The LGBT Gamer Community Thread.


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What is the term when a new change and direction is assumed to be an old standard, always there and persistent?

It is late, I can't put my finger on it.

We never changed, it was like this all along! That is what I mean by newly implanted, recently ported, an original representation given to the setting, but not entirely fitting with what has been presented thus far.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Yeah, no. Just because someone is a racist f-wit does not mean they get to tell racial minorities to get to the back of the bus or get off the pages to prevent their white privilege from being disrupted. This is no different. People being uncomfortable with confronting their prejudices is their problem, not anyone else's.

Liberty's Edge

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Uhhhhh you do realise the very first issue of the Pathfinder AP had a gay couple in it, right?

It has been like this all along.


3.5 Loyalist wrote:

That stance can be taken, to attack and reject everyone that doesn't keep up (or feel comfortable) with the changes, but it reveals Hadesblade was not entirely wrong. To say accept or leave indicates that yes, it is very political, there is a reason and a cause behind the changes.

On that day, the progressive ceases to be inclusive and it becomes about pushing the agenda of an interest group over the wishes of others in the game. Here are the new gay characters, accept it, that is how things are now (officially anyway).

Are they (the interest group and their supporters) the good guys? Are they the bad guys? That isn't a question I much care about. I don't like it when the hobby has political causes dragged into it, and LGBT is big news in America at the moment. All the rage as it were. So in that sense I agree with Hades and he has identified political intrusion into our game.

Um I have to disagree.... Making sure that everybody gets a fair go is not a political agenda, it's decency. If sections of our community were being treated equally then there would be no need for the activism and the "big news" as you call it would not be news.

I am guessing that you will be voting for Tony this election.... 3.5?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Loyalist,
Yeah, because Paizo hasn't had LGBT people in EVERY SINGLE DAMN Adventure Path since they started them, have they? Right back in Sandpoint there's a same sex couple. This is not new stuff, so your point is factually inaccurate. Doesn't matter, LGBT have been on Golarion since the very beginning so all those uncomfortable are the ones asking to change. Go ask them why they want to change the setting like this.


Alice Margatroid wrote:

Uhhhhh you do realise the very first issue of the Pathfinder AP had a gay couple in it, right?

It has been like this all along.

I was going to bring that up.

A hidden, secret gay couple. Now after a fair bit of quiet, it is coming out more strongly, more confidently I would also say.


The couple weren't secret all of Sandpoint knew about them, the relationship wasn't an issue for anybody in Sandpoint (except the Scarneti) any more than any of the hetro couples.


Paul Watson wrote:

Loyalist,

Yeah, because Paizo hasn't had LGBT people in EVERY SINGLE DAMN Adventure Path since they started them, have they? Right back in Sandpoint there's a same sex couple. This is not new stuff, so your point is factually inaccurate. Doesn't matter, LGBT have been on Golarion since the very beginning so all those uncomfortable are the ones asking to change. Go ask them why they want to change the setting like this.

If you want to go back to that, then we have to check it closely and see if you aren't telling fibs.

Hmmm, L and B. No T there. They weren't male, so not G either.

LB. Not "there" since the beginning. Unless you would like to prove me wrong?

EDIT: I was referring to Ileosa and Sabine in Korvosa.

AS for Sandpoint, what was the couple there again? The names elude me.

Liberty's Edge

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... Part of the reason they introduced a transgendered character (and, might I add, the Empyreal Lord Arshea) was because they realised (thanks to someone asking a question at a panel at a con) they didn't have such a representation yet. And look at the drama it's caused.

(I'm not sure if Miss Feathers counts...)

Also, the NPCs in Sandpoint are Cyrdak Drokkus and Jasper Korvaski. (I had to go look it up myself--it's been a while.)


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3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:

Loyalist,

Yeah, because Paizo hasn't had LGBT people in EVERY SINGLE DAMN Adventure Path since they started them, have they? Right back in Sandpoint there's a same sex couple. This is not new stuff, so your point is factually inaccurate. Doesn't matter, LGBT have been on Golarion since the very beginning so all those uncomfortable are the ones asking to change. Go ask them why they want to change the setting like this.

If you want to go back to that, then we have to check it closely and see if you aren't telling fibs.

Hmmm, L and B. No T there. They weren't male, so not G either.

LB. Not "there" since the beginning. Unless you would like to prove me wrong?

EDIT: I was referring to Ileosa and Sabine in Korvosa.

Mate I think you are starting to slide into rude and edge towards Trolling. If you are "devils advocating" for kicks, I suggest you pick another argument to get your jollies.

