The LGBT Gamer Community Thread.


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Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Agreed on the liquid liner thing. The best thing I've ever found though is the Too Faced (which is my favorite eye makeup brand hands down) Three Way Lash Lining Tool. Gets a great fine line on your eye, or a broader line if that's what you want. I also highly recommend their Romantic Eye and Natural Eye palettes, which will go a long way to numbers 3 and 4 on your list, as they come with three looks each (a very simple day look, a slightly more exotic classic look, and a fantastically vibrant, flamboyant fashion look) and each comes with a card showing you how to achieve the look. I get so many compliments on my eyes with those palettes, it makes me feel good.


I've been using Boots. We sell their stuff at work and I've gotten to know the reps pretty well. The problem is that I can't sit in the aisle while they teach me and my time off doesn't generally line up with theirs.

Someone bought me one of the ELF palette books and I just couldn't figure it out at all. After about an hour of pure frustration I put it away and never looked at it again. I just can't seem to get things to line up the way they show it.

I can see how it's supposed to turn out. I can see the pattern. I can't get it to look like that on me though. I just started trying to apply makeup when I was 38. From what I've been told, that's about 25 years behind schedule. It's really hard.


May I ask that any advice on which makeup to use also come with advice on the best way to remove it also? Last year a friend used the liquid eyeliner to draw spider webs on my eyes for my costume but no one told me how to remove it. It doesn't come off with regular eye makeup remover or soap and water. I scrubbed my face red for about 30 minutes before I just gave up and went to bed. I got most of it off but not all. I scratched the rest off in the morning. The next day, everyone asked me why I didn't use Vaseline. It's because I didn't know that was how to remove it. So please let me in on the whole process, beginning to end. Thanks.


Pretty much everything comes off with cold cream. Vaseline can work too. Or, if you're really desperate, you can use olive oil, canola oil, etc. The key is that some makeup, generally labeled waterproof, is only oil soluble. So you have to remove it with some form of oil. Depending on your brand of eye makeup remover it may not be designed to remove waterproof makeup.


That's the kind of information I need to know! And knowing is half the battle!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The best thing ever for eye makeup removal? Coochy brand Shaving Cream. That stuff is great for EVERYTHING. The best shaving cream you will ever buy, great eye makeup remover (that smells fantastic, currently we have a cake frosting scented one at home), and a great hair conditioner to boot.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:


I'm a strange person in that I'm open about my beliefs and opinions but I don't open up easily about myself as a person so that I don't get hurt personally.

That's not strange, Bob; that's almost everybody. :)


I've heard of that. I'll look into it. Thanks.

Project Manager

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Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Alice Margatroid, if I didn't have to put on as much makeup to cover my masculine features I'd be better off.

I don't know your level of makeup expertise, so forgive me if any of this comes across as talking down to you. And I haven't ever done makeup on a man, so I'll admit to ignorance about how makeup works on male skin (or, really, any skin but mine). (Disclaimer: my usual makeup is Burt's Bees lip balm so my lips don't dry out, and eyeliner/mascara because my lashes are pale -- and if I think my skin might get shiny, mineral veil powder -- so I'm kinda lazy, but I do do more for special occasions and I think I'm reasonably competent at it.)

But as far as the having to wear a lot of makeup to cover up your features because you feel they're too masculine, if you're doing the right sort of skin care regimen, you may be able to focus less on covering and more on sculpting. Heavy makeup doesn't necessarily do much to actually *change* the way your features look (it covers blemishes, etc. but that's different from making your features look more delicate). Doing makeup well is a lot easier if you're not starting by putting on a bunch just to cover up uneven skin tone (you can only layer on so much before it just gets messy and fake-looking, you know?). Good makeup is as much about drawing the eye where you want it as about covering things up.

So, make sure you're exfoliating and toning. And, especially if your skin is rougher/coarser, argan oil does wonders to both moisturize and soften it, as well as to even out the tone. Don't touch your face any more than necessary during the day -- bacteria from your hands can cause breakouts.

To do some sculpting, use different color creams or powders to highlight your bone structure, de-emphasize things you want minimized, etc. There's a good sort of diagram about where to go light vs. dark here: http://www.fashionavecpassion.com/sculpt-your-face-without-a-scalpel/ I like doing powder because it's more subtle and there's room for more of a margin of error, but if you need more intense sculpting, cream might be better for you.

