Lance Manstrong's page

Im not seeing the issue in action economy between performance and styles. Performances start as a standard and persist as a free action. Styles start as a swift. None of those action types effect the others.

I was working on the character/personality side of a
Sensei/ki mystic. Thats where the idea of playing him as an unassuming old man came from. A scholar or servant even. Buffing the party with performance and ki powers. Ki mystic for knowledge skills and bonuses to them. And giving rerolls.

Adding ninja was to get some etra damage, access to vanishing trick and others, extra skills and because the levles stack with monk for a wis based ki pool. Plus it seemed to fit with being sneaky and bluffing for the unassuming thing.

With that idea added in I sort of shifted the concept a bit to where the character hides behind the unassuming wise old scholar routine and is actually more cold and professional.

So it seems I’m stuck between two concepts:

Figuring out a way to optimize a sensei/ki mystic which is being at least implied to be not a good idea. Possibly with unchained rogue instead of ninja.

Or dropping the buffing/support side and dipping a more martial focused monk archetype and focusing on FoB/style chain and going into a more martial class. Whatever could function unarmed and unarmored. Magus maybe although im reluctant to mix in casting.

It sounds like you don’t think much of ki mystic/sensei.

I guess a better question then would be for optimal dips to take advantage of or help with the wisdom focus. Or just something that would work well with that archetype combination.

Sacred fist warpriest would get me FoB back and access to divine wands.
Original idea was to take advantage of the ninja ki pool stacking and the tricks.

Linorm and mantis style seem to be good for high wis builds but im still leaning towards snake style if I go for any style feats.

The old man thing is more fluff than anything. Not really part of the build aside from a decent bluff to appear harmless occasionally.

We just stopped a campaign where i was a tetori monk so I would like to stay away from maneuvers. Im not really into the sap master chain or dirty trick.

Using something like vital strike, capitalizing on sneak attack, or some type of kung fu trickery would be great for when im actually fighting.

I’ll have wisdom to hit from sensei and was thinking I would be stuck with the guided property on an AoMF to get a stat to damage. Unchained rogue could definitely be an option if meshes better with monk and the idea.

Incredible healer is pretty nice. I haven’t seen that one, thanks.

I guess I was hoping to capitalize off of focusing on Wis. sensei and ki mystic can use ki to help allies. Being a “harmless old man” would mostly be fluff and roleplay. I was hoping to use ninja to get some useful abilities, a ki pool that stacks and some sneak attack. The ninja ki powers would also be usable on allies. 8 skill points/level doesn’t hurt either combined with the ki mystic ability to buff his knowledge checks.

I just wasnt sure what the optimal way to mix them would be or if there were some feats or ideas I was missing.

I suppose the original idea was to optimize a sensei by adding ninja. A support character that can be decent in combat. I really like the idea of being a seemingly harmless old man whos practically an unarmed assassin. In fluff anyway.

Probably human but im open.
I generally roll stats but point but is helpful for theory craft.

Not a fan of the sapMaster stuff or the vigilante.

Ive been messing around with an idea for mixing sensei/ki mystic and ninja.

Essentially a seemingly harmless, unarmed old man. That’s secretly a deadly old man!

I know this probably isn’t all that optimized and “deadly” is a
Bit of a stretch. But I was looking for ideas to make it fun and at least effective.

Ki mystic/sensei for bard buffing and using ki powers on others, plus wis to hit.
Ninja for sneak attack, ki pool stacks, and vanishing trick/forgotten trick. Plus extra skills for bluff/stealth stuff.

Ive looked around but mostly just found arguments (on the internet?! Crazy...). So any tips or ideas would be great. Thinking maybe snake style but whatever works best.

Thanks!

Look into the warrior poet archetype for samurai. Seems like it would work well for that.

Doesn't sound unreasonable. But at that kind of delay I might get together with the players in question and maybe help them along. Mostly to keep things moving. Running without them sounds good but may mess up continuity and out of game relationships.

It's pretty amazing that they worded blackened like that. Its clearly not intended to leave unarmed strikes exempt. But there it is.

Also, thanks for the feedback!

Anyone know which would hold up better doing the kung fu thing in combat? Like for Ac and survivability. Magus vs kineticist? I wouldn't wand to run up and start punching only to realize melee is the last place I should be.