The GLTB community on the Paizo boards are, articulate, passionate, interesting posters, with a lot to offer, and while they don't need me to stand up for them, I will stand beside them.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Spoilered, just in case

Spoiler:
Jasper and Cyrdak. Shayliss was also confirmed as probably bisexual

So, by your overly pedantic and narrow reading of the point,Ileosa and Savbine shouldn't have happened as no lesbians have been in Pathfinder since the beginning.

EDIT: Also what the 8th Dwarf said.

Silver Crusade

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In real life there have been L, G, B and people who thought they were in the wrong body, since pre-history.

The idea that this has all been taboo, except for the last 50 years, is not true.

At different times and places, different cultures have had different taboos and prejudices, including Christianity itself.

I don't believe for a moment that Golarion (or any other fantasy world) would be any different.

It is not incumbent on the writers of APs to mention which villages have LGBT people in them! We can assume that a roughly average proportion of any community will be LGBT, and the effect of having such things as taboo to that community will not be an elimination of LGBT, but simply forcing LGBT people into a closet.

Acknowledging the reality of the existence of LGBT in any community is not an attempt to brainwash the masses! You don't brainwash with the truth, you brainwash with lies!

Supressing the knowledge of the existence of LGBT people is the 'political agenda', the 'brainwashing', the lie.

This is why the new Russian anti-gay laws are wrong. Whatever human rights credibility Russian pole-vaulters may have, the idea that Russians are 'normal', and defining 'normal' as 'not gay', is simply deliberately ignoring the fact that a 'normal' society will include some LGBT people.

Ah, well. This is the two cents worth of a straight guy. : /


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And then there are Incubi and Succubi, Succubi can take both sexes, make babies and produce offspring.

Are they also forced?

Silver Crusade

Should also be noted that Arshea has been with us since the first campaign setting hardcover. And Calistria has been in on gender fluidity since her article in Second Darkness at the latest.

Also for LGBT, the 3.x Court of Stars. One of their members actually inspired a holy barbarian PrC. :)


3.5 Loyalist wrote:

What is the term when a new change and direction is assumed to be an old standard, always there and persistent?

It is late, I can't put my finger on it.

We never changed, it was like this all along! That is what I mean by newly implanted, recently ported, an original representation given to the setting, but not entirely fitting with what has been presented thus far.

If it has a name, I cannot think of it.

Shall we for the sake of ease, refer to it as the "eurasia principle".(We have always been at war with Eurasia)

The Eurasia principle might be in play here, I suppose, but it seems unlikely, given that since day one of 'in print', there has been a gay paladin, in a happy monogamous relationship with a lovie bard, in the world of Golarion.


Question: Has there even been an adventure path without any LGBT NPCs?

Silver Crusade

Zombieneighbours wrote:
Question: Has there even been an adventure path without any LGBT NPCs?

We can scratch the four 3.5 APs off the list of candidates right off the bat. Kingmaker, Shattered Star, and Reign of Winter also had LGBT characters.

Technically the Schrodinger's Sexuality love interests bar every AP, but that's too easy. :)

Edit-Maybe Council of Thieves, and that'll probably be proven wrong within the next few hours.


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The problem that 3.5 Loyalist has brought up isn't something that can be addressed by Paizo or anyone else. Either the company includes the characters or they don't. By including them, they meet the desires of some of their customers. By not including them, they meet the desires of other customers. Both of those groups have to decide if they want to give their money to Paizo. It really does boil down to "like it or leave it" for either group. There's nothing Paizo can do about that. There is a third group, the one that doesn't care either way, that Paizo doesn't have to worry about in this situation.

People are free to spend their money any way they see fit. If someone finds that LGBT NPCs are not what they want, they don't have to support Paizo. If someone finds that they like the LGBT NPCs existing, then they can choose to support Paizo. In the end, what's really going to matter is whether or not Paizo puts out quality products that people want to pay for.

Transgender characters have existed since 1st Edition DnD. The Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity has been around for a very long time. I'm sure that there are characters who used this for a variety of purposes. While it was a cursed item, it was probably still something that was sought out by characters at times. Not every cursed item is a bad thing. Cursed just means that it doesn't work the way it was originally intended.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:

The problem that 3.5 Loyalist has brought up isn't something that can be addressed by Paizo or anyone else. Either the company includes the characters or they don't. By including them, they meet the desires of some of their customers. By not including them, they meet the desires of other customers. Both of those groups have to decide if they want to give their money to Paizo. It really does boil down to "like it or leave it" for either group. There's nothing Paizo can do about that. There is a third group, the one that doesn't care either way, that Paizo doesn't have to worry about in this situation.

