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in Kingmaker, there is at least one npc who is involved with another npc of the same gender who has not told their father because he would not approve. There are closed minded/tradition fetishists in tha ap at least.Since there's at least three deities (Shelyn, Desna and Iomedae) in the Pathfinder 'verse that are trans-accepting and an Empyreal Lord (Arshea) that specifically blesses trans people, I cannot particularly imagine that the same prejudices that have dominated since Constantine's time in our world would hold true in Golarion.Cool...
Loving the history. Thank you Kitty.
Also, GO TRANS BATTALION(Coterie)!!
It's been a while since I read that AP, but I think it had more to do with Satinder being a Calistrian Priestess and not a suitable marriage prospect. But yes, I found Kingmaker bizarrely medieval in relation to the rest of Golarion.
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Allow me to state my thanks for the eloquence and civil discourse we have here in this thread. This is quite the spectrum of viewpoints vs going to the various websites where usually one part of the alphabet rainbow tends to dominate.
This is nice. <-Not very eloquent but sincerely heartfelt.
I've been sorely tempted to add to my two cents. Regarding the Military/FireFighter/EMS mindset, when the situation is dire and lives hang in the balance the thought process comes down to analytical calculations. Can this person do the job assigned? What must I do to accomplish my particular task? The downtime is when personalities reassert themselves. Quirks, idiosyncrasies and de-stressing opportunities start to play out. "Work hard, Play hard" is a cliche' but still rings true.
For me, underdressing while off-duty but still onboard/onbase was the only possible relief outlet. Did people know?* No. I, a trans person, was there though.
ReckNBall.
*caveat: One of my crewmates did find out after an impromptu ambush wrestling match.(see: play hard) Boy did he let go fast. I did appreciate his silence and the friendship changed after that.
Reading your posts, just wanted to say over the past few years grasping gay culture has been a real learning experience for me.
Specifically in regards to gay culture, other stuff I am still trying to grasp. Anyway, a friend came out to me one fine day as a match of Tekken finished, after hiding that side of him for a long time. My talks with him have been real learning experiences, and he is thrilled I stand up for his "kind" online (way too much homophobia in the games I play, and the racism, urgh).He was a uni student like me, and he has become a psychologist. He generally tries to help people, get involved with young gay men to help them through tough patches. So not only has he lived it, he has also studied it.
I really don't know what you're getting at here. If this had a point, I'm totally missing it.
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The problem I have with the term "transgender" is, to me, that is assumes a state of acceptance of gender identities firmly ensconced in western ideology, whereas in some cultures there are more than just two gender identities and this, again to me, implies that in ancient cultures what we are calling "transgendered" might actually have simply been another accepted gender identity or gender role. What we want to identify in our culture today as “transgender” may be to complex and divergent for us to put simple labels upon.
While I understand that viewpoint, in another sense it places a unique burden of proof on trans people. We accept more or less without question that people in ancient times were gay with the understanding that being same-sex attracted in many cultures and at many times meant something very different than it means in our culture today.
It's an actual, historical fact that transgender priests and priestesses existed in Sumer and Akkadia - the Kurgarra (FTM) and Galatur (MTF). There were the Semnatatoi of Hekate (MTF) in Greece, and the Gallae of the Magna Mater (MTF) in Rome. In places that did not Christianize under Constantine's rule, transgender identities remained present and widely accepted until European Imperialism displaced them in the 1600s-1800s.
Sorry, my Google-fu is failing me today; as far as the cult of Hekate goes, is that particularly at Lagina, or is there more evidence from Greece proper that I'm missing? Obviously I'll have to do some more reading myself, but I'd appreciate a hint if it's not too much trouble.
And the Akkadian material is fascinating - what do they call it again, the "head-overturning" ritual? As the surviving hymns remind us, Inanna is awesome. :)
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It's an actual, historical fact that transgender priests and priestesses existed in Sumer and Akkadia - the Kurgarra (FTM) and Galatur (MTF). There were the Semnatatoi of Hekate (MTF) in Greece, and the Gallae of the Magna Mater (MTF) in Rome. In places that did not Christianize under Constantine's rule, transgender identities remained present and widely accepted until European Imperialism displaced them in the 1600s-1800s.Sorry, my Google-fu is failing me today; as far as the cult of Hekate goes, is that particularly at Lagina, or is there more evidence from Greece proper that I'm missing? Obviously I'll have to do some more reading myself, but I'd appreciate a hint if it's not too much trouble.