As far as eye makeup, I use Stila eyeliner (the tip is nice to work with and allows you to be precise). It's waterproof, but I've found it comes off easily with eye makeup remover, and 90% of it will come off with just soap and water.

For special occasions when I do eyeshadow and stuff, I've noticed that a primer does wonders for getting eye color to go on smoothly and stay on, not smear, etc.


I like kohl. Its super sexy to me and some trans folk I know swear by it.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Oh thanks Jessica, I forgot to mention primer! Primer is a must!

Liberty's Edge

These recent posts have been simultaneously illuminating and yet baffling.

Silver Crusade

Jessica Price wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Alice Margatroid, if I didn't have to put on as much makeup to cover my masculine features I'd be better off.
I don't know your level of makeup expertise, so forgive me if any of this comes across as talking down to you. And I haven't ever done makeup on a man, so I'll admit to ignorance about how makeup works on male skin (or, really, any skin but mine). (Disclaimer: my usual makeup is Burt's Bees lip balm so my lips don't dry out, and eyeliner/mascara because my lashes are pale -- and if I think my skin might get shiny, mineral veil powder -- so I'm kinda lazy, but I do do more for special occasions and I think I'm reasonably competent at it.

You're wearing a lot of makeup in your picture.

Paizo Employee Editor

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Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Judy, I plan on being at the Raygun Lounge this Friday. I finally got my personal time to line up with Ladies Night. Maybe I'll see you there.

Ack, I actually won't be at Ladies Night this time! But have a great time, and say hi to the organizer, Ashley, for me! (Will be bribing an event-planner friend with drinks to teach us how to negotiate with unreasonable caterers. -_-)

Side note: I use the fact that I wear glasses to give myself a get-out-of-eye-makeup-free card. After years of contacts, I killed my fear of things near my eyes, but I never learned to do makeup, so I'm nervous when I apply it, and when I'm nervous, my hands shake... and THAT's a recipe for a clown-faced train wreck right there.

I do hope to someday exceed my current ability level (which caps out at tinted chapstick), because it seems like a handy skill on occasion, but I don't think that'd change my daily regimen, which is much closer to Alice's approach. ;-)

Project Manager

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Alice Margatroid, if I didn't have to put on as much makeup to cover my masculine features I'd be better off.
I don't know your level of makeup expertise, so forgive me if any of this comes across as talking down to you. And I haven't ever done makeup on a man, so I'll admit to ignorance about how makeup works on male skin (or, really, any skin but mine). (Disclaimer: my usual makeup is Burt's Bees lip balm so my lips don't dry out, and eyeliner/mascara because my lashes are pale -- and if I think my skin might get shiny, mineral veil powder -- so I'm kinda lazy, but I do do more for special occasions and I think I'm reasonably competent at it.
You're wearing a lot of makeup in your picture.

My avatar? You ... know that's not really relevant to a discussion of actual makeup techniques, right?


This is going to sound harsh, I hope I can be forgiven.

I kind of wish women did not wear make up. When a woman wears make up, in my eyes, she is simply making an effort to pretend she is something she is not. She is putting on an image that she has been forced to believe our culture demands of her (and it does, so it is not as if I am saying she should rebel against her inclinations).

So, Bob, in my opinion, stop trying to wear make up that you think you need to wear so that you will look like something you are not. You are what you are, a beautiful and interesting person. The image of what you want to be does not have to be defined by others. The image of what you want to be can, and ultimate is, what you want it to be and it is much easier to change something we can control (like what we want) than it is to change something we cannot control (how other's look at us).

Project Manager

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Terquem wrote:

This is going to sound harsh, I hope I can be forgiven.

I kind of wish women did not wear make up. When a woman wears make up, in my eyes, she is simply making an effort to pretend she is something she is not. She is putting on an image that she has been forced to believe our culture demands of her (and it does, so it is not as if I am saying she should rebel against her inclinations).

I suppose, if we don't like our hair color, too bad, just stick with what we were born with, right? I suppose we shouldn't dress up, either. Clothing is often designed to emphasize or deemphasize parts of the body, and that's cheating, too, right?

And if I want people to notice my eyes, because I like them and think they're a cool color and want people to notice it, it's morally wrong, in your opinion, to wear mascara or some other cosmetic that will draw attention to them?

