[Unchained] The Monk Unchained


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Silver Crusade

Rynjin wrote:

Those DPR results are lackluster. 54 DPR at 11th level means you're taking 4 rounds to take down those CR 13 enemies, and 3 rounds for a CR 11. You're spending the time it should take for the whole fight to conclude just to take out one guy.

That's 1 or 2 rounds slower than an equivalent level Barbarian or Fighter could likely do it. You don't need to math out full builds for that, they simply have every damage boosting option you have, with more on top (especially assuming a TWFer build in comparison to the Unarmed Oona build...since you're using Dragon Style the Feat investment is roughly equal.).

I compare the DPR of these builds to the DPR of straightfoward Core Fighter builds (all my work at the link). At every level, the Monk build is within a reasonable range of the Fighter, even when not using style feats.

If you think those numbers are "lackluster," that's fine—as long as we're clear that those numbers are "lackluster" for both the Monk and the Fighter, in their basic iterations.

(And if it's the case that the Fighter happens to have more heightened optimizing options available to it, then I'd just say that that's not a judgment on the class itself, just the supplemental material that's been published for it.)

I haven't checked the numbers on a TWF Fighter. My understanding was that the Falchion build is about the highest numbers you can get on a basic Fighter. If that's not the case, show me the build and some numbers for a straightforward TWF Fighter and we can compare.

Also, we should be looking at full builds, not just rough estimates, because that way we see all the tradeoffs involved. I imagine that a TWF build would start to lose some ground on its defenses, an area that the Monk already appears to be competitive-or-better.

Rynjin wrote:
Your numbers speak to a basic level of competence, yes, but calling it "very successful" is an exaggeration, by my reading.

I put the qualifiers on "very" for a reason. I'm comfortable saying "very," but that's more of a nebulous judgment call than the solid assessment that the Unchained Monk is at least solid/competent/successful.

Also, keep in mind all the other abilities the Monk brings to the table that the Fighter just doesn't have. Starting with Flying Kick to get those DPR numbers much more often in actual play. I think once you count those in, the equivalent-or-better DPR and the significantly more interesting not-just-numbers abilities that the Monk enjoys may very well license a judgment of "very" successful.

Rynjin wrote:
I don't think there was ever any doubt the Unchained Monk was solid/usable, but the complaint is that it does not EXCEL like other classes. Not even with heavy optimization (as far as its purely class based abilities go. Ki Powers are just meh compared to Discoveries or Rage Powers).

I haven't been following this thread very closely, so that may be the case. But the impression I got was that the complaint has precisely been that the Unchained Monk is not "viable," a complaint that I believe my analysis gives us good reason to reject.

Silver Crusade

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

...If you say so.

Those DPR results are lackluster. 54 DPR at 11th level means you're taking 4 rounds to take down those CR 13 enemies, and 3 rounds for a CR 11. You're spending the time it should take for the whole fight to conclude just to take out one guy.

That's 1 or 2 rounds slower than an equivalent level Barbarian or Fighter could likely do it. You don't need to math out full builds for that, they simply have every damage boosting option you have, with more on top (especially assuming a TWFer build in comparison to the Unarmed Oona build...since you're using Dragon Style the Feat investment is roughly equal.).

But it's not. He actually built a Fighter with an equivalent level of optimization and his Monk does better than said Fighter.

Now, IMO, that's a rather low level of optimization, but as long as it's the same level, it's a valid comparison.

Thanks, that's exactly the point of the exercise. Apples to apples. :-)

ETA: Plus, for all the reasons spelled out in the thread, I think we're best off evaluating the class on a basic, not-super-optimized build.


I built a monk12/vmc fighter with a +3 sansetsukon, enlarged with potion, that has a DPR of 237 vs AC27 with haste and ki.

23/23/23/23/23/18/13 2-16+29

So DPR is highly dependent on the build.

Without VMC the DPR drops to 174

20/20/20/20/20/15/10 2-16+26


I don't want to do a full level by level build, but take a level 11, unarchetyped Fighter, vs Unarmed Oona (same cost on weaponry):

Stats, 20 PB:

Str: 16 (14 +2 Belt)
Dex: 25 (16 +2 Human +3 level +2 Belt)
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 7

Traits (Effects, I don't feel like looking up names): +1 Will, Perception as a class skill

Feats:

1.) Two-Weapon Fighting
1.) Double Slice
1.) Weapon Finesse
2.) Power Attack (?) (Power Attack zig-zags in effectiveness on TWFing builds IME, but at level 11 it's probably a solid Feat).
3.) Iron Will
4.) Weapon Focus: Shortsword (to match the Temple sword in crit range. I'd probably take Kukri or something otherwise)
5.) Weapon Specialization
6.) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7.) Two-Weapon Defense (?)
8.) Improved Critical
9.) Greater Weapon Focus (?)
10.) Critical Focus (?)
11.) Two-Weapon Rend