And the Akkadian material is fascinating - what do they call it again, the "head-overturning" ritual? As the surviving hymns remind us, Inanna is awesome. :)
The bulk of my information on hand about Lady Hekate (which is considerable; it's something of a tradition of mine to try to find a new book about her at any Pagan festival I go to) says that the Semnatatoi were centered in Northwestern Thrace (mostly what would have been in modern Bulgaria).
I know less about Inanna than I'd like, but yes, she was a VERY powerful deity, and she herself had a lot of gender-nonconformity in her own attributes. She freely took on aspects that were associated with both male and female.
Thanks ever so much! I keep forgetting about Thrace. (Scurries off to add another note to her precarious stack of loose papers containing things to look into... I keep meaning to set some time aside to do some more research on ancient Hekate cult, but as always, there's so much to read and so little time!)
By the way, that sounds like a wonderful festival tradition. I tend to gravitate to used book shops wherever I travel, but I normally find myself prioritizing Loebs or OCTs that I do wonder if I'll ever get around to reading. Hmm. Maybe I should start a pagan bibliography thread, to avoid derailing the conversations here.
Are you denying trans visit clubs, hang out, have fun?
Does coterie not work for a group of trans knights, when coterie means "A small group of people with shared interests or tastes, esp. one that is exclusive of other people."It totally fits for what is being discussed, beware of playing pedantic word games when there are real issues to discuss.
You keep ignoring the context in which you yourself are using those words in your attempt to set up some association fallacy with stereotypical club scene people or as exclusionary clique. Perhaps you should endeavor to better choose your words so as not to bias other readers to your true intentions.
Military
Sorry, while you can try to say, look at our military now, there are trans there so there should be trans in Lastwall, it does not follow. Lastwall is not the military of the U.S.A or Australia, or Belgium or Thailand. The material for Lastwall knights has not mentioned the trans battalion or a trans hero. That is just how it is at present.So you're using an absence of evidence as your evidence for absence? What of the hundreds of women who posed as men and served in the U.S. Civil War? What of Joan of Arc? Chevalier d'Eon? Enrique Favez? Catherina Linck? Hua Mulan? James Barry? Jack Bee Garland? Epipole of Carystus? Jeanne de Clisson? How many names and how far back will it take to meet your criteria?
Should they be inserted in? Perhaps. Will it fit? I think it runs the risk of being a retroactive shoehorn, and I don't think it works with the grim knights in a simple lawful good vs evil existence of survival. As you've got to ask, do they even have the time or inclination to worry about their body not matching their mind? Is this a problem they even have? This modern obsession for a range of people (and by obsession I mean gender dysphoria and the fixation upon an abstract idea and feelings being more real than biology and primary sexual characteristics)...
Jeez, you just don't get my point.
The U.S military, the Navy Seals, this is not Lastwall. Nothing in this world has to be in Golarion. Porting things over may not fit. Lastwall has not been identified as a bastion for trans heroes... yet. :)
It's an actual, historical fact that transgender priests and priestesses existed in Sumer and Akkadia - the Kurgarra (FTM) and Galatur (MTF). There were the Semnatatoi of Hekate (MTF) in Greece, and the Gallae of the Magna Mater (MTF) in Rome. In places that did not Christianize under Constantine's rule, transgender identities remained present and widely accepted until European Imperialism displaced them in the 1600s-1800s.It sounds like a very modern confusion and set of issues to me (post anomie and disenchantment at the very least) for trans to appear in a setting in significant numbers, i.e. they are a thing, just like they are a thing in the present.You are factually, materially, historically, scientifically and offensively incorrect. I strongly recommend you take the time to do a reality check before making these kinds of pronouncements.
This is the appropriation of the past. Claiming the past was the same as now, and ignoring vast cultural differences. I'll put it this way, modern trans are not priestesses of Akkad. Pagan and pacific islander genders and identities are not the same thing as being trans in 21st century America. To claim so is cultural theft.
If you want to try and steal the cultural histories of other cultures and claim them as you own, under very new labels, well, you should really check your privilege in attempting such an act. You have good intentions, but the cultures of the third-sex are not all the same, or yours.
Now if paizo wants to create a vast and interconnected trans history in Golarion, they have a lot of work ahead of them. They might want to use a term other than trans, since while trans comes from Latin, the movement starts in the 1950s and takes off more in the 60s. With origins in the 50s that is why I am saying, a possible symbol of anomie and disenchantment, exacerbated by societal forces of uprootedness, or déraciné.
