| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Okay. With folks getting their first looks at Unchained, I have decided to start a new thread where we can discuss the Unchained Monk.
Whether for good, for bad, for the big things, or the little things, this is the place to let it all hang out.
For myself, I haven't seen the PDF yet. I will be getting the book (and the PDF), but I am not a subscriber, so I've got to wait. Sigh. BUT, from what folks have said . . . I'm torn.
Some things look good. Very good. I like the change to flurry of blows (mostly, I need to read it carefully to make certain) no longer having a penalty AND the UM having full BAB. I like the concept behind the additional ki powers, but dislike that the ki pool remains so small. I like the new Styles (flying kick alone promises to be awesome and I cannot wait to see (or hear) about the others).
I'm not sure, however, that bumping up the hit die to a d10 was needed . . . especially with the Will save being reduced to poor. Now, Mark Robert Jordan has said (in the BIG Pathfinder Unchained thread) that there are several new powers feeding off of Still Mind that make the monk resistant to will effects. If so, that is good. I just hope that they do not cost ki, considering how small our pool already is.
Anyway, I am going to reserve opinion until I actually get the book (or PDF) and sit down and READ the class and new abilities several times.
But until then, feel free to post your own thoughts, opinions, and critiques.
MA
EDIT: It was actually Robert Jordan who told us about Diamond Mind and Flawless Mind, not Mark. Sorry about that, Robert.
To start us off, I am going to post the review of Unchained by Dabbler. At least the parts of it that deal with the Monk.
OK, I have only had a chance to briefly look through much of the volume, and I have mainly concerned myself with the unchained monk, seeing as how I've largely been involved with monk discussions.
Let me say that conceptually, the monk is my favourite class. Sadly, the crunch of the monk has never matched the fluff or the promise, something that was clearly conceded in the decision to make it part of the unchained classes.
So what did I think of the new monk?
Well let me start by outlining what (in my opinion) the monk's major problems were:
1) MADness. The monk is the most multi-attribute dependent class in the game with no exceptions. He needs way to many good scores to function, and spreading his scores makes him suffer.
2) Enhancement. The monk's primary weapon, the unarmed strike, struggles to get enhancement. The only viable option is the amulet of mighty fists, and it suffers not just from price, but from it's total +5 limit of enhancement bonus plus properties.
Essentially, the monk's primary problem as a combat class is actually hitting and damaging his target - a pretty big problem for a combat class. This problem exists as a combination of smaller factors add up: his 3/4 BAB, his lack of enhancement, his MADness, etc. Getting through DR is problematical as well - the monk's ki-strike is useful, but not actually better than the ability to bypass DR that a magic weapon provides via it's enhancement bonus.
The monk's other problems of abilities that do not mesh well together were originally addressed in the qinggong archetype. His concept as a mobile fighter who has to stand still to fight effectively is also a big problem.
So how did Paizo do?
Well, they made some useful changes.
Full BAB - OK, I would not have recommended this, but it does ease the MADness just a little, and improves the odds to hit slightly. Minor plus.
New Flurry Mechanic - I had no issue with the old one, but the new one, well it's better if you are fighting a high-AC target, worse if you are fighting a low AC target. I would rate this a minor plus as well.
Weapon Proficiencies - AT LAST THE MONK IS GOOD WITH ALL MONK WEAPONS! OK, most of them suck, but he can use them all without blowing feats. Minor plus.
MADness - no change. The monk, other than now needing maybe slightly less Con than he did, is just as MAD as ever.
Enhancement - no change, ki-strike is the same as ever, and still not good enough.
Saves - Will save nerfed. Major minus. WTF? Paizo, guys, you had a WEAK CLASS. You said it yourselves. It makes no sense conceptually or mechanically to nerf the monk in any way. You just gave with one hand and took with the other, and that makes no sense. If you want to improve a weak class, you make it stronger, not shuffle things around.
New Ki powers - nice, well organized, but we already had some of these with the archetype. It's good to get abundent step at a level where you can actually go down the Dimensional Dervish road, but otherwise there's not much that thrills me. Abilities the monk used to have as "constant" now require ki to activate, and ki didn't get a boost so it's an even more starved resource than before. No change.
