have a level 4 human archer who made a great build with the starting help of the "rich parents" trait. he is truly deadly from distance range, and with precise shot. what fun ideas could we come up with to bring him down to earth. he is playing a fun yet rich arrogant trustfund baby, who needs to be knocked down a peg, or at least made to see that he is not invincible. lol, love to hear any suggestions..
Being killed tends to make one feel not-so-invincible. He should get killed by a wealthy archer just for the irony :D [/QUOTE
wow, those are some very expensive arrows protruding from my chest. this guy must be rich like me!!!! lol
nice!!!
He could fall for a be-ut-te-ful lady whose parents came up from nothing. Said lady could be completely unimpressed with the archer's background and expect him to prove himself to her through deeds.
She could also tweek him/deflate his ego with his various faults, and generally show him up at his own game (perhaps she's higher level than him, for now).
Or maybe the limitations of medium-level archery just gets demonstrated to him by a few fights in tight quarters. Not that every fight should be that way, but if he gets whacked on the back of the head enough he'll learn his limitations.
After all, as the man said. . .
Hubris is often interesting in a character. The puncture will come, inevitably. Perhaps the best idea for how to knock him down a peg is for it to happen naturally.
Wow, I just keep running into you on these forums today Mr. Towerfell. Tell me, do you hate Nickelback?Being killed tends to make one feel not-so-invincible. He should get killed by a wealthy archer just for the irony :D [/QUOTE
wow, those are some very expensive arrows protruding from my chest. this guy must be rich like me!!!! lol
nice!!!
lol, maybe not as much as you, but I will say that I hate the goo-goo dolls.
It depends what you are looking for here. i.e. In game vs out of game peg taking down-ness.
In game, I would let there be a situation in a small area which it is tough to bring the bow to bear, or just have an enemy run around the others to grapple or even sunder his bow. This lets him know he needs other doing their role in order to be great at his.
If you are looking to make the player understand that he is not all powerful, I would re-read the full section on cover and concealment and make sure you are using those. Precise shot only negates the penalty for shooting into melee combat, these other two are still in effect. this will change his hit chance a lot (at low levels... if he planned well he can be getting improved precise shot at 6th and this will be less of an issue).
Sean Mahoney
Swarms. Always swarms.
Tight areas, large numbers, and swarms!
Swarms. Always swarms.
right now the archer ranger is level 4 and he will hit a goblin with a roll of 3 or higher. they are playing rise of the runelords and just finished the top level of thistletop. i'll be totally bummed if he takes out the bbeg with 2 arrows. the group has 7 players and although they are happy to win these encounters, not much for them to do but mop up the pieces after he turns them into pincushions
A warp wood (L2 Druid) or shatter (L2 everyone else) spell timed well can shut down many archers for a bit. Most, I notice, do not carry a second bow.
I doubt he can do it with two arrows unless he crits. Are you accounting for cover and firing into melee? Well he probably has precise shot, but soft cover should still be an issue at this point.
How much damage is he doing, on average, per round? Even if using rapid shot and with gravity bow, he has 2 shots per round with a -2/-2 he is still only doing 2d6+str bonus, if he has a compound bow. That's not to bad.
Is it the damage he is doing or is it the way he is RPing his character?
and sunder. bows have crappy hardness/HPs.
if archery is so effective, then defenses like windwall or obscuring mist (better miss chance=50% for non-adjacent squares but it hampers spell targetting and general perception to notice where characters are, so windwall sometimes is better) or darkness (spell - melee can get blindfight, ranged can't) would be commonplace.
also, melee NPCs getting in his face and having the reach (or step up) so he can't 5' step away to safety.
(either they are a large character with reach weapon/extra reach, or a small/medium character with both reach and 'normal' weapon simultaneously threatening)
provoking for EACH SHOT in a full attack is not fun, when the enemy 2-handers are getting more damage per hit.
thus, charging an archer is often a good idea to get them harried in threat range.
other melee combatants (including your NPCs) need to understand AoOs and maneuver to make them happen more.
that is the prime advantage of melee weapons, after all. if they can't do that, they will underperform.
Enemy fighters with step-up would expose him to plenty of attacks of opportunity, although you have to get to melee range in the first place.