Offense: Two +2 Shortswords (16k), Gloves of Dueling (15k), Belt of Physical Might (+2 Str/Dex, 10k)
Defense: +2 Mithral Breastplate (8k), +3 Cloak of Resistance (9k), +1 Ring (2k), 1 Amulet (2k), Jingasa (5k)
Cash to spare: Quite a bit

AC: 28
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +13, Will +9

Attack routine: +25/+20/+15 (1d6+7, 17-20/x2)
Attack routine TWFing: +23/+23/+18/+18/+13 (1d6+7, 17-20/x2 plus 1d10+4 Rend)
Attack Routine TWfing Power Attack: +20/+20/+15/+15/+10 (1d6+13/+10)

So, AC -2 (though enough cash to close the gap), Saves +1/+1/-3, attack bonus +2/+2/-3/+2/+2, Damage -2/-5, crit range 10% bigger.

DPR TWFing Power Attack vs AC 28: 47.95

Hm, guess you're right.

Interested in running the numbers on an equivalent level Str based TWfing Slayer now though, or a standard 2H Barbarian. Might come back to that later.


Temple swords and short sword are not in the same level it seems to me, since the temple sword is the best monk weapon while the shortsword is not the best fighter weapon. Not sure why you went dex focused, since you could have gone more strength and cover your AC with defender of the society and (non mithral)full plate.

(Also, Dodge is just better than Two weapon defense.)

EDIT: The non power attack damage should be 1d6+11*, 1d6+17 after PA.

* +4 (WT + gloves) +3 str + 2 WS +2 weapon enhancement.

EDIT 2: The attack seems to be falling short by one after greater weapon focus.


I derped and forgot to include Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, and the Gloves.

So, that puts DPR at 88.35 without Power Attack, and 115.71 with it.

I retract my "you're right" statement.


Contraty to the popular belief, TWF fighters do have a more than solid DPR, so perhaps the monk is not that bad (probably in the 80s for AC 27) taking into account that the monk probably have other things to do besides standing still and full attacking.


It does, but does it do ENOUGH more that it can afford a DPR hit of doing less than half the damage of the Fighter?

Because most of the tricks the class itself provides are very limited in uses per day due to a tiny, tiny Ki Pool.

Less on a DR note Joe, Wind Jump is a sad, sad thing to strive for. It requires getting the changed Slow Fall, and then getting that slap in the face of "Flight, but only if you want to use it to hop a chasm or something because it's useful for jack-all in combat".

Wind Step before it made me sad, and so does Wind Jump.


He is claiming 65-76 against AC 28, that perhaps jumps to the 80s against AC 80, not half the fighter DPR.

Also, his feat selection are not for straight DPR, since he went mobility - Panther style.

You should do the monk and see what DPR numbers you can get while maintaining the same AC and saves.


I recalculated my monk as level 11 vs AC28 and without VMC, this guy does 164DPR with haste and ki:

STR26 (18 starting +2 level +4 item+2 enlarge person)
+3 sansetsukon
pale green cracked ioun stone
boots of speed

Gives: (attack bab 11 + str 8 +3 magic +1 weapon focus +1 haste +1 competence -3 power attack -1 size = 21; damage str 12+3 magic+9 power attack)

+21/21/21/21/21/16/11 with 2-16+24 damage

So not exactly half the damage of the fighter.


I actually don't see a fighter being able to keep up with a monk in 2WF because the monks extra attacks are at full BAB and he can get STR*1.5 and power attack 3/1

Designer

Rynjin wrote:

I derped and forgot to include Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, and the Gloves.

So, that puts DPR at 88.35 without Power Attack, and 115.71 with it.

I retract my "you're right" statement.

My back-of-the-envelope calculation is that you remembered all but +1 of the accuracy boosts and +4 of the damage in your initial calculations, so if you added +3 on attack rolls and +4 on damage rolls in the second calculation, if that's right, the second one is too high.


With VMC fighter, this guy's DPR goes up to 224


nicholas storm wrote:


So not exactly half the damage of the fighter.

Well, the examples are without haste or the pale green prism, the fighter numbers with those and kukri probably go up by a lot.


Nicos wrote:
nicholas storm wrote:


So not exactly half the damage of the fighter.

Well, the examples are without haste, the fighter numbers with haste and kukri probably go up by a lot.

Put those in and I still bet 115 doesn't go above 164


With haste and the ioun stone the routine would be

+23/+23/+23/+18/+18/+13 (1d4+17/+14, 15-20/x2)

You also have enlarge person activated, it is using a UC monk class feature?, if not it should not be there IMHO.


