The LGBT Gamer Community Thread.


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Icelandese involvement with ye internet is typically limited to fishing up the Atlantic cable. =)

Okay, that was not pretty. Sowwies.


Sissyl wrote:
Icelandese involvement with ye internet is typically limited to fishing up the Atlantic cable. =)

They have to suck up souls of hundreds of thousands of EVE players somehow. :P


Drejk wrote:

Meanwhile Icelanders troll anti-gay evangelist.

I don't think we have poster(s) from Iceland... Could we get a few, please?

Long ago, when the internet operated via carrier anomalocaris, Eric Noah's boards used to get a lone Icelander. One of the mods even went up and visited him.


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Why labels are complicated.

Silver Crusade

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Interesting read. Yeah, labels can be convenient at times, but they can also be a hindrance.


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Just realized this fall will mark 8 years of being together for my husband and I, man are we getting old. :P

Also planning on playing a transgendered elf Inquisitor of Desna. I would love some input on how to pull this off more realistically. Male to female transition.

The Exchange

She would likely pack (heh, I said "pack") an overtly masculine set of clothes when she needs to man-up, otherwise she would do her best to pass or present as female.


Some more stereotypes...


Ugh, just saw a video reposted by a Danish LGBT activist group (To Russia With Love) showing a transwoman being beaten in Russia (but luckily escaping in the end) by 4 guys.
That's the kind of thing their legislation will only encourage even more, although it's been a problem for a long time over there. Heck, it's a problem elsewhere too, even in other countries where they don't have the same kind of legislation.
That kind of fear-induced hatred just makes me both sad and angry at the same time. :-/


To reply to the first post in this topic, the post from the TS. (very good post BTW)

My life has been bizarre because of my sexual preferences..
My mother accepts me, my father hates me, one of my brothers accepts me and the other despises me mostly because of his Arab friends.
My best friends from primary school turned out to be gay as well and I’m still their friend.
I have an 18 year older boyfriend who looks like Patrick Swayze (in his younger days) which I date for 7 years now (In September 13th it will be 7 years) and I rather date girls than I would date younger-than-myself gay guys, to me those are less attractive than girls, so it's very likely I return to being hetero when I reach the age of 80 and there are no older gay guys around anymore ;-)

I do have some “female” and “male” hobbies.
I’m a good skater and know how to do stunts and all, which is getting me respect from many heterosexual guys cuz they never think gay guys can be so athletic and sportive. To be fair I always was the best sporting guy in gym classes, only with soccer I always sucked, mostly I wanted to suck at it because of my overreacting soccer-loving father (if your rich daddy wants you to become a soccer player and even forces you to go on such a club, you learn to hate the sport eventually).
When I was young I loved to play with little ponies and dolls, but I also loved playing with animal toys, Nintendo, transformers, Gems & minerals, x-men, dinosaurs, cars and lego, I played hide N seek with girls but also build huts in the forest with guys, I really was a tomboy oddity among gays.
Too bad my father burned my Little Pony toys before my eyes because he hated the thought of his son playing with girl-toys, to me they were just horse toys with hair, I just loved the hair!

In games I tend to behave and play as girl character, but me being versatile (being manly or girly at the moments I see fit) sometimes I enjoy playing a fighter male character too, depends on my ever-changing chaotic moods.
In movies/games/books/stories/mythology and music my favorite artists/characters are mostly girls and women or very vile and evil backstabbing males, not muscled goodguys which I never really care for other than to find them attractive sometimes.
I also really like bizarre characters and creatures/characters nobody else cares for, I really dislike overused and very-much-liked characters such as Wolverine (x-men) for example.
In D&D-games I mostly play barbarians that think with everything except for their brains, just because I want to “shock” my D&D group not picking a elf, mage or female character. ;-)

Silver Crusade

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posting here per Chris Lambertz' recommendation instead of making another thread while angry

I don't miss the bad old days one bit.

I don't even know the specifics of what some people are complaining about because I want to play the AP involved, but apparently the gist of it is that there are LGBT people being portrayed as people in WotR.

Well good. Keep it up, along with portraying many other stripes of folk as folk.

I don't miss the days when entire swaths of people were barred from the game at all. I sure as hell don't miss their only representation here and there being laughable stereotypes.

