussion about the Monk that hasn't already been talked about.
Nobody missed it. You simply cannot do it. Discounting all the OTHER reasons you cannot do it:
1.) A weapon mus be Masterwork before it can be enchanted.
2.) Your Unarmed Strike cannot be made Masterwork (it does not start off as such, and Masterwork Transformation does not affect it).
Do you REALLY think you're the first person to think of this in 6 years?
I was under the impression that adding magic to a weapon automatically made it masterwork. according to Ultimate equipment on the PRD:
"All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon's magic."
If it DOES have to be masterwork first, then that IS a problem. In fact it is the only problem. we shouldn't be focused on the amulet so much as we should be focused on unarmed strikes not being eligible for the masterwork quality (or at least being an exception to the requirement the way strikes are an exception for greater magic weapon).
You have it backwards. Weapons found as magical weapons are automatically masterwork (which changes their cost by 300 gp, and gives you a +1 Enhancement to attack rolls if the weapon is Dispelled temporarily or you're in an Anti-Magic Field).
From the Magic Item Creation rules: " Only a masterwork weapon can become a magic weapon, and the masterwork cost is added to the total cost to determine final market value."
Nobody missed it. You simply cannot do it. Discounting all the OTHER reasons you cannot do it:
1.) A weapon mus be Masterwork before it can be enchanted.
2.) Your Unarmed Strike cannot be made Masterwork (it does not start off as such, and Masterwork Transformation does not affect it).
Do you REALLY think you're the first person to think of this in 6 years?
I was under the impression that adding magic to a weapon automatically made it masterwork. according to Ultimate equipment on the PRD:
"All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon's magic."
If it DOES have to be masterwork first, then that IS a problem. In fact it is the only problem. we shouldn't be focused on the amulet so much as we should be focused on unarmed strikes not being eligible for the masterwork quality (or at least being an exception to the requirement the way strikes are an exception for greater magic weapon).
The Core Rule Book is the Holy Grail of Pathfinder. Nothing superscedes the rules of the Core Rule Book except for FAQrrata that changes what is in the Core Rule Book. So, because Magic Item Creation is detailed in the Core Rule Book, you should always refer to the Core Rule Book when it comes to Magic Item Creation.
On creating Magic Weapons the Core Rule Book has this to say:
To create a magic weapon, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the weapon or the pieces of the weapon to be assembled. Only a masterwork weapon can become a magic weapon, and the masterwork cost is added to the total cost to determine final market value. Additional magic supplies costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic weapon—half the base price of the item based upon the item's total effective bonus.
A weapon must first be Masterwork to become a magic weapon. Incidentally, the statement that "all magic weapons are masterwork" is still correct because a weapon cannot be a magic weapon unless it is also a masterwork weapon.
Not all masterwork weapons are magical, but all magical weapons are masterwork.
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Technically, if there were some reason to think masterwork unarmed strikes could exist, then masterwork transformation would work and enchanting your masterwork unarmed strike would work like enchanting any other weapon. Unfortunately, it's circular logic at best, and not going to fly in any but the most permissive games.
Monks unarmed strikes aren't natural attacks or manufactured weapons. They only count as such for spells and some abilities. Thus you can't get a +1 to you unarmed strikes.
It's not that they count as neither. It's that they count as both.
That being said, I retract what I said about magic weapons automatically providing masterwork quality. The masterwork rule is, in fact, in the magic weapon crafting rules.
This means that we have a few simple solutions to the problem.
A: the monks unarmed strike can be affected by the masterwork spell. The problem here is that the spell talks about "masterwork equivalents". this raises the question of whether strikes have a masterwork equivalent.
B: The spell gets errated to fix the problem specificly for monks.
C: the monks strike is errated and is labeled as an exception in the class
D: The masterwork requirement gets taken away completely (seemed kind of redundant in the first place seeing as by the time you go for masterwork you have the gold for magic weapons anyway, then again, there may be side effects that I am not seeing).
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I agree heavily with Tels on Water Sprint and Light Step. The fact that they're two separate Ki powers is a rather bizarre choice, especially considering that if you want to be able to sprint through difficult terrain and walk on water, you also have to take a feat that lets you keep your balance, (which I've seen rolled in all of one module.)