Makeup, like clothing, is a form of self-expression. I don't wear makeup because I believe my culture is demanding it of me. I do it because sometimes I want to emphasize certain parts of my face. When I dress up and do more elaborate eye makeup, I do it for the same reason I wear jewelry or fancy clothes: because I'm dressing up and like ornamenting myself. And when I used to color my hair, I did it because I liked the color and wanted it.

If you think that's dishonest, well, you can think whatever you like. But as far as I'm concerned, my appearance is mine. Mine to alter, mine to play with, mine to express, and how I choose to do that is more who I am than the physical features I was born with, because it is an expression of myself.

Biology isn't destiny.


Jessica Price wrote:
Terquem wrote:

This is going to sound harsh, I hope I can be forgiven.

I kind of wish women did not wear make up. When a woman wears make up, in my eyes, she is simply making an effort to pretend she is something she is not. She is putting on an image that she has been forced to believe our culture demands of her (and it does, so it is not as if I am saying she should rebel against her inclinations).

I suppose, if we don't like our hair color, too bad, just stick with what we were born with, right? I suppose we shouldn't dress up, either. Clothing is often designed to emphasize or deemphasize parts of the body, and that's cheating, too, right?

And if I want people to notice my eyes, because I like them and think they're a cool color and want people to notice it, it's morally wrong, in your opinion, to wear mascara or some other cosmetic that will draw attention to them?

Makeup, like clothing, is a form of self-expression. I don't wear makeup because I believe my culture is demanding it of me. I do it because sometimes I want to emphasize certain parts of my face. When I dress up and do more elaborate eye makeup, I do it for the same reason I wear jewelry or fancy clothes: because I'm dressing up and like ornamenting myself. And when I used to color my hair, I did it because I liked the color and wanted it.

If you think that's dishonest, well, you can think whatever you like. But as far as I'm concerned, my appearance is mine. Mine to alter, mine to play with, mine to express, and how I choose to do that is more who I am than the physical features I was born with, because it is an expression of myself.

Biology isn't destiny.

also terequem, I shave regularly. Is this also somehow wrong? Cuz I can't deal with all this facial hair.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Never cut your hair or beard either...


Cori Marie wrote:
Never cut your hair or beard either...

but... in order for my black manliness to work, I need to be bald and have a chin patch! I can't do the Fred Williamson fro and stache, I'd look ridiculously outdated!!


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Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

I really wish the 'fro and 'stache combo would make a comeback among black men. Such a cooler look than what's in right now.

The Exchange

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As a professional face painter (not makeup artist), I get so many smiles from kids and adults allowing an expression of their inner self (or closeted allegiance) to blossom on the outside. Whether it is butterflies, tigers or a unicorn, skulls, zombies or some other monstrosity; it is all about catching eyes and the ego boost of being {I]Ooooooh'd[/I] and AAaaaaaaah'd over.

Feminine makeovers emphasize the bone structure differently. Us manly men have (typically not always) a pronounced eyebrow ridge, larger noses, jawlines yadda yadda yadda. Throwing on a dress without makeup just makes us manly men look like, well, a man in a dress.

When Bob gets to the point of presenting himself well enough to get addressed as a "Ma'am", we will hear about it. We will cheer with her. Doesn't matter if he never passes as female, as much as he presented himself well enough to be accepted. Then she will blossom.

My two cents of experience.


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

*said the blond and blue-eyed Scandinavian*[/sarcasm]

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Ugh. I am so very annoyed and aggravated right now. Yesterday, I received a call from my lawyer's office telling me that I could pick up my check from the opposing counsel's office. Shortly after that I got another call that we still needed one more piece of paperwork signed before I could. I printed it, signed it, scanned it, and emailed it back in a matter of minutes. Got a call today telling me that I had to wait for the EEOC to finish a press release that should have been done a week ago before I can get my check, and may not be able to until Monday now :( For eff's sake I just want this over. :(


Freehold DM wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Never cut your hair or beard either...
but... in order for my black manliness to work, I need to be bald and have a chin patch! I can't do the Fred Williamson fro and stache, I'd look ridiculously outdated!!

That's just what society wants you to think.


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You are all, in my opinion, taking what I said to extremes in order to show you opposition to my opinion, and that's okay.

What we do to our bodies we do for many reasons, some of those reasons include hygiene, others are necessary because of social constraints and norms.