Because frank quitely, I love having different kinds of people represented as people in fantasy settings. I love that the "default" fantasy landscape is no longer exclusively white. I love that LGBT folks can show up and not be pigeonholed into stupid stereotypes that serve only to stigmatize them or to render them "harmless" and "non-threatening".

I've been on the outside looking in before, and I know I sure as hell didn't have it as bad as the folks that a few object to being represented in the game. Nowhere near it in fact. Why anyone possessed of a modicum of empathy would want to keep people confined to the outskirts eludes me.

How anyone can look at people no longer being kept on the outs and go "AGENDA!"...well I don't know what to say.

But I do know one thing for damn certain, and here comes the plot twist Hadesblade:

I thank God every damn day that this kind of hatred is being eroded. Personally, this is the sort of thing that makes me hopeful. And you don't speak for all of us.

Keep it up games industry.


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Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

And another thing to add to what Mikaze said in bold letters - you're losing.

Silver Crusade

Also:

Freehold DM wrote:
Kajehase wrote:
List of things gay marriage apparently leads to.
lesbian queen! LESBIAN QUEEN!!!!!!

Well hell, I'd vote for her.

[/doesn'tknowhowtomonarchy]


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Heck, round my parts I'd say we can put that in the past tense. There's a few hold-ups left to clean up, maybe a battle or two might flare up over something (relatively compared to the big issues) trivial*, but the war is won.

*The one big thing left to change would be that persons going through a surgical gender-change have to accept being sterilised (I suspect this would have been dealt with earlier if, well, the current law wasn't so old that the people currently in parliament mostly weren't aware of it until two summers ago), which is going to be taken care off after the next election when we either will have a centre-left government or a centre-right government that will be able to deal their Christian Democrat members (if they even make it over the 4% needed for parliamentary seats) a sound defeat again.


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber
Mikaze wrote:

Also:

Freehold DM wrote:
Kajehase wrote:
List of things gay marriage apparently leads to.
lesbian queen! LESBIAN QUEEN!!!!!!

Well hell, I'd vote for her.

[/doesn'tknowhowtomonarchy]

Actually, most monarchies started out with the king (or, in rare cases, the queen) being elected by the powerful members of their polity.

Poland kept this until its third partition in the late 1700s, in Sweden we didn't formally become a hereditary monarchy until some point after the accession of Gustav Eriksson (Vasa) in 1520.


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

(Although in fairness sake - since being of royal blood tended to be a deciding factor in those elections, electing a lesbian queen could be bad for internal stability a generation down the line.)

The Exchange

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Mikaze wrote:

posting here per Chris Lambertz' recommendation instead of making another thread while angry

I don't miss the bad old days one bit.

I don't even know the specifics of what some people are complaining about because I want to play the AP involved, but apparently the gist of it is that there are LGBT people being portrayed as people in WotR.

Well good. Keep it up, along with portraying many other stripes of folk as folk.

I don't miss the days when entire swaths of people were barred from the game at all. I sure as hell don't miss their only representation here and there being laughable stereotypes.

Because frank quitely, I love having different kinds of people represented as people in fantasy settings. I love that the "default" fantasy landscape is no longer exclusively white. I love that LGBT folks can show up and not be pigeonholed into stupid stereotypes that serve only to stigmatize them or to render them "harmless" and "non-threatening".

I've been on the outside looking in before, and I know I sure as hell didn't have it as bad as the folks that a few object to being represented in the game. Nowhere near it in fact. Why anyone possessed of a modicum of empathy would want to keep people confined to the outskirts eludes me.

How anyone can look at people no longer being kept on the outs and go "AGENDA!"...well I don't know what to say.

But I do know one thing for damn certain, and here comes the plot twist Hadesblade:

I thank God every damn day that this kind of hatred is being eroded. Personally, this is the sort of thing that makes me hopeful. And you don't speak for all of us.

Keep it up games industry.

I saw Hadesblade's post canceling and his talk of how he is a Christian in the customer service area and I posted but had my post removed.