Nicos wrote:

With haste and the ioun stone the routine would be

+23/+23/+23/+18/+18/+13 (1d4+17/+14, 15-20/x2)

You also have enlarge person activated, it is using a UC monk class feature?, if not it should not be there IMHO.

It's a cheap magic item, so I don't see why not. If you want to compare what a semi optimized monk build is going to look like.


Btw, how are you getting that number of attacks (for those without the UC)?


If you think in terms of action economy, because the monk has a pseudo pounce, having it able to drink a potion (and there are ways to make that a move or swift action) and still be about equal to a fighter is kind of fair.


nicholas storm wrote:
Nicos wrote:

With haste and the ioun stone the routine would be

+23/+23/+23/+18/+18/+13 (1d4+17/+14, 15-20/x2)

You also have enlarge person activated, it is using a UC monk class feature?, if not it should not be there IMHO.

It's a cheap magic item, so I don't see why not. If you want to compare what a semi optimized monk build is going to look like.

Do you posted the build in the thread?, I would like to compare similar levels of optimization and resource dedicated to the offensive. It is also good to compare the other numbers).


2 extra attacks for flurry, 1 for ki, and 1 for haste.


Two extra attacks at full BAB is a very solid class feature indeed.


Nicos wrote:
nicholas storm wrote:
Nicos wrote:

With haste and the ioun stone the routine would be

+23/+23/+23/+18/+18/+13 (1d4+17/+14, 15-20/x2)

You also have enlarge person activated, it is using a UC monk class feature?, if not it should not be there IMHO.

It's a cheap magic item, so I don't see why not. If you want to compare what a semi optimized monk build is going to look like.

Do you posted the build in the thread?, I would like to compare similar levels of optimization and resource dedicated to the offensive. It is also good to compare the other numbers).

One +3 weapon 18k

ioun stone 4k
boots of speed 12k
belt str 16k


nicholas storm wrote:
Nicos wrote:
nicholas storm wrote:
Nicos wrote:

With haste and the ioun stone the routine would be

+23/+23/+23/+18/+18/+13 (1d4+17/+14, 15-20/x2)

You also have enlarge person activated, it is using a UC monk class feature?, if not it should not be there IMHO.

It's a cheap magic item, so I don't see why not. If you want to compare what a semi optimized monk build is going to look like.

Do you posted the build in the thread?, I would like to compare similar levels of optimization and resource dedicated to the offensive. It is also good to compare the other numbers).

One +3 weapon 18k

ioun stone 4k
boots of speed 12k
belt str 16k

...those don't make a complete build. What is the guy AC, saves, hps? how many times per day he can do his ki trick?.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

I derped and forgot to include Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, and the Gloves.

So, that puts DPR at 88.35 without Power Attack, and 115.71 with it.

I retract my "you're right" statement.

My back-of-the-envelope calculation is that you remembered all but +1 of the accuracy boosts and +4 of the damage in your initial calculations, so if you added +3 on attack rolls and +4 on damage rolls in the second calculation, if that's right, the second one is too high.

I added +1 hit and +4 damage.

Nicos wrote:

He is claiming 65-76 against AC 28, that perhaps jumps to the 80s against AC 80, not half the fighter DPR.

Also, his feat selection are not for straight DPR, since he went mobility - Panther style.

You should do the monk and see what DPR numbers you can get while maintaining the same AC and saves.

Core Monk? Or, Core-ish (I'ma include Qinggong if I do so).

I can whip that up tomorrow.

Designer

Rynjin wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

I derped and forgot to include Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, and the Gloves.

So, that puts DPR at 88.35 without Power Attack, and 115.71 with it.

I retract my "you're right" statement.

My back-of-the-envelope calculation is that you remembered all but +1 of the accuracy boosts and +4 of the damage in your initial calculations, so if you added +3 on attack rolls and +4 on damage rolls in the second calculation, if that's right, the second one is too high.

I added +1 hit and +4 damage.

Cool! I always have to remind myself how much something small can add to DPR, though going from 48 to 116 from +1 hit and +4 damage is more than even I've usually seen. It's why I always get a bit of a grin when other people on the forum say something like "This only gives me a +2 to hit and doesn't scale; as the levels increase, it becomes irrelevant" (a claim I've seen recently) when people who crunch lots of numbers like you can see how much of a huge jump you can get from a relatively-small boost in accuracy.


It doesn't matter as much for most builds, but +1 to-hit and +4 damage on a TWFing build is doubly effective (or roughly so) I'd imagine.