New combat abilities - some of these are pretty cool, flying kick especially as it actually addresses the monk's move/flurry inconsistency. This is a well deserved addition. Minor plus.
My overall impression...the monk is still a weak class. I'm sorry, but if you want an unarmed fighter then the brawler still pounds the monk flat and spits him out with ease where it counts - only now, the monk can't really claim to have less weaknesses than the brawler, either. It almost makes it, but the monk's biggest problems are still unresolved, and while there are some nice improvements here, there is at least one bad nerf to go with them. This was a missed opportunity, Paizo, and I'm left feeling depressed over my favourite class.
Again.
These changes really should have been thrown open to play-testing and feedback.
I'll start: Flawless Mind does not cost ki, nor do you have to pick it as a ki power. You just get it automatically.
I'll start: Flawless Mind does not cost ki, nor do you have to pick it as a ki power. You just get it automatically.
Good to hear. As I said, I'll reserve my opinion until I can actually read the class, but I am hoping for good things.
MA
I'm not sure, however, that bumping up the hit die to a d10 was needed . . .
Hit Dice are tied to Base Attack Bonus.
You cannot have a full BAB and not have a d10 HD in Pathfinder. Barbarian is the sole exception as far as Base Classes are concerned, and there are only 4 Prestige Classes which have a Hit Die higher than their BAB - Dragon Disciple, Stalwart Defender, Rage Prophet, and Mammoth Rider (and Mammoth Rider isn't even a PRD prestige class).
All 4 of these classes are also thematically based on the Barbarian (DD isn't DIRECTLY, but Barbarian is one of the best and by far the most-used classes to enter DD), with the Stalwart Defender effectively being the Anti-Barbarian; thus, it makes sense for them to follow the Barbarian's lead and have higher HD than should be afforded to their BAB.
Monk has nothing to do with the Barbarian family of classes, so by giving it full BAB, it had to receive a d10 HD.
I'm not sure, however, that bumping up the hit die to a d10 was needed . . . especially with the Will save being reduced to poor. Now,MarkRobert Jordan has said (in the BIG Pathfinder Unchained thread) that there are several new powers feeding off of Still Mind that make the monk resistant to will effects. If so, that is good. I just hope that they do not cost ki, considering how small our pool already is.
This sounds more like a brawler archetype with a will save boosting mechanic more than anything.
I like the regular monk....or, I like some of the chassis that survives the archetypes.
I like having a noncaster that doesn't have to cheat his way to a good will save. I like the idea of a person trained enough to take on any unexpected danger. Why even bother dropping the will save if you give a mechanic right back that undoes the change?
I am sure the will save mechanic runs as long as you have 1 ki, and drops when you run out... but is that the cost for full BAB? Did the monk even need that, with pummeling style covering almost all the problems with unarmed strikes and the flurry/nonflurry difference?
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not sure, however, that bumping up the hit die to a d10 was needed . . .Hit Dice are tied to Base Attack Bonus.
You cannot have a full BAB and not have a d10 HD in Pathfinder. Barbarian is the sole exception as far as Base Classes are concerned, and there are only 4 Prestige Classes which have a Hit Die higher than their BAB - Dragon Disciple, Stalwart Defender, Rage Prophet, and Mammoth Rider (and Mammoth Rider isn't even a PRD prestige class).
All 4 of these classes are also thematically based on the Barbarian (DD isn't DIRECTLY, but Barbarian is one of the best and by far the most-used classes to enter DD), with the Stalwart Defender effectively being the Anti-Barbarian; thus, it makes sense for them to follow the Barbarian's lead and have higher HD than should be afforded to their BAB.
Monk has nothing to do with the Barbarian family of classes, so by giving it full BAB, it had to receive a d10 HD.
Except the whole point of Unchained (or so it was repeatedly stated) was to do away with sacred cows like that and break the mold.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Having read it over and discussed it with my group we all REALLY like it. The new abilities are very thematic and lend themselves to roleplaying and descriptions. Really cool and I can't wait to give it a try.
For my personal home games at least I'm going to make an option where you select three of the following: d10 hp, high will save, high fort save, high ref save. Makes it a bit more customizable and you can get all sorts of monks that way.