I am a Christian and I find his actions to be offensive to me because I have never read ANYWHERE in my bible where Jesus was intolerant and a bigot towards people of any race/class or sexual nature. In my readings I always see him being kind, helpful, uplifting, preaching about mutual respect between all peoples.
Christians who twist the words in the bible to their own group's nefarious and vile, hate-filled agenda are a discredit to the actual Christians who try to love their neighbor and be a light in this world of evil and are probably not being guided by a righteous God but rather by someone else who is using trickery and self-righteousness to guide them to a darker path.
I don't understand who this is a threat to sanctity of marriage or a horrible moral dilemma. Catholicism and many other Christian faiths are allowing marriages to be annulled or voided on a massive scale presently with no issues or problems. They used to not allow any future marriages and sometimes went as far as excommunication for getting divorced. I know someone who cheated on her husband for years, left him and their 2 kids, got divorced after 17 years of marriage, and is now getting an annulment.....and is still able to serve in church by doing readings and handing out communion. All with no issues.
If anyone is undermining the "Sanctity of Marriage", the majority would fall squarely on the shoulders of the Christian Churches who allow this stuff to take place.
I am a Christian. What that means is I try to act Christ-like. I try to be a light, not spread darkness.


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Mikaze wrote:


I don't even know the specifics of what some people are complaining about because I want to play the AP involved, but apparently the gist of it is that there are LGBT people being portrayed as people in WotR.

I will not say more out of respect for your spoiler sensitivity, but yes there are. Yes, it's done well.

And yes, the people that can't handle that can all go to hell. :)


Mikaze wrote:

posting here per Chris Lambertz' recommendation instead of making another thread while angry

I don't miss the bad old days one bit.

I don't even know the specifics of what some people are complaining about because I want to play the AP involved, but apparently the gist of it is that there are LGBT people being portrayed as people in WotR.

(...)

How anyone can look at people no longer being kept on the outs and go "AGENDA!"...well I don't know what to say.

But I do know one thing for damn certain, and here comes the plot twist Hadesblade:

I thank God every damn day that this kind of hatred is being eroded. Personally, this is the sort of thing that makes me hopeful. And you don't speak for all of us.

Keep it up games industry.

Apparently we had similar reaction upon reading certain recent post but I went for a much shorter (like three sentences) venting in FaWtL.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As usual, I took the bullet (and the likely tempban) for you guys :)


Drejk wrote:
Why labels are complicated.

Fascinating.

"It's just that some of the men I date have vaginas."

*Steps out of the Iain Banks culture novel, has a look around*
(in these books, members of the The Culture will often adjust sexual characteristics, experiment, get pregnant, switch back, their culture is about leisure and experimentation, not labels).


Fake Healer wrote:
Mikaze wrote:

posting here per Chris Lambertz' recommendation instead of making another thread while angry

I don't miss the bad old days one bit.

I don't even know the specifics of what some people are complaining about because I want to play the AP involved, but apparently the gist of it is that there are LGBT people being portrayed as people in WotR.

Well good. Keep it up, along with portraying many other stripes of folk as folk.

I don't miss the days when entire swaths of people were barred from the game at all. I sure as hell don't miss their only representation here and there being laughable stereotypes.

Because frank quitely, I love having different kinds of people represented as people in fantasy settings. I love that the "default" fantasy landscape is no longer exclusively white. I love that LGBT folks can show up and not be pigeonholed into stupid stereotypes that serve only to stigmatize them or to render them "harmless" and "non-threatening".

I've been on the outside looking in before, and I know I sure as hell didn't have it as bad as the folks that a few object to being represented in the game. Nowhere near it in fact. Why anyone possessed of a modicum of empathy would want to keep people confined to the outskirts eludes me.

How anyone can look at people no longer being kept on the outs and go "AGENDA!"...well I don't know what to say.

But I do know one thing for damn certain, and here comes the plot twist Hadesblade:

I thank God every damn day that this kind of hatred is being eroded. Personally, this is the sort of thing that makes me hopeful. And you don't speak for all of us.

Keep it up games industry.

I saw Hadesblade's post canceling and his talk of how he is a Christian in the customer service area and I posted but had my post removed.

I am a Christian and I find his actions to be offensive to me because I have never read ANYWHERE in my bible where Jesus was intolerant...

I saw his post too, and I wanted to talk about it. He was just talking about his preferences, raising his fist at what he saw as too much pc, and he stayed within the guidelines and rules. Guy was not a nut, or a nazi gormtrooper, but his thread got locked and he was directed to post elsewhere (which caused me to go, "seriously?" Stick to the camps for these type of posts?).

