Sajan Gadadvara

thatcheriliff's page

Organized Play Member. 79 posts (110 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist. 7 Organized Play characters. 1 alias.


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Liberty's Edge

WANT: Skinwalker (or some other cool race boon)

HAVE: All Kinds of Boons. Private message me for offers.

Liberty's Edge

lemeres wrote:

...why wouldn't you be able to get power attack?

As long as you meet the prerequisites (13 str, +1 BAB), you can always get it.

And power attack doesn't care if you are using strength or dexterity really. It just does the extra damage, and x1.5 extra damage if you two hand.

My friend is mainly concerned about the bolded text below:

Power Attack wrote:

You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.

When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.

You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

Liberty's Edge

With the new FAQ that let's you add 1 1/2 times your dex to damage with a two-handed weapon, my question is this:

If I am an Unchained Rogue using an Elven Curve Blade in two hands, can I use Power Attack as well, as long as I meet the prerequisites to get the feat?

I am pretty sure it works just fine, but my friend insisted on posting on the message boards to get a more definitive answer.

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whew wrote:

Guide to Organized Play page 24:

Quote:

All potions, scrolls, wands, and other consumables are

made by clerics, druids, or wizards in Pathfinder Society
Organized Play. The only exceptions are spells that are not
on the cleric, druid, or wizard spell list. For example, a
scroll of lesser restoration must be purchased as a 2nd-level
scroll off the cleric spell list and may not be purchased as
a 1st-level scroll off the paladin spell list.

Thanks everyone that clears it up

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So this is a pretty straight forward question, but I cannot find the ruling anywhere.

Greater Invisibility can be cast by a summoner at 5th level as a 3rd level spell. It can also be cast by a Wizard at 7th level as a 4th level spell. Which one do I use for buying a wand?

Specifically for PFS play, can I buy a wand of Greater Invisibility at caster level 5 for 11,250 gp (the cost of a level 3 wand)?

Can someone post a link to the ruling on this?

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LoneKnave wrote:

Well, if you are going WHW anyway, you may want to use weapon finesse.

You could VMC Magus for swashbuckler stuff+grab a level of inspired swashbuckler+possibly go into EK. It'd be a high level, very feat intensive build, but you could control the battlefield pretty effectively with high DEX AoOs that grapple (and hence, stop your enemies in their tracks), and also deliver a few touch attacks while you are at it.

Well I am working on a Brawler (Strangler) and WHW build. Pretty neat actually. Its mostly Brawler. The constrict and hair grab combined with the brawler's Strangle works out pretty well. And the CMB is pretty high. Just trying to iron out how a few of the mechanics works with the WHW.

Liberty's Edge

Archaeik wrote:

Took me a moment to figure out you are asking if you can apply the the SA to the Constrict despite it not being a 'grapple check to damage or pin'.

RAW, I'd say no, based on my statement above. On top of that, Constrict is even its own action.

RAI, I'd say no. Even UMR Constrict seems to be disqualified. Also, I don't think you'd normally apply SA of any kind to either version of Constrict, as there's not an attack roll.

On the other hand Strangle(Ex) applies to every grapple check where you choose the "damage" or "pin" option. This is up to 3 times per round if you have both Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler.
Strangle will not apply to a roll that initiates a grapple.

Also WHW Constrict is a swift action. (this was errata, but even what you quoted says swift)

How would you get 3 times per round to damage or pin? Even though you can make "3 grapple checks", aren't you still limited to 2 checks total per round to "damage, move, or pin" with Greater Grapple? Rapid Grappler doesn't write that it increases this limit/round.

Greater Grapple wrote:
You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.
Rapid Grappler wrote:
Whenever you use Greater Grapple to successfully maintain a grapple as a move action, you can then spend a swift action to make a grapple combat maneuver check.

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1 person marked this as a favorite.
Sin of Asmodeus wrote:
I'd believe it'd stack, yes.

What would be the reasoning for that? The hair attack doesn't normally deal plus strength, it just says that it deals plus intelligence. And the agile property lets you apply dex in place of strength. Wouldn't that mean that Agile, although hair qualifies for use with it as a natural attack that works with weapon finesse, wouldn't do anything?

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3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

If you have an Amulet of Mighty Fists with the Agile property, does the Witch's Hair add both Intelligence and Dexterity both to damage? Hero Lab says that it does and calculates it in but I'm not quite sure it works like that.

Relevant Text:

Agile wrote:

This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.

Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.

Hair wrote:
At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet. The hair deals 1d4 points of damage (1d3 for a Small witch) plus the witch’s Intelligence modifier.

Liberty's Edge

Would the White-Haired Witch's Constrict ability work with the Strangler Brawler's Strangle ability? How would those mechanics work? For Example: I attack as a standard action and hit, I then get a free grapple attempt and succeed, automatically Constricting...do i get Strangle damage too? How many times can Strangle be capitalized on in a round to get the most damage possible out of it?

Constrict wrote:
At 2nd level, when the white-haired witch’s hair successfully grapples an opponent, it can begin constricting her victim as a swift action, dealing damage equal to that of its attack.
Strangle wrote:
At 1st level, a strangler deals +1d6 sneak attack damage whenever she succeeds at a grapple check to damage or pin an opponent. The strangler is always considered flanking her target for the purpose of using this ability. This damage increases by +1d6 at 2nd, 8th and 15th levels.