You say you color your hair because you do not like the natural color, or that you put makeup on your eyes because you think you have eyes that are more attractive with makeup. All I am trying to say here is that I wonder why you are unhappy with your natural hair color, or why is it important, to you, that you have attractive eyes. And I do not ask these questions because I think they have no reasonable answers, not at all, our culture and societies expectations are what they are, and most of us adhere to these expectations, and there is nothing in what I said that implied I think that that is morally wrong. I do not think it is morally wrong. Please do not put words in my mouth.

But there are people who reject these cultural norms, monks, nuns, and others who decide that how they appear is not important. Some do it for deeply religious reasons, others out of fear of society.

I was only trying to say, that it is easier for any of us to control what we want than it is to control how others will look at us, and if Bob feels that she must look a particular way to be happy and cannot see any alternative to that, then she will find it in herself to rise to that challenge, I truely believe she will. All I am saying is that that is not the only option.


Kajehase wrote:
I really wish the 'fro and 'stache combo would make a comeback among black men. Such a cooler look than what's in right now.

lets see YOU maintain one ofthose things. They went out of style because theywere just too difficult to manage-a real drain on time. Although I do miss combing my face...I loved the Cleveland show episode where they showed his comically large moustache and beard grooming set complete with ruler. .. made me think of my dad back in the day.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I don't put makeup on to make my eyes attractive. I love my eyes. I put makeup on them to DRAW the eye to them, to make people notice how pretty they are. Do I get compliments on my eyes when I don't put on makeup? Yes. Do I get them in surplus when I do? Even more so. I don't use makeup to cover up my own beauty, but to accentuate it.


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Terquem wrote:

You are all, in my opinion, taking what I said to extremes in order to show you opposition to my opinion, and that's okay.

What we do to our bodies we do for many reasons, some of those reasons include hygiene, others are necessary because of social constraints and norms.

You say you color your hair because you do not like the natural color, or that you put makeup on your eyes because you think you have eyes that are more attractive with makeup. All I am trying to say here is that I wonder why you are unhappy with your natural hair color, or why is it important, to you, that you have attractive eyes. And I do not ask these questions because I think they have no reasonable answers, not at all, our culture and societies expectations are what they are, and most of us adhere to these expectations, and there is nothing in what I said that implied I think that that is morally wrong. I do not think it is morally wrong. Please do not put words in my mouth.

But there are people who reject these cultural norms, monks, nuns, and others who decide that how they appear is not important. Some do it for deeply religious reasons, others out of fear of society.

I was only trying to say, that it is easier for any of us to control what we want than it is to control how others will look at us, and if Bob feels that she must look a particular way to be happy and cannot see any alternative to that, then she will find it in herself to rise to that challenge, I truely believe she will. All I am saying is that that is not the only option.

I understand what you're trying to say, but as others, particularly Jessica have pointed out, our appearance is our own choice. And it's not necessarily a matter of being a dupe, somehow, of societal pressures, of being forced by society, or of "pretending to be something we're not."

(I also think you might want to look for other examples. Monks and nuns often have some specific rules about how they present themselves. They create their own norms, which are themselves part of the larger culture within which they find themselves.)

Some people I know wear makeup. Some wear a lot. Some a little. Some, none at all. Some like to change it up. It's a matter of choice. There are elements of self-expression as well as play involved, as both Jessica and RecknBall have pointed out.

Is the menu of possible choices influenced by social custom? Sure. Doesn't mean it needs to be rejected out of hand, or that the choices you settle upon are out of your control.

Besides, Bob's actually pushing against social pressure in this case, or at least that's my understanding - the pressure that's kept her (apologies, Bob, if that's not the pronoun you prefer) from having a chance to experiment with makeup in the past, become adept at it, and have fun with it, and look the way she chooses to and which she feels best expresses herself. (Again, apologies, Bob, if I'm putting words in your mouth.)

And if Bob has as a goal passing as female, makeup can be useful in that regard, if that's the route she chooses to go.

I think it's awesome that people have been offering Bob some tips here, and I think it's awesome that Bob feels comfortable enough to ask.

Here's something to think about. I happen to like the color of my hair. It's one of the few physical features that I'm happy with. (Though apart from the testosterone-influenced stuff - stubble, the shape of the brow, etc., there's nothing I'm unhappy with.)

I also like black hair, and wonder how I'd look with it. I think it might work nicely with the rest of my appearance. But there's no societal pressure for black hair. So, I'm not unhappy with my hair, there's no pressure to try a different color, but I might try changing the color at some point.

