Yeah, I can see the grenade one being situational, but man, when that grenade needs to move, it can be a life saver or ender, depending. Also, I have heard complaints about the abilities to reduce or heal the damage abilities. But man, it sucks when the healer mystic gets dropped and you don't have another healer.
The affect line makes it slightly better, but as others said, you get better uses out of reactions at later levels and at second, I personally rather save my reaction to shift a grenade to a better location (either offensively or defensively) than gamble a -2 is enough to cause a enemy to miss especially since they could pass the save and cause me to waste a reaction. Or hell, yeah it costs resolve, but reducing damage of an ally takes is also really useful.
Personally, I think disrupt attack is a trap ability. Save for no effect and can only use it once per target.
Otherwise, yes, even the shift ability and a few of the other powers while weak and may allow saves for no effect, can be used on allies for interesting tactical options. After level one, Witchwarper really should be able to almost every turn to something besides shoot, unlike Mystic and Technomancer. And I agree that is really cool.
For none full base attack classes, weapon focus becomes +2 at later levels. You complained about not being able to hit with you injection guns, but then say you want the damage from longarms? You don't get both. The ability to hit for the buffs and debuffs is more important than damage, especially if your ability to hit with a longarm is less than the injection weapon. Plus, you are using the only class that can get full damage from weapon specialization with smallarms and eventually with all injection weapons, if you select that ability and its upgrade. Plus, smallarms has some strong damaging options available now, handcannon being the big one. Yeah, you don't get many shots with it, but d8s on a smallarm is nothing to ignore, especially with full weapon specialization bonus. The primary role of this class is buff/debuff, not damage. So focus on making that the best, with the ability to reliably hit when those are out as needed.
For the melee build, you complained about low ACs, but want the damage of two handed weapons. Well, either buff AC via using shields, cover, or raise Dex. Again, you don't get all of them easily. Most none primary melee classes, Soldier, Solarian, and Vanguard, struggle at early levels. Heck, those three do as well, which means you either figured work arounds or except that you will have to compromise. Low ACs for front line characters should never be the compromise though, especially with how the NPCs to hit bonus are calculated.
I see some of your issues with both these builds. Lack of weapon focus small arms on the range build is crital, plus at later levels you can get full damage with small arms with one of your class features if you choose it. By maxing out Dex/Str you lack points to raise other stats needed for secondary roles or help in Combat, AC via Dex for the Str build. Also, buy having a stat at 17 there is no real advantage through majority of the game than starting at 16, both go to 18 at level 5. You can use that odd stat and the points from the lowered Str/Dex for raising the none primary combat to help in either not getting hit, melee build, or raise Str/Con for the gun build. Even if you don't lower Dex or Str, look into weapon focus for the gun build and use a shield for the melee build, personally he needs the riot shield. I get wanting longarms, but this is probably the only class that I would not recommend picking up longarms on.
It is already a weak ability, between only using it once per target per 24hrs, they get a save for no effect. Honestly, I think I would rather see the penalty cut in half and there be no save but keep the once per 24hrs rider. The save is what makes it totally not a useful ability, they have other things that are cool that don't have, sucky complete overriding saves. The self buff Overlapping Forms, Surefooted, Push Grenade, and any of the three reduce damage abilities from level 2, even with the resolve cost are stronger. Hell clever uses of Shift Resistance (on allies) or Shifting Steps (again allies) creates plenty of tatical opportunities to help control the flow of battle, but different than how other classes do the same.
Honestly, like the casting stat. But felt of the new classes this class felt the least impressive. Mostly it was because so many of the powers have the combination of limited uses, short durations, can only be used once on a target per 24 hours with a saving throw for no effect. Also, to me, this class had the most wording issues on some of the powers. Sadly, the Technomancer has similar issue, with certain powers and abilities being significantly better than others.
I am excited to hear the class will have a more unique spell list, hopefully focusing on energy damage both single target and area effect, area crowded control via terain manipulation or creation effects, and single target charm and domination spells, with some illusion spells as well.
Granted, my group currently is not playing Starfinder, but Pathfinder 1E (we are pretty anti 2E) Mummy's Mask, so actual play testing will probably be a while.
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Giving it the mind-affecting descriptor would solve the issue. Otherwise as you said you get weird cases like mindless undead making Will Saves (and not against positive energy) or mindless constructs, who normally don't ever make Will Saves because they are immune to most things that need Will saves. Knowing these things, that was why I was so confused, calling out creatures felt redundant, because items/object don't make Will Saves normally and honestly rarely make Ref or Fort Saves, outside rare cases. But, this might be bleed over from 3.5/Pathfinder rules as well. Again, thanks for the clarification.
Overall, I like the classes and was happy to hear Witcherwarper, honestly like Warpwitch better, they will be getting a more unique spell list.
Disrupt Attack (Su)
PS, thanks Owen KC Stephens for taking the time to address questions and concerns.
GM OfAnything wrote:
I disagree, it is redundant. Items don't get will saves and most unintelligent creatures are immune to will save based effects.
Creature is vs. trap. A trap could make an attack roll, but wouldn't make a save against this - it would just take the penalty.
Using that argument, adding creature is unnecessary if it allows a save because traps do not get saves, outside of weird edge case spells. Either way, it should be worded better, plus you can only target something once per 24hrs, adding save or no penalty just makes this less useful, similar to all the Solarian abilities people do not like.