Liberty's Edge

DM_Blake wrote:
thatcheriliff wrote:

So theoretically I could use a move action to maintain the grapple and do damage, then release the grapple as a free action, then attack the target again with my standard action to deal damage, then get a free grab attempt and constrict to do damage again? So 3 instances of damage I could get off in a round?

EDIT: Or 4 instances of damage in a round with BAB +6? Attack one target, grab, constrict, release grapple, attack again, grab, constrict?

Sure, but you don't even have to release.

At BAB 6, you Attack+GRAB+Constrict, then Attack+GRAB but you cannot constrict twice because it's a swift Action and you only get one Swift action per round.

But doing that, you end your turn with two enemies grappled.

At the start of your next turn, you must maintain those grapples or release them - if you don't yet have Grater Grapple you MUST release at least one, but you could try to maintain one grapple, or you could release both and then do your TWO attacks/GRABS/ONE constrict again.

If I wanted to do the 3 instances of damage to one target though I would have to release correct? Also do you have a link to the FAQ you mentioned? Want to make sure I have these rules down for PFS play

EDIT: And since it works like monster grab, i get +4 to the check correct?

Liberty's Edge

DM_Blake wrote:

Armpit hair? Really? As if manga-hair-witch isn't weird enough, you had to with armpit hair?

You asked about a gajillion questions, so I'll try to cover them all:

Can one creature grapple multiple targets? Yes.
Can the White haired witch make more than one grapple with her hair? Yes
For instance, Can the hair on her head grapple one target, and the hair under her armpit grapple another? Yuck. Or you could just use some head hair for one grapple and some other head hair for the other grapple. If you're a Tolkein hobbit, you could probably use foot hair. The game doesn't care where the hair is. Yes, you could even use that hair if you want.
Obviously it would be restricted to the number of attacks she has. Correct.
Can I grab on an AoO? Yes. It says it's a Free action but there is a FAQ saying it works like the monster ability Grab which has been FAQ'd to work off-turn.
So with Combat Reflexes, Dex 18, and BAB +6, could I grapple 6 targets (as long as circumstances allow it)? Yes.
How would these mechanics work? On your turn, you have two attacks. If both hit different targets, you GRAB them (free grapple attempt). During the enemies' turns, they provoke and you attack, hit, and GRAB 4 more times for a total of 6 grappled foes. Simple as that. When it's your next turn, you can pick one of them to maintain the grapple if you want to, but you'll have to release all the others - you can only maintain one grapple as a Standard action.

If so, using Greater Grapple, can a Witch maintain more than one grapple at a time since it only requires a move action and she can make two checks in a round? Yes.
Are both the checks together considered a move action or is each its own separate move action? Each check is its own move action.
In other words, can I make both checks as part of one move action and then have a standard action left? No.

With Greater Grapple and the Constrict Ability, can a white-haired witch basically do 4 instances of damage? There is no synergy with the witch's version of...

So theoretically I could use a move action to maintain the grapple and do damage, then release the grapple as a free action, then attack the target again with my standard action to deal damage, then get a free grab attempt and constrict to do damage again? So 3 instances of damage I could get off in a round?

EDIT: Or 4 instances of damage in a round with BAB +6? Attack one target, grab, constrict, release grapple, attack again, grab, constrict?

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2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Can one creature grapple multiple targets? I am currently working on a Witch (White-haired) and Brawler (Strangler) combination. Can the White haired witch make more than one grapple with her hair? For instance, Can the hair on her head grapple one target, and the hair under her armpit grapple another? The witch does not gain the grappled condition and there is no mention of "how much" hair is needed to grapple a target. Obviously it would be restricted to the number of attacks she has. Can I grab on an AoO? So with Combat Reflexes, Dex 18, and BAB +6, could I grapple 6 targets (as long as circumstances allow it)? How would these mechanics work?

If so, using Greater Grapple, can a Witch maintain more than one grapple at a time since it only requires a move action and she can make two checks in a round? Are both the checks together considered a move action or is each its own separate move action? In other words, can I make both checks as part of one move action and then have a standard action left?

With Greater Grapple and the Constrict Ability, can a white-haired witch basically do 4 instances of damage? Constrict as swift action when maintaining the grapple, and the damage resulting as part of the two checks for maintaining, and using a standard action to attack the target?

Relevant Text:

White Hair (Su) wrote:

At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet. The hair deals 1d4 points of damage (1d3 for a Small witch) plus the witch’s Intelligence modifier. In addition, whenever the hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity, using her Intelligence modifier in place of her Strength modifier when making the combat maneuver check. When a white-haired witch grapples a foe in this way, she does not gain the grappled condition.

At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, a white-haired witch’s hair adds 5 feet to its reach, to a maximum of 30 feet at 20th level.

The hair cannot be sundered or attacked as a separate creature.

In addition, a white-haired witch further improves her ability to control her hair as she progresses in level, gaining the following abilities:

Constrict (Ex): At 2nd level, when the white-haired witch’s hair successfully grapples an opponent, it can begin constricting her victim as a swift action, dealing damage equal to that of its attack.

Trip (Ex): At 4th level, a white-haired witch who successfully strikes a foe with her hair can attempt a combat maneuver check to trip the creature as a swift action.

Pull (Ex): At 6th level, a white-haired witch who successfully strikes a foe with her hair can attempt a combat maneuver check to pull the creature 5 feet closer to her as a swift action.

Strangle (Ex): At 8th level, when the white-haired witch’s hair is grappling with an opponent, that creature is considered strangled, and cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components.

This ability replaces hex.

Greater Grapple wrote:
You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.