Ive tried building a marid/dragon style master of many styles monk of the four winds and it seemed pretty limited. It looked like a good subzero on paper but didn't seem like it would fair very well in play.

Kineticist is sounding pretty good but that may only be because of the at will thing and that I don't know much about the magus. Or which magus archetype would work better.

I've been looking into ways to make an unarmed character that has a little more to it than just a monk. Like in the thread title, more like Akuma or a fighting game character. Able to pull off special attacks/strikes/blasts, as often as possible and as close to level one as possible. I was only able to come up with a few possibilities:

1. An unarmed magus. Either the hex crafter, kensai, or...there was one other archetype for unarmed but it escapes me at the moment. I'll admit I've never played a magus so I only have a basic grasp of the class.

2. A kineticist. I'm not sure if the annihilator archetype would work better than the vanilla. I have heard the unarmed version is not good. Was thinking the kinetic blade is mostly asthetics anyway so it could easily look like an unarmed strike + energy.

3. Monk as a dip for a sorcerer or something...

I'll apologize ahead of time if I missed similar threads where this has been answered already. Just wanted to throw this out to the wisdom of the board.

How would a maintain check on a subsequent round end your turn on the round you initiated a grapple?

I cannot find the logic that you are using that connects these two things.

I'm only saying that if starting the grapple was the only grappling allowed that turn there would be something saying that or that starting a grapple ended your turn.

I agree that it is a little ambiguous but I'm not really seeing anything calling out the separate turn requirement.

Actually...in context it does.

CRB p200 wrote:

If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

The line before the +5 circumstance bonus and the line after are both discussing maintain checks.

You would have us believe that the line in the middle is not discussing maintain checks?

Seriously, in context the meaning is clear. Only when you take lines out of context do you wind up with this problem.

Maintaining the grapple are the only checks you make. once you're grappling you can make a check to continue grappling. Each round and on subsequent rounds. You only het the bonus after the opponent fails to escape. I'm not finding anything here or in the feats that calls out a requirement that it not be in the same round. It seems that if it was the intent grappling a foe would end your turn.

Thats the conclusion I'm coming to as well. I can't find anything solid to say that's not how it would work.

And yet I can't find anything that shows that intent. It could also be that it just happened to be when you could make the next check. Nothing has it stated and none of the feats mention it in the "normal" rules following them. Unless I'm missing something.

I've been looking around for some sort of ruling or at least an argument for one side or the other that makes a pretty tight case so I know how to present it.

I know it was written when it was possible to make more than one grapple check a round with greater grapple. But even that doesn't mention requiring subsequent rounds.

Greater grapple:
"Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple."

I'm curious if there was one to begin with or it wasn't something that needed to be spelled out until snapping turtle clutch came to be.

1) You move

2) During your move you provoke
3) You start the grapple as an immediate action
4) You have the choice to use a free action to drop the grapple and (presumably) continue your move, or continue grappling and not move any further.
5) Your standard action is still available, you can make an attack with it if you choose.

Maintaining grapple is not until the next turn.
You do not have the option to pin someone in the same turn since pin is based on maintaining and maintaining happens when you start a turn as the grapple initiator.

"If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold."

"Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple)."

I was rereading it to be sure and im not seeing anything calling out requiring it to be on a following round. Just that it requires a standard action. Normally something you would need to wait for the next round.

Sorry if this has been answered somewhere else but I couldn't find anything specific. My Tetori monk is getting snapping turtle clutch before next game. Just wondering how it would work for the following:

Beginning of my turn.
Move action provokes aoo which triggers snapping turtle clutch. I start a grapple as an immediate action.
Does my turn end? Do I still have a standard action? Can I use it to grapple?

From everything I can find it looks like I could use the standard action. But would I need to maintain the grapple with it? Could I go right to pin or damage? Could I make an attack with it?

The grapple rules and charts all refer to the 2nd round of the grapple. So I'm not sure how to apply them. I think I know but I'll need to bring this up with the group and wanted some other thoughts on it.

thanks!

where does it say you cant grapple multiple creatures at once?

It doesn't as far as I know. "Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll."

You don't need both hands to grapple.

You can release one hand as a free action and take the penalty. If you're able to threaten and make attacks outside of the grapple you can then grapple an additional target. With the grapple feats you can maintain as a move and grapple someone else as as a standard. Or on a missed attack with snapping turtle clutch.

