I have one question do you have to be a certain level in the wizard or sorcerer class to play the arcanist or can you play it straight forward as a character?Arcanist is a 1-20 base class; you can begin play as an Arcanist or multiclass into it, just like a normal base class.
That's not strictly true. If you already have levels in Wizard and/or Sorcerer, you cannot take levels of Arcanist. If you have levels of Arcanist, you cannot take levels of Wizard and/or Sorcerer. You also cannot take levels in Bloodrager, as the parent classes for Bloodrager is Sorcerer and Barbarian.
so does the revised arcanist qualify for the wizard discoveries????I doubt they will. The Discoveries are a reflection of a wizard's intense study and book learning.
Arcanist sounds like he is going to be more about taking existing spells and improving them a little for slightly twisted effects. He'll have his own collection of toys to play with
I know that that Brawler counts as both Fighter and Monk for feat requirements, and I think the Swashbuckler is intended to, not sure about others.
I don't see any reason why the Arcanist wouldn't count as both Sorcerer and Wizard...
...That is, of course, unless the Arcanist is a Wisdom based caster :P
I have ideas for this class... since i am random bystander B, I'll spoiler em. But... thematically, a lot can be done with this proposed flavor...
A power @ 1, 4th, and every 3 thereafter? Something like that… maybe? Well, that is what I’m balancing these ideas after, anyway. Arcane pool of ½ arcanist level +cha bonus. Either keeping the pool as refreshed per day, or some other very limited/expensive recharge methods. Adjust numbers to balance properly of course...
Starter power 1st level default power - Spellsurge: Choose a school of magic. You may increase the CL +1 and save DC +1 of a spell from this school as it is cast. Cost 1 arcane point.
Fun stuff to see the new powers usable for:
Spontaneous metamagic: You can modify a spell being cast with a metamagic feat you know without modifying its casting time. The spell still uses up a higher level spell slot as normal. Costs 1 arcane point per modified level. (Ie maximize costs 3, still spell costs 1, etc).
Student of Fire: You may change the energy damage of a spell as it is cast to instead do fire damage. This applies to the cold, acid, electric, sonic, or force damage this spell would normally do. This does not change the casting time. Cost 1 arcane point.
Master of Fire: req Student of Fire. You may increase the damage of a spell that deals fire damage by 1 point per die. Costs 1 arcane point.
Spell Shaping: You may select out a number of 5ft squares from the affected area of any area effect spell you cast. Costs 1 arcane point per 5ft square selected out.
Power in the Blood: Choose a sorcerer bloodline when you select this ability. You gain the bloodline’s arcane ability. Treat your arcanist level as your effective sorcerer level. Reduce your maximum arcane pool 3 points.
Improved Power in the Blood: req Power in the Blood. You gain the level 1 bloodline power from the bloodline you selected for Power in the Blood. Treat your arcanist level as your effective sorcerer level. Reduce your maximum arcane pool 2 points.
Greater Power in the Blood: req Imp. Power in the Blood. You gain the level 3 bloodline power from the bloodline you selected for Power in the Blood. Treat your arcanist level as your effective sorcerer level. Reduce your maximum arcane pool 2 points.
Spell Siphon: If you successfully counterspell a spell, you gain 1 arcane point. (up to your max)
Unravel Spellcast: req Spell Siphon. You may make an attempt to counterspell as normal, except that it is an immediate action. Costs 4 arcane points.
Capture Spell: req Unravel Spellcast. If you successfully counterspell a spell, you may treat that spell as a prepared spell for 1 hour per arcanist level. (During that time you may cast is as though it where a spell known and prepared, using spell slots of the appropriate level.) Costs 1 arcane point per level of the spell counterspelled. Special: During this time, if this spell is on the wizard/sorcerer spell list, you may inscribe it into your spellbook as normal for adding spells.
Spell Gap: Req Unravel Spell, Spell Shaping. As an immediate action, if you successfully identify an area effect spell being cast, you may select out a single 5ft square within 30ft of you, from being affected by that spell. Costs 2 arcane points.
Scroll preparation: After activating a scroll normally you may, instead of casting it, treat the spell as a prepared spell for 24 hours. This consumes the scroll as if it were cast. This may only be done while preparing spells for the day. This prepared spell is in addition to your normal allowance. Costs 1 arcane point.