Also, along with that last sentiment, save or no penalty/effect and once per 24hrs on abilities really is something I dislike about Starfinder, probably one of my biggest complaints.
Hey, something to note, the ability says if the ability is coming from a creature. This wording needs to be clarified, right now it could be considered to mean any attack or only natural attacks/unarmed attacks. Currently, depending on how the GM interprets the ability you can get different answers. It also has different, for lack of better term, tiers depending on the answer here as well.
Disrupt Attack (Su)
N. Jolly wrote:
Awesome, that is what I figured, but wanted to be sure, thanks!!
Hey question on the Darkness Defender archetype regarding violent challenge and guardian challenge, does violent challenge replace or modify guardian challenge? I really like the archetype, probably better than the main Sentinel class, but this might change my mind if it replaces guardian challenge.
Sadly, between this and the Fighter, I'm getting a distinct impression 2e won't be a game for me...
Me too. With 16+ years of 3.X matterial and Starfinder I don't see much need for 2.0 in my life. Also, I'm honestly not impressed by either the Rogue (Unchained was way more useful) and the new Fighter just feels bad. Sorry, Paizo, 2.0 isn't wowing me. Sad to say, since I have been fallowing you guys back when you had Dungeon and Dragon Magazines. Hopefully, Starfinder won't get left behind in this new PF2.0 stuff.
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
As a note, the Friday blog will be all about this podcast, adding some clarifications and behind the screen spoilers!
Good, looking forward to this. But, please don't go to far down the D&D 4/5ed mentality. That is what led me to Pathfinder in the first place. Some of the proficiency ideas I completely can't stand.
1st Fix Fighter!! Why is it the worst martial class? If nothing else use the Soldier class from Starfinder as inspiration. Also, please use Unchained Rogue and Monks as what your new versions will be based on, please.
2) While I like the idea of simpler system, like what Starfinder has, please don't go to overly simple like 5ed.
3)Skills need help but I don't like the idea of Skills acting as your initiative, especially if they are as easy to cheese as they use to be.
4) I am happy to help playtest, feel that was what Starfinder needed to help fix some of the issues it has.
5) The proficiency idea I will have to see what it is. If it is like what Starfinder does, I won't mind, especially for weapon focus (and versatile focus) and weapon specialization (and versatile specialization).
Honestly, with having every AP since Kingmaker, I'm not sure how far into the new system I will go with you guys, but am willing to help debug the playtest to make it the best it can be.
Many have said what my complaints already, but the new site while looks nice, but is hell to navigate via phone. Links lead to dead ends, message board navigation sucks, and finding products is a pain. Others above have expressed this feed back more eloquently than myself. Hate to say it, but overall liked the old lay out way better.
Better than spending extra feats to get sniper weapons on a technomancer, use the spell hack to make a sniper weapon. Cost a spell slot, but no need to burn longarm proficiency to get to sniper weapons. Just stick with longarm feats and make a sniper rifle when needed or heavy weapon is we are wanting raw damage output.
The second AP has a Snipping setup. The bad guy has superior cover and hight advantage. Besides has help from another critter. Players have aid of multiple partial or full cover to keep it somewhat balanced. While this isn't the crazy ranges that the rifles can use, I consider this a sniper's ideal setup. Finding the sniper was actually really hard.
Yokshi will fit in Zoidberg's!
Yes, healing in combat is weak, but be very aware that there will be many times that hp getting hit will happen. So have plans for that, cause players get hit a lot in this game and gone are the days of rocket tag. Depending on spells selected Spell focus would be more valuable than weapon specialization. But yeah, Dex 16 Wis 16 makes a strong Mystic, and with that spread picking up longarms isn't a bad idea.
Most Blitz/Solarian builds I have seen are 1st lvl Soldiers rest Solarian. Really you should look at what your losing/delaying. The bonus for soldier are extra feat, free heavy armor, Str for Resolve, +4 to initiative and +10 ft for movement (this also means for charge attacks as well, so 40ft charge from stellar rush vs 30ft). But, you won't get stellar rush/plasma sheath until 3, weapon spec until 4th, one other revelation until 5th, and delaying blade damage upgrade until 7th along with next revelation. So, personally, I wouldn't mind this kind of build, but only if he is fine with doing a rebuild. I wouldn't personally take blitz after 2nd lvl at the latest, mostly due to the fact that he has more than likely already picked up heavy armor proficiency already.
Barbarossa Rotbart wrote:
I have seen this argument so many times I cringe. This is like the guy who plays an int 14 wizard. It can be fun if everyone else is playing similar stat characters. But in the same party you have a Cha 18 sorcerer, that wizard is going to feel kinda left out.
Only if you move. But, it returns before/at beginning of your next turn, so I move after I catch it (free action to catch it, if I recall correctly). Otherwise, if you move after throwing it, which would be odd to me (not counting forced to move), get called.
Yeah, good point for Operative melee weapons. As for 1st lvl melee options for everyone else. I disagree that there are only two. There are many times I have found from my 7+ games in Starfinder having a one-handed melee weapon extremely useful (for non-kasatha). Especially with how throwing weapons work in Starfinder, Str to hit and damage, it is better to buy and carry a returning starknife as your range weapon than a smallarm. So my biltz soldier carried said starknife and assault hammer, until I was able to upgrade to the longsword. Yeah, I could get better damage with 2 handed weapon, but versatility is also important.