MikeY NooDleZ's page

Hey there folks,

There has been a lot of discussion about the Arcanist and most of the feedback resolves around how much the class sits between the Sorcerer and the Wizard without offering a unique view on arcane casting. The design team agrees and we are going back to the drawing board on some aspects of this class.

To that end, some of the parts of this class are back in design and we are hoping to share the revisions with you very soon. Before we get to that, I wanted to share with you the new direction we are exploring to get some feedback and hear your thoughts before we get too far down the trail on the revisions.

First off, lets talk about the overall theme of the class.
We are dropping the weak bloodline concept and taking this class in a different direction to give it its own conceptual space. Here is what we have in mind:

Arcanist
Some spellcasters weave magic into a beautiful tapestry. Others draw upon their innate gift to produce magic. The arcanist takes a different route. Seeing magic for what it really is, the arcanist is able to pull apart magic, ripping the bonds that hold it together and forcing it to obey her will. It is not an easy task, but it allows her to use magic like no other. She can consume her spells, and eventually those of magic items and other spellcasters, to fuel her powers. She can use the raw essence of magic to create powerful effects, both wondrous and deadly.

We are pretty excited about this as a concept. The arcanist goes from someone who is half wizard, half sorcerer to an arcane spellcaster that focuses on tinkering with the fundamental forces of magic, tearing apart the bonds and forging new ones with its power. This understanding also allows her to cast in a new way (represented by the existing spellcasting mechanics).

Of course, that is not all we are doing to this class. To match up with its new flavor, we are reworking a number of its class features. Blood Focus is being pulled, along with its bonus feats for an entirely new class feature....

This... Sounds pretty awesome... As long as the arcanist keeps the way it spontaneously cats prepared spells, and I do like the +1 save dc and cl

i realize that it's probably hubris to make suggestions to the professionals, but i figured that perhaps a new perspective might somehow aid in your arrival at the exceptional final product we all know you will release...

so here are my (apparently not so humble) suggestions for addressing a few of the issues raised in the class discussions. if i understand the terms of service of the forums these are now your intellectual property just because i posted them, but if that's not the case i waive my right to them and donate them to you to use as you see fight. they'll likely come to you complete with community feedback (which i suspect might not all be positive, lol)

** spoiler omitted **...

i do like the idea you had with the arcanist... its different then either the sor or wiz class abilities,, but seems in theme with them, and seems to flow a bit more than how the blood focus is now... plus its just cooler than the blood focus... lets face it.. sor bloodline powers suck for an arcanist... though, the power player in me screams NO! BASE IT OFF INT!! INT!! lol... but basing it off cha DOES seems keeping in hybrid theme more

slayer_of_gellcor wrote:

Not my own character, but I GMed an evil underdark game, where a player brought in a priestess of Lolth, who was actually a high Charisma rogue with Skill Focus: Use Magic Device.

I did that once... save instead of being a drow thrallherd I was a human thrallherd with a magic item that made him look drow.

That and instead of being CE he was CG... and right before the game was to end I killed a matron mother with decerebrate and teleported to the surface.

Turns out that when a thrallherd gets more than 1000 miles from his thralls...they regain free will...

One of said thralls was a 16hd beholder... it didn't end well for the party...

I wonder why those guys won't let me play at their table anymore ^_^

got one better than that lol...

i friend of mine was playing a high level 3.5 forgotten realms campaign... playing a half fiendish cleric of myrkul (god of dead n general evilness... favored weapon scythe) posing as a cleric of pelor (goody-2-shoes god) has his unholy symbol hidden in a holy symbol of pelor with a permanent nondetection spell on it.. n carried a butt-load of misdirection potions on him (ya know in case a paladin happened to be giving him the stink eye) he ended up framing the PC druid for poisoning a towns well and murdering and entire town, started a civial war, n was generally responsible for the "mysterious bad guy" stuff the PCs were chasing after... after playing for nearly 2 years out of game... the climax campaign end scene was them finding BBEG lair (minus BBEG)... n the cleric turns around, sits down on the throne, puts on his BBEG hat n says.. come get some... jaws dropped... it was amazing n best ever roleplaying