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I'd like to see the talents represent an ability to pull apart magic items for spell slots and talents to pull them apart for a Craft Reserve kind of thing. But have talents for the different magic item types so you dont have an Arcanist who immediately gains the this ability with with all items. Having the requisite crafting feat to take the talent would be a no brained. Talents for Voracious Dispelling too. Having very little hard coded into the chassis of the class so the feel is still "master of magical essence" but each would have different specialism and focus.
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I love the new angle on the class too by the way. I think that with the Shaman and the Arcanist I might be able to represent an approximation of the Warren system from the Malazan books. In fact the ACG classes in general seem to let me build a more Malazan-y kind of game than I could before I feel. Which is a +100000 in my book.
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Just wanted to drop in and "+1" the general reactions; I am very glad to see Paizo is willing to make huge changes to the product if necessary, and the new idea behind the Arcanist sounds interesting.
Seeing that you're truly listening to us, and are willing to take bold steps accordingly, is very encouraging. I've gone from "disinterested overall" to "will be setting some money aside for this product" accordingly. Thank you!
Yes, please! Give it something, anything - almost.
It is currently powerful, but so extremely bland that only a true number-chuncher will be able to play it. It really needs some love.
After reading it I thought about giving it a school like the wizard, but with delayed ability gain. A bloodline like the sorcerer, but again delayed. And a familier or a bonded object that allows it to change it's spells x times per day.
I like your ideas on the matter, those where just some of my own initial ones.
This seems like an awesome change. Thanks for listening, Jason!
I hope you guys can do the same for the other two classes which suffer from an identity problem, i.e. the Hunter and especially the Warpriest.
+1
I would also add Slayer and Skald to that list. Skald also suffers from being a rather weak and bland class.
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This is a guess, but are we discussing having the basic wizard mechanics with the ability to lose spells in exchange for casting spells not memorized but known.
If so, the logical approach to me would be allowing something like "Burn 2 spells to get one" or "Burn a spell of a higher level to get one of a lower level"
Similarly, one could consume a magic item to learn spells and/or get additional spells per day.
Is that where you all are going?
To my mind I think we might see abilities that mess with the basic nature of spells. For example take your standard lightning bolt. 120' straight line. But in the hands of an arcanist, a point or two from his arcane well, maybe he gets it to snake around the corner or maybe make it go 60 in front of him and 60 behind him.
Maybe he can apply something similar to Mind Warp or Manifestation effects from the Words of Power stuff to his spells. Reworking Charm Person into a Fort save spell where he moves your body like a puppet on a string.
or maybe he could change the descriptors changing Invisibility from a Glamer to a Compulsion, causing people to refuse to acknowledge your presence even though they can actually see you
To my mind I think we might see abilities that mess with the basic nature of spells. For example take your standard lightning bolt. 120' straight line. But in the hands of an arcanist, a point or two from his arcane well, maybe he gets it to snake around the corner or maybe make it go 60 in front of him and 60 behind him.
Maybe he can apply something similar to Mind Warp or Manifestation effects from the Words of Power stuff to his spells. Reworking Charm Person into a Fort save spell where he moves your body like a puppet on a string.
Charm Person and dominate person are not the same spell. Charm person makes people like you, and people typically help people they like. They aren't under your complete control, it's just easier to influence them. Dominate Person is the one that allows you to exercise control over your subject.
Love the concept and very intrigued to see a spellcaster that spins from a different direction but as an earlier poster asked is the planned hybrid for this class? Sorcerer/ Rogue for the talents and skills? Maybe Alchemist? Very excited to see this one grow!You do realize that Alchemist already exists it was introduced in the Advanced Player s Guide.
I do and am playing one currently but wasn't sure if they were changing the blend from Sorcerer/ Wizard to another concept. Just another avid gamer throwing in his two cents.
A minor thing, but a quibble I had with the original version..."spells prepared" feels like they can be discharged. Maybe "studied" or "readied"?
A minor thing, but a quibble I had with the original version..."spells prepared" feels like they can be discharged. Maybe "studied" or "readied"?
I think spells 'known' works best. They could just change out spells 'known' every morning with spells within their spellbooks. Then it matches the terminology of... well, everything else everywhere.
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One thing I've been wondering...
At the end of the day, does an Arcanist count as a spontaneous spellcaster, a prepared spellcaster, or both?
Do they qualify for Dragon Disciple? Can they make use of a pearl of power? Can they make use of a Ring of Spell Knowledge?
One thing I've been wondering...
At the end of the day, does an Arcanist count as a spontaneous spellcaster, a prepared spellcaster, or both?
Do they qualify for Dragon Disciple? Can they make use of a pearl of power? Can they make use of a Ring of Spell Knowledge?