Invisible fighters with step-up, that's what you need. Invisible fighters with step-up, combat reflexes and sneak attack. And death rays. Death rays are always good.
Alternatively, a ray of enfeeblement so he can't draw his bow would mess up his archery for an encounter without being super-vindictive or being clearly designed to screw him over (ray of enfeeblement, EVERY npc wizard should have this).
First of all read very very well the rules on cover, soft cover and partial cover.
After that, yes he will become more powerful as he levels up, yes in PF dedicated archers are way too powerful, yes he might wreck your campaign.
First answer, ask him not to make his character a dedicated archer (offer him a rebuild if he really has set up his character for a dedicated archer).
Second answer, fickle winds.
also, smoke (which can just be mundane from burning fires) works similarly to fog, if slightly different:
20% miss chance (DOESN'T have full concealment for non-adjacent squares ala fog - wierd difference there, IMHO),
DC15 check to avoid spending round choking/coughing and 1d6 non-lethal (+1DC/check, independent of if you pass or fail them)
Mundanes can hold their breath before entering smoke easily enough (if the smoke doesn't suddenly appear),
but it's not nice for spellcasters (with Verbal spells).
having smoke or fog be present in the area without any spells is more than plausible.
also, dim lighting's miss chance (since he's human).
Without using magic, simple mundane weather will often be bad news for an archer. Having it raining and windy will mean he has to face penalties to his attack rolls, perhaps some miss chance for fog and such as well.
The innocent question "how is the weather?" will often be bad news for an archer, whereas it'll most likely not matter to a melee fighter or a spellcaster.
have a level 4 human archer who made a great build with the starting help of the "rich parents" trait. he is truly deadly from distance range, and with precise shot. what fun ideas could we come up with to bring him down to earth. he is playing a fun yet rich arrogant trustfund baby, who needs to be knocked down a peg, or at least made to see that he is not invincible. lol, love to hear any suggestions..
Easiest fix in the world, and one I wish we would see a lot more of in games:
Keep track of ammunition.
Swarms. Always swarms.right now the archer ranger is level 4 and he will hit a goblin with a roll of 3 or higher. they are playing rise of the runelords and just finished the top level of thistletop. i'll be totally bummed if he takes out the bbeg with 2 arrows. the group has 7 players and although they are happy to win these encounters, not much for them to do but mop up the pieces after he turns them into pincushions
I might need a little help with this one.
He hits a goblin with a roll of 3 or higher. A typical Goblin has an AC 16, so that would mean that he has a +13 attack bonus. Let's see...
+4 BAB
+5 DEX
+1 Weapon Focus
+1 Point Blank Shot
+1 Magic Weapon
That's +12, assuming the goblins are always within 30' which also means they are always a single move action away from him... now I have to believe that he's using Rapid Shot which imposes a -2 attack penalty (and not using Deadly Aim), so where did the other +3 attack bonus come from?
Sounds like either you need to do a character audit or you have been deliberately letting characters get a bit over-powered for their level. And as an aside, groups with 7 players make me cringe - you've got to be doubling the encounter size/difficulty, yes?
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Looking past the excessive use of "lol" in this thread...
Rich Parents is a terrible trait. I have no idea how that helped anything.
Ranged focused build will be strong due to it's ability to Full Attack more often.
Anything that provides miss chance will take him down a peg.
Also, as suggested, keep track of ammunition.
Looking past the excessive use of "lol" in this thread...
Rich Parents is a terrible trait. I have no idea how that helped anything.
Ranged focused build will be strong due to it's ability to Full Attack more often.
Anything that provides miss chance will take him down a peg.
Also, as suggested, keep track of ammunition.
Yeah, but at 4th levela Full Atttack is still basically just one attack per round (two if he takes the penalty).
You make a good point about miss chances - partial cover is probably a LOT more applicable than many GM's take into account.
I can get him to +12 using a +1 Composite Longbow with +2 Strength bonus, using just a straight fighter build. Of course, that assumes normal starting gold for level 4. And not using Deadly Aim but using Point Blank Shot.
Composite bows allow you to add strength damage, but do not affect your attack bonus.
I agree with blackbloodtroll. Rich parent is great for low levels or stingy DMs, but 900 gold is very easy to replace quickly. A perm +2 iniative, perm +1 AC in armor, +1 to any one save, and a slew of mroe options.