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Mulgar wrote:

guide to pfs play page 23.

can't buy partially charged wands

Thank you

Liberty's Edge

Really simple question I can't find the answer to.

In Pathfinder Society Play, are you allowed to buy wands with less than 50 charges for a reduced price? Whether the answer is yes or no, can someone post a link to rules text? Thanks.

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Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Nice that they made that clarification FAQ yesterday...but at original post it was still unclarified....But Yes you lose the Horn Feat.

Quote:
However, any other effects that would increase the multiplier to your Strength bonus on damage rolls (such as the two-handed fighter archetype's overhand chop) do not affect your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls.
You could bump the Str to 13 to get Power Attack but Horn and Dragon Style Feats still apply only to Str Builds since they increase the multiplier to the STR bonus on Damage rolls.

Yeah I'm going to drop the Horn feat, it was a bonus monk feat anyway. I'll see what else I can grab instead.

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kestral287 wrote:

Shouldn't that be Murder of Hobos?

Or a Murder of Murder Hobos.

** spoiler omitted **

I like that: "A Murder of Murder Hobos" ... I'll have to bring that up to the guys

Liberty's Edge

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:
Power attack wrote:

Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.

When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.

You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

Horn of the Criosphinx wrote:

Prerequisite(s): Base attack bonus +6 or monk level 6th.

Benefit(s): Whenever you make a successful charge attack while wielding a two-handed weapon in both hands, add two times your Strength bonus to the damage roll.

Normal: A character wielding a two-handed weapon adds 1-1/2 times her Strength bonus to damage rolls.

Special: A monk can use this feat as long as he is wielding a two-handed weapon or both his hands are empty.

Note: A monk can take any of these feats as bonus feats at the indicated levels. To benefit from the feats, monks must have both hands free and capable of delivering an unarmed strike.

Just cause you have an ability that adds Dex to damage does NOT mean it replaces the words STR in all feats you take.

OP wrote:
I apply dex in place of strength on attacks, therefore if an effect causes me to apply 2x str, I apply 2x dex instead. Same as if I wield a weapon 2 handed you normally add 1 1/2 str mod. With elven curve blade and finesse training I'd add 1 1/2 my dex mod. Pretty sure it's the same
...

Its Official

FAQ DEX TO DAMAGE

Liberty's Edge

Mark Seifter wrote:
thatcheriliff wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Claxon wrote:
GM Hills wrote:
Just because they are different rogues does not make them different abilities. It is the same ability, simply from a different source. The bold text specifically says that they can not have multiple penalties at the same time. You clearly see that this is an issue in the rules as written, because you put it in bold. You worries are accurate. You can not stack multiple debilitating injuries of any sort from yourself or other sources. Don't need to cite anything because it is written in the ability.

While not completely wrong, read Mark Seifter's comment above. It does allow for a kind of stacking, in the sense that the rogues can increase the duration and each rogue can benefit from their own personal increased bonuses if a target has the conditioned (and they successful apply an attack with debilitating injury).

But without Mark's statement, we couldn't know that to be the case and the situation the OP was worried about could happen with one rogue's bonus being snatched by another.

However, it is still possible that if the rogue's don't play nicely that they could attempt to apply different kinds of debilitating strikes and invalidate the previous one.

Yeah, if they don't play nicely, they can mess with each other, but if they do play nicely...well, they can pretty easily get those penalties to stick, even without an iterative or TWF. Beware coordinated teams of bandits!
That makes sense. Its good to know because me and my friends are all playing Unchained Rogue variant builds at Gen Con this year :)
Oh, if you're actually going for something like that, here's my favorite advanced strategy: Once you discern the initiative order, consider having whoever goes right before the big bad switch over your debilitation from AC to attack bonus or no-five-foot steps with her last attack. Then, after the big bad has to deal with the penalties that matter on its own turn,...

Thats a really good idea. So far we have

Tengu Monk (Unchained) 1 / Rogue (Unchained) 4
-Unarmed Strikes and Natural Attack Nonlethal Build
Tengu Cavalier (Emissary) 1 / Rogue (Unchained,Scout,Swashbuckler) 4
-Riding and Charging on a wolf companion with spirited charge
Tengu Gunslinger 1 / Rogue (Unchained,Rake) 4
-Intimidating and Gun Twirling Pistol User
Tengu Inquisitor/Rogue mix (don't remember how his build was exactly)
Tengu Magus 2 / Rouge (Unchained,Counterfeit Mage) 3
-Shocking Grasp + Wand Wielder

I'm excited. We should be 6th or 7th level with these characters by Gen Con. We are all Tengus calling ourselves the "Murder Hobos". Make sure you look for us! Haha

Liberty's Edge

Mark Seifter wrote:
Claxon wrote:
GM Hills wrote:
Just because they are different rogues does not make them different abilities. It is the same ability, simply from a different source. The bold text specifically says that they can not have multiple penalties at the same time. You clearly see that this is an issue in the rules as written, because you put it in bold. You worries are accurate. You can not stack multiple debilitating injuries of any sort from yourself or other sources. Don't need to cite anything because it is written in the ability.

While not completely wrong, read Mark Seifter's comment above. It does allow for a kind of stacking, in the sense that the rogues can increase the duration and each rogue can benefit from their own personal increased bonuses if a target has the conditioned (and they successful apply an attack with debilitating injury).

But without Mark's statement, we couldn't know that to be the case and the situation the OP was worried about could happen with one rogue's bonus being snatched by another.