People are free to spend their money any way they see fit. If someone finds that LGBT NPCs are not what they want, they don't have to support Paizo. If someone finds that they like the LGBT NPCs existing, then they can choose to support Paizo. In the end, what's really going to matter is whether or not Paizo puts out quality products that people want to pay for.

Transgender characters have existed since 1st Edition DnD. The Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity has been around for a very long time. I'm sure that there are characters who used this for a variety of purposes. While it was a cursed item, it was probably still something that was sought out by characters at times. Not every cursed item is a bad thing. Cursed just means that it doesn't work the way it was originally intended.

You say cursed, I say best sex toy in fiction. ;) If they existed in real life, all be it with easier removal, I'd be all over that ;)


Mikaze wrote:
Zombieneighbours wrote:


Technically the Schrodinger's Sexuality love interests bar every AP, but that's too easy. :)

i hadn't noticed that many Schrodinger's sexuality NPcs, I don't doubt they exist, but I can honestly only remember a few.


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You know, Loyalist, before you start too far down this road, you realize you are in the "The LGBT Gamer Community Thread" which until now, has been a nice quiet affirming community thread. So if reactions and responses to your comments start to seem a little less polite, well remember where you're at. Onward...

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Now, if because of recent successes in our world, a fantasy world starts changing and npcs start cropping up that seem really out of place (almost like they belong in our world, and not the fantasy setting), do you get why that may tick some people off? What was, can feel like it is being phased out, and replaced with new pc representations. The offended party can feel that they signed up for heroes and villains, and not trans folk that feel more suited to a capital city and a club down the road.

I know it won't be your favorite subject, but maybe do a little research on LGBT history before you start making this point. LGBT peeps have been living productive contributing lives for thousands of years. Maybe LGBT inclusiveness, hell even women- and people-of-color-inclusiveness, is relatively new to this hobby, but does the tiny bits of inclusive backstory really ruin the game for you and the old schoolers? We LGBT players and GMs have had to put up with constant instances of hetero relationships in the plots and hooks since we started playing... is a tiny bit of parity for NPCs that are like LGBT peeps that difficult to tolerate?! A nice chunk of Paizo employees and contributors are LGBT peeps, and many more have LGBT friends and family... and even they are somehow crossing a line by being inclusive?! Really?

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
So by giving people what they don't want and did not ask for, you pi** them off. In Australia there is a saying, you pi** in their chips. I get that you want it, and your friends and the cause want more of these progressive representations in fantasy, but not everyone is eager or happy to go along, or pleased about very recent additions (trans npc).

Dude, I gotta ask, do you even play Pathfinder? :) Like it's been mentioned before, there have been gay NPCs in Pathfinder since AP #1. Does it really bother you that much that now a trans NPC with a little bit of agency is presented for not even a full AP adventure? And it's somehow too difficult to just omit the trans backstory or convert the marriage into "good friends" or something? If GMs and players can't wing those little changes on the fly, then holy crap must those home games must go nuts when the PC hobos jump off the adventure boxcar.

3.5 Loyalist wrote:

Just being clear, L G and B have come into my games, as a result of my own choices as a dm (no adventure path tells me what to do, lol). A gay friend was pleased, another player went squeee at the choice for some gay romance, good non rustled jimmies over here at the gaming table. *Thumbs up*.

Yet not everyone is so pleased and paizo is risking a lot being so obedient to one cause and group.

...Try to implant what is unwelcome by some and also not wanted or which feels out of place and...

If you don't have a problem with it in your games, why are you working so doggedly as a pro bono advocate for those that do? Why can't these all these resistant GMs and players make their voices heard themselves?

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
This is an inevitable response from some previously very interested and dedicated players. The changes have driven them away (which I think is really unfortunate, I am not happy to see them go, differing political affiliations aside).

I don't think most of those opposed are bad people. But if it upsets them that much that the occasional fictional LGBT NPC gets to participate or have a little agency... well, then there must be tons of stuff every day that must piss them off. Frankly, my tolerance and patience is running pretty low, even as I try very hard to at least remain polite (and probably failing)... I know LGBT stuff is in the news constantly, and seeing LGBT NPCs in their gaming supplements might come as a surprise, or at least LGBT NPCs who aren't presented as deviants or evil. But c'mon, is it so hard to ignore a NPC's gender identity, or who they might prefer to spend their life together with, long enough to see that they aren't really that different than the hetero NPCs you are used to? Does it really make the game unplayable to see the prince want to marry another prince, and live a happy life together as good characters? Or to have a "Joan of Arc" paladin become a John of Arc paladin?