Very good point!
I'd like it if they counted at both. :)
A bit off-topic: while I know this won't happen, I would LOVE to see a Sorc's casting stat changed to Wis, and a Cleric's changed to Cha.
I wouldn't mind seeing the arcanist be a Wis-based caster, or since it is a blend of all-things arcane, make it use ALL the mental stats in some way.
Another thing I noticed. You can apply metamagic feats both when you prepare spells and on the fly as a sorcerer does. Does this mean you can prepare an empowered Enervation and then later in the day apply Maximize Spell to it while casting? Consider the following item that would allow you to cast an Empowered Maximized Enervation using a 6th level spell slot.
Aura moderate necromancy; CL 8th
Slot none; Price 30,000 gp; Weight 5 lbs.
Description
Often given as gifts to apprentices upon reaching the rank of master, these staves come in eight different varieties, one for each school of magic. This particular staff is for the school of necromancy. Aside from acting as a +1/+1 quarterstaff, this staff allows use of the following spells:
Ray of enfeeblement (1 charge)
Spectral hand (1 charge)
Vampiric touch (2 charges)
In addition, this staff can be used to cast spells using any metamagic feats known by the wielder without increasing the spell’s level. This consumes a number of charges equal to the number of spell levels increased by the feat. No more than one feat can be applied to a spell cast by the wielder in this way. Using the staff for this purpose does not increase the casting time of the spell.
Construction Requirements
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Staff, ray of enfeeblement, spectral hand, vampiric touch; Cost 15,300 gp.
This item is significantly cheaper than a rod of maximize spell. Fortunately you only have two hands so you can't also hold a rod while doing this to get a third metamagic feat in there. Perhaps this isn't that big of an issue, or perhaps it is an issue with the item rather than with the arcanist. It will only maximize one spell before you have to recharge it. You could also just prepare your Empowered Enervation and use this staff for echoing spell to get two Empowered Enervations per day using 1 6th level spell slot. I'm just wondering about any unexpected effects certain magic items can have with this class the way it is now. This staff would increase an arcanist's versatility tenfold because you don't need to keep a bunch of metamagic rods around, just this staff.
Pretty sure the staff of the master works for both the wizard and sorcerer. Also pretty sure that the assumption in terms of balance with the staff is that while it is extremely meaningful for a single day of adventures, or a couple of encounters in the course of an adventure.
A rod can be used (sustained) nine times more often than the staff.
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Charm Person and dominate person are not the same spell. Charm person makes people like you, and people typically help people they like. They aren't under your complete control, it's just easier to influence them. Dominate Person is the one that allows you to exercise control over your subject.To my mind I think we might see abilities that mess with the basic nature of spells. For example take your standard lightning bolt. 120' straight line. But in the hands of an arcanist, a point or two from his arcane well, maybe he gets it to snake around the corner or maybe make it go 60 in front of him and 60 behind him.
Maybe he can apply something similar to Mind Warp or Manifestation effects from the Words of Power stuff to his spells. Reworking Charm Person into a Fort save spell where he moves your body like a puppet on a string.
Turns Charm person into a Pheromone Poison that makes them like you then, My point was to apply the Manifestation effect of turning a Will save into a Fort save for the spell.
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Pretty sure the staff of the master works for both the wizard and sorcerer. Also pretty sure that the assumption in terms of balance with the staff is that while it is extremely meaningful for a single day of adventures, or a couple of encounters in the course of an adventure.
A rod can be used (sustained) nine times more often than the staff.
Ok how about the same thing but with Disintegrate instead of Enervation? Prepare it Empowered then cast on the fly with Maximize Spell using the staff. This would take a level 8 spell slot. You would need either a greater metamagic rod of maximize(121,500gp), or this staff for 30,000gp. Only the Arcanist is capable of doing this combo. No other class that I am aware of can prepare spells with metamagic feats on them and then add them later unless they use a rod. Using the Arcanist, you can prepare a spell with a metamagic feat on it, apply one while casting, and use a metamagic rod to apply another. Once you prepare a spell with a metamagic feat on it, all your spell slots of that level can be used for that spell.
Level 16 Arcanist Maximized Empowered Disintegrate: 32*6=192+96=288 Damage
All I'm saying is they should probably go with one or the other. Either you have to prepare your spells with metamagic feats on them, or you have to apply them on the fly. I think allowing both is giving them too much versatility.