Another example. I work with someone who changes her hair color every so often. For a while, it was bright purple. (It looked great.)

There doesn't seem to be room for either of these things in the model you're presenting.

I get that you're well-intentioned in the advice you're offering, but I think you're not seeing the entire picture.

Project Manager

Cori Marie wrote:
I don't put makeup on to make my eyes attractive. I love my eyes. I put makeup on them to DRAW the eye to them, to make people notice how pretty they are. Do I get compliments on my eyes when I don't put on makeup? Yes. Do I get them in surplus when I do? Even more so. I don't use makeup to cover up my own beauty, but to accentuate it.

This.

Paizo Employee Editor

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KSF wrote:
Lots of good points.

+1

Playing with your appearance can be just that—play. I've been slowly amassing white hairs since I turned 18, and I finally have enough that I was able to do something fun with them: 50-50 mix of conditioner and lurid hair dye, and all of the white hairs turn into streaks of bright color. Easy to maintain, washes out fast if necessary, and avoids the damage that bleaching would cause (the rest of my hair's pretty dark, so bleaching would otherwise be needful to make dye show up).

I don't mind my white hairs—many were hard-won during Gen Con crunches! I just like having an opportunity to experiment. And as a spinner, fiber is fiber to me: a playground for color.


Fortunately, I take no offense at being misunderstood, and am fully aware that the fault lies in my inability to make a clear point, thank you.


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Freehold DM wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Never cut your hair or beard either...
but... in order for my black manliness to work, I need to be bald and have a chin patch! I can't do the Fred Williamson fro and stache, I'd look ridiculously outdated!!

Speaking about ridiculously outdated, I grew a handlebar moustache a couple of years ago (which wasn't too hard to maintain - no Afro, though - wrong genes :) ) for that sought-after Lemmy stroke General Gordon look.

And doesn't that conjure up a lovely image...

Project Manager

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The problem, Terquem, is that in saying what I believe you're trying to say -- which is that no one should feel forced to wear makeup to conform to societal expectations for what women are supposed to look like (which I think we can all agree with) -- you're assuming a lot of facts not in evidence about why women wear makeup, and what we get out of it, and the way you chose to phrase your opposition (women are "pretend[ing they are] something [they are] not") implies dishonesty. (Perhaps you don't believe dishonesty is morally wrong, in which case sorry, I did make an assumption there.) It also sounds like you're laying down prescriptive behavior: women shouldn't wear makeup.

Quote:
But there are people who reject these cultural norms, monks, nuns, and others who decide that how they appear is not important. Some do it for deeply religious reasons, others out of fear of society.

I'm unclear as to where anyone's said that that's not okay. But it's also not okay to tell everyone that they should be dressing like monks or nuns, or they're doing something wrong.

I'm saying how we choose to present ourselves, whether it's eschewing makeup and ornamentation, or embracing it, is a valid choice, and that how we choose to present ourselves says a lot more about who we are than physical features our DNA happened to combine to provide to us.

I can't speak to what Bob wants, and am not going to try. I can, however, say that for a lot of people, looking traditionally feminine is something they enjoy doing at least some of the time. And it's not because they feel they're being forced to -- it's because it's an aesthetic they like and they enjoy exercising the talent to be good at it, much as some people enjoy doing a retro look, etc.


Ms Price
I believe I was clear when I said, I kind of wish women did not wear makeup*. When a woman wears makeup,in my eyes, she is simply making an effort to pretend she is something she is not.

I would prefer that women did not wear makeup, does not imply, I feel, that I hold the position that women should not wear makeup.

And, I cannot engage in a discussion of the moral implications of dishonesty, other than to say that "pretending" to be something you are not, is in my opinion, as an act in and of itself, not morally wrong, and there must be motivation to deceive for the purpose of causing harm for any kind of act of "pretending" or deceit to, in my opinion, be morally wrong.

It is too weighty a subject for me to talk about with any confidence, and I will only make my case less clear by trying, thank you.

Your position is not one I disagree with, not in the least part. I feel, like you, strongly, that it is every person’s choice to present themselves as they desire. I will have nothing further to say on this subject and I am thankful for your kindness and patience with my limited abilities to communicate my thoughts.