How would a Half-Orc qualify for Feral Gnasher? They are Orc subtype, not Goblin. I would stay Lizardfolk though for thematics and their swim speed, +2 nat armor, claws and +2 STR & +2 CON.

Half orcs count as human and orc. Racial heritage feat lets you count as a goblin.

Its a bit much to get there but its still takes a while to get all the grappling feats as a lizardfolk barbarian. I do like the lizardfolk better but I wouldn't be ready until level 3ish.

I was working on a pretty similar idea with a lizardfolk brutal pugilist in mind. But would it work better to go half orc to qualify as a goblin to get feral gnasher?

I guess I'm stuck on what would work better, improved grapple with the bonus bites from raging grappler and animal fury or going right for the grab ability of feral gnasher(with the same bonus bites I guess). Improved grapple needing improved unarmed strike.

Would be tricky talking either of my DMs into the lizardfolk but they're really cool while half orcs can go straight to feral gnasher but aren't as cool thematically. Am I overthinking this?

ChaosTicket wrote:

Sundakan wrote:

...Jesus man, you have some kind of TALENT for missing the point.

Youre just being obnoxious at this point.

Let me break it down for you, so you can see what's been happening these last few posts.

1.) Someone posted about a cool thing they were able to accomplish by playing a Fire Kineticist.

2.) You immediately follow this up by saying "Thats why Air comes off at the best element"

3.) Someone boggles at you saying that in response to Fire being cited as useful, because it was a complete non-sequitur.

4.) You read this.

5.) [WHO THE F%+~ KNOWS WHAT GOES ON HERE]

6.) Through whatever process #5 happened to be, you turned that statement into multiple long rants about various class features the Kineticist has and why they might be useful, in very hostile tones as if someone is disagreeing with you.

7.) Everyone is understandably confused.

8.) You get mad about everyone being confused by your inane ramblings.

And now we're caught up to the present.

You're both discussing different points of the same posts. I don't think he was talking about the specific element as the point but the at-will nature of their powers. Neither side willing to admit that each point exists in the conversation.

1. Someone posts about how usefull at-will powers can be.

2. He agrees and mentions air as being very useful for that same reason.

3. Everyone refuses to see what he meant for the sake of piling on?

Thank you, Serisan. I was wondering about that part of it.

Decisions, decisions.

Tetori Is looking rough with those stats. Best I can do is an ac of 15 at level 1. And thats with giving up a feat. Would only go up by 2 at level 4 with the ac bonus and stat increase.

Brutal pugilist is starting to sound better. Feel like im losing a lot by not going tetori though.

Yes, sorry. Not PFS.

Both sort of. Its been a while since I really looked into putting a character like this together. Not trying to make a tie up grappler. Wannabe Zangief is probably more accurate than I realized at the time.

Also how good a fit he would be as far as story and effectiveness against whatever foes there are to grapple.

Interesting.

My group is taking a break from its Kingmaker campaign, switching DMs, and trying Hells Rebels. I've been wanting to try a grappler for a while now so my question is if its a good fit for the adventure path?

Rolled stats:
11
13
12
16
16
9

Tetori is supposed to be the way to go but I was thinking maybe mixing in 2 levels of strangler brawler for the extra damage per grapple check. Don't know how big of a hit I would take for it. It will be a while before I can afford/find anacondas coils to pull of the constrict/grab fun since we're starting at level 1. I'm not sure what the others are playing yet aside from one rogue of some sort (hopefully the unchained version).

There may also be the issue of getting the character concept to work in the adventure path. After reading the players guide I'm wondering how much sense my wannabe Zangief makes sense as a rebel.

Lance Manstrong wrote:

"Insightful Strike (Ex)

At 2nd level, a sensei may use his Wisdom bonus in lieu of his Strength or Dexterity on attack rolls and combat maneuver checks with unarmed strikes or monk weapons."

With a monk weapon and guided I would get wisdom to hit and damage...

Yes, but Guided Weapon is already wisdom to both hit and damage. Why do you care about Insightful Strike if you have Guided Weapon?

EDIT: If Guided Weapon was only a damage property, it would actually be quite reasonable instead of stupidly broken.