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It's not a horrible idea to go for overpowered in a playtest. Lets you find the limits better. For the published material, I'm always a fan of making things a bit weaker since it's easier to power up than power down :)
While I think you may be right Robert, playtest data is the best way to get to the Pathfinder Design Team. Next to scotch.
It's not a horrible idea to go for overpowered in a playtest. Lets you find the limits better. For the published material, I'm always a fan of making things a bit weaker since it's easier to power up than power down :)
While I think you may be right Robert, playtest data is the best way to get to the Pathfinder Design Team. Next to scotch.
:D
Ok how about the same thing but with Disintegrate instead of Enervation? Prepare it Empowered then cast on the fly with Maximize Spell using the staff. This would take a level 8 spell slot. You would need either a greater metamagic rod of maximize(121,500gp), or this staff for 30,000gp.
An 8th level spell slot (of which a 16th level arcanist would have 1) and a 30,000gp item that can only be done once every three days to do a lot of damage against an opponent if you hit them with a touch attack, beat their SR, and they fail their save? Yeah, I don't really see this as an issue.
Only the Arcanist is capable of doing this combo. No other class that I am aware of can prepare spells with metamagic feats on them and then add them later unless they use a rod. Using the Arcanist, you can prepare a spell with a metamagic feat on it, apply one while casting, and use a metamagic rod to apply another. Once you prepare a spell with a metamagic feat on it, all your spell slots of that level can be used for that spell.
That's an interesting reading of the Staff of the Master, and not one that I arrived at (nor did anyone I know). I'd actually be curious as to a developer response on this (somewhere else perhaps). My reading of the staff of the master is that it allows anyone to (arcane or spontaneous) to expend charges to power metamagic on a spell they are casting without increasing casting time. It allows metamagic without extra casting time for sorcerers (and spells of higher level than normal) along with spontaneous metamagic for a wizard.
I think triple metamagic application is unlikely to be a real problem.
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BUt that woudl make the rogue obsolete.Sorcerers get two plus int. Why should the arcanist have more?In a system with such active and vigorous errata, the question you should be asking is, "Why does anyone still have 2+Int?". Skills aren't precisely powerhouses but they're great for rounding out the flavor of a character and there's no need to shaft anyone with low skill points or narrow skill lists. Just about every class in the game could get 2 additional skill points per level and be just fine, balance-wise, while making the act of actually bringing concepts to life infinitely easier.
After reading the Dreamscarred Press' playtest thread for Paths of War, I'm not sure that Prince actually cares about making some classes obsolete :)
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After reading the Dreamscarred Press' playtest thread for Paths of War, I'm not sure that Prince actually cares about making some classes obsolete :)BUt that woudl make the rogue obsolete.Sorcerers get two plus int. Why should the arcanist have more?In a system with such active and vigorous errata, the question you should be asking is, "Why does anyone still have 2+Int?". Skills aren't precisely powerhouses but they're great for rounding out the flavor of a character and there's no need to shaft anyone with low skill points or narrow skill lists. Just about every class in the game could get 2 additional skill points per level and be just fine, balance-wise, while making the act of actually bringing concepts to life infinitely easier.
I didn't exclude Rogue from getting more skill points. Frankly those guys could probably get 4 more instead of 2 more and still be ready to roll.
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I hope this new version, that sounds great, also change the capstone ability at level 20, right now is just underpowered and lackluster for the final and most powerful ability of a class
After reading the Dreamscarred Press' playtest thread for Paths of War, I'm not sure that Prince actually cares about making some classes obsolete :)BUt that woudl make the rogue obsolete.Sorcerers get two plus int. Why should the arcanist have more?In a system with such active and vigorous errata, the question you should be asking is, "Why does anyone still have 2+Int?". Skills aren't precisely powerhouses but they're great for rounding out the flavor of a character and there's no need to shaft anyone with low skill points or narrow skill lists. Just about every class in the game could get 2 additional skill points per level and be just fine, balance-wise, while making the act of actually bringing concepts to life infinitely easier.
it's ALREADY obsolete with these new whippersnappers running about.
Interesting, kind of sounds like the magic item leeching of the Age of Mortals of Dragonlance.
Will the Arcanist in the pdf be updated before the playtest is over?
It should considering this class is getting a overhaul, but it will take some time to write out the class abilities and present their options so I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see anything till mid December.
ONE QUESTION
WHAT HAPPENS IF THE ARCANIST GETS AHOLD OF SOMEONE'S BONDED OBJECT OR STICK THAT HAS BEEN SHILLELEIGHED OR FAMILIER OR ANIMAL COMPANION...?
you get the picture.
qualls tokens
Obsolete?