It's really more a matter of what you're giving up to GET that +2 that doesn't scale. 2 Feats for a Fighter is not a whole lot. 2 Feats for a Human X matters more, but still less. 2 Feats for a non-Human something without Bonus Feats and it looks kinda dicey.


Nicos wrote:
nicholas storm wrote:
Nicos wrote:
nicholas storm wrote:
Nicos wrote:

With haste and the ioun stone the routine would be

+23/+23/+23/+18/+18/+13 (1d4+17/+14, 15-20/x2)

You also have enlarge person activated, it is using a UC monk class feature?, if not it should not be there IMHO.

It's a cheap magic item, so I don't see why not. If you want to compare what a semi optimized monk build is going to look like.

Do you posted the build in the thread?, I would like to compare similar levels of optimization and resource dedicated to the offensive. It is also good to compare the other numbers).

One +3 weapon 18k

ioun stone 4k
boots of speed 12k
belt str 16k
...those don't make a complete build. What is the guy AC, saves, hps? how many times per day he can do his ki trick?.

Human Stats STR 18(26) DEX 14 CON 12 INT 10 WIS 14(16) CHA 8

HP 81 (10+10*6+11)
Fort 11 (7+3+1) Reflex 12 (7+3+2) Will 11 [+2 enchantment] (3+3+3+2)
AC 25 [+4 with crane style;+1 haste] (mage armor 4 + wisdom 3 + monk 2 + dex 1 + barkskin 4 + dodge 1 + deflection 1 - 1 size)
Ki 10

Traits - Accelerated Drinker, Dangerously Curious
Feats - Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Sansetsukon), Iron Will, Lunge, Crane Style, Improved Critical (Sansetsukon), Extra Ki
Monk Feats - Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike, Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Medusa's Wrath
Ki Powers - Barkskin, Diamond Mind, High Jump, Abundant Step
Style Strike - Flying Kick, Leg Sweep
Skills - Acrobatics (11+2+3), Perception 16 (11+2+3) UMD 14 (11+1-1+3)

Magic Items - 2 Wands of Mage Armor, Wand of Cure Light Wounds, Wand of Enlarge Person, Pale Green Cracked Ioun Stone, Belt of Strength +4, Headband of Wisdom +2, Cloak of Resistance +3, Boots of Speed, Sansetsukon +3, Ring of Protection +1, 10 potions of enlarge person; with a little over 3k gold left


nicholas storm wrote:
Nicos wrote:
nicholas storm wrote:
Nicos wrote:
nicholas storm wrote:
Nicos wrote:

With haste and the ioun stone the routine would be

+23/+23/+23/+18/+18/+13 (1d4+17/+14, 15-20/x2)

You also have enlarge person activated, it is using a UC monk class feature?, if not it should not be there IMHO.

It's a cheap magic item, so I don't see why not. If you want to compare what a semi optimized monk build is going to look like.

Do you posted the build in the thread?, I would like to compare similar levels of optimization and resource dedicated to the offensive. It is also good to compare the other numbers).

One +3 weapon 18k

ioun stone 4k
boots of speed 12k
belt str 16k
...those don't make a complete build. What is the guy AC, saves, hps? how many times per day he can do his ki trick?.

Human Stats STR 18(26) DEX 14 CON 12 INT 10 WIS 14(16) CHA 8

HP 92 (10+10*6+11+11fcb)
Fort 11 (7+3+1) Reflex 12 (7+3+2) Will 11 [+2 enchantment] (3+3+3+2)
AC 25 [+4 with crane style;+1 haste] (mage armor 4 + wisdom 3 + monk 2 + dex 1 + barkskin 4 + dodge 1 + deflection 1 - 1 size)
Ki 10

Traits - Accelerated Drinker, Dangerously Curious
Feats - Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Sansetsukon), Iron Will, Lunge, Crane Style, Improved Critical (Sansetsukon), Extra Ki
Monk Feats - Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike, Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Medusa's Wrath
Ki Powers - Barkskin, Diamond Mind, High Jump, Abundant Step
Style Strike - Flying Kick, Leg Sweep
Skills - Acrobatics (11+2+3), Perception 16 (11+2+3) UMD 14 (11+1-1+3)

Magic Items - 2 Wands of Mage Armor, Wand of Cure Light Wounds, Wand of Enlarge Person, Pale Green Cracked Ioun Stone, Belt of Strength +4, Headband of Wisdom +2, Cloak of Resistance +3, Boots of Speed, Sansetsukon +3, Ring of Protection +1, 10 potions of enlarge person; with a little over 3k gold left


Not seeing anything particularly spectacular there.

Unless you're telling me you're actually banking on Medusa's Wrath coming into play more than once in a blue moon.


dpr doesn't include medusa's wrath. I whipped this up in 5min, so obviously it's not going to be fully optimized.


and still this guy can do 164 dpr against ac 28 with enlarge, haste and ki activated.