On one hand, I sort of understand. You're getting a Ki Power at the same rate the Rogue gets talents, so you get quite a few of them. But on the other hand, there's a lot more rogue talents that I'd consider to be competitive choices when compared to Ki Powers as they are now.
It's been pointed out so very often thus far, but I imagine that this problem will be solved with more books adding more Ki Powers. Which, I find rather disappointing, as none of the other unchained classes feel "incomplete" in the sense that there's no real breadth of options to choose from as they removed archetypes. It's been mentioned that Qinggong Powers were added as a fairly last minute decision, and I can't imagine how limited the Unchained Monk would feel without those.
I'm honestly pretty disappointed that, after waiting quite a while to play an Unchained Monk, I'm going to have to wait even longer to play the Unchained Monk that I had in mind, as I find the current lack of choices and variation too stifling.
It's a pity, as this isn't a problem that the Brawler had at all.
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Well seems I did get in a bit of trouble, since my posts were deleted. Though honestly I wouldn't call posting a single class in full with its features 'large blocks of content'. More, it had its purpose, allowing for a stronger discussion without confusion or incomplete information about what is being talked about.
... yet I guess I should be glad I wasn't penalized in any way. Admittingly, I don't even know if the site has a penalty system in place.
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This thread exploded since I last checked on it but I wanted to comment on this from a ways back.
Why not make stunning fist one of the bonus feats? Along with punishing kick and elemental fist etc.
For some reason I feel like Stunning Fist, Punishing Kick and Elemental Fist could have been style strikes if style strikes started at level 1. How cool would that be? Stunning fist is more of an option than just something that's put on that you wish would go away and the APG's monk archetypes felt like some of them were selling Punishing Kick and Elemental Fist as Stunning Fist alternatives. Also could construct style feats that require one of them. So much unused design space.
Monks unarmed strikes aren't natural attacks or manufactured weapons. They only count as such for spells and some abilities. Thus you can't get a +1 to you unarmed strikes.It's not that they count as neither. It's that they count as both.
That being said, I retract what I said about magic weapons automatically providing masterwork quality. The masterwork rule is, in fact, in the magic weapon crafting rules.
This means that we have a few simple solutions to the problem.
A: the monks unarmed strike can be affected by the masterwork spell. The problem here is that the spell talks about "masterwork equivalents". this raises the question of whether strikes have a masterwork equivalent.
B: The spell gets errated to fix the problem specificly for monks.
C: the monks strike is errated and is labeled as an exception in the class
D: The masterwork requirement gets taken away completely (seemed kind of redundant in the first place seeing as by the time you go for masterwork you have the gold for magic weapons anyway, then again, there may be side effects that I am not seeing).
Unarmed strikes are unarmed strikes. They aren't manufactured weapons and they aren't natural weapons. Now the monk's unarmed strikes are treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. But they actually aren't either.
I agree heavily with Tels on Water Sprint and Light Step. The fact that they're two separate Ki powers is a rather bizarre choice, especially considering that if you want to be able to sprint through difficult terrain and walk on water, you also have to take a feat that lets you keep your balance, (which I've seen rolled in all of one module.)
On one hand, I sort of understand. You're getting a Ki Power at the same rate the Rogue gets talents, so you get quite a few of them. But on the other hand, there's a lot more rogue talents that I'd consider to be competitive choices when compared to Ki Powers as they are now.
It's been pointed out so very often thus far, but I imagine that this problem will be solved with more books adding more Ki Powers. Which, I find rather disappointing, as none of the other unchained classes feel "incomplete" in the sense that there's no real breadth of options to choose from as they removed archetypes. It's been mentioned that Qinggong Powers were added as a fairly last minute decision, and I can't imagine how limited the Unchained Monk would feel without those.
I'm honestly pretty disappointed that, after waiting quite a while to play an Unchained Monk, I'm going to have to wait even longer to play the Unchained Monk that I had in mind, as I find the current lack of choices and variation too stifling.
It's a pity, as this isn't a problem that the Brawler had at all.
I also agree here. water walk ,requires lvl 6 but light steps, the less mystical of the two abilities requires 8 AND another ability? That feels off to me.