That seems pretty wrong to me. Guy talks in a forum he made on a gaming site about what is bothering him, paizo tries to silence the threat by locking it. That isn't very inclusive or respectful. Poor form paizo.

EDIT: as he cancelled his subscription, the thread on that also got locked:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q34h?Cancel-My-Subscriptions#1

They at least let him keep his original post up, but absolutely no discussion can be had there after the locking.


Kajehase wrote:
(Although in fairness sake - since being of royal blood tended to be a deciding factor in those elections, electing a lesbian queen could be bad for internal stability a generation down the line.)

Side topic! Yeah this came up in a politics game I ran. The king of Cormyr died, his daughter was the heir, she was... not eager to get knocked up, and basically wanted to be a knight, champion and adventurer. No one had the authority (and few had the levels) to tell her, no, get married and get to the bedchamber. The question of secession and the stability of the country was at stake.

Anyway, the country tore itself apart in this simulation, she eventually died, and the dukes stepped up, with one eventually becoming king and marrying a very distant relative of the princess to cement his claim. The lesbian warrior princess did not fly. Maybe one day Xena could pull it off in an adventure path.


I missed the fun. I'll get you yet, Baby Drejk!


Two words: gay dragons.
The quest to find the finest horde in all existence. Roll 12d12 art pieces.

Get on it paizo!

Liberty's Edge

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FYI, 3.5e Loyalist, Hadesblade was angry about a post of his that got deleted. I didn't see it so I have no idea what it was about, but I imagine a lot of the anger towards him probably relates to whatever it was about. I also suspect that it was deleted for breaking the "don't be a jerk" rule rather than any "agenda" to silence him, again judging by the reactions.

His latter posts, while quite closed minded, are more amusing than insulting. (Although he loses out to the apparent threats of legal action. Snrk.)


How is someone alienated because someone else is not? Paizo products haven't pushed any real-world religions at all. Every campaign has murderers, liars, cheats, etc but those are all ok even when they are the good guys but all of a sudden if there is someone who is gay that's the line in the sand? Why can't it just be a game? I'm not familiar with the AP, but is it possible for the GM to just say that the character(s) in question aren't LGBT? Would it affect the adventure too much? I've made changes to modules lots of time. Some were easier than others.

Liberty's Edge

@Bob,

All they would have to do is

Minor spoilers for WotR chapter 1:

make Anevia not be transgendered. Instead she would remain as Anvenn. The rest of her backstory would basically be identical. Then there would be neither a trans woman or a lesbian marriage. This has been pointed out multiple times in the product discussion thread, in fact.

Apparently that's too much, though. *Shrug*


So she's transgender to give her a different backstory but it has no effect on the actual story? Heck, change her hair color too. I don't see any problems then. If the AP was all about her and her transgender status, I can see someone getting bothered by the AP being used to push an agenda (that's something I would find boring as a campaign theme).

Some people just want to whine. Why play in a game that observes many gods but then get upset over a transgender NPC? One is a clear violation of the 10 Commandments. Of course the moment someone says that it's just make believe, they can apply the same argument about the NPC and the whole argument becomes moot.

Project Manager

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3.5 Loyalist wrote:

I saw his post too, and I wanted to talk about it. He was just talking about his preferences, raising his fist at what he saw as too much pc, and he stayed within the guidelines and rules. Guy was not a nut, or a nazi gormtrooper, but his thread got locked and he was directed to post elsewhere (which caused me to go, "seriously?" Stick to the camps for these type of posts?).

That seems pretty wrong to me. Guy talks in a forum he made on a gaming site about what is bothering him, paizo tries to silence the threat by locking it. That isn't very inclusive or respectful. Poor form paizo.

EDIT: as he cancelled his subscription, the thread on that also got locked:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q34h?Cancel-My-Subscriptions#1

They at least let him keep his original post up, but absolutely no discussion can be had there after the locking.

To be clear, his post was not deleted because he expressed his opinion. If someone wants to say "I don't want LGBT characters in my products because it violates my religious beliefs," we would -- as we have numerous times before -- left the post up.

His post was deleted because he felt the need to describe gay people as "sickening," which is the sort of abusive language that is in violation of our messageboard rules. You get to tell us you don't like gay people. You don't get to describe them in terms that are derogatory.