My first impression was "Holy crap this is OP!" then I started comparing it to classes that were not the rogue class... I really do think that this class will almost completely replace the rogue for anybody who cares about system mastery. Its' very existence makes rogue a 'Trap option.' That being said I think it is time I gave up on the rogue being a valuable party member and jumped on this Investigator thing.

other than for sneak attack, or as a skill monkey, the rogue hasnt been valuable in awhile, theres several archetypes that replace trap finding (seeker comes to mind... a sorcerer or oracle that can find traping as a rogue does? sweet!)...

i have 2 things to say about this class...

1) AWESOME JOB

2) snake style + Expanded Inspiration+Empathy + Tenacious Inspiration + Amazing Inspiration = you will never hit me again mwahahaha

I do have one question as far as Society Play is concerned...

I've never gotten to "playtest" anything in Society play. I saw that the playtesting is closed as of Dec 17th, does this mean if i say make an arcanist for societ play i can no longer play it in society until the Advanced Class Guide comes out? or am i allowed to continue to play it?

Hey there folks,

I think a lot of the calls of "overpowered" will play out to be untrue in actual play examples, but I will gladly wait to see those come in (thanks thought to the folks who did some build analysis, we did that work weeks ago when building the class, but at least I dont have to repost it).

I am very much in the middle of the road on the Blood Focus class feature to be honest. I am thinking that in the coming days I will endeavor to workshop it with folks here on the boards to come up with something better. Currently it feels too much like a hodge podge to me and I am sure we can do better.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

my sentiments exactly jason, on both accounts. i can foresee archetypes swinging the blood focus back and forth between better usage of bloodline abilities and even adding some wizard school powers (wink, wink, nudge, nudge say-no-more, say-no-more). or atleast for-going the bloodline powers entirely for static bloodline arcana would be nicer (and simpler imho)

MikeY NooDleZ wrote:

i think you are over reacting here... seriously ban it in your games? as a GM for a home game thats your prerogative.. but it isnt overpowered, at all... they can learn the same number of spells a wizard can in the same way, all they really have is SLIGHT versatility in spontaneous casting there PREPARED spells, its not like they can take fast study of something and switch out spells prepared to make them more useful, or have ANY other class abilities other than Blood Focus, and once that's gone, its like playing a 3.0 Sorcerer with no familiar and less spells known...

Arcanist gets all the prepared goodness of Wizards without having to worry about not having the right spell at the right time (not anymore than Sorcerers and Wizards, at least). It's a sorcerer who can learn all spells in her spell list and change them as she wishes every day. And, just to top it off, she gets Scribe Scroll and the ability to boost the CL and DC of some of her spells, which is way more powerful than a few bloodline powers. Wizard spell-casting is most likely the most powerful ability in the game. This is a class who makes it even more versatile.

That's far beyond what I call "slight versatility". Do you honestly think not having a familiar is that much of a disadvantage? Class features where never what made casters powerful.

AS it is, the Arcanist completely obsoletes Sorcerers and, at higher levels, Wizards.

I've GMed and still GM for all sorts of powerful classes and builds and I hate banning stuff, but I wouldn't think twice before banning this class. Check my post history if you want... If something is so broken that even I wouldn't allow it, it must be way too powerful.

If this class was a spontaneous caster with a bit of vancian casting or maybe something similar to the Spellbinder archetype, it would be okay. But a prepared arcane caster who can cast spontaneously is completely out of touch with any semblance of balance with the other classes, except for the most optimized of...

1) a sorcerer can take scribe scroll (paying the same scribing costs as an arcanist) AND scribe scroll is banned in PFS play anyways

2) arcanists still have to prepare the right spells to maximize useful-ness, other wise they are as hosed as a fire mage against a red dragon

3) they have less prepared spells than a sorcerer has spells known

4) they have NO access to ANY wizard specialized schools and 90% of all the bloodlines arent nearly as useful to an arcanist as a sorcerer

5) blood Focus is still LIMITED USE (3+1/2 level, -1 if you want to avoid fatigued), so while sure a +1 to Save DC and CL is awesome (IF youre a blaster), its way less useful for most other builds.. seriously,, what does a diviner, or summoning arcanist need with the +1 save dc?...