*My mistake in not knowing that makeup is in fact one word


Freehold DM wrote:
Kajehase wrote:
I really wish the 'fro and 'stache combo would make a comeback among black men. Such a cooler look than what's in right now.
lets see YOU maintain one ofthose things. They went out of style because theywere just too difficult to manage-a real drain on time. Although I do miss combing my face...I loved the Cleveland show episode where they showed his comically large moustache and beard grooming set complete with ruler. .. made me think of my dad back in the day.

I feel you. I remember when I had my 'fro. That thing took forever to comb. I like my dreads now a lot more, although I know I'll have to cut them soon. Corporate America and all that crap.


Jessica Price wrote:

The problem, Terquem, is that in saying what I believe you're trying to say -- which is that no one should feel forced to wear makeup to conform to societal expectations for what women are supposed to look like (which I think we can all agree with) -- you're assuming a lot of facts not in evidence about why women wear makeup, and what we get out of it, and the way you chose to phrase your opposition (women are "pretend[ing they are] something [they are] not") implies dishonesty. (Perhaps you don't believe dishonesty is morally wrong, in which case sorry, I did make an assumption there.) It also sounds like you're laying down prescriptive behavior: women shouldn't wear makeup.

I think you might be dismissing the societal pressure too lightly. Given how strong it obviously was only a couple generations back, I'd want to see some strong evidence that it isn't still a major factor. Even if it's in the subtle way of convincing women that they want to do it, rather than shunning those who don't.

Definitely less than it was even a couple decades ago, which is good.


thejeff wrote:

I think you might be dismissing the societal pressure too lightly. Given how strong it obviously was only a couple generations back, I'd want to see some strong evidence that it isn't still a major factor. Even if it's in the subtle way of convincing women that they want to do it, rather than shunning those who don't.

Definitely less than it was even a couple decades ago, which is good.

I'm not sure anyone would want to dismiss the existence of societal pressure. Rather, the question is whether or not its reach is all-consuming (or whatever the term would be). We exist within a larger cultural matrix, but we do so with agency.

Silver Crusade

Jessica Price wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Alice Margatroid, if I didn't have to put on as much makeup to cover my masculine features I'd be better off.
I don't know your level of makeup expertise, so forgive me if any of this comes across as talking down to you. And I haven't ever done makeup on a man, so I'll admit to ignorance about how makeup works on male skin (or, really, any skin but mine). (Disclaimer: my usual makeup is Burt's Bees lip balm so my lips don't dry out, and eyeliner/mascara because my lashes are pale -- and if I think my skin might get shiny, mineral veil powder -- so I'm kinda lazy, but I do do more for special occasions and I think I'm reasonably competent at it.
You're wearing a lot of makeup in your picture.
My avatar? You ... know that's not really relevant to a discussion of actual makeup techniques, right?

What's an avatar?

Do you mean that photo of you in the top left corner of your posts?

Project Manager

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Alice Margatroid, if I didn't have to put on as much makeup to cover my masculine features I'd be better off.
I don't know your level of makeup expertise, so forgive me if any of this comes across as talking down to you. And I haven't ever done makeup on a man, so I'll admit to ignorance about how makeup works on male skin (or, really, any skin but mine). (Disclaimer: my usual makeup is Burt's Bees lip balm so my lips don't dry out, and eyeliner/mascara because my lashes are pale -- and if I think my skin might get shiny, mineral veil powder -- so I'm kinda lazy, but I do do more for special occasions and I think I'm reasonably competent at it.
You're wearing a lot of makeup in your picture.
My avatar? You ... know that's not really relevant to a discussion of actual makeup techniques, right?

What's an avatar?

Do you mean that photo of you in the top left corner of your posts?

An avatar is, yes, the image in the top left corner of our posts. You realize that's a painting of a character in one of our books, not a photo of me, right? I'm actually a bit too lawful to be an azata.


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Terquem wrote:

This is going to sound harsh, I hope I can be forgiven.

I kind of wish women did not wear make up. When a woman wears make up, in my eyes, she is simply making an effort to pretend she is something she is not. She is putting on an image that she has been forced to believe our culture demands of her (and it does, so it is not as if I am saying she should rebel against her inclinations).

So, Bob, in my opinion, stop trying to wear make up that you think you need to wear so that you will look like something you are not. You are what you are, a beautiful and interesting person. The image of what you want to be does not have to be defined by others. The image of what you want to be can, and ultimate is, what you want it to be and it is much easier to change something we can control (like what we want) than it is to change something we cannot control (how other's look at us).