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(Posting here because the WotR #1 thread seems like it has had enough flammable posts without me coming in late with a fresh batch of kindling.)

I haven't gotten the AP yet (still waiting on it to ship from the retailer), but I don't understand the kerfluffle about the trans character being married to a lesbian (or bi?) half-orc paladin/inquisitor as "unbelievable."

I'll ignore for the moment the oddity of that idea in a setting filled with dragons and necromancers and demon invasions and mortals ascending to godhood. NPCs with player class levels are a minority to begin with, and are driven by many of the same goals as a PC would be. They are exceptions, and like most exceptions, usually outsiders. Outsiders generally only form lasting companionships with others of parity... other outsiders. So I'd imagine two NPCs like the couple would actually have a much greater chance of forming a relationship because of this.

Secondly, as for the "too-many-minority-categories/agenda" thing... In real life, the first boy I ever fell for actually turned out to be a pre-transition MtF. Who, while not actually combat-trained, was in ROTC and actually considering that career route. On top of which, she was herself of an Asian father and Caucasian mother. So the couple in the AP really isn't that unusual, at least to me.

I'd like to think the "too much" objectors forget how incredibly complex even "plain vanilla" hetero human NPCs are if you start peeling back their layers of backstory to discover their inner workings and history and where they draw moral lines on complex issues and etc. Or that the objectors, who seem primarily white hetero dudes, are realizing that the NPCs in APs are not always going to be more or less different versions of other white hetero dudes with minor cosmetic changes--kind of a culture shock of sorts. I would think that Paizo trying to avoid sloppy/cliched/lazy character development would be seen as a good thing.


Jessica Price wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:

I saw his post too, and I wanted to talk about it. He was just talking about his preferences, raising his fist at what he saw as too much pc, and he stayed within the guidelines and rules. Guy was not a nut, or a nazi gormtrooper, but his thread got locked and he was directed to post elsewhere (which caused me to go, "seriously?" Stick to the camps for these type of posts?).

That seems pretty wrong to me. Guy talks in a forum he made on a gaming site about what is bothering him, paizo tries to silence the threat by locking it. That isn't very inclusive or respectful. Poor form paizo.

EDIT: as he cancelled his subscription, the thread on that also got locked:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q34h?Cancel-My-Subscriptions#1

They at least let him keep his original post up, but absolutely no discussion can be had there after the locking.

To be clear, his post was not deleted because he expressed his opinion. If someone wants to say "I don't want LGBT characters in my products because it violates my religious beliefs," we would -- as we have numerous times before -- left the post up.

His post was deleted because he felt the need to describe gay people as "sickening," which is the sort of abusive language that is in violation of our messageboard rules. You get to tell us you don't like gay people. You don't get to describe them in terms that are derogatory.

I was quite ready to say that is fair and all that, and other posts have been deleted from the cancelled description, but on his locked thread here:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q354?Bring-back-the-good-old-days#1

He has not typed "sickening", he is measured and calm, he is expressing his dissatisfaction (he seems genuinely sad with the way the hobby has gone), and the thread got locked. The challenging replies were good too.

He was just expressing his opinion and that paizo has lost his support, he was contrasting the past with the present and it was even in place, talking about games and the change of game culture in gamer talk.

On the page.
"Please note that on paizo.com language that makes any bigoted, hateful or racially offensive statements is not acceptable."

He didn't do that. The thread covers a very short space of time and doesn't seem to have been fiddled with very much, just shut down.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

(Posting here because the WotR #1 thread seems like it has had enough flammable posts without me coming in late with a fresh batch of kindling.)

I haven't gotten the AP yet (still waiting on it to ship from the retailer), but I don't understand the kerfluffle about the trans character being married to a lesbian (or bi?) half-orc paladin/inquisitor as "unbelievable."

I'll ignore for the moment the oddity of that idea in a setting filled with dragons and necromancers and demon invasions and mortals ascending to godhood. NPCs with player class levels are a minority to begin with, and are driven by many of the same goals as a PC would be. They are exceptions, and like most exceptions, usually outsiders. Outsiders generally only form lasting companionships with others of parity... other outsiders. So I'd imagine two NPCs like the couple would actually have a much greater chance of forming a relationship because of this.