Allow me to state my thanks for the eloquence and civil discourse we have here in this thread. This is quite the spectrum of viewpoints vs going to the various websites where usually one part of the alphabet rainbow tends to dominate.
This is nice. <-Not very eloquent but sincerely heartfelt.
I've been sorely tempted to add to my two cents. Regarding the Military/FireFighter/EMS mindset, when the situation is dire and lives hang in the balance the thought process comes down to analytical calculations. Can this person do the job assigned? What must I do to accomplish my particular task? The downtime is when personalities reassert themselves. Quirks, idiosyncrasies and de-stressing opportunities start to play out. "Work hard, Play hard" is a cliche' but still rings true.
For me, underdressing while off-duty but still onboard/onbase was the only possible relief outlet. Did people know?* No. I, a trans person, was there though.ReckNBall.
*caveat: One of my crewmates did find out after an impromptu ambush wrestling match.(see: play hard) Boy did he let go fast. I did appreciate his silence and the friendship changed after that.
Yeah, this is a pretty good thread isn't it? A lot of passion, but mostly on the ball (can I say that?).
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Jeez, you just don't get my point.
The U.S military, the Navy Seals, this is not Lastwall. Nothing in this world has to be in Golarion. Porting things over may not fit. Lastwall has not been identified as a bastion for trans heroes... yet. :)
But if humans exist in Golarion, with what appears to be almost every other corresponding psychological and biological nuance, with all of the other passions, desires and concepts that we're so familiar with, it would seem silly to be upset about or protest the appearance of this particular shade.
As a matter of fact, I think it would be more conspicuous in its absence. Transgenderism has been a part of human history. Its inclusion among the population of the humans of Golarion doesn't strike me odd at all. It's only natural, if you'll pardon the phrase.
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This is the appropriation of the past. Claiming the past was the same as now, and ignoring vast cultural differences. I'll put it this way, modern trans are not priestesses of Akkad. Pagan and pacific islander genders and identities are not the same thing as being trans in 21st century America. To claim so is cultural theft.It's an actual, historical fact that transgender priests and priestesses existed in Sumer and Akkadia - the Kurgarra (FTM) and Galatur (MTF). There were the Semnatatoi of Hekate (MTF) in Greece, and the Gallae of the Magna Mater (MTF) in Rome. In places that did not Christianize under Constantine's rule, transgender identities remained present and widely accepted until European Imperialism displaced them in the 1600s-1800s.It sounds like a very modern confusion and set of issues to me (post anomie and disenchantment at the very least) for trans to appear in a setting in significant numbers, i.e. they are a thing, just like they are a thing in the present.You are factually, materially, historically, scientifically and offensively incorrect. I strongly recommend you take the time to do a reality check before making these kinds of pronouncements.
Um, no.
To claim that past gender variances are totally different from trans people now is creating a specific burden of proof which is ONLY placed against trans people, when modern culture freely borrows from analogous past structures without much caring about differences (ESPECIALLY modern gay and lesbian culture, which has aggressively appropriated gender-variant figures to enrich its own history at the expense of actually gender-variant people).
The argument that modern gender variances are wholly divorced from past gender variances is specifically prejudicial against trans people.
Stop that.
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This is the appropriation of the past. Claiming the past was the same as now, and ignoring vast cultural differences. I'll put it this way, modern trans are not priestesses of Akkad. Pagan and pacific islander genders and identities are not the same thing as being trans in 21st century America. To claim so is cultural theft.Wat.
You really need to make up your mind whether you are trying to argue that being transgendered is a wholly modern affectation and that transpeople had no significant historical presence, or whether they did have such a presence and therefore shouldn't be represented in your RPG material.
Neither argument has any sense to it, but going back and forth between them makes even less.
Unfortunately, the two are often closely linked. Julia Serano in Whipping Girl details a number of academic accounts, including several written by gay and lesbian authors, which acknowledge the existence of gender-variant people in non-Western cultures and use that acknowledgment as part of a rant against the use of Western medicine to similar ends.
As a thoughtful friend put it:
"The problem there is that they're speaking on behalf of people who they don't represent, and in merit of that they're trying to take ownership of the whole sector and dictate its values.
That will either a) fail with those people being mildly ridiculed or b) further fragment things.
Trying to use priestesses of Akkad is a long draw.