You are totally right. For some reason I read it as wisdom to damage and missed the attack part. My mistake.

Although it still looks like the only way to get wisdom to damage and I like the sensei/ki mystic abilities. Maybe I can talk my dm into it.

Those are both interesting ideas. Although I was probably leaning more towards ki mystic than drunken master but I hadn't gotten far enough to bring up the issue to my dm. It fits a little better with the idea in my head.

Swearing to never pick up a sword again is cool and thematic but brings me back to the pitfalls of unarmed combat.

Sounds like I'm down to:
Eastern swords
Swearing off swords
Spear

Eh, you come with the temple sword. Same stats as long sword, basically. It is only exotic because being a monk weapon pushed it that way.

Thematically, I've seen variations of this type of sword where it gets fairly close to nice Dao (ie- chinese swords devoted to cutting). So that can be fine too as long as you just don't extenuate the curve too much.

And as a note- guided does not seem to prevent getting x1.5 bonuses from power attack when 2 handing. So...yeah.

Overall, sensei is fairly weapon agnostic. And they have added at least enough bare bones proficiencies that you can get by.

Yea, I may be stuck. 9 ring broadswords are cool too. Was just trying to stay away from eastern style stuff since I was already kind of reflavouring away from the traditional sensei to more of the old veteran.

Didn't catch that on power attack either.

If you're allowed to use the (OP, 3.5) Guided Weapon property, why does it matter whether you use a Monk Weapon?

"Insightful Strike (Ex)

At 2nd level, a sensei may use his Wisdom bonus in lieu of his Strength or Dexterity on attack rolls and combat maneuver checks with unarmed strikes or monk weapons."

With a monk weapon and guided I would get wisdom to hit and damage. Crusaders flurry lets you trreat your deities favored weapon as a monk weapon but has flurry of blows as a pre req.

Now that I'm looking at it again sacred fist wouldn't work since longs words aren't the favored weapon and swithching deities between a level of that then cleric (iomedae) wouldnt work.

I was working on an idea for a backup character and came up with an older cleric who had survived a tpk. The original idea was a level of crusader cleric into sensei as sort of an older mentor to the party. I was planning on picking up crusaders flurry when I realized sensei doesn't have flurry of blows.

I was really hoping to avoid monk weapons and just go with a longsword but I may be stuck. Didn't really want to do more than a 1-2 level dip to pull it off.

One level of sacred fist war priest into cleric before sensei? Didn't really need the flurry except for the feat but I'll take it...

Any suggestions?
Would that be worth it?

Would start at 5th or 6th level in a kingmaker campaign. Focusing on the buffing stuff of the sensei but should be able to hold his own being mostly wisdom and dex based. Plus the guided weapon property.

Can you elaborate your lack of interest in non-fighter classes? Bolt ace really is the way to go...

Seems like you're missing out on most of your trip tactics by using a reach weapon. Tripping at reach wouldn't trigger any of your viscous stomp or wolf stuff. They would be to far to hit with unarmed attacks. Am I missing part of the plan?

Edit: nevermind. Missed wolf trip. Carry on!

I don't blame them for not wanting to play a wizard with that point buy. I'm surprised theres even a cleric.

It does say in the book that the unchained monk does not qualify for any previous archetypes. So no master of many styles or any others. Allowing any would be a house rule.

Lance Manstrong wrote:

Wholeness of body isn't worth it just for the sake of having to take it INSTEAD of something else. You wait until you finally get a ki power, just one for a few levels, and thats what you would take?

Wholeness of Body was worthless even when it was free and Monks didn't need Ki to do everything.

I couldn't agree more.

Wholeness of body isn't worth it just for the sake of having to take it INSTEAD of something else. You wait until you finally get a ki power, just one for a few levels, and thats what you would take?

I lent a friend my copy of the book so I can't look it up but I don't remember seeing an option for getting rid of the big six that didnt just replace them with other items. Was there an optional system to make the bonuses inherent to the characters or is it necessary to tie it to items and gold?