Milo v3 wrote:
Skull wrote:
I see a lot of people are still unhappy about the price of the AoMF, was anyone expecting that to be fixed in unchained?
It basically was fixed in my opinion with the automatic bonus, since you can apply the bonuses to your unarmed strikes and standard clothes.

You guys DO realize that Amulet of Mighty Fists hasn't been necessary for a monk ever right? Monks strikes count as manufactured weapons. This means that magic weapon spells work on them. greater magic weapon + permanancy (which any magic weapon shop would supply) = magical super fists. Even says this is the case right in the magic weapon spell description: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/magicWeapon.html


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brightshadow360 wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Skull wrote:
I see a lot of people are still unhappy about the price of the AoMF, was anyone expecting that to be fixed in unchained?
It basically was fixed in my opinion with the automatic bonus, since you can apply the bonuses to your unarmed strikes and standard clothes.
You guys DO realize that Amulet of Mighty Fists hasn't been necessary for a monk ever right? Monks strikes count as manufactured weapons. This means that magic weapon spells work on them. greater magic weapon + permanancy (which any magic weapon shop would supply) = magical super fists. Even says this is the case right in the magic weapon spell description: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/magicWeapon.html

You DO realize that the spell greater magic weapon, while providing an enhancement bonus, doesn't actually allow you to penetrate damage reduction as a true enhancement bonus (such as the one provided by the amulet of mighty fists) right? Even says this is the case right in the greater magic weapon spell description: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/magicWeapon.html#magic-weapon-gre ater

Please don't speak to us like we're idiots and we won't return the favor.

Outside of the lack of DR penetration, there is also the issue that, as an ongoing spell effect, it's capable of being permanently dispelled. This means a single greater dispel magic can strip you of your enhancement bonus to attack and damage in the middle of a fight and you have no way of easily recovering this. Conversely, if they were to do a targeted dispel on your amulet of mighty fists the amulet is only suppressed for 1d4 rounds, at which point it resumes functioning as normal.

You also run into the issue of needing an ever higher and higher caster level to keep pace. By the time you've got a +3 bonus, other martials might have a +4 bonus on their main weapon and a +3 bonus on a back up. Sure, yours costs less, but theirs is much more difficult to get rid of.


Yeah. What Tels said. :)


Epic Meepo wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
And Flying Kick explicitly requires the attack made after it to be a kick...
More amusingly, the head-butt style strike says it can only be made with head-butt attacks. But unarmed strike says, "A monk's attacks can be made with fists, elbows, knees, and feet." It would seem that "head-butt" is not an attack a monk can make while using unarmed strike. (Which is why this whole "must use this body part" stuff is uncalled for.)

Fortuantely it does not say "a monk's attacks can ONLY be made with ..."

It is like saying you can eat using a fork in your left hand. That does not mean you are not capable of eating with a fork in your right hand.

The fact that there is even a head-butt style strike seems to further imply the list it gave is not exhaustive and was merely there for the line further down saying a monk could full attack with his hands full. Shoulder strikes are a definite real world attack as our kicks with the shin.

Silver Crusade

@Rynjin, I'm very interested in following up with you re a Two Weapon Fighting Fighter. But when I do that follow-up, I'm going to stick to my Core principle, including discounting gloves of dueling.

This for <the apples-to-apples reason that Deadmanwalking identified above>:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

But it's not. He actually built a Fighter with an equivalent level of optimization and his Monk does better than said Fighter.

Now, IMO, that's a rather low level of optimization, but as long as it's the same level, it's a valid comparison.

But this isn't always easy to see in the case of the Unchained Monk and it's worth calling out what's going on here (I think this might start to really answer your contention above that the problem with the Unchained Monk is that it may be solid/competent but that it doesn't EXCEL). This came out in some helpful conversation with Tels in the <Testing the Unchained Monk> thread: the Unchained Monk is uniquely undersupported by supplementary material in comparison to the classes alongside which it will be playing.

But I don't take that to be a judgment against the class itself—I take that to be a call upon Paizo to make sure that this uniquely under-supported class gets rapid supplemental support to "bring it up to speed." I'll reproduce my statement here.

Joe M. wrote:
Tels wrote:
It’s worth noting that, with archetype support, the Pathfinder Monk is roughly as equally effective as any of the four builds you presented […] The other major complain many people had is the complete destruction of archetype support. It's also something that won't ever be rectified without a new product released specifically designed to do so.