In the open source software movement, if an individual or group doesn't like how a project or even the kernel is being developed, they can always "fork it": split off and develop how they want to. Thanks to the OGL, we have Pathfinder and 4e/DNDNext and a couple old school clones. If LGBT inclusiveness taints Pathfinder or any other edition beyond tolerance, maybe they'd just be happier forking the kernel into their own edition and setting. Paizo has repeatedly said they aren't going to stop being inclusive, so why keep butting your collective heads against the wall? Seriously, don't keep playing a game that makes you unhappy.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Alice Margatroid wrote:

For a lot of people, myself included, LGBT isn't "big news". It's not "political". It's life. I'm not trying to push some agenda when I try to support Paizo's decisions in this matter. It's literally just me being happy that I can empathise with a character in a way I don't often get to.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Paizo's decision to include LGBT characters is less about politics and more about acknowledging the reality that some of their employees (and their customers!) live as well.

Unfortunately, the expansion and defense of equal human rights has always been intensely political because some people can't stand to give up the privilege that they have. But the expansion of rights is the promise of the liberal political philosophies that underlie modern democracy and most of Western civilization. And I'm happy to support that particular political agenda.

Sexual identity group rights are a hot topic right now, probably the premiere civil rights issue of my generation. The political environment has never been so primed for positive change on LGBT issues. Now is the time to press forward, not back off.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Mikaze wrote:
Zombieneighbours wrote:
Question: Has there even been an adventure path without any LGBT NPCs?

We can scratch the four 3.5 APs off the list of candidates right off the bat. Kingmaker, Shattered Star, and Reign of Winter also had LGBT characters.

Technically the Schrodinger's Sexuality love interests bar every AP, but that's too easy. :)

Edit-Maybe Council of Thieves, and that'll probably be proven wrong within the next few hours.

And even pre-Golarion. Shackled City's BBEG

Spoiler:
Adimarchus, was a male fallen-angel-turned-demon-prince who (it could be interpreted) fell in love with a male paladin, Athux (although he turned out to be Graz'zt's son).

From Council of Thieves:

Spoiler:
Bastards of Erebus, Part Six F: there are two tiefling rogues that have recently become lovers. Doesn't mention their genders, so it could be F/F, M/F or M/M.

This is the only thing I found searching for "love" in the six AP installments.

Liberty's Edge

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Bill Dunn wrote:
Alice Margatroid wrote:

For a lot of people, myself included, LGBT isn't "big news". It's not "political". It's life. I'm not trying to push some agenda when I try to support Paizo's decisions in this matter. It's literally just me being happy that I can empathise with a character in a way I don't often get to.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Paizo's decision to include LGBT characters is less about politics and more about acknowledging the reality that some of their employees (and their customers!) live as well.

Unfortunately, the expansion and defense of equal human rights has always been intensely political because some people can't stand to give up the privilege that they have. But the expansion of rights is the promise of the liberal political philosophies that underlie modern democracy and most of Western civilization. And I'm happy to support that particular political agenda.

Sexual identity group rights are a hot topic right now, probably the premiere civil rights issue of my generation. The political environment has never been so primed for positive change on LGBT issues. Now is the time to press forward, not back off.

I definitely agree with you, but I'd argue that the fight for equal rights is a little different (although certainly connected to) having and supporting LGBT representation in media.

I'm fiercely political when it comes to LGBT rights (among other things), but really, I just want to live my life without being bothered by people. I like seeing two girls or two guys together because it's cute and because it makes me think of my own relationship or that of my friends. There's no underlying politics here.

This reminds me... Mikaze, where is your next instalment of your short story thingy? Y'know, the firefly... :)


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Just as a point of interest, rising out of Loyalists comments on this:

While I hope I am a good example of a straight ally, if there had been a Major thematic change to the setting to include LGBT NPCs in a societal accepted form in a setting where they had previously not been accepted, I would be crying foul.

Not because I don't think such characters have a place in gaming, but because they don't have a place in that setting, and because there are many other interesting ways to play an LGBT character in that setting, without taking apart the setting. After all, there is room for lot of different setting.

But this definitely isn't what is going on with Golarion.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
If you don't have a problem with it in your games, why are you working so doggedly as a pro bono advocate for those that do? Why can't these all these resistant GMs and players make their voices heard themselves?