I also think there is something off about the style strikes. considering their power level, I can see why they are so limited, but you get more strikes than you can actually use in combat. it makes one feel like they have an awesome ability that they can't actually use because another ability takes priority. maybe a future archetype would take care of this (though probably at the expense of ki powers).
I've been hearing a lot of comments (both in and out of this thread) that the flurry has been modified to strongly resemble the flurry from 3.5.
Now, I love this change and would hate to lose it... but...
Does anyone else find it funny that Pathfinder Unchained was said to be the book where the Devs do whatever they want without having to be concerned with backwards campatibility... and one of the changes they made to the unchained monk was to give it the 3.5 Flurry of Blows?
*Snicker*
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I agree heavily with Tels on Water Sprint and Light Step. The fact that they're two separate Ki powers is a rather bizarre choice, especially considering that if you want to be able to sprint through difficult terrain and walk on water, you also have to take a feat that lets you keep your balance, (which I've seen rolled in all of one module.)
On one hand, I sort of understand. You're getting a Ki Power at the same rate the Rogue gets talents, so you get quite a few of them. But on the other hand, there's a lot more rogue talents that I'd consider to be competitive choices when compared to Ki Powers as they are now.
It's been pointed out so very often thus far, but I imagine that this problem will be solved with more books adding more Ki Powers. Which, I find rather disappointing, as none of the other unchained classes feel "incomplete" in the sense that there's no real breadth of options to choose from as they removed archetypes. It's been mentioned that Qinggong Powers were added as a fairly last minute decision, and I can't imagine how limited the Unchained Monk would feel without those.
I'm honestly pretty disappointed that, after waiting quite a while to play an Unchained Monk, I'm going to have to wait even longer to play the Unchained Monk that I had in mind, as I find the current lack of choices and variation too stifling.
It's a pity, as this isn't a problem that the Brawler had at all.
I also agree here. water walk ,requires lvl 6 but light steps, the less mystical of the two abilities requires 8 AND another ability? That feels off to me.
I also think there is something off about the style strikes. considering their power level, I can see why they are so limited, but you get more strikes than you can actually use in combat. it makes one feel like they have an awesome ability that they can't actually use because another ability takes priority. maybe a future archetype would take care of this (though probably at the expense of ki powers).
I'm hoping they revisit the Martial Artist in future material, the Non-lawful no-ki pool monk archetype. They could focus them on the Stamina pool system and give them a bigger focus on Style Strikes.
Sadly, the impression I get is that there won't be follow-up support for the Pathfinder Unchained classes. They've not really done it for optional systems in the past, and I don't see Paizo changing things up now.
It would be awesome if I were proved wrong, but I think we're going to have to hope for a 3rd party solution here. :(
Unarmed strikes are unarmed strikes. They aren't manufactured weapons and they aren't natural weapons. Now the monk's unarmed strikes are treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. But they actually aren't either.Monks unarmed strikes aren't natural attacks or manufactured weapons. They only count as such for spells and some abilities. Thus you can't get a +1 to you unarmed strikes.It's not that they count as neither. It's that they count as both.
That being said, I retract what I said about magic weapons automatically providing masterwork quality. The masterwork rule is, in fact, in the magic weapon crafting rules.
This means that we have a few simple solutions to the problem.
A: the monks unarmed strike can be affected by the masterwork spell. The problem here is that the spell talks about "masterwork equivalents". this raises the question of whether strikes have a masterwork equivalent.
B: The spell gets errated to fix the problem specificly for monks.
C: the monks strike is errated and is labeled as an exception in the class
D: The masterwork requirement gets taken away completely (seemed kind of redundant in the first place seeing as by the time you go for masterwork you have the gold for magic weapons anyway, then again, there may be side effects that I am not seeing).
I see what your getting at now. I forgot strikes were distinct though I forget where it says that. Also the text DOES say that it's only treated that way and doesn't actually count for other purposes. That means that while masterwork COULD actually target an unarmed strike, because there is no masterwork equivalent,the spell fizzles halfway through.
There goes option A as a pre-existing work around. Now the only hope is for errata to fix it. Honestly, considering the fact that the class outright calls out the strike as manufactured, I think the original intention was that strikes could be enhanced. I think they simply forgot about the masterwork problem. As to why they didn't use unchained to fix that problem...