I think I'll just stick with sohei- light armor, perfect saves, enough bonuses and item slots for bonuses that it is on par with other 3/4 BAB classes when it does standard actions/AoOs.
Throw on pummeling style, and the BAB thing is just a theoretical thing for qualifying for feats...most of the time.
Having read it over and discussed it with my group we all REALLY like it. The new abilities are very thematic and lend themselves to roleplaying and descriptions. Really cool and I can't wait to give it a try.
For my personal home games at least I'm going to make an option where you select three of the following: d10 hp, high will save, high fort save, high ref save. Makes it a bit more customizable and you can get all sorts of monks that way.
Care to talk about those new abilities? :)
MA
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just to throw alchemist's fire to the kindling, the Champion of Irori prestige class has d8 hit die, full BAB, and all good saves (granted, starts at +1 because it's a prestige class); so there's that for a precedent.
The poor base will save part doesn't bother me too much, though I am REAL interested in the unchained Still Mind stuff.
The one I was referring to there are called style strikes. You can make one per round whenever you are flurrying and learn more as you go. They are not limited in any other way that I can see.
Without giving too much away they are really cool and include examples like flying kick, defensive spin, hammerblow, head-butt (so amazing), leg sweep and more. They actively let you adjust even while flurrying to be more defensive, do more damage, inflict ailments, move, and more. We felt it was something the monk should have had all along honestly.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
The one I was referring to there are called style strikes. You can make one per round whenever you are flurrying and learn more as you go. They are not limited in any other way that I can see.
Without giving too much away they are really cool and include examples like flying kick, defensive spin, hammerblow, heat-butt (so amazing), leg sweep and more. They actively let you adjust even while flurrying to be more defensive, do more damage, inflict ailments, move, and more. We felt it was something the monk should have had all along honestly.
Is that meant to say "head-butt" or does the Unchained Monk get an ability to set his nether cheeks on fire and hit people with them?
Because that WOULD be awesome.
Overall i like it.
The secondary will save makes up for the Full BAB and HD d10 bump to me, and since Ki is still Wis driven, the Monk will have a will save that only trails behind clerics and paladins, which is still...great.
The powers that are effectively downgraded (poison immunity) have a fluff/mechanic reworking that makes me feel they stay consistent with writing and film lore/history and i'm ok with that.
The Style adder technique into Flurry options are cool, thematic and also nicely boosting. (such as a free attack that bypasses DR/Hardness during a flurry full attack as early as level 5? take that Robots.)
The various powers in the monk toolbox are reworked a bit similar to the Quingong archtype, so you don't Have to take them if desired.
Lastly, while it states in the foreword that the rewrite is extensive enough that it is the only rebuild that breaks compatibility with most archtypes, i'm ok with that also. The point of Unchained Monk was to remake it and improve it, i think it succeeded.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmm maybe information referred to by Robert Jordan is probably this post.
They do seem to be gained rather late to be useful. I'm hoping there's more stuff earlier on that hasn't got mentioned.
Is that meant to say "head-butt" or does the Unchained Monk get an ability to set his nether cheeks on fire and hit people with them?
Because that WOULD be awesome.
They do get the ability to engulf their unarmed strikes in energy, so nothing is stopping you from igniting your butt and going to town with it.
Aside from your DM that is.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm more enamored with the Electric Thrust in that case.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Behold, the ultimate martial art! Thunder... Ass... STRIKE!"
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Thunder, Thunder, THUNDER-ASSS HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Thunder, Thunder, THUNDER-ASSS HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"
Well that is all I needed to see.
Unchained monk 10/10
|
Just for kicks, I converted a Dragon Style monk I use for theorycrafting (built and compared using the DPR Olympics "rules") to the Unchained version. Given that level 10 is actually one of the levels where the core monk has more attacks than the Unchained one does, I thought it would make a good comparison.
At AC 24, the assumed AC for CR 10, the Unchained monk's DPR was more than 8 points higher. At AC 23, that advantage had dropped to only 3 points, at 22 they're roughly even. The AC had to be 3 points lower than the "typical" AC for a CR 10 encounter for the old flurry to be the better deal.