I don't know his reasons, but his posts on this subject have had a whiff of the gender/sexuality equivalent of "Some of my best friends a jewish, but..."

i am not saying that is what is going on, but reading Loyalists posts on this subject do leave me feeling ever so slightly uncomfortable, regardless of their intent.

Silver Crusade

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Like Alice, I like to think that my life, my relationships, and the mere fact that I exist is not a de facto political statement. It saddens me that it can be viewed that way.

If a Paizo product made a statement in favor of legalizing gay marriage in the US or extending protections against employment discrimination, that would be political. The statement that "gay people exist" is not political.


Celestial Healer wrote:
The statement that "gay people exist" is not political.

I wish that were so. There are a number of people -- and organizations -- that take the official stance that "gay people do not exist" and use that as justification for anti-gay policies.

For obvious reasons, i name no names. But It's very easy to deny gay partners any sort of benefits if you literally deny the existence of gay employees. This stance can and has been used to prevent any discussion of the issue, on the grounds that "the problem doesn't arise."

I've seen this carried to the extent of "Wait a minute, I'm an employee, and I'm gay."//"No, you're not gay."

... which boggles the mind, but there it is.


And on the good news front, apparently both New Mexico and Pennsylvania county clerks have started issuing same-sex marriage licenses. w00t! I hope they don't get overturned in the courts, and that it leads to spikes business for wedding cakes and catering, flowers, local hotel and b&b rentals, and tourism.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
And on the good news front, apparently both New Mexico and Pennsylvania county clerks have started issuing same-sex marriage licenses. w00t! I hope they don't get overturned in the courts.

So do I, but I'm not sanguine. Ignoring the law-as-written is not a traditional part of a county clerk's authority, even when the constitutionality of the law as written is questionable. Some offices have a certain amount of discretion built-in to the job; for example, the district attorney gets to decide whether a prosecution is in the public interest, but a jailor doesn't get to decide that a conviction was unjust and simply set a prisoner free.


Zombieneighbours wrote:

Just as a point of interest, rising out of Loyalists comments on this:

While I hope I am a good example of a straight ally, if there had been a Major thematic change to the setting to include LGBT NPCs in a societal accepted form in a setting where they had previously not been accepted, I would be crying foul.

Not because I don't think such characters have a place in gaming, but because they don't have a place in that setting, and because there are many other interesting ways to play an LGBT character in that setting, without taking apart the setting. After all, there is room for lot of different setting.

But this definitely isn't what is going on with Golarion.

Can you give an example hypothetical? I'm honestly not following you on this.

Zombieneighbours wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
If you don't have a problem with it in your games, why are you working so doggedly as a pro bono advocate for those that do? Why can't these all these resistant GMs and players make their voices heard themselves?

I don't know his reasons, but his posts on this subject have had a whiff of the gender/sexuality equivalent of "Some of my best friends a jewish, but..."

i am not saying that is what is going on, but reading Loyalists posts on this subject do leave me feeling ever so slightly uncomfortable, regardless of their intent.

I thought I read in an undercurrent of something, but I'm trying not to put motives behind his actions that aren't there. He does have a posting record of just not letting go of his point, e.g. his "censorship" threads in Website Feedback.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
And on the good news front, apparently both New Mexico and Pennsylvania county clerks have started issuing same-sex marriage licenses. w00t! I hope they don't get overturned in the courts.

So do I, but I'm not sanguine. Ignoring the law-as-written is not a traditional part of a county clerk's authority, even when the constitutionality of the law as written is questionable. Some offices have a certain amount of discretion built-in to the job; for example, the district attorney gets to decide whether a prosecution is in the public interest, but a jailor doesn't get to decide that a conviction was unjust and simply set a prisoner free.

Well, New Mexico failed to ban same-sex marriages when it last was on the ballot, even though they haven't specifically legalized it either. And a NM judge ordered the clerks to start issuing them. In PA, the attorney general is refusing to enforce their state Defense of Marriage act. Hopefully the recent 9th Circuit Court ruling will carry significant weight in their circuit court rulings as well.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Zombieneighbours wrote:

Just as a point of interest, rising out of Loyalists comments on this:

While I hope I am a good example of a straight ally, if there had been a Major thematic change to the setting to include LGBT NPCs in a societal accepted form in a setting where they had previously not been accepted, I would be crying foul.

Not because I don't think such characters have a place in gaming, but because they don't have a place in that setting, and because there are many other interesting ways to play an LGBT character in that setting, without taking apart the setting. After all, there is room for lot of different setting.

But this definitely isn't what is going on with Golarion.

Can you give an example hypothetical? I'm honestly not following you on this.