You're forgiven. I do need to say that I'm trying to be presentable as a woman though and not as a guy in a dress. I know that I am a guy in a dress but I really want to be presentable as a woman. I'm not really worried about passing as a woman. I don't think I can do that simply because of my voice but I can at least make the attempt to look more womanly. It's one of the things I enjoy. It also will help me feel more comfortable as I'm walking around in public. I may be in Seattle but that doesn't mean that it's completely without it's homophobic/transphobic jerks. If I can avoid the majority of them I can have a peaceful night and enjoy gaming. Besides, sometimes a guy just wants to feel pretty!

Shadow Lodge

Freehold DM wrote:
I shave regularly. Is this also somehow wrong? Cuz I can't deal with all this facial hair.

You are an embarrassment to dwarves everywhere.

Liberty's Edge Digital Products Assistant

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Jessica Price wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Alice Margatroid, if I didn't have to put on as much makeup to cover my masculine features I'd be better off.
To do some sculpting, use different color creams or powders to highlight your bone structure, de-emphasize things you want minimized, etc. There's a good sort of diagram about where to go light vs. dark here: http://www.fashionavecpassion.com/sculpt-your-face-without-a-scalpel/ I like doing powder because it's more subtle and there's room for...

I'm gonna stay away from the "why wear makeup" argument wherein a guy is lecturing several women about their experience, but I want to re-emphasize Jessica's point about sculpting your face rather than trying to cover it up and start from scratch. I'm a large, strong woman of Scottish decent, so I have a wide face and a fairly square jaw. But with just a little bit of blush around my jawline to soften it I actually think I'm very pretty. Some days it's all I wear (though I like wearing some powder to protect my skin and doing my eyes to varying degrees depending on how asleep I am before my coffee), and very rarely do I make small children cry or run in fear.


So let me shed some confusion on myself. I am a bisexual guy who identifies as male. I enjoy dressing as a woman but I can't seem to get the makeup right because I don't understand skin tones or how to do my eyes. When I do dress as a woman, I go by Cindy. I haven't had to deal with the confusion of needing to use the bathroom in public yet; that's going to be interesting.

I agree with Terquem to a point about makeup. My preference for women is less makeup or a more natural look. I generally prefer no makeup on women. However, there are plenty of women who have mastered the art of making themselves up and using it to enhance their beauty and I certainly enjoy that as well. For myself, I feel like I need makeup because I am clearly a man. I have the facial hair/stubble, features, etc. I can't feminize myself just by putting on a wig and a dress. I need to cover up or modify my features otherwise I won't look how I want to look.

When I'm just around the house, alone or with friends, I don't usually put on makeup. This holds true even if I'm just ordering a pizza. When I want to go out even just to a drive thru, I will put on some quick makeup so that I am at least presentable at a quick glance. While I haven't left my home dressed up at all in a year, I'm ready to once again. I need to get back into being presentable.

I don't really care if anyone calls me male or female. I'm certainly male but when I'm talking about being Cindy, calling me female certainly seems to fit so it's ok.

If anyone wants to see what Cindy looks like, here's a few pictures:

Face
St Pauli
Short Black Hair

Those are all one to two years old.

Liberty's Edge

Your links are the wrong way around, Bob :) (You've got the Descriptive text and the URL switched up!)

I think you look great, personally. :D


I can't even get the links right. How am I supposed to get the eyes right? ;)

Thanks for the compliment! My aunt took the St Pauli and the close up pictures. She's been really supportive. I did the blurry one with my old cell phone. I'm going to try and get some good ones this Friday.

Oh, I should mention that those glasses are prescription and very inexpensive. Anyone who needs to have a pair for themselves should go to http://www.zennioptical.com/ I can have male and female style glasses for cheap.

Liberty's Edge Digital Products Assistant

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Bob_Loblaw wrote:
So let me shed some confusion on myself. I am a bisexual guy who identifies as male. I enjoy dressing as a woman but I can't seem to get the makeup right because I don't understand skin tones or how to do my eyes. When I do dress as a woman, I go by Cindy. I haven't had to deal with the confusion of needing to use the bathroom in public yet; that's going to be interesting.