I've said it before, ban wizard and fighter and everything suddenly becomes awesome.
what does the fighter do thats so broken?
why does it need to be broken?
It's not broken.
It can emulate almost any class out there that's fighter-ish.
and besides this ain't the place for this, i started a new thread on this.
ONE QUESTION
WHAT HAPPENS IF THE ARCANIST GETS AHOLD OF SOMEONE'S BONDED OBJECT OR STICK THAT HAS BEEN SHILLELEIGHED OR FAMILIER OR ANIMAL COMPANION...?
you get the picture.
qualls tokens
caps hurt....
So, instead of ripping the magic out of cheap items and disposing of them like a used tissue you'd probably either be burning a number of uses of that magic or causing a dampening effect similar to that of dispel magic.
Tada. The item isn't gone forever or broken or anything of that nature. It's just not available for a period of time.
Also... why would the arcanist be sacrificing animals in the middle of combat? Sure, there's an innate magical bond there, but those are living critters and not objects. For instance, dispel magic doesn't work on a critter's bond, so why should it work on an animal companion or familiar?
ONE QUESTION
WHAT HAPPENS IF THE ARCANIST GETS AHOLD OF SOMEONE'S BONDED OBJECT OR STICK THAT HAS BEEN SHILLELEIGHED OR FAMILIER OR ANIMAL COMPANION...?
you get the picture.
qualls tokens
caps hurt....
So, instead of ripping the magic out of cheap items and disposing of them like a used tissue you'd probably either be burning a number of uses of that magic or causing a dampening effect similar to that of dispel magic.
Tada. The item isn't gone forever or broken or anything of that nature. It's just not available for a period of time.
Also... why would the arcanist be sacrificing animals in the middle of combat? Sure, there's an innate magical bond there, but those are living critters and not objects. For instance, dispel magic doesn't work on a critter's bond, so why should it work on an animal companion or familiar?
I think it's more of the terrifying thought that there is a caster out there capable of tearing apart and 'eating' the highly personal and special magic bond between a caster and their familiar.
A 'vampire' of Magic should be the equivalent of the boogey man for casters.
ONE QUESTION
WHAT HAPPENS IF THE ARCANIST GETS AHOLD OF SOMEONE'S BONDED OBJECT OR STICK THAT HAS BEEN SHILLELEIGHED OR FAMILIER OR ANIMAL COMPANION...?
you get the picture.
qualls tokens
caps hurt....
So, instead of ripping the magic out of cheap items and disposing of them like a used tissue you'd probably either be burning a number of uses of that magic or causing a dampening effect similar to that of dispel magic.
Tada. The item isn't gone forever or broken or anything of that nature. It's just not available for a period of time.
Also... why would the arcanist be sacrificing animals in the middle of combat? Sure, there's an innate magical bond there, but those are living critters and not objects. For instance, dispel magic doesn't work on a critter's bond, so why should it work on an animal companion or familiar?
I think it's more of the terrifying thought that there is a caster out there capable of tearing apart and 'eating' the highly personal and special magic bond between a caster and their familiar.
A 'vampire' of Magic should be the equivalent of the boogey man for casters.
Not bad.
The Black magician series by Trudy Canavan have somthing that could inspire an arctype pehaps. But that could as well be a wizard AT i guess.
Love the new direction!
The "disassemble spell" mechanic sounds like it could lead to a post-battle debuff phase, where the arcanists dissembles all the buff spells both his party and the enemy have (and which are about to run out) in order to rebuild the arcane pool.
Something should probably be done to prevent this before it derails the new cool idea.
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I've loved raw magic wielders for a while since shandril shessare or whatever her name was, when she could leach power from permanent magic items, and protect herself or strike out with some pretty potent raw magic throw downs, and even consume spells thrown against her , a much better readied dispel that would add to her magic reservoir. It's nice to see a version that can cast spells. But maybe be the first class to decide : let the player choose cha or int from the outset, or launch it with a archetype to just switch it; Cha focus to roleplay it as more of a force of personality willing the magic appart, or int based, unravelling the cosmos around them.
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Also... why would the arcanist be sacrificing animals in the middle of combat? Sure, there's an innate magical bond there, but those are living critters and not objects. For instance, dispel magic doesn't work on a critter's bond, so why should it work on an animal companion or familiar?
Tangentially, I know a gunslinger that keeps a haversack of dead animals for during combat, and disarming traps...