Just for kicks, I converted a Dragon Style monk I use for theorycrafting (built and compared using the DPR Olympics "rules") to the Unchained version. Given that level 10 is actually one of the levels where the core monk has more attacks than the Unchained one does, I thought it would make a good comparison.
At AC 24, the assumed AC for CR 10, the Unchained monk's DPR was more than 8 points higher. At AC 23, that advantage had dropped to only 3 points, at 22 they're roughly even. The AC had to be 3 points lower than the "typical" AC for a CR 10 encounter for the old flurry to be the better deal.
Does that include the style strike? How does your Unchained Monk do with elbow smash or hammerblow on the first attack?
Considering the nickname 'flurry of misses' I presume this is a good thing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Considering the nickname 'flurry of misses' I presume this is a good thing.
Considering the nerf to Will, it isn't. Paizo flubbed again.
|
|
Does that include the style strike? How does your Unchained Monk do with elbow smash or hammerblow on the first attack?Just for kicks, I converted a Dragon Style monk I use for theorycrafting (built and compared using the DPR Olympics "rules") to the Unchained version. Given that level 10 is actually one of the levels where the core monk has more attacks than the Unchained one does, I thought it would make a good comparison.
At AC 24, the assumed AC for CR 10, the Unchained monk's DPR was more than 8 points higher. At AC 23, that advantage had dropped to only 3 points, at 22 they're roughly even. The AC had to be 3 points lower than the "typical" AC for a CR 10 encounter for the old flurry to be the better deal.
I passed on using a style strike for the comparison, because there was a good chance that the first round would be flying kick, and only later rounds would include hammerblow (which was indeed the second one I chose). Both monks used ki for an extra attack and activated Elemental Fist for +3d6 acid on the first swing of the flurry.
One of the major benefits - which might be overlooked without giving some thought to it - to having the higher BAB is that, when you load additional bonuses onto a specific attack (Elemental Fist or Stunning Fist, Dragon Style's bonus to damage on the first attack of a full attack, hammerblow, etc.), you're more likely to actually connect with the strike and get all those other bonuses into play. (It also helped that having a full BAB and d10 HD meant I could legally swap Toughness for Weapon Focus at 1st level.) A lot of why people hate Stunning Fist is that you have to declare it before you attack and monk flurries are notoriously unreliable when it comes to landing any specific attack; the greater reliability of the first attack in the flurry (with all its bonus damage) had a lot to do with why the advantage for the Unchained monk was so great against the higher AC levels.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Will save bonus is lower, but that was always going to be one of the monk's better saves anyway. Add in the new Will save benefits that nobody has bothered to wait and examine before declaring a flub? Sounds like Chicken Little's been running amok again.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
From what I'm hearing will saves is the only Nerf. On a class where wisdom is important. That has abilities that help with will save related status effects. And potentially spell resistance. And can potentially become immune to some will save related status effects.
Will save bonus is lower, but that was always going to be one of the monk's better saves anyway. Add in the new Will save benefits that nobody has bothered to wait and examine before declaring a flub? Sounds like Chicken Little's been running amok again.
Those are more a matter of too little, too late.
Diamond Mind sounds incredible (1 point as a Swift to remove a Fear effect, 2 to do it even when Frightened or Panicked), and it comes in at 6th. Reasonable level.
However, the other power mentioned, Flawless Mind, lets you roll twice and take the better of any Will saves...which is great, but not for anyone who doesn't play up to 19th level.
Unless there are others nobody mentioned, the Will department got a solid nerf.
And it actually exacerbates the Ki Pools are incredibly frickin' small" problem quite a bit, far as I can tell.
Those are my main gripes.
That and Stunning Fist is both still ALWAYS going to be taking space on your sheet, and still didn't get a buff.
Will save bonus is lower, but that was always going to be one of the monk's better saves anyway. Add in the new Will save benefits that nobody has bothered to wait and examine before declaring a flub? Sounds like Chicken Little's been running amok again.Those are more a matter of too little, too late.
Diamond Mind sounds incredible (1 point as a Swift to remove a Fear effect, 2 to do it even when Frightened or Panicked), and it comes in at 6th. Reasonable level.