Not getting the upgrade to BAB, HD, or even adjusting or losing the unarmed damge dice increases. Any one of those would have been better than losing all good saves. It fits thematically and mechanically for them to have it.

brightshadow360 wrote:

While the new build may have problems, keep in mind that the biggest boon is not so much the current new features as it is the way the class itself is now FORMATTED. now that the class abilities pull from lists of options, deficiencies can be addressed with new abilities. lacking Ki? the designers releases a Ki ability that grants you double your WIS bonus or fuses your pool with a pool from another class for multi-classers. need more style strikes? release a feat that lets you use an extra one. loss of will save got you down? there's an app future ability for that.

That being said, the fact that you have to use up slots to make such fixes is unfortunate, but we have quite a few slots to work with. remember, we now have an UPGRADABLE monk. just so long as the unadorned unchained monk functions at least as well as a base fighter, the developing team has succeeded. The bells and whistles can come later.

Thank you. That's exactly right. That's why I've been running my basic tests, but you've done a better job than I have in highlighting this side of things. So thanks!

:-)

Sure, just make an unchained monk and wait for the future archetypes that may or may not come out to make the character you want. Shouldn't be too long now. Any minute really. All these problems are fine. I'm sure the other classes will stop laughing once that future support shows up. Who needs bells and whistles when youre almost as good as a vanilla fighter...

Maybe not front loading it so much. High jump, slow fall, extra speed at 2. More at 4. That kinda thing.

I would have liked to have seen ki powers kept as an actual suite of abilites. At level 2 you gain a ki pool and a group of powers like slow fall, high jump, increased move speed, an extra attack, and etc. That didnt cost any ki points but were limited to once a turn. In addition you picked one from another group. One of the more impressive ones. This second group would cost ki to use.

Then a couple levels later you pick another from that second group.

Maybe at level 6 or 8 some other "free" powers are added to the suite. Like poison immunity, diamond body(or whatever. Just an example). All the while every other level or so youre picking from that second group.

This way you get all the generic monk martial arts stuff in an actual suite of powers(not requiring ki). Seperately youre selecting and creating a second suite that requires spending ki but it's the powers that make you unique and cool.

Calling what the unchained monk has now a suite of powers and abilities is just way off.

Style strikes being restricted to flurry of blows seems so weird it almost has to be an oversight. Or a cruel joke.

It still bothers me that you can't mix the style strikes until level 15. Thats so late in the game for something so seemingly trivial at that level.

Copied from my post on the other thread:

Why not make stunning fist one of the bonus feats? Along with punishing kick and elemental fist etc.

Move ki powers to level 2 (or even 1st).
Ki pool needs to = level + wis mod or at the very least a way to generate more.

Move fast movement to level 1. It doesn't stack so who cares? Barbarians get it at 1st...

Style strikes need to come online earlier. Start at 3? Then every 3 or 4 after that and possibly the choice of a bonus feat/ki power instead.

Why not make stunning fist one of the bonus feats? Along with punishing kick and elemental fist etc.

Move ki powers to level 2 (or even 1st).
Ki pool needs to = level + wis mod or at the very least a way to generate more.

Move fast movement to level 1. It doesn't stack so who cares? Barbarians get it at 1st...

Style strikes need to come online earlier. Start at 3? Then every 3 or 4 after that and possibly the choice of a bonus feat/ki power instead.

Really looking over the class is very dissapointing. Style strikes are the only good to come out of this. Such a waste of a perfect opportunity to really make something cool and fun.

There is a pelvic thrust style strike but its limited to attacks with the pelvis and its not available until level 18.

Panther style might actually be worthwhile on the unchained monk if you can trigger extra attacks on your turn without giving up your full attack action. Full bab on attacks of opportunity now is gravy.

Its too bad you're limited to one style without losing flurry.
You'll get your exta attacks, just no dragon style for damage or pummeling style for crits and DR or etc...

Guided is also a magic weapon property making it come up late for a wis focused monk. While at the same time competing for space on an amulet of mighty fists that you may or may not find or may or may not be able to buy.

Slashing grace requires style feats to work. Excluding other styles more appropriate for your character. (Unless I'm just remembering it wrong)

My point was that other classes can just choose to do it at level one or two. As part of their class. Can we please just stop the MADness?

So the unchained rogue has dex to hit and damage essentially built into the class. The swashbuckler can pull off the same thing very easily. If I'm not mistaken bards can as well. What would be so game breaking to allow monks access to some monk only feats or abilities that allowed the same with dex or even wisdom? Maybe not built in, but options in the class for monk weapons and unarmed strikes.