Secondly, as for the "too-many-minority-categories/agenda" thing... In real life, the first boy I ever fell for actually turned out to be a pre-transition MtF. Who, while not actually combat-trained, was in ROTC and actually considering that career route. On top of which, she was herself of an Asian father and Caucasian mother. So the couple in the AP really isn't that unusual, at least to me.

I'd like to think the "too much" objectors forget how incredibly complex even "plain vanilla" hetero human NPCs are if you start peeling back their layers of backstory to discover their inner workings and history and where they draw moral lines on complex issues and etc. Or that the objectors, who seem primarily white hetero dudes, are realizing that the NPCs in APs are not always going to be more or less different versions of other white hetero dudes with minor cosmetic changes--kind of a culture shock of sorts. I would think that Paizo trying to avoid sloppy/cliched/lazy character development would be seen as a good thing.

Nice post. A good argument for more... departures from plain vanilla sponge (see oglaf fingerbun for more on that).

I much prefer difference and novelty to be across species boundaries and cultural/civilisation schools or competitive belief systems (allegiances, all that), but adding more non hetero, more attention to sexual orientation, is not exactly risky (unless you are in Saudia Arabia), but it won't always mesh with the tastes of players.

I've gamed with conservatives that don't want the rest of the game cluttered with LGBT, some totally anti-sex in games players (I'm just here to raid tombs and gouge open sealed boxes, keep sex out of it okay? Don't make this weird). I've also gamed with people less concerned but the type of group where one bisexual naga and a pc boggard giving a sexual favour to get past and avoid combat was more than enough for the day. I put in a gay npc love interest, and one player went right along with it, the player, a hetero woman was playing a male, but the others only had so much interest and chuckles before it would become quite dull. So in my groups, cross-species has worked, but LGBT need to be in small amounts or there will be resistance. If paizo pushes it too often, the rep of paizo is going to change, and some players will decide, it is too gay/lesbian/trans for them.

If you put more real world representation of minorities in, you've got to ease it in, or you are forcing it in like it is a political statement. That risks being seen as crude and a far too obvious signpost of pc, and hades is one the type of player that does not want any of that. He isn't the only one.

On fantasy settings and LGBT, I would think monster sex is likely to be a highly sensitive issue, and occur, especially for hedonists and the vulnerable (urgh, gnoll raiding parties). Now it is up to the dm how gay/lesbian/trans goes and fits into a setting "I just want a girdle of sex change", with the possibility it is all cool, liberal, free and fapalicious for Sune, or the state and powers come right down on those that aren't breeding and which could be a threat to the existing social order and what is raised as "normal" (a bit more typical grim medieval here, obey obey, make sure you don't stray).

Thanks for reading!

The Exchange

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:

I saw his post too, and I wanted to talk about it. He was just talking about his preferences, raising his fist at what he saw as too much pc, and he stayed within the guidelines and rules. Guy was not a nut, or a nazi gormtrooper, but his thread got locked and he was directed to post elsewhere (which caused me to go, "seriously?" Stick to the camps for these type of posts?).

That seems pretty wrong to me. Guy talks in a forum he made on a gaming site about what is bothering him, paizo tries to silence the threat by locking it. That isn't very inclusive or respectful. Poor form paizo.

EDIT: as he cancelled his subscription, the thread on that also got locked:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q34h?Cancel-My-Subscriptions#1

They at least let him keep his original post up, but absolutely no discussion can be had there after the locking.

To be clear, his post was not deleted because he expressed his opinion. If someone wants to say "I don't want LGBT characters in my products because it violates my religious beliefs," we would -- as we have numerous times before -- left the post up.

His post was deleted because he felt the need to describe gay people as "sickening," which is the sort of abusive language that is in violation of our messageboard rules. You get to tell us you don't like gay people. You don't get to describe them in terms that are derogatory.

I was quite ready to say that is fair and all that, and other posts have been deleted from the cancelled description, but on his locked thread here:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q354?Bring-back-the-good-old-days#1

He has not typed "sickening", he is measured and calm, he is expressing his dissatisfaction (he seems genuinely sad with the way the hobby has gone), and the thread got locked. The challenging replies were good too.