I’m taking this point last because I think it’s the most interesting one. Because you’re right that it’s a huge loss to the class to lose that archetype support. It’s also a less-obvious loss to the class that whatever old traits, feats, items, or other character options that do work with the Unchained Monk have been written for and presumably balanced around the Core Monk, and so they might not be the best fit or optimal for an Unchained Monk, for whatever reason.

But I think what this helpfully brings out is why the “core” test is appropriate for evaluating the class itself. It’s true that the Unchained Monk suffers in comparison to the Core Monk and in comparison to other Pathfinder classes from a distinct lack of support from supplemental materials. They were just wiped away!

But I don’t think we should judge the class itself on that basis. We shouldn’t compare (Core Monk plus tons of goodies) or (Fighter plus tons of goodies) to (Unchained Monk but just the class itself). If the Unchained Monk succeeded in that test, then it would be much more powerful, just as the class itself, than the Core Monk, or the Fighter, or whatever other class. Because you’re comparing the buffed-up version of one class to the basic, not-buffed-up version of the other rather than using the same standard. Apples and oranges.

But now imagine how the Unchained Monk might look with a couple years of supporting material published for it. Then it would look like a really good class, I imagine, and much better than the Core Monk. It’s just a weird artifact of the structure of Unchained that we got a new class with, for the first time, no dedicated support of its own! (Every other new class was published with some supporting material, this is the only one that came basically unsupported.)

So I think we should be very clear that we’d like continuing support for the Unchained Monk—a Player Companion rewriting old archetypes for the Unchained Monk, say, would be an awesome and much-appreciated product for bringing this new class with no goodies of its own “up to speed” in comparison to the much-more-supported classes that it will be playing alongside.

But that fact isn’t a judgment against the Unchained Monk as a class just in itself, that fact is a claim that the Unchained Monk needs dedicated support like any other class in supplementary materials, and that it needs special attention because it’s so far behind all the others (thanks to archetypes being wiped out and old Monk options being designed for a different Monk class and so possibly not working so well).

Sovereign Court

Rynjin wrote:
Nicos wrote:

He is claiming 65-76 against AC 28, that perhaps jumps to the 80s against AC 80, not half the fighter DPR.

Also, his feat selection are not for straight DPR, since he went mobility - Panther style.

You should do the monk and see what DPR numbers you can get while maintaining the same AC and saves.

Core Monk? Or, Core-ish (I'ma include Qinggong if I do so).

I can whip that up tomorrow.

You should make it either Drunken Master for infinite ki, or Sohei for martial ability, as the best monks are generally one or the other. (At least for damage - manuver builds or other style builds [flowing/manuver master/tetori/sensei etc] are an entirely different ball of wax and not directly comparable.) Probably Sohei since it's a pure DPR comparison.

Silver Crusade

Rynjin, I built out a Core Two Weapon Tom for comparison, tracking your build pretty closely. The results at level 11 are toward the low end, a bit better than Longsword Lou but worse than Unarmed Oona even when she isn't using Dragon Style. <Work starts here>. Upshot is:

# Two Weapon Tom #
AC 27; HP 103
Fort/Ref/Will +12/+12/+10
Attack kukri +19/+14/+9 (1d4+16/15-20x2), kukri +18/+13 (1d4+12/15-20x2); Special Critical Focus, Rend (1d10+4)

Results (with other builds' results for reference):

# CR 13 MONSTER #
AC 28; HP 180
Attack +22 (60 dmg)
Primary Ability DC 21

# Two Weapon Tom Lvl 11 v. CR 13 #
AC = 27
Fort, Ref, Will = 60%, 60%, 50% success
DPR = 48.6 (27%)

# Unarmed Oona Lvl 11 v. CR 13 #
AC = 26/30
Fort, Ref, Will = 55%, 60%, 60% success; +10% v. ench, improved evasion; (+10% v. paralysis, sleep, stun)
DPR = 54.9–63.6 (30.5–35.3%)

# Temple Sword Tina Lvl 11 v. CR 13 #
AC = 26/30
Fort, Ref, Will = 55%, 60%, 60% success; improved evasion
DPR = 65.4–76.1 (36.3–42.3%)

# Falchion Fred Lvl 11 v. CR 13 #
AC = 27
Fort, Ref, Will = 60%, 40%, 50% success
DPR = 65.3 (36.3%)

# Longsword Lou Lvl 11 v. CR 13 #
AC = 32/27
Fort, Ref, Will = 60%, 40%, 50% success
DPR = 47 (26.1%)

Silver Crusade

Comparing to <your quick build above>, I'd guess the result can be attributed to:

(1) Your Dex looks a bit too high. You write, "25 (16 +2 Human +3 level +2 Belt)," but that only adds up to 23. Plus, you should only have +2 from level at level 11, so Dex should land at 22, as it does for Two Weapon Tom.