However, it is still possible that if the rogue's don't play nicely that they could attempt to apply different kinds of debilitating strikes and invalidate the previous one.

Yeah, if they don't play nicely, they can mess with each other, but if they do play nicely...well, they can pretty easily get those penalties to stick, even without an iterative or TWF. Beware coordinated teams of bandits!

That makes sense. Its good to know because me and my friends are all playing Unchained Rogue variant builds at Gen Con this year :)

Liberty's Edge

Mark Seifter wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Claxon wrote:

You can never stack anything of the same source.

In this case, Debilitating Injury would be a source. Even though different rogues might attempt the debilitating injury, they cannot stack.

Different rogues can all pick the same debilitating injury and stack durations, but they won't increase the penalties (and they can't pick different ones). However, if more than one rogue is contributing to the duration, I asked Jason who counts as "the rogue" for the purpose of the bigger penalty, and he said all of them do, each using their own personal bigger penalty if they aren't the same.
That makes a lot more sense, you should issue an FAQ about that. Because without these statements, by the rules we have that wouldn't be how it works.
The rules we have are ambiguous; that's why I had to go ask Jason when I saw them. For now, there's my unofficial messageboard post to reveal intent. This will need more FAQ clicks to become a FAQ though. Part of getting a FAQ every week is that it makes it feel more like an internalized weekly routine and responsibility and makes it easier to get everyone to work on 'em, but part of that deal is we don't do more. As easy as this one is to make (since I have a strong suspicion that Jason will say the same thing again, and we'll all agree), I can't replace a more frequently asked question for this one.

Off topic from this original post, but do you have any "unofficial messageboard post" to reveal intent (or just your opinion) on 1.5x Dex to damage when two-handing an Elven Curve Blade? That post has over a hundred FAQ posts I think and no one completely agrees on it. (I'm in favor of 1.5x Dex) lol

Liberty's Edge

Claxon wrote:

You can never stack anything of the same source.

In this case, Debilitating Injury would be a source. Even though different rogues might attempt the debilitating injury, they cannot stack.

Isn't the rogue the source? Therefore the two debilitating injuries are coming from two different sources? I just feel like ruling that way wouldn't make sense as far as player interaction would go. Everyone would constantly be screwing the other person over.

Can someone explain how Case 1 and Case 2 would work then/

In Case 1, would Rogue B just extend Rogue A's debilitation by more rounds? (Since they are the same source?) Who gets the -4 bonus in that case? Both of them? The most recent one who struck? The one who initially applied the injury, and who's "source" is being extended?

EDIT: Was writing this before I saw Mark's post

Liberty's Edge

Claxon wrote:

You can never stack anything of the same source.

In this case, Debilitating Injury would be a source. Even though different rogues might attempt the debilitating injury, they cannot stack.

So would I be correct then that in Case 2, Rogue B would override Rogue A and make his debilitation useless?

Liberty's Edge

I mean its possible I'm wrong, but would prefer to have a more in detailed answer of why I'm wrong, supported by previous examples, other rulings, FAQ, etc.

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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
No... that would be disgusting. Every party would have a three rogue strike team.

Can you quote any FAQ or rules text to explain why different rogues' abilities wouldn't work?

If it wouldn't work, what would happen in Case 1 and Case 2?

In Case 2, would Rogue B's debilitating injury replace Rogue A's debilitating injury? That wouldn't seem fair to Rogue A who now loses his AC bonus from his own ability.

To me it seems like the rules are written to allow injuries from different rogues to stack but not from the same rogue. Two separate abilities from two separate characters, each of which cannot stack with itself. Otherwise characters and parties would constantly be in conflict and the game would be taking away reward for smart combat decisions from the individual player because of the stupidity of a different player (As in a player who knows that he needs to lower the AC of an opponent for himself applies Bewildered, just to have another rogue come buy and apply Hampered so that the original rogue loses his bonus)

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Secret Wizard wrote:

Ok:

1. The Monastery Renagade. Scout Rogue. Take Ninja Tricks to get Unarmed Combat Training, and then the Ninja Master Trick Unarmed Combat Mastery. Take Pummeling Style and Pummeling Charge as style feats. A bit of a late bloomer - level 12? -, but when it comes online, he's charging and sneak attacking every single round.

2. The Pistolero. Rake/Bandit works well. Build is complex and requires Human, but playstyle is simple - shoot with your gun, spend Grit points to twirl it and feint as a swift action every round, allowing you to attack AC10 for sneak attack! Below is a walkthrough every level:

** spoiler omitted **

3. The Muscle. Thug/Bandit. Build up that intimidating power with the class features plus the likes of Dazzling Display, Intimidating Prowess (can be taken as a Rogue talent but I recommend taking it on 1st level), Shatter Defenses to ensure sneak attacks, Disheartening Display to empower demoralizes, and then perhaps you want Violent Display (if you can somehow justify associating with weretiger skinwalkers/play as a weretiger skinwalker) to use Dazzling Display as a swift action on the surprise round. Build high STR and really consider that Medium Armor.

4. The Shadow Blade. Sczarni Swindler archetype. Good charisma, probably use Fencing Grace or Dervish Dance. What you want here is build up to Eldritch Heritage (Shadow) and Improved Eldritch Heritage Shadow. That will grant Hide in Plain Sight by level 11th and some nifty powers. Pick up Underhanded as a Rogue talent, enjoy dealing sneak attacks with your magical nonlethal touch attack no one can see coming...

How do you feint as a swift action with your Pistolero build?

Liberty's Edge

28 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite.