He was just expressing his opinion and that paizo has lost his support, he was contrasting the past with the present and it was even in place, talking...

But on the thread where he was canceling his subscription he used "sickening" to describe gays. It was deleted within minutes and just after I had responded. I am not referring to his "Bring back the old days" thread as I haven't looked at it.

Silver Crusade

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I'm still reading Monte Cook's Numenera, and in the gazetteer section one village is mentioned as being run by a married couple. When you look at the (brief) descriptions of them, you realise that both are male.

No hype, no mention of it being usual/unusual, just carried on like there was nothing strange to remark upon.

I like that approach.


If I might jump in quickly as to the locked thread about the "good old days," 3.5 Loyalist, I think I can understand where the moderators are coming from: I imagine that they don't want to monitor X many threads to make sure that the messageboard rules are being followed, especially about issues on which Paizo does take a firm position. If I recall correctly, the OP was directed to this thread or the one on "Homosexuality in Golarion," the latter of which, at least, was hardly a disingenuous suggestion. I remember ages ago the "Civil Religious Discussion" thread was carefully watched until it grew into more or less the go-to sort of place for that sort of discussion on these boards, and it worked fairly well even as things sometimes got rather heated. Given the fuss in the community about duplicate threads about matters where feelings don't run high, I can understand the moderators' concerns about keeping an eye on threads where it might be a matter of messageboard rules for keeping them a friendly space.

Silver Crusade

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Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

I'm still reading Monte Cook's Numenera, and in the gazetteer section one village is mentioned as being run by a married couple. When you look at the (brief) descriptions of them, you realise that both are male.

No hype, no mention of it being usual/unusual, just carried on like there was nothing strange to remark upon.

I like that approach.

If I'm thinking of the same couple, the main reason they stick out to me is that they share their page with one of the strangest, most beautiful, and ambiguous character designs in the book. At first I wondered if that art was meant to be the nano in the couple before reading further.

Beyond that, they just blend in. :)

Project Manager

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Hey, there, transgender gamers (or people with friends who are transgender gamers)!

A member of one of my women in gaming networks is part of a panel at PAX about gamers who are transitioning, and has asked if we can invite people to take a survey. There's also a survey for non-transgender gamers as well.

Here's a link to the surveys and panel descriptions.

Silver Crusade

Jessica Price wrote:

Hey, there, transgender gamers (or people with friends who are transgender gamers)!

A member of one of my women in gaming networks is part of a panel at PAX about gamers who are transitioning, and has asked if we can invite people to take a survey. There's also a survey for non-transgender gamers as well.

Here's a link to the surveys and panel descriptions.

I recommend taking this on a traditional keyboard if possible! ;)

ow ow ow

Sovereign Court Contributor

Mikaze wrote:

Also:

Freehold DM wrote:
Kajehase wrote:
List of things gay marriage apparently leads to.
lesbian queen! LESBIAN QUEEN!!!!!!

Well hell, I'd vote for her.

[/doesn'tknowhowtomonarchy]

Pretty sure there's already been a lesbian queen in Great Britain. Sweden had a near contemporary one.

And of course we have had gay kings. The weird thing about hereditary monarchy is that by not getting to choose a leader, the people have had somewhat more diverse symbolic leadership then the times might have allowed in a democracy: women, queer kings, etc.

Sovereign Court Contributor

Jessica Price wrote:

Hey, there, transgender gamers (or people with friends who are transgender gamers)!

A member of one of my women in gaming networks is part of a panel at PAX about gamers who are transitioning, and has asked if we can invite people to take a survey. There's also a survey for non-transgender gamers as well.

Here's a link to the surveys and panel descriptions.

Replied. I'll email my sister about it too.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
If paizo pushes it too often, the rep of paizo is going to change, and some players will decide, it is too gay/lesbian/trans for them.

Any players who decide that there are "too many" homosexual characters for them in a fantasy RPG are more than welcome to leave.


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That stance can be taken, to attack and reject everyone that doesn't keep up (or feel comfortable) with the changes, but it reveals Hadesblade was not entirely wrong. To say accept or leave indicates that yes, it is very political, there is a reason and a cause behind the changes.

On that day, the progressive ceases to be inclusive and it becomes about pushing the agenda of an interest group over the wishes of others in the game. Here are the new gay characters, accept it, that is how things are now (officially anyway).