6) NO, i do not think having a familiar is a serious disadvantage... BUT, if you actually read the post, i said after an arcanist blows his wad of blood focus points he's less useful then a 3.0 sorcerer with no familiar

7) the arcanist DOES NOT make EITHER sorcerer or wizard obsolete, at ANY level, they are still better over-all than the arcanist... again, arcanists have no access to specialized school abilities or static sorcerer bloodlines abilities or ANY of the bloodline arcana abilities for that matter...

so, in conclusion, how is a 3.0 wizard (with no school specialization, no familiar, a SLIGHT ability to be more versatile in spells known for the day, and less bonus feats) so godly over-powered (as you seem to insist) than either a pathfinder sorcerer or wizard?

This is a class so powerful it makes Sorcerers (and maybe Wizards too) seem like puny weaklings. It's almost funny how overpowered this class is. And spontaneous-casting Wizard who can increase the CL and DC of his spells. It's supposed disadvantages are all but irrelevant. Having no familiar and getting spells 1 level later does not come even close to balancing its absurd versatility and RAW power.

I know balance is secondary priority at best, but the Arcanist screws it so badly that I'm can't imagine the game not suffering because of it. Hell, even the illusion of balance is broken. One look at the Arcanist and even a new player can see how much better than Sorcerers (and maybe Wizards too) it is.

I'm a very liberal GM and don't usually mind players using powerful combos and spells. Those who play with me know that I most often allow all sorts of powerful stuff in my games. Classes, feats, spells... Whatever.

I have no problem dealing with TWF Gunslingers, Synthesist Summoners, God Wizards, or any other of those things so often called "overpowered".

Even so, the Arcanist as it is has the dubious honor of being the first and only class that made me think two things I never thought about any other class in the game: "I wish they hadn't created this" and "This is definitely banned in every game I GM".

i think you are over reacting here... seriously ban it in your games? as a GM for a home game thats your prerogative.. but it isnt overpowered, at all... they can learn the same number of spells a wizard can in the same way, all they really have is SLIGHT versatility in spontaneous casting there PREPARED spells, its not like they can take fast study of something and switch out spells prepared to make them more useful, or have ANY other class abilities other than Blood Focus, and once that's gone, its like playing a 3.0 Sorcerer with no familiar and less spells known...

To Ernest Mueller, Soluzar, Lemmy, Psyren, Saidoro and everyone else predicting the end of the world - your arguments would be more persuasive if they were backed up by either of the following.

(most convincingly)
1. Playtest results. Tell us specifically how they ended the world in your game. What specific combination of available spells. What opportunity to reprepare. Tell us what level you were playing at, what your point buy was, what wealth was, what the party composition was, and what adventure you were running through. Were there other arcane casters? Were they overshadowed? Tell us how your group usually plays. Are you casual gamers? High level optimizers? Somewhere in-between the two? Be as highly detailed and specific as you possibly can. . Keep in mind that the game is not designed around high level optimization.

(less convincingly)
2. Demonstrative examples of how an arcanist matches up against a wizard or sorcerer (as I provided) in terms of spells available and other options. Right now I haven't seen anything offered except supposition. I see no response to concrete examples even in the theoretical sense.

Continuing to yell that they are broken based entirely on theory craft is not convincing to anyone and not productive in the conversation. At present the worst I can see is a slightly higher probably than a wizard of having a needed spell that the wizard only prepared once and already cast or the potential that a highly specific spell is needed and the arcanist knew exactly what it was going in compared to a sorcerer.

Both of these seem sort of like outside hedges, and neither seems likely to be game breaking on nearly the level suggested by some.