You actually can take master of many styles. It's still compatible in terms of abilities replaced...Unless your talking about society play. I wonder why they disallowed ALL of the monk archetypes. MoMS dosn't seem like it would break the new monk considering the fact that the new improved flurry of blows is now much more painful to lose.i will say that ki hurricane's aoo-proccing ability miiiight make it a useful partner to panther style and it's ilk. the cost is still HORRENDOUS (seriously, who thought having such high-cost powers with such a small pool was a good idea--the magus doesn't have to deal with this b!!%&&%%)
between the hurricane attacks and the panther style retributive strikes you could hit people a LOT of times. of course that means giving up dragon/tiger style since you cant take MoMS with the unchained monk...
iirc, mark specifically stated earlier in thread that UC monk is not allowed to take vanilla archetypes, even if it has the class features to replace for them.
iirc, mark specifically stated earlier in thread that UC monk is not allowed to take vanilla archetypes, even if it has the class features to replace for them.You actually can take master of many styles. It's still compatible in terms of abilities replaced...Unless your talking about society play. I wonder why they disallowed ALL of the monk archetypes. MoMS dosn't seem like it would break the new monk considering the fact that the new improved flurry of blows is now much more painful to lose.i will say that ki hurricane's aoo-proccing ability miiiight make it a useful partner to panther style and it's ilk. the cost is still HORRENDOUS (seriously, who thought having such high-cost powers with such a small pool was a good idea--the magus doesn't have to deal with this b!!%&&%%)
between the hurricane attacks and the panther style retributive strikes you could hit people a LOT of times. of course that means giving up dragon/tiger style since you cant take MoMS with the unchained monk...
That is what it says in Unchained "with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace" (the reason is that even things that trade features you still have often have bizarre side-effects, like losing Flurry and then getting Style Strikes you now can't use, Flurry doesn't change your BAB and is now thus less of a loss other than Style Strikes, etc), but I recommend playing it the way that works best for your group! Wordcountwise it would have taken tons of space, but workwise, it will take very little work to get a specific archetype ready just the way your group likes it!
Sadly, the impression I get is that there won't be follow-up support for the Pathfinder Unchained classes. They've not really done it for optional systems in the past, and I don't see Paizo changing things up now.
It would be awesome if I were proved wrong, but I think we're going to have to hope for a 3rd party solution here. :(
AH, but that was for optional systems that didn't really catch on. The new unchained classes are different. think about this from the business side of things for paizo. unlike the old monk, this new one has mix-and-match powers. this means they have a base source to write new material and therefore new books. it's also based on popularity. both prestige classes and archetypes are also alternate systems, however, prestige classes, arguably the older subsystem, gets little support compared to archetypes.
long story short, if everyone and their grandmother switches to the unchained monk, we will stop seeing base monk options in future books and see a bunch of unchained options.
Sadly, the impression I get is that there won't be follow-up support for the Pathfinder Unchained classes. They've not really done it for optional systems in the past, and I don't see Paizo changing things up now.
I find it's easy to remember optional systems that didn't get much support post-release (Words of Power), but the optional systems that really caught on don't always spring to mind because I don't think of them as optional anymore. For example the trait system from the APG was originally an optional system, but caught on and is used by lots of groups. It's also supported by dozens of books, such as the player's guides and Ultimate Campaign.
That is what it says in Unchained "with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace" (the reason is that even things that trade features you still have often have bizarre side-effects, like losing Flurry and then getting Style Strikes you now can't use, Flurry doesn't change your BAB and is now thus less of a loss other than Style Strikes, etc), but I recommend playing it the way that works best for your group! Wordcountwise it would have taken tons of space, but workwise, it will take very little work to get a specific archetype ready just the way your group likes it!iirc, mark specifically stated earlier in thread that UC monk is not allowed to take vanilla archetypes, even if it has the class features to replace for them.You actually can take master of many styles. It's still compatible in terms of abilities replaced...Unless your talking about society play. I wonder why they disallowed ALL of the monk archetypes. MoMS dosn't seem like it would break the new monk considering the fact that the new improved flurry of blows is now much more painful to lose.i will say that ki hurricane's aoo-proccing ability miiiight make it a useful partner to panther style and it's ilk. the cost is still HORRENDOUS (seriously, who thought having such high-cost powers with such a small pool was a good idea--the magus doesn't have to deal with this b!!%&&%%)
between the hurricane attacks and the panther style retributive strikes you could hit people a LOT of times. of course that means giving up dragon/tiger style since you cant take MoMS with the unchained monk...