You'll be happy to know that the Raygun has a gender-neutral bathroom.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I agree with Terquem to a point about makeup. My preference for women is less makeup or a more natural look. I generally prefer no makeup on women. However, there are plenty of women who have mastered the art of making themselves up and using it to enhance their beauty and I certainly enjoy that as well. For myself, I feel like I need makeup because I am clearly a man. I have the facial hair/stubble, features, etc. I can't feminize myself just by putting on a wig and a dress. I need to cover up or modify my features otherwise I won't look how I want to look.

How you accessorize yourself is a very personal choice, with a myriad of inputs. I like doing my eyes a little crazy and unnatural, personally, because I like what it communicates about me. I actually think about makeup like bending. Pancake makeup to knock down all your features and then creams and colors to build them back up s straight-up earthbending; it's blunt and tough and brings laws down exactly what you want right the f*** now. Super-light, delicate makeup to unify your features is like airbending; you're not even trying to touch things so much as keep them all in harmony. Playing down your bad features and emphasizing your great features (what I tend to do) is your waterbending; you're using people's psychology and preconceptions to move them where you want them to go, optically speaking. And high-intensity, bright, obvious makeup is firebending; its all about action and display and pushing your will and attitude in a way everyone will notice. No style is really wrong, but different styles suit different people.

If you're going to be a woman, even part-time, you need to accept that there's no wrong way to be a woman.

As a follow-up, and I hope this doesn't come across as insensitive, I've actually always wondered what the appeal of crossdressing was. I can wrap my head around wanting to be a woman or wanting to be a man, but in all honesty, I could never get my head around the idea of 'just visiting.'


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Bob you are still within the time window to correct the links - the part you put inside [ url= xxx ] is the one that should go between [ url ] and [ url] and the part that you put between [ url ] and [ url] should go to [ url = xxx ]


Terquem wrote:
I kind of wish women did not wear make up. When a woman wears make up, in my eyes, she is simply making an effort to pretend she is something she is not. She is putting on an image that she has been forced to believe our culture demands of her (and it does, so it is not as if I am saying she should rebel against her inclinations).

Couple points here. First of all, what do you think of cisgendered men who wear makeup? I know some emo/gothboys who look absolutely astounding in mascara. Are they also trying to pretend when they enhance their features to look prettier and more striking?

Taking it outside our culture entirely, there are many places in the world where both men and women paint their faces and bodies decoratively for various reasons. Sometimes the reasons are spiritual, sometimes celebratory and artistic, sometimes the painting is socially significant for other reasons.

Second, while I would never presume to tell another adult how they should or should not artistically alter their own appearance to please themselves, for myself I feel much the same way. The idea of "dressing up" or painting my face feels fraudulent and inauthentic to me. Someone who does not like the real me and my real bare face can go f%$#@ themselves, cause I'm sure not gonna.

Keep in mind that I'm on the FtM trans spectrum, so for me, making female specific social presentations is always going to feel inauthentic anyway. But, I actually feel pretty much the same way about making ANY specific social presentation regardless of gender. I prefer to operate on a WYSWIG interface, and I tend to distrust people who don't do the same.

But at the same time I recognize that this is a personal preference and I absolutely respect the rights of others, regardless of their gender or orientation, to dress and decorate themselves in any way that pleases them. It is None Of My Business. I am indeed more comfortable around other simple-interface folks like myself who have no interest or desire in making elaborate social presentations of any kind. But that's my personal preference, not a dictate as to what anyone else can or should do with their own body.

This said, the one exception my discomfort makes is for another trans* person who feels strongly that they are a gender that they don't naturally look like they are, so they need some external help to express their authentic interior selves. That's not being inauthentic or fraudulent at all. That is having the guts to show the truth of who they are on the inside, even when their outside doesn't yet match, and I have nothing but respect for that.

Liberty's Edge

One of my best friends is a gay man who crossdresses (or, well, he used to; not sure if he does any more as I haven't spoken to him recently). He always just did it purely because he loved women's clothing. Women's clothing is so much NICER. :)

And, uh, as an outsider who doesn't crossdress, I personally REALLY dig people who do. I really enjoy the gender fluidity of it. There's something really appealing about the mix of femininity and masculinity without really veering too far into either camp.

This is Miyazawa Sae from AKB48 (Japanese pop/idol group). Now, keeping in mind that idols have sculpted "personas" effectively, she's typically shown to have a rather boyish personality and thus winds up often in photo shoots where she's dressed up like that. And I'm a huge and shameful fangirl. ;)

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