OK, in answer to Peter Stewart, (and to prove the Anarchist isn't over powered) here’s my take…

I have included 0-level spells in the “Total spells cast per Day” at each level because we all known with the right builds you can achieve 10+ damage with ray of frost.

Sorcerer
Level 1 – Stats: Str 7, Dex 14, Con, 14, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 17 [19 with racial bonus]
Spells Known: 4 / 2
Spells per Day: 4 / 4
Total of 8 spells cast per day

Level 5 – Stats: Str 7, Dex 14, Con, 14, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 17 [20 with racial bonus and 4th level boost]
Spells Known: 6 / 4 / 2
Spells per Day: 6 / 8 / 5
Total of 19 spells cast per day

Level 10 – Stats: Str 7, Dex 14, Con, 14, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 17 [21 with racial bonus and 4th & 8th level boost]
Spells Known: 9 / 5 / 4 / 3 / 2 / 1
Spells per Day: 9 / 8 / 7 / 7 / 6 / 4
Total of 32 spells cast per day

Specialist Wizard
Spells known is assuming no additional spells other than at-level minimum were learned
Spells per day is including specialist extra spell slot

Level 1 – Stats: Str 11, Dex 14, Con, 14, Int 17 [19 with racial bonus], Wis 10, Cha 7
Spells Known: All Cantrips / 7
Spells per Day: 3 / 3
Total of 6 spells cast per day

Level 5 – Stats: Str 11, Dex 14, Con, 14, Int 17 [20 with racial bonus and 4th level boost], Wis 10, Cha 7
Spells Known: All Cantrips / 10 / 4 / 2
Spells per Day: 4 / 6 / 4 / 3
Total of 17 spells cast per day

Level 10 – Stats: Str 11, Dex 14, Con, 14, Int 17 [21 with racial bonus and 4th & 8th level boost], Wis 10, Cha 7
Spells Known: All Cantrips / 10 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 4
Spells per Day: 4 / 7 / 6 / 5 / 5 / 4
Total of 31 spells cast per day

Arcanist
Spells known is assuming no additional spells other than at-level minimum were learned, and is what is in the Arcanist’s spellbook, not “spells prepared”
Spells per day is including specialist extra spell slot

Level 1 – Stats: Str 11, Dex 14, Con, 14, Int 17 [19 with racial bonus], Wis 10, Cha 7
Spells Known: All Cantrips / 7
Spells per Day: 4 / 3
Total of 7 spells cast per day

Level 5 – Stats: Str 11, Dex 14, Con, 14, Int 17 [20 with racial bonus and 4th level boost], Wis 10, Cha 7
Spells Known: All Cantrips / 12 / 4
Spells per Day: 6 / 7 / 4
Total of 17 spells cast per day

Level 10 – Stats: Str 11, Dex 14, Con, 14, Int 17 [21 with racial bonus and 4th & 8th level boost], Wis 10, Cha 7
Spells Known: All Cantrips / 12 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 2
Spells per Day: 9 / 7 / 6 / 6 / 5 / 3
Total of 36 spells cast per day

As everyone can see, the number of spells an Arcanist can cast is right in the middle of Wizard and Sorcerer.

I want to add at this point (and because everyone else seemed to have glossed over it) because the Arcanist counts as an “Alternate Class” for the Sor/Wiz, you CAN’T multiclass them, so no dipping.

Now, if you take this, and compare an Arcanist to, say the “Blaster” Wizard (Admixture Focused with a level dip into Cross-blooded Sorcerer – Orc/Draconic Bloodline) there is no comparison to the damage output, or versatility (with admixture) to blast spells.
Besides, how is Blood Focus as good as (or better than) almost ANY of the Wizard Specialist school powers? Insane initiative, free short range teleporting, extra damage (or switching elements), the bonus vs spells from void school, etc., etc., are all better (or generally more useful) than a +1 to Save DC and CL (limited uses per day I might add, a 10th level Arcanist only has 8, 7 if they don’t want to be fatigued, to be split between adding to CL & Save DCs or using a bloodline ability).