(2) You're using gloves of dueling, which I haven't taken given my "core" restrictions.

(For the record, it looks like if I rebuilt the guy with the gloves—purchase 2 kukris +2 rather than one +3 and one +2 and drop breastplate to +2 instead of +3—, we'd get results of 1 lower AC and a DPR of 63.4, or 35.2%, in-line with Unarmed Oona with Dragon Style or Falchion Fred without gloves. Again, I don't think we should be using this as a reference point, since it's (non-optimized) apples to (optimized) oranges, but if you want the numbers there they are.)


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I'm honestly less concerned about the Monk's DPR as compared to a Fighter than I am the Monk's utility in compared to a Barbarian. The Barbarian can fly unassisted. The Barbarian can punch a friend so hard he stops being a newt. The Barbarian can bust through a wall and say "OH YEAH!", causing everyone in the room to be some variation of shaken, panicked, or stunned*.

The Monk can do none of these things.

*For reference, this is by combining Stunning Irruption with Terrifying Howl.


brightshadow360 wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Skull wrote:
I see a lot of people are still unhappy about the price of the AoMF, was anyone expecting that to be fixed in unchained?
It basically was fixed in my opinion with the automatic bonus, since you can apply the bonuses to your unarmed strikes and standard clothes.
You guys DO realize that Amulet of Mighty Fists hasn't been necessary for a monk ever right? Monks strikes count as manufactured weapons. This means that magic weapon spells work on them. greater magic weapon + permanancy (which any magic weapon shop would supply) = magical super fists. Even says this is the case right in the magic weapon spell description: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/magicWeapon.html

GMW/GMF aren't true fixes, they're band-aids slapped on the monk by another class. It is true that the Monk can play the 3.x style 'load up on abilities and GMW/GMF to the hilt' tactic - up to +5 of ability bonuses - more cheaply than one can with a manufactured weapon, but that hardly makes up for the increased dependence on a caster in the party.

Any time you're successfully dispelled, rather than a short term penalty that comes back shortly, you become a further drain on party resources to get you back up and running.

Silver Crusade

Rynjin wrote:
Less on a DPR note Joe, Wind Jump is a sad, sad thing to strive for. It requires getting the changed Slow Fall, and then getting that slap in the face of "Flight, but only if you want to use it to hop a chasm or something because it's useful for jack-all in combat".

Yeah, I have kind of mixed feelings about Wind Jump, for reasons spelled out in my comment on the Monk build. Basically, move action to activate eats a round, and then at best you're able to Spring Attack flying targets for 9 rounds. Which is better than nothing, and pretty cool, but only really works with Spring Attack [which may not work with One Touch] and isn't a super-excellent option.

(I should note that it requires High Jump, not Slow Fall. High Jump is at least a *little* more interesting.)

But in any case, that was just to fill out a Placeholder in the build (given flexibility principle); it's not central to anything we're evaluating the build on. Grab Abundant Step or whatever else you think is better.

I'd probably go for Insightful Wisdom at 8 and then maybe [evil] Ki Leech at 10 or something else not [evil] but more interesting at 10.

Silver Crusade

Arachnofiend wrote:

I'm honestly less concerned about the Monk's DPR as compared to a Fighter than I am the Monk's utility in compared to a Barbarian. The Barbarian can fly unassisted. The Barbarian can punch a friend so hard he stops being a newt. The Barbarian can bust through a wall and say "OH YEAH!", causing everyone in the room to be some variation of shaken, panicked, or stunned*.

The Monk can do none of these things.

*For reference, this is by combining Stunning Irruption with Terrifying Howl.

What sources are these drawn from? For the reasons spelled out above (Unchained Monk is uniquely unsupported by supplemental material, which is certainly a problem but not a problem with the core of the class itself), I think it's best to compare "core" Unchained Monk to "core" Barbarian or Unchained Barbarian.

And looking at the Unchained Barbarian, I'm only seeing Terrifying Howl out of those. (But I'm not super familiar with the Barbarian so I may be missing some that are in there but that you haven't named so I can't CMD+F.)

ETA: Also, even if this is true, I'm not sure just how we should judge it. If the basic Unchained Monk is competitive-or-better than a basic Fighter, then it seems to be in-line with the Pathfinder ruleset ... and the issue you're worrying about may just be the ability of (some/many/most?) martial classes in PF to get by on their own without caster support. Which may indeed be an issue, but isn't necessarily an issue for the Monk itself. I tend to think this sort of worry just turns into wanting every class to be a 6-level caster. Which is probably a bit unfair to the position, but I guess I just don't so much mind the fact that Fighters rely on Wizards and Clerics to be at their best at higher levels. *shrug*


Joe M. wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:

I'm honestly less concerned about the Monk's DPR as compared to a Fighter than I am the Monk's utility in compared to a Barbarian. The Barbarian can fly unassisted. The Barbarian can punch a friend so hard he stops being a newt. The Barbarian can bust through a wall and say "OH YEAH!", causing everyone in the room to be some variation of shaken, panicked, or stunned*.