Is any part of Golarion expressly written to be culturally homophobic? (Not just left unexpressed and therefore left to the GM's discretion?)

If any such area exists, and a same-sex NPC couple were publically and blatantly 'out,' that would be a problem for verisimilitude, just as a publically and blatantly atheistic Archbishop in a Golarion theocracy would be a problem.

My understanding is that Paizo hasn't really written much about societal attitudes towards sexuality. If anything.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Amborsia Slaad,
I think ZN is suggesting that if a setting was more "traditional Dark Ages" with a major faith persecuting homosexual characters for a while then included an out LGBT character, that would be a problem as it goes counter to the established setting, whereas Golarion doens't have that issue.


Paul Watson wrote:

Amborsia Slaad,

I think ZN is suggesting that if a setting was more "traditional Dark Ages" with a major faith persecuting homosexual characters for a while then included an out LGBT character, that would be a problem as it goes counter to the established setting, whereas Golarion doens't have that issue.

This. I think that there's definitely room to publish a setting where homophobia is a defined societal norm, just as there's room to publish outright racist settings where being a halfling is a major problem. (I think Cheliax is an example of the second; in fact, I think almost all of the D&D derivatives would qualify from the point of view of most goblins.)

In that setting, an openly-gay guildmaster would be out of place, just as a halfling Paraduke would be an issue in Cheliax.


Orfamay Quest wrote:

Is any part of Golarion expressly written to be culturally homophobic? (Not just left unexpressed and therefore left to the GM's discretion?)

If any such area exists, and a same-sex NPC couple were publically and blatantly 'out,' that would be a problem for verisimilitude, just as a publically and blatantly atheistic Archbishop in a Golarion theocracy would be a problem.

My understanding is that Paizo hasn't really written much about societal attitudes towards sexuality. If anything.

Paul Watson wrote:

Ambrosia Slaad,

I think ZN is suggesting that if a setting was more "traditional Dark Ages" with a major faith persecuting homosexual characters for a while then included an out LGBT character, that would be a problem as it goes counter to the established setting, whereas Golarion doens't have that issue.

Ah, well that would bug me, 1) for destroying the PCs agency, 2) tell over show, and 3) breaking canon. I wouldn't mind its existence but sweeping changes that "just happen" off-stage ruin the players' and GM's time and emotional investment in the setting. This was my major peeve with the major plots in the Forgotten Realms toward the end of 3/3.5e being almost completely driven by the novel line, and at least one adventure trilogy having zero impact on stopping the forces of evil. Likewise, if Razmir or Mengkare suddenly get the boot, or Nex comes back, or Zon-Kuthon reverts to Dou-Bral, I want an AP that lets the PCs have a hand in making that happen.


I think that most people in this thread are on that particular page, Ambrosia. Not necessarily because LGBTQ-alphabet salad is bad, but because bad writing is bad.


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3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Now, if because of recent successes in our world, a fantasy world starts changing and npcs start cropping up that seem really out of place (almost like they belong in our world, and not the fantasy setting), do you get why that may tick some people off?

And LGBT people don't belong in a fantasy setting because...?

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
What was, can feel like it is being phased out, and replaced with new pc representations. The offended party can feel that they signed up for heroes and villains, and not trans folk that feel more suited to a capital city and a club down the road.

You're not meaning to say that trans folk cannot be heroes or villains, are you? And you're not meaning to say that trans folk are only in capital cities and in "clubs down the road" (whatever that means)? You get that we're all over the place, and lead regular lives?

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Yet not everyone is so pleased and paizo is risking a lot being so obedient to one cause and group.

"Obedient" implies we're in charge, we make a demand, they jump to it. I don't think that's how it works. Also, keep in mind that, as Paizo staff have repeatedly pointed out, part of the staff is LGBT. Some of the freelancers are LGBT. And those who are not often have LGBT friends and/or relatives. Their own lives are LGBT-inclusive, so they create a product that reflects their own experience, and is LGBT-inclusive.

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Try to implant what is unwelcome by some and also not wanted or which feels out of place and...

Still not getting the "feels out of place" part of all this.

Look, here's how it can work in the real world. I'm out at work. Everyone knows I'm trans. It very rarely comes up. We're too busy doing our work, or when we're talking, there's too many other things to talk about. About the only times it comes up are when something trans-related is in the news, and some people mention it to me (like "Orange Is the New Black" or Chelsea Manning), or when an opportunity for a friendly joke arises, always initiated by me. (A male colleague who's growing his hair long asked if I had any tips to avoid thinning or balding hair. I said, funny you should ask, testosterone blockers would do the trick, and by strange coincidence, I just happen to have some handy...) In the day to day running of things, my transness is not an issue. We go about our business, do our stuff, go home, come in the next day, do it again.