Although the rogue's own debilitating injury doesn't stack with itself, can it stack with other rogues' debilitating injuries? It is important to know how these interact because I have friends that I am going to Gen Con with and we are all rogue (unchained) builds.

Let's look at some scenarios:

Scenario 1: Rogue A and Rogue B are flanking their targets and each get sneak attack on their turn. Rogue A goes first. He takes 2 attacks and applies Debilitating Blow: Bewildered on his first attack, and uses the second sneak attack to extend the duration by one round. Rogue B then goes, and the opponent is currently at -2 AC vs him. Rogue B applies Debilitating Blow: Bewildered as well. Does the opponent now have -6 AC versus each character? If you have 4 rogues in a party, does that mean you can give an opponent -10 AC in total against each of the rogues using this same method?

Scenario 2: Same setup as Scenario 1, except Rogue B decides to apply Debilitating Blow: Disoriented. Does the opponent now have -2 AC + -4 Attack against Rogue B and -4 AC + -2 Attack against Rogue A?

Relevant Text:

Debilitating Injury wrote:

At 4th level, whenever a rogue deals sneak attack damage to a foe, she can also debilitate the target of her attack, causing it to take a penalty for 1 round (this is in addition to any penalty caused by a rogue talent or other special ability). The rogue can choose to apply any one of the following penalties when the damage is dealt.

Bewildered: The target becomes bewildered, taking a –2 penalty to AC. The target takes an additional –2 penalty to AC against all attacks made by the rogue. At 10th level and 16th level, the penalty to AC against attacks made by the rogue increases by –2 (to a total maximum of –8).

Disoriented: The target takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls. In addition, the target takes an additional –2 penalty on all attack rolls it makes against the rogue. At 10th level and 16th level, the penalty on attack rolls made against the rogue increases by –2 (to a total maximum of –8).

Hampered: All of the target’s speeds are reduced by half (to a minimum of 5 feet). In addition, the target cannot take a 5-foot step.

These penalties do not stack with themselves, but additional attacks that deal sneak attack damage extend the duration by 1 round. A creature cannot suffer from more than one penalty from this ability at a time. If a new penalty is applied, the old penalty immediately ends. Any form of healing applied to a target suffering from one of these penalties also removes the penalty.

I am mainly worried about the bolded parts.

Liberty's Edge

Thanks guys that clears up a lot!

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Imbicatus wrote:

Yes. Ranged attacks have a -4 penalty against targets engaged in melee unless they have precise shot. It doesn't matter if it's a weapon, spell, SLA, or EX, if it had a ranged attack roll, the penalty applies.

Targeting Touch AC tends to offset this though.

Precise shot only negates the minus for "shooting or throwing ranged weapons". Does that mean this ability is considered a weapon? Or does it mean that I can't negate the minus with Precise Shot, and take it regardless? Feats that augment other Ranged Weapons, do they work? The logistics of that is screwing me up I guess.

Liberty's Edge

Bronnwynn wrote:

As the others have said, it is a ranged attack as usual.

However...

Quote:
do I still need Precise Shot to use it against characters in melee?
No, you just take a -4 penalty if you don't have Precise Shot and an ally is in melee with your target.

Yes sorry that was a typo on my part, mainly wondering if I still take the minus. Thanks guys! So next question then, do other feats that augment "shooting a ranged weapon" work? Rapid Shot?

Rapid Shot wrote:
When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.

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Is the Kineticist's Fire Blast considered a "ranged weapon"? In other words, do I still need Precise Shot to use it against characters in melee? If so, would any feat that augments a "ranged weapon" also augment my blast then? Here is the relevant text:

Precise Shot wrote:
You can shoot or throw ranged weapons at an opponent engaged in melee without taking the standard –4 penalty on your attack roll.
Kineticist Blast (Sp) wrote:
At 1st level, a kineticist chooses one of her element's simple blast wild talents. The kineticist can unleash her kinetic blast at a range of 30 feet at will. A kineticist blast requires at least one hand free to aim the blast. All damage from a kineticist blast is treated as magic for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction.
Fire Blast (Sp) wrote:
You unleash a gout of flickering fire to burn a single foe as a ranged touch attack. If you hit, the target suffers an amount of fire damage equal to 1d6 + 1/2 your Constitution modifier. This damage increases by 1d6 for every 2 kineticist levels you possess beyond 1st. Spell resistance applies.

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Hurling, Lesser wrote:
As a full-round action while raging, the barbarian can lift and hurl an object up to one size category smaller than herself with both hands or two size categories smaller with one hand as an improvised weapon with a range increment of 10 feet. This inflicts damage as a falling object plus the barbarian’s Strength bonus. This damage is halved if the object is not made of stone, metal, or similar material. This is a ranged touch attack, and the target may attempt a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 the barbarian’s level + the barbarian’s Strength modifier) for half damage. The barbarian may apply Power Attack to this attack as a one- or two-handed weapon, as appropriate.

What "size category" is a "small weapon"? If I was to lift a small spear (or medium spear or large spear) what "size category" is it considered? Do you adjust small weapon damage to 2d6 (small object falling damage) no matter what weapon it is when you throw it? Or do you use normal damage dice? How do these mechanics work?