The Monk can do none of these things.

*For reference, this is by combining Stunning Irruption with Terrifying Howl.

What sources are these drawn from? For the reasons spelled out above (Unchained Monk is uniquely unsupported by supplemental material, which is certainly a problem but not a problem with the core of the class itself), I think it's best to compare "core" Unchained Monk to "core" Barbarian or Unchained Barbarian.

And looking at the Unchained Barbarian, I'm only seeing Terrifying Howl out of those. (But I'm not super familiar with the Barbarian so I may be missing some that are in there but that you haven't named so I can't CTRL+F.)

Unassisted flight is through either Dragon Totem or Elemental Blood, second one is Spell Sunder. Stunning Irruption is a feat available to everyone but is most effectively used by the Barbarian.

I agree that it may be a bit unreasonable to expect the Unchained Monk to have the level of backing the Barbarian has, but... at the same time stuff like unassisted flight is really basic and should have come in Unchained.

Silver Crusade

Arachnofiend wrote:
I agree that it may be a bit unreasonable to expect the Unchained Monk to have the level of backing the Barbarian has, but... at the same time stuff like unassisted flight is really basic and should have come in Unchained.

Yeah, I think that might be where our judgments diverge. I see the concern but I don't so much share it myself (see the ETA to my previous post). I don't really mind that Fighters need the help of Wizards and Clerics at higher levels. (At least within the PF ruleset, flaws and all, as it exists.)


Arachnofiend wrote:

I'm honestly less concerned about the Monk's DPR as compared to a Fighter than I am the Monk's utility in compared to a Barbarian. The Barbarian can fly unassisted. The Barbarian can punch a friend so hard he stops being a newt. The Barbarian can bust through a wall and say "OH YEAH!", causing everyone in the room to be some variation of shaken, panicked, or stunned*.

The Monk can do none of these things.

*For reference, this is by combining Stunning Irruption with Terrifying Howl.

i'd love to see the barbarian become the metric for a 'balanced' martial.

even post-stamina, the fighter isn't a good example of a well-rounded mundane/martial character.

meanwhile the barbarian has gotten and continues to get love (though the unchained version is a solid nerf, it's still great)

Sovereign Court

Arachnofiend wrote:
Stunning Irruption is a feat available to everyone but is most effectively used by the Barbarian.

Why is it best for barbarians? Just because they can break through doors slightly easier? With an adamantine weapon - it's not difficult.

Any str combatant can take it - and the DC is based purely upon BAB, not Str. Actually - I'd think that fighters would benefit the most since they're not feat starved.

Though I suppose that the barbarian's boosted Con score would boost their own Fort save against it. Though from that front, Samurai would benefit more as they have resolve points. (By level 7 - they basically have resolve points to burn.)


I generally feel that, as a martial, I shouldn't rely on a caster to be able to participate in combat at all. Combat's kinda my thing. Having a caster can and should make me better at combat, but absolutely requiring a wizard to be there to be able to do anything but run away is bad design in my mind.

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Stunning Irruption is a feat available to everyone but is most effectively used by the Barbarian.

Why is it best for barbarians? Just because they can break through doors slightly easier? With an adamantine weapon - it's not difficult.

Any str combatant can take it - and the DC is based purely upon BAB, not Str. Actually - I'd think that fighters would benefit the most since they're not feat starved.

Though I suppose that the barbarian's boosted Con score would boost their own Fort save against it. Though from that front, Samurai would benefit more as they have resolve points. (By level 7 - they basically have resolve points to burn.)

Because Terrifying Howl exists. Open the combat with Stunning Irruption, then follow with Terrifying Howl. You won't see that kind of stage-setting in a combat short of a Wizard.


Joe M. wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
I agree that it may be a bit unreasonable to expect the Unchained Monk to have the level of backing the Barbarian has, but... at the same time stuff like unassisted flight is really basic and should have come in Unchained.
Yeah, I think that might be where our judgments diverge. I see the concern but I don't so much share it myself (see the ETA to my previous post). I don't really mind that Fighters need the help of Wizards and Clerics at higher levels. (At least within the PF ruleset, flaws and all, as it exists.)

So you feel a party should be better off with a Druid or Cleric or Bard or Magus or Inquisitor filling the Martial role, so the casters don't have to waste resources bringing the Martial up to par.

Got it.

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