How is the role of LGBT characters in RPGs any different? How is the role of the characters in the AP that reignited this debate any different? Okay, there's a romance between two LGBT characters. Okay, they're married. Do those characters function any differently from how non-LGBT married characters would function in the same AP?


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3.5 Loyalist wrote:
I get that, inaction can also be highly political. I also can see you have your cause, and you think you are the good guys.

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So...being queer and wanting queer characters is a "political statement", but wanting exclusively "gender neutral" characters in APs because "squick, this should NEVER be about sex!" isn't a political statement?

Why is it okay for you to be able to have heroes to identify with, but its totally not cool for us to have heroes to identify with?

It seems to me that the homophobia game has changed, and the victimizes want to be the victims because reasons. ~~~I'm not personally calling YOU a homophobe, Loyalist~~ They won't out and out say that its gross anymore because that's not popular. Instead, they say things like "I don't mind gay people" or "I've lived with gay people! I know all about them!" and turn around and tell us that they don't think they should be anywhere near them or their precious RPG because its shoving it down their throats.

No one is shoving anything down your throat. We just want to be represented in our hobby the way you have been for decades. Now that we're finally getting it, we're told that we're "pushing an agenda" and that WE'RE the bigots for simply wanting to share some limelight! HOW DARE WE ask for equal billing in a FANTASY WORLD?

It took me 23 years to finally be able to identify as queer. 23 years where I was ashamed of my attraction to other men, and totally in denial because it was "wrong" to feel that way. Having a character, a HEROIC character, that I could look at and say "hey, I guess I'm not that different!" would have been amazing to have when I was growing up. It seems dumb and forceful to you because chances are, you already HAD all of that growing up.

Please, please, stop trying to make us feel like bad people for wanting to have the same things as you. Stop for one moment and realize that you have some things that you take for granted, and stop trying to marginalize us to make your position look better, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MAKE YOU LOOK BETTER AT ALL.

I don't want you to be replaced, I just want to share the game with you. However, I still stand by my personal declaration: if anyone thinks its wrong that I be represented too, and they want to leave in a huff, then I'll hold the door open for them.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Folks, 3.5 Sexologist will, always, to the death, defend anybody critical of what Paizo writes in their books. What they are actually critical about is of secondary importance, the point is that people who speak negatively of products with the purple golem logo need a champion and a defender, and there he is. You know, because that rabid army of fanboys needs to be balanced by somebody with a refined mind and sharp wit yadda yadda. That's pretty much his MO since day one here :)


Tirisfal wrote:
Having a character, a HEROIC character, that I could look at and say "hey, I guess I'm not that different!" would have been amazing to have when I was growing up. It seems dumb and forceful to you because chances are, you already HAD all of that growing up.

Completely agree with this.


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KSF wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Now, if because of recent successes in our world, a fantasy world starts changing and npcs start cropping up that seem really out of place (almost like they belong in our world, and not the fantasy setting), do you get why that may tick some people off?
And LGBT people don't belong in a fantasy setting because...?

I think his point is that LGBT people, like early horseless carriages in Pennsylvania, frighten Golarian's sensitive souls and cattle, and therefore should immediately run and hide in the roadside bushes until such genteel souls pass.

KSF wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
The offended party can feel that they signed up for heroes and villains, and not trans folk that feel more suited to a capital city and a club down the road.
You're not meaning to say that trans folk cannot be heroes or villains, are you? And you're not meaning to say that trans folk are only in capital cities and in "clubs down the road" (whatever that means)? You get that we're all over the place, and lead regular lives?

I'm thinking he has trans* people confused with some new form of lycanthropy that only appears under the light of a full disco ball, and the poor dear is caught without his +1 silver bane (trans) sword. It's ok, trans* people don't bite, except the ones into a little BDSM, and even they will ask your safeword first. Edit: Now I have a mental picture of Fremen planting thumpers to call kaiju Christine Jorgensen like a Shai Hulud.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
I'm thinking he has trans* people confused with some new form of lycanthropy that only appears under the light of a full disco ball, and the poor dear is caught without his +1 silver bane (trans) sword. It's ok, trans* people don't bite, except the ones into a little BDSM, and even they will ask your safeword first.

Well, to try and be fair to him, it's not clear if that's what he feels, or if that what he thinks the people he's defending feel. It might be as Gorbacz says.