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Here is a sample unfinished build I was thinking for a 7th level character:

Nagaji
Cavalier (Emissary) 1 / Barbarian (Unchained,Hurler) 2 / Rogue (Unchained,Scout,Swashbuckler) 4
CN Medium Humanoid
Init +5; Senses low-light vision; Perception +12

Defense
--------
AC 22, touch 14, flat-footed 19
hp 62
Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +1
Defensive Abilities: evasion, uncanny dodge; Resist: daring

Offense
-------
Speed 30 ft
Melee: +1 lance +12/+7 (1d8+8/x3)
Special Attacks: rage (8 rounds/day), challenge 1/day (+1 damage, +1 hit while riding mount), rage power (hurling, lesser), scout's charge, sneak attack +2d6

Stats
-------
Str 20, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 10
BAB +6; CMB +11; CMD 24
Feats: Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Ride-by-Attack, Spirited Charge, Throw Anything, Two-handed Thrower, Weapon Finesse
Traits: reactionary, rider of paresh
SQ: debilitating injury
Relevant Gear: +1 lance, belt of giant strength +2, ring of protection +1, +1 mithral breastplate

I basically want to charge on my mount and throw my lances from the back of my horse. Here are my questions:

-Does spirited charge work if I throw the weapon while charging on my mount?

Spirited Charge wrote:
When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).

-Using quick draw, and two-handed thrower, could i throw two lances from horseback during charge? do i get charge bonus for each attack?

Two-Handed Thrower wrote:
Whenever you use two hands to throw a one-handed or two-handed weapon, you gain a bonus on damage rolls equal to 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus. Using two hands to throw any weapon requires only a standard action for you. If you also have the Quick Draw feat, you can throw two-handed weapons at your full normal rate of attacks.

-If question 1 and 2 are true, would my damage triple on each attack?

-Is there anyway to combine this with hurling, lesser rage power?

Hurling, lesser (Rage Power) wrote:
As a full-round action while raging, the barbarian can lift and hurl an object up to one size category smaller than herself with both hands or two size categories smaller with one hand as an improvised weapon with a range increment of 10 feet. This inflicts damage as a falling object plus the barbarian’s Strength bonus. This damage is halved if the object is not made of stone, metal, or similar material. This is a ranged touch attack, and the target may attempt a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 the barbarian’s level + the barbarian’s Strength modifier) for half damage. The barbarian may apply Power Attack to this attack as a one- or two-handed weapon, as appropriate.

-If things don't work the way I think they do, can you make any recommendations to help me with my character concept?

I like the idea of having a guy who charges around throwing lances on horseback [and other weapons]. Reminds me of scenes of the Dornish in Game of Thrones. Please help? Suggestions?

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So that means Flurry of Blows + Rapid Shot + Flurry of Stars + Ki Flurry = 6 shuriken attacks in a round?

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Monk(Unchained) Flurry of Blows wrote:
At 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When making a flurry of blows, the monk can make one additional attack at his highest base attack bonus. This additional attack stacks with the bonus attacks from haste and other similar effects. When using this ability, the monk can make these attacks with any combination of his unarmed strikes and weapons that have the monk special weapon quality. He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so. (He can still gain additional attacks from a high base attack bonus, from this ability, and from haste and similar effects).
Rapid Shot wrote:
When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.

Can these two be combined to take 3 attacks with shurikens in a round?

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How long in general does it take for them to FAQ something like this?

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claudekennilol wrote:

Is Pummeling Style one attack or multiple attacks?

prd, ACG, feats wrote:

Pummeling Style (Combat, Style)

You collect all your power into a single vicious and debilitating punch.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike; base attack bonus +6, brawler's flurry class feature, or flurry of blows class feature.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack. For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any). If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit

Can Pummeling Style work with vital strike? I've always wondered the same thing about whether its "one attack" or "multiple attacks"

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Eigengrau wrote:

First of all you're wrong on getting to sub out Dex for Str and have any feat that benefits STR like Power Attack wielded 2handed or Horn of Criosphinx work for DEX in the same way. IT doesn't work like that for PFS.

Why don't you for fun, post that question in the Rules Question forum and see what you get? Make sure to let them know its for your PFS character.

You were also wrong earlier on Vital Striking on a Charge.

Back to Dex again, The rules have to be written somewhere for you to be able to do this, and there isn't any. Your interpretation is just an assumption that a "replacement effect" will do this and its not a Clear Cut thing. If you were to get DEX to damage for other effects like Power Attacking 2 handed or with things like Horn of the Criosphinx and other feats, They would've written more along the likes of "She adds her DEX mod instead of her STR mod to the damage roll, and 1/2 times her DEX mod when using a weapon in 2 hands or on other feats/effects that allow STR damage multipliers." It doesn't clearly say that. You're making assumptions on how you want it to work.

I also know of no rule that doesn't allow you to get full DEX with an off hand weapon though. It makes sense you couldn't but I've not seen one that specifically states you can't.

Two weapon fighting and using Weapon Finesse still requires you to use your STR for damage and any other Weapon Finessing fighting still requires you do use STR for damage. The new Unchained Rogue can get DEX to damage yes, but nothing else from 2 handing a weapon. Fencing Grace and Slashing Grace and the Dervish stuff with a Scimitar also, like the unchained Rogue allow DEX to damage. There never has been a way to add more than your basic DEX mod to damage like STR mods do with 2 handing or Power Attacking or Horn of Crio.

Sorry but I respectfully disagree with most of what you said. I guess we will have to wait for an FAQ or errata. Until then, GMs at the table will have to rule individually.