3.5 Loyalist - apart from obviously liking to argue, I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here.
I think your point is Well trans* people aren't explicitly stated, so therefore they aren't there;
While everyone else is essentially saying just because they aren't explicitly stated doesn't mean they are not there.
I'd turn your latest quote back on you, and suggest perhaps you might stop trying to take ownership of the whole sector?
That is absolutely not what I am trying to do. I am also not saying, hades should leave because he does not agree with me and my politics (we are actually not one and the same, but it doesn't bother me much).
My points are in my posts. I would ask you to read them; but it also seems a good time to ask you a few questions: do you think Lastwall knights should be trans, in minor (individual) or major (detachment) numbers? Do you think it would work with the material as currently presented?
Should paizo make a historical re-write of the setting on LGBT grounds? Thank you.
It is a reach, c'mon. Not the same cultural background, activities or even identity. Akkad is long before the 1950s, and the 1950s is prior to the diversification and late modern culture of transsexualism at present and in recent years. Akkad is also not in America, or the west. To try to take them as you and yours is attempting to speak on behalf of people you don't represent, and never did represent. 2230 to 2050 BCE and any people from that time, is not the same group as a segment from 2013 CE.
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3.5 Loyalist - for the record, I did read your posts... which is what made me confused about what point you were attempting to drive.
1) Should the Lastwall knights be trans*?
I'm assuming that you refer to the Knights of Ozem? - which is what I'll respond on. I went off and re-read their write up in Knights of Golarion and noted absolutely zero references to any sexual or gender orientation.
They do mention a fairly strict adherence to Iomedean worship - to which I referred to Faiths of Purity. Re-reading through that entry I also note a complete lack of reference to any sexual or gender orientation of their followers.
I think without any specific canon reference you can only fall back on the established values of the setting as a whole - which has been demonstrated to include multiple and varied people of LGBT persuasion. So... yeah, I wouldn't have any issues with some of the Knights of Ozem being whatever they like after they're done protecting Lastwall for the day.
2) Should paizo make a historical re-write of the setting on LGBT grounds?
They don't need to... as the LGBT people are already there and fully integrated into the societies as they exist. Nobody needs to re-write a thing.
As I said before, just because they aren't explicitly called out as present - it doesn't mean that they aren't there.
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Given that my understanding is that this thread is supposed to be primarily a social thread/safe space for the forum's LGBT members, I'm happy to help move this discussion to the Homosexuality in Golarion thread if people feel it's interfering with the main purpose of the thread.
Explicit: a. Fully and clearly expressed; leaving nothing implied.
If they are in, then they should explicitly be indicated. If they have not been put in, they are not in. This is world creation (and defining what is in the setting).
You should be agreeing with this, you want them in yeah?
Explicit: a. Fully and clearly expressed; leaving nothing implied.
If they are in, then they should explicitly be indicated. If they have not been put in, they are not in. This is world creation (and defining what is in the setting).
You should be agreeing with this, you want them in yeah?
When did they "explicitly" state that the sky in Golarion was blue? Or that straight people exist?
Ugh.
Yes, Jessica, I'm all for getting this conversation out of here.
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Explicit: a. Fully and clearly expressed; leaving nothing implied.
If they are in, then they should explicitly be indicated. If they have not been put in, they are not in. This is world creation (and defining what is in the setting).
You should be agreeing with this, you want them in yeah?
When did they "explicitly" state that the sky in Golarion was blue? Or that straight people exist?
Ugh.
Yes, Jessica, I'm all for getting this conversation out of here.
I am too, please.
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Now if paizo wants to create a vast and interconnected trans history in Golarion, they have a lot of work ahead of them. They might want to use a term other than trans, since while trans comes from Latin, the movement starts in the 1950s and takes off more in the 60s. With origins in the 50s that is why I am saying, a possible symbol of anomie and disenchantment, exacerbated by societal forces of uprootedness, or déraciné.
I'll say it again. The awareness of being transgender, even if one does not yet have a term for it, often hits early, either very early (like 3 or 4), or just before or as adolescence starts (11, 12, 13). A large number of trans people seem to fit into those two groups. What sort of disenchantment exacerbated by societal forces (or 1950s society) is a 4 year old feeling?
I think you're conflating a couple of things here. There are, on the one hand, contemporary social and political movements (plural) centered around the transgender condition. On the other hand, there is the condition itself.
How we talk about transgender people or what it means to be transgender, sure that might change (and different pre-modern instances of gender variance may or may not align with that, I'm not well-versed enough in them to say for certain - seems like an avenue worth exploring at the very least).