Easy way to stop him are will saves. If he specked for high physical stats his will saves are mostly like hit hard. DR will slow him.
Although a good confusion should cause him to wipe his party.
Nah, they have a 7 man team. That is more nuts in an AP than a minmaxed archer.
They are probably all 25 point buy too. With extra gold per encounter as well.
When you have more people in a party. Reduce the point buy. Up the CR per fight, but keep tge gold rewards tge same. So a lot less per person.
This guy is a ranger. And has favoured enemy goblin for an extra +2 or 4? I dont know rangers' progression too well :P
That bonus wont help once the enemy type changes to Giants :)
Reduced visibility. fog, darkness, thick forest, smoke. Lots of concealment.
Distance penalties to perception.
Smokesticks.
Cover: -4 shooting into melee, bad guy also gets +4 cover to AC. Also the more generic cover from walls, trees, etc
Difficult terrain: can't five-foot step. provokes AoO if he fires at an adjacent foe.
Pit traps. Nothing like falling into a hole full of pointy sticks. useful against most 4th level adventurers.
Nets. penalty to attack, hampers dex.
Other snipers. hide/shoot/hide at penalty. reduces chances of retaliation.
and of course, spells: obscuring mist, sanctuary, etc.
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@Wiggz Yes, I know, I play archer characters a lot. If you drop his hit with Deadly Aim, he's hitting for 1d8 +10! Meaning if you haven't raised the HP on the goblins, he most likely is one shotting them. Get them to swarm him. I know my ranger got swarmed by 3 goblins and even though he had a shield and sword to fall back with, he ended up flanked enough to almost die, lucky rolls on his withdraw and flee allowed him to have 1 HP left.
@Wiggz Yes, I know, I play archer characters a lot. If you drop his hit with Deadly Aim, he's hitting for 1d8 +10! Meaning if you haven't raised the HP on the goblins, he most likely is one shotting them. Get them to swarm him. I know my ranger got swarmed by 3 goblins and even though he had a shield and sword to fall back with, he ended up flanked enough to almost die, lucky rolls on his withdraw and flee allowed him to have 1 HP left.
hi guys,
i'm not trying to kill this pc lol... he's the former gm now playing with everyone else. for quite some time he has given us dirty looks about min/maxing and powergaming. now, on the other side he has built a ranged encounter killer with rich parents and favored son as traits(he did not allow traits in his games lol). he's a great player, but now he has taken over the party as party leader, and the other pcs are getting little or no shots in during encounters. granted they will not be fighting goblins forever, but the look on the other pc's faces as he barks out orders and rolls +12-13 to hit is priceless.it was a tough transition having him sit in a pc role without trying to rules-lawyer the new game...now I just want the other 6 pcs to have a chance to shine too. I also, ?(insert guilt), want to knock him down a peg.....not kill him or ruin his character.
If it is 6 PC's you will need to increase the number of monsters. At the lower levels he will hit often. Are you accounting for cover and firing into melee, and how did he get a +12 to hit at level 4. If his "to hit" is that high he most likely had to give up something to get it.
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I looked over those traits, past first level, Rich parents starts to wane. Yes, he might've started with a masterwork longbow, maybe even a Composite with strength modifier, but that affects damage only.
What are his stats? I built a fighter in Hero Lab and even giving him enough gold to buy a +1 Composite Longbow, could only get him to +12 tops. But that requires he not use the Deadly Aim feat, to up his damage.
If he is a ranger and has favored enemy as goblins, great, until you stop fighting goblins. Then the power drops down.
You run the monsters, have them attack him in a swarm. You should be increasing the CR of each encounter with 7 players, especially if they have more than a 15 point buy. (since the AP is setup for 15 pt buy and 4 players) I am playing Runelords right now and we have 7 players and 25 point buy. I know we'll steamroll the first encounters, unless the GM ups things. Double the goblins attacking. Give bosses a couple minions.
What is this archers build? AKA stats, feats and relevant items.Rich parents is a waste of the trait if your playing for more then a level 1 one shot. Which version of favored son is being used, the Ameikio one or the Belor one? Also that fact that he did not allow traits in his game is irrelevant to what he picked in your game. What are the rest of the players playing?
Rise of the Runelords? Easy, just max hitpoints on important fights, like a certain goblin.