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Eigengrau wrote:
thatcheriliff wrote:
Eigengrau wrote:

One way uses Power (STR) and the other uses Finesse (DEX). It won't work in PFS without a FAQ ruling or updated printing, in regards to the Unchained Rogue's Finesse training allowing 1.5 DEX mod on Two-handing a weapon, Power Attacking Two-handed or Horn of the Criosphinx.

Flavor text wise it doesn't fit, but whatever your GM wants to do, go with it. But for PFS play its going to be a No, until Paizo clarifies definitively.

Who says? Reference to a ruling? I didn't know you made the rules for PFS.

I detect some hostility there.

Anyway, PFS requires Rules as Written, no deviations.

No hostility. So by your logic then I guess I get full DEX to damage on off hand attacks until there is an errata or FAQ. Since it mentions nowhere that I add half dex damage and the rules as written say I get DEX to damage on my melee attacks

Liberty's Edge

Eigengrau wrote:

One way uses Power (STR) and the other uses Finesse (DEX). It won't work in PFS without a FAQ ruling or updated printing, in regards to the Unchained Rogue's Finesse training allowing 1.5 DEX mod on Two-handing a weapon, Power Attacking Two-handed or Horn of the Criosphinx.

Flavor text wise it doesn't fit, but whatever your GM wants to do, go with it. But for PFS play its going to be a No, until Paizo clarifies definitively.

Who says? Reference to a ruling? I didn't know you made the rules for PFS.

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p-sto wrote:

And I respectfully disagree, thatcheriliff. Saying a character adds their dex modifier to the damage roll instead of strength is not the same as saying they add their dex modifier in the same way that they add strength.

I have no problem with dex to damage and in a lot of ways it's necessary to make a dex based build that doesn't have access to magic viable. At the same time I see no reason that dex to damage should be as good as strength to damage and unless I see a faq to the contrary as a GM I will continue to treat it as inferior. And really there's a good chance that if a faq comes out saying that 1.5 dex to damage exists there's a good chance I'll ignore the faq outside of PFS because it's unnecessary.

How would you explain dex to damage on an off-hand weapon when two weapon fighting with your finesse weapon? Full dex on off-hand attack? (see quoted rules in previous post)

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I think its pretty obvious that you would get 1.5x Dex to damage with a two-handed weapon and finesse training.

Finesse Training wrote:
In addition, starting at 3rd level, she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers). Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed. Whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she does not add her Dexterity modifier.

First of all, it's a replacement effect. It says INSTEAD. For those quoting Agile Weapon Property, you can't compare the two. One is a class ability, the other is a weapon property. They have two different rules texts and neither makes mention of the other. Its Apples and Oranges. No connection. Also, just to appease those comparing the two, Agile says you may choose. Its not a replacement. You can't choose with Finesse Training.

Also, for anyone who still have doubts, how would you explain damage on an off-hand attack when two-weapon fighting with your finesse weapon?

Off-Hand Weapon wrote:
When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus.

You don't get full Dex damage on your off-hand weapon, you get 1/2 times. That's because Dex replaces Strength. I think it is clearly written. Unless an FAQ or specific text states otherwise, you apply 1.5x Dex to damage with Finesse Training and 2-handed weapons that apply.

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Warrick Blackstone wrote:

I don't think that the weapon finesse allows for 1½ dex on the elven curve blade, otherwise it would be more powerful for dex based classes to dip 3 levels rogue instead of getting an agile weapon, as the agile proberty doesn't increase for 2 handed weapons but still reduces for off hand attacks.

Also the feat Horn of the Criosphinx only apply to charging with a two handed weapon with both hands, and I don't see any on you.

The sap master only works when the target is flat-footed so you wont see use of this after the suprise/first round, and feinting flurry sacrifices your first attack.

Horn of the Criosphinx works for monks unarmed

Horn of the Criosphinx wrote:

Whenever you make a successful charge attack while wielding a two-handed weapon in both hands, add two times your Strength bonus to the damage roll.

Normal: A character wielding a two-handed weapon adds 1-1/2 times her Strength bonus to damage rolls.

Special: A monk can use this feat as long as he is wielding a two-handed weapon or both his hands are empty.

I will also always get at least one attack against flat footed ac due to the spin kick ki power. And sure, feinting flurry sacrifices first attack, but its worth it to get 3 more sneak attack hits in when I'm not flanking.

Eigengrau wrote:

Nope not at all. You have to have a Rule/Feat written that way in order to gain that. Absolutely nothing in PFS will work based off presumptions to the effect you would like. PFS requires you to have all the books for your character or you can't use the abilities you have, also it needs to be written exactly in a book somewhere or FAQ in order to gain the effects, and the effects gained are Exactly how it's written in the book/FAQ no more, no less.

How long have you been playing in PFS?

I've been playing PFS specifically for about 3 years now. And I disagree completely.

Finesse Training wrote:

In addition, starting at 3rd level,

she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with
Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers). Once this
choice is made, it cannot be changed. Whenever she makes
a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds
her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier
to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue
from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she
does not add her Dexterity modifier.

It's a replacement effect. Dex INSTEAD of Strength. I am reading it exactly as written. That means if I would add 1/2 my strength then I would add 1/2 my dex instead (which is why a rouge doesn't get full dex damage on off attack when two-weapon fighting with her finesse weapon). The same applies when two-handing and adding 1 1/2 times strength. You can't compare Agile with Finesse Training either to prove your point. One is a weapon property, the other is a class ability. They have two different text rules and neither mentions the other. Just because something doesn't work on one does not mean it doesn't work on the other. Please explain how the text ruling itself in weapon finesse (or sight an FAQ) stops you from using 1 1/2 times dex? How would you account for two-weapon fighting and off hand damage with your finesse weapon?