But the actual condition itself probably does not and has not changed, since (if recent studies are correct) it seems tied to actual, physical biological conditions within transgender individuals, particularly within the brain, that seem to be present by the time one emerges from the womb.
If that is the case, the condition of being transgender most likely precedes Christine Jorgensen (I'm assuming that's why you're choosing the 50s), or Magnus Hirschfeld (who around 1910 coined the term "transvestite," which he used in a broader sense than we use it today, closer to how we now use the term "transgender"). And if that's the case, and the condition extends back through human history, how is it out of place in Golarion?
Put it another way. What I've experienced and continue to experience as a transgender individual is not part of a movement. However, those movements that do exist have helped to create a space within our society where I am able to exist safely (for which I am grateful). I don't think what I've experienced is a response to any sort of disenchantment, anomie, uprootedness. If I was born 100 or 1000 or more years ago, under the same physical conditions, I'd bet I'd have had the same experience. Sure, I'd probably use different terms, take different approaches to it, but I'd still be trans (even if I didn't call it that).
Put it yet another way. Prior to becoming aware of my own condition (around 11 or 12), I was, generally speaking content and not disenchanted, drifting through anomie or whatever. My experience was not what you're describing. My experience was certainly not a "symbol" of what you're describing.
A suggestion: If I understand some of your posts correctly, you seem to feel you have benefited, in terms of your understanding, from your experiences with actual gay and lesbian people. Do I have that right? (Apologies if not.) Perhaps you should hold off on your pronouncements about trans people until after you have gotten to know us, maybe listened to us, in person.
No problems here with excising that thread of discussion.
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Ok -- further discussion of trans characters in Golarion should go in the Homosexuality in Golarion thread.
If you'd like to continue the discussion, please be a courteous community member and do it there, because I'd prefer not to delete posts attempting to continue it here. (Unfortunately, we can't separate out and move individual posts, so I can't take the previous ones from this thread over there, but going forward, please do any discussion of this subject in the thread linked above.) Thanks! :-)
Jessica,
Me too. It really does fit better over there.
Edit: Ninja'd by 20 seconds.
Ok -- further discussion of trans characters in Golarion should go in the Homosexuality in Golarion thread.
If you'd like to continue the discussion, please be a courteous community member and do it there, because I'd prefer not to delete posts attempting to continue it here. (Unfortunately, we can't separate out and move individual posts, so I can't take the previous ones from this thread over there, but going forward, please do any discussion of this subject in the thread linked above.) Thanks! :-)
Roger Roger.
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Given that my understanding is that this thread is supposed to be primarily a social thread/safe space for the forum's LGBT members, I'm happy to help move this discussion to the Homosexuality in Golarion thread if people feel it's interfering with the main purpose of the thread.
I'd honestly prefer it to be forked into its own thread since the Homosexuality in Golarion thread has also been really nice(for the most part...or at least it eventually got there).
Then again, that would yet another thread you folks would have to keep an eye one...
edit-Late to the party on that matter...
Given that my understanding is that this thread is supposed to be primarily a social thread/safe space for the forum's LGBT members, I'm happy to help move this discussion to the Homosexuality in Golarion thread if people feel it's interfering with the main purpose of the thread.There are words for people who go into an LGBT safe space in order to tell LGBT folks that they are wrong for being who they are, or to make fun of LGBT issues. If this gentleman is escorted out and politely discouraged from doing it again, then we won't have to use them.
Hey I am just here to have a discussion, and Hades was being discussed before I got here. It feels like it has been fruitful, with a lot of back and forth.
I am not sure what you mean by "escorted out". Am I to be kicked out for discussion and some disagreement? Also don't forget I have agreed on some points, and L,G and B character are in my games. I am not the enemy.
On such words, if I understand you correctly, that would be a breach of the rules.
Also, need to finish watching Chevalier D'eon...
Now that was a pretty cool anime (fencer here).
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3.5 Loyalist, I posted my last couple of responses to you over in the Homosexuality in Golarion thread. (Though if you're tired of arguing too, and don't feel like responding, I'm okay with that.)
Edit to add: Ah, forget it. Enough arguing for one day (or two).
So if anyone wants a great book that really seems to get what the family of a transgender person goes through, I highly recommend "Luna" by Julie Ann Peters. It actually opened my eyes a little on some of the things I put my own little sister through.
Thanks. Anyone else have any other recommendations, apart from the usual (Jennifer Finney Boylan, etc.)?