True enough. Some of the style feats now come online earlier so doing it without the archetype is possible (though having to use the combat style master feat is a bit of a pain, particularly with crane and panther)
Anyway, while you're here, what is the reasoning behind the whole amulet of mighty fists issue vs enchanting strikes like a normal sword. The masterwork rule for enchanting items seems to be the only thing standing in the way. Is there a reason for the problem not being addressed in unchained (such as a balance issue we are not seeing) or have we misunderstood something important?
That is what it says in Unchained "with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace" (the reason is that even things that trade features you still have often have bizarre side-effects, like losing Flurry and then getting Style Strikes you now can't use, Flurry doesn't change your BAB and is now thus less of a loss other than Style Strikes, etc), but I recommend playing it the way that works best for your group! Wordcountwise it would have taken tons of space, but workwise, it will take very little work to get a specific archetype ready just the way your group likes it!iirc, mark specifically stated earlier in thread that UC monk is not allowed to take vanilla archetypes, even if it has the class features to replace for them.You actually can take master of many styles. It's still compatible in terms of abilities replaced...Unless your talking about society play. I wonder why they disallowed ALL of the monk archetypes. MoMS dosn't seem like it would break the new monk considering the fact that the new improved flurry of blows is now much more painful to lose.i will say that ki hurricane's aoo-proccing ability miiiight make it a useful partner to panther style and it's ilk. the cost is still HORRENDOUS (seriously, who thought having such high-cost powers with such a small pool was a good idea--the magus doesn't have to deal with this b!!%&&%%)
between the hurricane attacks and the panther style retributive strikes you could hit people a LOT of times. of course that means giving up dragon/tiger style since you cant take MoMS with the unchained monk...
Getting archetypes to fall in line with the Unchained classes is tricky. For example should the Barbarian archetype Invulnerable Rager's energy resistance be similar to the Energy Resistance rage power? Should it add to it? I don't know, definitely uncharted territory.
If Paizo published an unchained archetype book, it would be loved and cherished by all.
Could even have a open playtest on these new archetypes.
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At Tels's suggestion, I did a quick build out of a Core Monk for comparison in my <Testing the Unchained Monk> thread.
No surprise, the Unchained Monk looks significantly better.
Not having played a Core Monk before or experimented with the class, I *was* a bit surprised at just how poorly the straightforward build performs (even after letting it grab Qinggong powers so it could get barkskin). I can see why people didn't love it. :-O
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Getting archetypes to fall in line with the Unchained classes is tricky. For example should the Barbarian archetype Invulnerable Rager's energy resistance be similar to the Energy Resistance rage power? Should it add to it? I don't know, definitely uncharted territory.
If Paizo published an unchained archetype book, it would be loved and cherished by all.
Could even have a open playtest on these new archetypes.
They now have the keyword "unchained", so keeping with the pattern so far, we will likely get unchained magic, unchained combat and other "unchained" goodies. There is plenty of room for more scaling magical items, archetypes for the new rebuilds not to mention feats.
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You know what unchained class would be the perfect shoe-in for Unchained Combat? =D
Sadly, the impression I get is that there won't be follow-up support for the Pathfinder Unchained classes. They've not really done it for optional systems in the past, and I don't see Paizo changing things up now.
It would be awesome if I were proved wrong, but I think we're going to have to hope for a 3rd party solution here. :(
AH, but that was for optional systems that didn't really catch on. The new unchained classes are different. think about this from the business side of things for paizo. unlike the old monk, this new one has mix-and-match powers. this means they have a base source to write new material and therefore new books. it's also based on popularity. both prestige classes and archetypes are also alternate systems, however, prestige classes, arguably the older subsystem, gets little support compared to archetypes.
long story short, if everyone and their grandmother switches to the unchained monk, we will stop seeing base monk options in future books and see a bunch of unchained options.
Totally agree,
Mainstream usage of these reinvented classes will most likely produce support material.