As for Sorcerer Bloodlines, with the way Blood Focus works, for the most part there are useless for an Arcanist, or at best situational, but personally I’d much rather be spending my blood focus points on the +1 to CL & DCs.

The Arcanist is no more or less versatile or powerful than a Sorcerer or Wizard, just different.

This class is way too powerful. It's only significant disadvantage compared to a Wizard is getting the spells 1 level later. Not getting bonus spells from high Int scores really doesn't matter when you get scribe scrolls as a bonus feat and can easily afford stuff like pearls of power.

The Arcanist suffers from the same problem of Firearms. They gave it a very powerful mechanic and then had to come up with all sorts of contrived weaknesses to compensate, but, instead of making it all but completely useless to everyone but a single class, the "weaknesses"of the Arcanist don't come even close to balance the power of a full-casting Int-based spontaneous caster who is capable of learning all spells in her spell list.

This class is going to be a serious problem for game balance.

Make it more like a sorcerer, but Int based, with fewer spells per day (same number as a Wizard) and with a single vancian spell slot per spell level instead of Bloodline spells (that maybe increase to 2 vancian slots per spell level at some point). This vancian spell slot would be the equivalent to Wizards' specialized school spell slot.

Much more balanced, still keeps its flavor and doesn't require bizarre exception to the rules that barely impact the effectiveness of the class ("you don't get spells from high Int scores").

I honestly do not see how this is true.. YES an arcanist can "Spontaneously cast spells" or alter metamagic on the fly.. and the blood focus is cool (adding +1 CL and Save DCs is NEVER a bad thing), but in order to use blood focus or a bloodline ability you have to spend a point to use it. and yeah sure at higher levels this may be alot, but 3 + 1/2 your arcanist level isnt that much at lower levels... and has no one considered that from what ive seen, that these classes could be more for PFS play?

Speaking from a non-mechanical view I like how this spell casting works.

His Blood Focus to me feels a little empty as he has access to only one bloodline, yet has to use his focus points to gain his abilities (permanent ones are only temporary). his final power also while it may have a mechanical significance doesn't scream ultimate to me.

But enough about personal dislikes, onto the helpful hints.

I would do one of two things to improve this class,

A.I would remove his blood focus and just give him the bloodline, minus the bloodline arcana & the 20th level bloodline power which I would replace, along with school supremacy, with the wizard specialized school 20th level power.
-example: an Arcanist with the Illusion specialization gains the Extended Illusions power (only at 20th with full power, or growing over the levels).

B.Have him gain access to multiple (limited in number) bloodlines so that there are some selections available. Would still do the same 20th level power as option A.

there is my 2 cents on the Arcainist.

Personally i like the idea of the blood focus, though i think it DOES need some re-working. I spent awhile going over all the sorcerer bloodlines and honestly RAW for the arcanist most of the bloodlines really arent THAT useful(especially considering wild-blooded bloodlines count as an archetype), especially considering you have to spent a point to use it... i would much rather spend those points on upping my CL & Save DCs. i would much rather keep the blood focus, add the bloodline feats to the list of bonus arcanist feats, add the bloodline arcana & bonus bloodline spells, and maybe a (lower-level) bloodline power

no... right in the description of the feat is says "Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any ONE metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level."

meaning you can apply say quicken to a 5th level spell, but not 6th or higher etc.

You would provoke. You wouldn't if you dipped MoMS monk or Unarmed Fighter, though, and you'd be able to Crane Style!

As a side note: many take the wording of Enforcer to allow for frostbite when delivered via Spellstrike (myself included)to activate the free-action demoralize. But... you won't get it until 2nd level unless you go Skirnir (there may be other archetypes that give Spellstrike at level 1).

i have a character similar to this... except he is a hexcrafter magus with a 2 level dip into white-haired witch

he can completely incapacitate nearly any creature inflicting Grappled, Staggered, Fatigued, Entangled, Prone, Shaken and Blind conditions as a full round action witnin a 15 ft reach