Warrick Blackstone wrote:
That's like trying to get power attack or dragon style to apply to Dex. Doesn't work that way in PFS. Read as written.

By the way you can use power attack with a Dex build. As long as you meet prerequisite of Str 13. It is a minus to attack for a plus to damage. Says nothing about having to have a strength build.

Power Attack wrote:
You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.

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So with Spellstrike would you get one extra attack with two spells on it, or two extra attacks each with 1 spell?

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AndIMustMask wrote:
Targus Deadeye of Kyonin wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
reposting form the UC rogue general discussion thread:
AndIMustMask wrote:

So i've been fiddling around with things for the unchained rogue, and here's what I've come up with:** spoiler omitted **

-pretty much always attacks touch after level 6 (helps offset TWF penalties and low bab)
-can inflict 2 debilitations + stat damage (str or dex) on sneak attacks
-has HiPS light+dark+blindsight/sense at levels 7, 11, and 13 respectively, moves full speed during stealth at no penalty, and the stealth-break sneak attacks last all turn instead of a single attack (depending on stealth ranks).
-fairly MAD, but gets both wis and cha to will saves as well as slippery mind.

kinda lowish on accuracy, but after activating chill touch and you get an AC debilitation on them you're all set for the most part.

the build becomes MUCH more flexible with the action economy rework, since he could [move or step+stealth]+[TWF]+[ITWF] for four sneak attacks and loads of debuffs pretty much every round.

- - - - -

...
There's one glaring hole in your build, the Shadowstrike ability of the Shadow Bloodline, requires a standard action to use. You can't do this as part of a full attack action.

i dont remember saying that shadowstrike would actually be USED.

the bloodline/EH feats are literally there to get HiPS for darkness (from the levle 9 bloodline ability). alternatively one could spend the same number of feats and dip 1 in shadowdancer to the same effect, but that slows the build down. using the stealth skill to hide as part of a move action is in the vanilla rules, if memory serves, and having HiPS lets you do so even if observed.

hence, [stealth+move] followed by two attack actions (each being 2 attacks with TWF). though this comment was made talking about the unchained action economy overhaul.

admittedly you'd only be sneak-attacking on the first one (until you get your stealth unlock high enough), but it'd let you debilitate...

Can you post a full build / Stat block somewhere (or link it if you already have)? Id like to take a look at your build

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Does this mean Horn of the Criosphinx would add 2x Dex damage?

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Eigengrau wrote:

How does Horn of the Criosphinx let you use 2x your DEX on a charge? It says it's 2x STR on charge attacks...

If I was playing a Tengu Monk of any kind, I'd look very hard at getting the Blade of the Sword-Saint, it's just oozes cool Tengu Monk bad-aszzness

I apply dex in place of strength on attacks, therefore if an effect causes me to apply 2x str, I apply 2x dex instead. Same as if I weild a weapon 2 handed you normally add 1 1/2 str mod. With elven curve blade and finesse training I'd add 1 1/2 my dex mod. Pretty sure it's the same concept.

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Timdog wrote:

Already getting three attacks while feral mutagen is active. My DM won't allow any 3rd party

Not sure if youre referencing what i said but It's all published by paizo. It's not third party, it's just not Pathfinder Society legal.

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Imbicatus wrote:
Dude, we have seen your thread. You can stop spamming every monk/rogue/unchained thread on the board with links to it.

The first link was a level 5 build. This last one was a level 11 build after I changed a couple things. Sorry. Not trying to spam just looking for advice For PFS and seeing if anyone knows a better way of doing what I'm trying to do.

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thatcheriliff wrote:
Timdog wrote:

I have this guy mostly fleshed out, just looking for some finishing touches/anything I missed. I haven't give much thought to feats yet except the obvious (improved natural attack):

here’s my most abusive natural attack character. It’s all pathfinder society legal except the improved natural attack as far as I know. But its for homebrew anyways.

2 alchemist 18 bloodrager (crossblooded-rageshaper)

Abysaal/Arcane bloodlines

Buffs
2nd Mutagen +4 str +4NA -2 int + feral mutagen (claws and bite)
3rd Rage +4 str +4 con -2dex. 1d6 claws base uped to 1d8 via feat (Improved natural attack)
6th claws up one size (archetype feature) 2d6 base. Auto enlarged when raging (+2 str -2dex -1AC) (3d6 claws)
10th claws up one size (bloodline feature) 3d6 base (4d6 enlarged). Auto hasted when raging
13 rage now +6 str +6 con. Also autocast a buffing spell (up to level 2) when raging.
14 rage +2 more str (abyssal bloodline)
18 rage +2 more str (abyssal bloodline),turn into dire tiger when raging (+6 str, +2 con, -2dex, +6NA)

So at level 18 I turn into a raging autohasted dire tiger with +20 str (+4 mutagen, +10 rage, +6 size). Claws doing 4d6 normal, If someone casts strong jaw on me (or I get a magic item), this goes up TWO more size levels to 8d6 . I get pounce, two claw attacks with grab on both, and if I grapple I then get two rake attacks, and my bite.

If its homebrew, you could go with Wereboarkin Skinwalker race and take the vivisectionist and beastmorph alchemist archetypes. By the time you get your feral mutagen you already have 6 natural attacks...could also then look into...

For the 6 natural attacks by the time you get feral mutagen just make sure you take extra feature to get both gore and hooves.

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