Like other posters I wish certain elements of the Monk class were mechanically better, but overall pretty happy with the result. The Full BAB, flurry and Wuxia themed powers are a long time coming.
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At Tels's suggestion, I did a quick build out of a Core Monk for comparison in my <Testing the Unchained Monk> thread.
No surprise, the Unchained Monk looks significantly better.
Not having played a Core Monk before or experimented with the class, I *was* a bit surprised at just how poorly the straightforward build performs (even after letting it grab Qinggong powers so it could get barkskin). I can see why people didn't love it. :-O
P.S. But that also makes it all the more surprising that folks seem unhappy with the Unchained Monk. Looks like a fine class to me. I don't see much *evidence* to back up all the complaining.
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P.S. But that also makes it all the more surprising that folks seem unhappy with the Unchained Monk. Looks like a fine class to me. I don't see much *evidence* to back up all the complaining.At Tels's suggestion, I did a quick build out of a Core Monk for comparison in my <Testing the Unchained Monk> thread.
No surprise, the Unchained Monk looks significantly better.
Not having played a Core Monk before or experimented with the class, I *was* a bit surprised at just how poorly the straightforward build performs (even after letting it grab Qinggong powers so it could get barkskin). I can see why people didn't love it. :-O
"Better than one of the worst classes" is not a ringing endorsement.
We didn't just want a token effort to improve the class, we wanted something up to snuff with the more powerful martial classes. Paladin, Barbarian, Ranger, Slayer (sort of).
It does not achieve that hope. Not even close.
It has improved significantly at very low levels of optimization. It is no longer a "trap" that requires massive system mastery to make functional. But neither is it great.
P.S. But that also makes it all the more surprising that folks seem unhappy with the Unchained Monk. Looks like a fine class to me. I don't see much *evidence* to back up all the complaining.At Tels's suggestion, I did a quick build out of a Core Monk for comparison in my <Testing the Unchained Monk> thread.
No surprise, the Unchained Monk looks significantly better.
Not having played a Core Monk before or experimented with the class, I *was* a bit surprised at just how poorly the straightforward build performs (even after letting it grab Qinggong powers so it could get barkskin). I can see why people didn't love it. :-O
"Better than one of the worst classes" is not a ringing endorsement.
We didn't just want a token effort to improve the class, we wanted something up to snuff with the more powerful martial classes. Paladin, Barbarian, Ranger, Slayer (sort of).
It does not achieve that hope. Not even close.
It has improved significantly at very low levels of optimization. It is no longer a "trap" that requires massive system mastery to make functional. But neither is it great.
Agreed,
But the Unchained Monk is definitely a positive step in the right direction, at least flurry of blows is no longer flurry of misses. Disappointed with how Monk's are still plagued by MAD
How many years do you think it'll be before Pathfinder Unshackled has an Unshackled Monk made by Mark :P
How many years do you think it'll be before Pathfinder Unshackled has an Unshackled Monk made by Mark :P
You're probably looking at 2nd edition Pathfinder for that.
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P.S. But that also makes it all the more surprising that folks seem unhappy with the Unchained Monk. Looks like a fine class to me. I don't see much *evidence* to back up all the complaining.At Tels's suggestion, I did a quick build out of a Core Monk for comparison in my <Testing the Unchained Monk> thread.
No surprise, the Unchained Monk looks significantly better.
Not having played a Core Monk before or experimented with the class, I *was* a bit surprised at just how poorly the straightforward build performs (even after letting it grab Qinggong powers so it could get barkskin). I can see why people didn't love it. :-O
"Better than one of the worst classes" is not a ringing endorsement.
We didn't just want a token effort to improve the class, we wanted something up to snuff with the more powerful martial classes. Paladin, Barbarian, Ranger, Slayer (sort of).
It does not achieve that hope. Not even close.
It has improved significantly at very low levels of optimization. It is no longer a "trap" that requires massive system mastery to make functional. But neither is it great.
So show me Core builds for those classes, following the same principles I follow in my Fighter and Monk builds, and we can compare them. It may be the case that the Monk would come out more poorly in those comparisons. I don't know. But so far I haven't seen much in the way of *evidence* to support all the negativity here, nothing to establish the claim that the class is somehow fundamentally weak. Show me the *data*.
(Your TWF entry was on the right track, though the numbers were mistaken.)