But otherwise, yeah. Though I wish it were a form of lycanthropy. It'd be a lot less expensive that way.


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KSF wrote:
Though I wish it were a form of lycanthropy. It'd be a lot less expensive that way.

Yeah, I'd be great for the trans guys: "Woo-hoo, instant hair everywhere! A beard to make a dwarf jealous." To the trans ladies, an epic nightmare of neverending electrolysis.

Hmmm, Real Cheliaxian Housewives at a spa with gnome wizards using scorching ray spells for laser hair removal...


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Celestial Healer wrote:

Like Alice, I like to think that my life, my relationships, and the mere fact that I exist is not a de facto political statement. It saddens me that it can be viewed that way.

If a Paizo product made a statement in favor of legalizing gay marriage in the US or extending protections against employment discrimination, that would be political. The statement that "gay people exist" is not political.

Generally, I agree. Philosophically, I detest the idea that the personal is political (including things like sexual identity), because I believe it should be apolitical. The fact that two of the three people my votes helped put into office in Washington are gay is immaterial to me. I vote for them because of their stands on the issues, none of which are inherent to being gay. Unfortunately, since people (blacks, homosexuals, Latinos, women, etc) have been marginalized for being what they are, I think it has to be a political statement for a while until it no longer needs to be. Then I hope the political nature of such identities will fade away..


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
KSF wrote:
Though I wish it were a form of lycanthropy. It'd be a lot less expensive that way.

Yeah, I'd be great for the trans guys: "Woo-hoo, instant hair everywhere! A beard to make a dwarf jealous." To the trans ladies, an epic nightmare of neverending electrolysis.

Hmmm, Real Cheliaxian Housewives at a spa with gnome wizards using scorching ray spells for laser hair removal

Huh. That raises a point I hadn't thought about. What are transwomen doing for the equivalent of electrolysis in Golarion, those that don't have access to a magic whammy to do the full change? I mean, I guess there's always close shaving and careful makeup application. But I wonder if there's any tiered set of economic options like in the real world?


Bill Dunn wrote:


Generally, I agree. Philosophically, I detest the idea that the personal is political (including things like sexual identity), because I believe it should be apolitical.

The personal has always been the political. You say it yourself:

Quote:
I vote for them because of their stands on the issues

... which is to say, you vote for them because their values and opinions match yours.

As long as "honesty" is a consideration for public office -- as I hope it always is -- the personal will always be political.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Edit: Now I have a mental picture of Fremen planting thumpers to call kaiju Christine Jorgensen like a Shai Hulud.

Do they call her to... or... Oh, never mind!


KSF wrote:
What are transwomen doing for the equivalent of electrolysis in Golarion, those that don't have access to a magic whammy to do the full change? I mean, I guess there's always close shaving and careful makeup application. But I wonder if there's any tiered set of economic options like in the real world?

My understanding is that depilatory creams date back to Ancient Egypt at least. (The chemicals involved were quicklime or vinegar, I believe.) So there'd be no problem with buying the Cheliax version of Nair, especially with the toys that alchemists can produce in Pathfinder. My understanding is that they've got better hangover cures than we do... so better Nair wouldn't surprise me.


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To all people that said transsexual people are rare and should not be in pathfinder because it’s such a rarity and uncommon.:

How can it be strange that somebody is born in the wrong body? I mean a women and a man are something very different, they lead very different lives, their sexual experience is very different, so if you prefer the life of the other sex and you have the courage to do it, then why not?
Who is he/she hurting with it? Probably her/his parents at first, but they grow to love them if they have a soul, some parents even support it from the start if they really love their child and want to see him/her happy.

And I’m 100% sure there would be a lot more transsexual people in this world if it wasn't such a taboo for many people, I think many people want to trade gender, but they are afraid of what may happen to them, with family, work, school maybe, on the streets, having to deal with many religions and short minded people on the street...

So my guess it there would be tons of people who want to trade gender and become a transsexual, but they are afraid to do it.
I’m actually one of them, or better said, I WAS one of them, because I actually have grown to appreciate my male body now (but it took me some time to get there), but if I had the courage when I was younger and I wanted to do it back then, I’m sure I wouldn’t had regrets now, a life as female or male is both appealing to me, but you can’t have both at the same time.

Some people really dislike their life as female or male, they can only become happy when they changed, I think it’s pathetic when other people spoil that for them by not accepting something that isn’t theirs to decide at all.

+ you can make so many awesome, strange and surprising stories with them, it could even build an entire AP around the subject of gender change.

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