However, the other power mentioned, Flawless Mind, lets you roll twice and take the better of any Will saves...which is great, but not for anyone who doesn't play up to 19th level.
Unless there are others nobody mentioned, the Will department got a solid nerf.
And it actually exacerbates the Ki Pools are incredibly frickin' small" problem quite a bit, far as I can tell.
Those are my main gripes.
That and Stunning Fist is both still ALWAYS going to be taking space on your sheet, and still didn't get a buff.
Stunning Fist did get a buff if you use the Stamina Pool system.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Cmon guys I'm a little disappointed in what I read here. Because will is lowered people seem to want to rubbish the changes. Let it go. There should be no class that gets everything. From the sounds of it (no PDFs yet) A full bab, two good saves, +1 jp/ level (on average), new mechanics for martial style, the monk gets plenty. His will save is still going to be ok since he'll have a good wisdom, and in the end a difference of good to poor is +6, pretty trivial in the whole bonus scheme. I think it addresses all the issues just fine and I'm looking forward to it. Perhaps it's the other classes that need saves nerfed- I'm looking at you mr +CHA to saves paladin.
If you use Stamina, and If you grant non-Fighters access, and If there's not a feat tax required in granting non-Fighters access.
's three ifs. Maybe more, depending on how good the Stamina Stunning Fist is. I recall mention that it let you decide to use it after the hit?
Yeah, that's all it does. Lets you decide to use it after the hit.
Like I said in the other thread, across all my Monks (Let me count them...Navorak, Sun Xiao, Anzir Jumsai, Shao Jian, Sieg Alfbrecht, Tai Leng, and Zuzhou Cheng...seven of them. And Sun Xiao has had 4 different builds just by himself.), 6 characters and 9 builds of which have Stunning Fist, I have had Stunning Fist work a whopping...three times. Ever.
Why? Because the save DC is HORRID. Those three times were ALL from Sun Xiao, who in his original incarnation had GODLIKE rolled stats (18 16 14 14 16 12), and those were all close run things anyway.
|
I think I'll just stick with sohei- light armor, perfect saves, enough bonuses and item slots for bonuses that it is on par with other 3/4 BAB classes when it does standard actions/AoOs.
Throw on pummeling style, and the BAB thing is just a theoretical thing for qualifying for feats...most of the time.
The only bad thing about Sohei is that it doesn't stack with Drunken Master. *sigh* (And by mid levels a sohei's AC would be considerably higher without armor - though Brawling is nice.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Str 15, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 7 That is a 20 point buy
Str 15, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 7 That is a 25 point buy
That is before race modifiers. Boost str at level 4 and wis at level 8.
Starting AC 14 low, Attack +5 med. Not that bad. Take crane style and by level four AC 19, High, Attack +7 Med. The monk was not that bad, a bit limited in build but not bad.
I like what I am hearing about the new monk. It sounds like a great first four levels to take before I go magus.
I am curious about the Unchained Monk myself, but I won't see it until the hardcover comes out.
master arminas, remember years ago when we had lengthy discussions on these forums about what the monk should be? I learned then that I will not get the monk I wanted, because my views differed too much from the majority. Pathfinder roughly categorizes the character classes as full BAB martials, 3/4 BAB support, and 1/2 BAB spellcasters. The Core Rulebook monk is a 3/4 BAB martial, and most people wanted to correct that to full BAB martial, while I wanted a 3/4 BAB support.
Does the Unchained Monk have any interesting new support abilities?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Except the whole point of Unchained (or so it was repeatedly stated) was to do away with sacred cows like that and break the mold.
Except that's not a "sacred cow" at all.
PAIZO created that rule as a way to make classes work better.
Before that Wizards & Sorcerers has d4 and 1/2 BAB, other classes had d6 and 1/2 BAB, Rogues and Bards had d6 and 3/4 BAB, Monks, Clerics, and Druids had d8 and 3/4 BAB, Rangers had a d8 and Full BAB, Fighters, and Paladins had d10 and Full BAB, and Barbarians had d12 and Full BAB (rangers got upped to d10 in 3.5; in 3rd they had a d8).
Pathfinder streamlined things and made characters bulkier by going d6+1/2 BAB, d8+3/4 BAB, d10+Full BAB, with Barbarians being the sole base-class exception.
Most of, or pretty much ALL, the "Sacred Cows" Unchained is supposed to break are leave-overs from 3.5 - things like how spells are handled, how combat works, etc.
I am curious about the Unchained Monk myself, but I won't see it until the hardcover comes out.
master arminas, remember years ago when we had lengthy discussions on these forums about what the monk should be? I learned then that I will not get the monk I wanted, because my views differed too much from the majority. Pathfinder roughly categorizes the character classes as full BAB martials, 3/4 BAB support, and 1/2 BAB spellcasters. The Core Rulebook monk is a 3/4 BAB martial, and most people wanted to correct that to full BAB martial, while I wanted a 3/4 BAB support.
Does the Unchained Monk have any interesting new support abilities?
I remember. And I doubt (seriously doubt) I'm going to get the monk I want either. Don't get me wrong, the Unchained Monk has some good things (from what I've heard about it). But (and there is always a but), I also don't like some of things I'm hearing.
MA
So, a few questions since I don't have the pdf:
--How many ki power does the monk get?
--Are they as varied or significant as rage powers, hexes and arcanas?
--does it still have bonus feats? how many?
--how does style strykes work?
--What monk class features became ki powers?
--what changed in the flurry?
I could think of more later but these would help me understand the discussion better. thanks
|
|
Does the Unchained Monk have any interesting new support abilities?
A couple. Ki guardian allows the monk to spend ki points to make saving throws against AoE or multiple target effects on behalf of his allies; insightful wisdom allows the monk to spend 2 ki as an immediate action to allow an ally to reroll an attack or saving throw.
A couple. Ki guardian allows the monk to spend ki points to make saving throws against AoE or multiple target effects on behalf of his allies; insightful wisdom allows the monk to spend 2 ki as an immediate action to allow an ally to reroll an attack or saving throw.Does the Unchained Monk have any interesting new support abilities?
I do like those . . . I'd like them better if the monk had more than 1/2 his monk levels + Wisdom bonus in his ki pool. :(
MA
I'm inclined to wait until I can read the class on d20 or get the book myself before I really delve too much more into the UM. I'm not opposed to hearing more, but I want to try and avoid forming an opinion until then.
Can I duplicate the Maneuver Master archetype with the Unchained Monk?
No, No archetypes work with the Unchained monk. This is why I view the Unchained monk not as a monk, but as it's own separate class. The other three are close enough to be archetypes or alternate classes. I think the closest you could say is it's the Hybrid class of Monk, maybe the brother to the brawler.
|
|
So, a few questions since I don't have the pdf:
--How many ki power does the monk get?
One every two levels, starting at level 4.
--Are they as varied or significant as rage powers, hexes and arcanas?
I would say yes. Several are abilities that used to be baked into the class (slow fall, quivering palm, abundant step), others are new, like the ki guardian and insightful wisdom powers I mentioned before. There are a bunch available. (They make me wish there was an Extra Ki Power feat, but that seems to be an oversight at this point.)
--does it still have bonus feats? how many?
Yep. This works pretty much exactly like it did before.
--how does style strykes work?
You learn one at 5th level, and another one every four levels after. They are usable only during a flurry, and only once per flurry until 15th level. Examples include flying kick (move up to your fast movement bonus before making an unarmed attack) and hammerblow (deal your unarmed damage die/dice twice before adding Strength modifier and other bonuses).
--What monk class features became ki powers?
Slow fall (1 ki, any distance), high jump, wholeness of body (1d8+level healing), diamond body (1 ki, acts as neutralize poison, available at 8th level), abundant step (available at 8th level), diamond soul (2 ki, activated as a swift action for level in rounds, available at 12th level), quivering palm (4 ki, no daily limit, available at 16th level), empty body (available at 4th level).
--what changed in the flurry?
Flurry now simply grants an additional attack at your highest BAB. It is not compatible with two-weapon fighting, but also has no restrictions against using a weapon two-handed for extra damage. You get another extra attack at 11th level.