Are they (the interest group and their supporters) the good guys? Are they the bad guys? That isn't a question I much care about. I don't like it when the hobby has political causes dragged into it, and LGBT is big news in America at the moment. All the rage as it were. So in that sense I agree with Hades and he has identified political intrusion into our game.

Liberty's Edge

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For a lot of people, myself included, LGBT isn't "big news". It's not "political". It's life. I'm not trying to push some agenda when I try to support Paizo's decisions in this matter. It's literally just me being happy that I can empathise with a character in a way I don't often get to.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Paizo's decision to include LGBT characters is less about politics and more about acknowledging the reality that some of their employees (and their customers!) live as well.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Loyalist,
And the decision not to include LGBT is not in any way political, of course. It's only people doing things you don't like that have a political agenda.
Some posters certainly have a poltical agenda, to silence and marginalise LGBT people by whitewashing them from the media. So, pick your agenda, inclusion of marginalised groups or further marginalisation. I know which one I'm going with.


What is this thing about LGBT being a political thing?

If you like it or not its nature, its like fighting with a lion or having a dog familiar, its part of nature and the world, not human politics, religion only puts it there.


One of my players in our newish Rise of the Runeplutocrats game is a black halfling poisoner with a decidedly Samuel Jackson look to him, but with dreadlocks.

We had made up and established that his family in Sandpoint were Station Masters on the Bellflower Network Underground Railroad, but that the PC (Jack Truth) was the, um, black sheep of the family and had left five years ago to be a grifter in the big city.

I had decided that his parents had been fertile little revolutionary halflings and he had 5 survivng siblings (his elder brother, and his father come to think of it, had laid down their lives in the holy cause of slave-liberating) and one of them, his sister Olive, was an aspiring actress at the Sandpoint Theater.

Before the game had started I had decided that the Truths lived by a stern, austere New England Christian Puritan-esque morality/sensibility that would have been familiar to, say, William Lloyd Garrison or John Brown (not to mention Sojourner Truth). As such, they take a very dim view of such frivolities and moral lapses as loud clothing, inebriation, dancing, poisoning and, most assuredly, the theater.

Anyway, we wuz playin' and Jack went to stop by the family bookstore and his remaining brother, Harry, gave him the high hat, so Jack collected some things from his teenage bedroom and moved into The Pixie's Kitten.

Later, during the exciting events that open Burnt Offerings, he ran into Olive and decided to stay with her. I don't know why exactly, but I was thinking of Hollywood in the '30s and Cary Grant and the closet and stuff, but I decided that Olive lived with and was married to a white, gay male human from the Theater. Jack, after a successful gaydar Perception check, didn't care, and I think I've decided that the Truths aren't concerned with the racial or sexual implications of this domestic arrangement, so much as they frown on actors.

Anyway, it was shiznit I made up while high, and I'm not really sure what I'm going to do with all of it, but I did want to check in from that old Homosexuality & D&D thread and report that although, no, I still haven't depicted any happy homosexual couples, I've moved beyond the bad old anti-gay cliche days of sadistic lesbian prison guards and convicted corrupters of youth.


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Kajehase wrote:
Mikaze wrote:

Also:

Freehold DM wrote:
Kajehase wrote:
List of things gay marriage apparently leads to.
lesbian queen! LESBIAN QUEEN!!!!!!

Well hell, I'd vote for her.

[/doesn'tknowhowtomonarchy]

Actually, most monarchies started out with the king (or, in rare cases, the queen) being elected by the powerful members of their polity.

Poland kept this until its third partition in the late 1700s, in Sweden we didn't formally become a hereditary monarchy until some point after the accession of Gustav Eriksson (Vasa) in 1520.

But they are talking about the english monarchy, where Primogeniture rules, and the monarchy is purely hereditary.

And frankly, i'd love use to have a Lesbian queen. Not because it would be a great victory for equality or anything, strictly speaking, absolutely nothing would have to change for us to have one. We may conceivable have already had one or two, thanks to forced political marriage.

No, because it would send the daily mail readership absolutely potty. I mean they literally wouldn't know what to do with themselves.

Its the queen so they have to love her.

but she is gay, so they also have to hate her.

it would be like feeding the liar paradox to an android ;)


I get that, inaction can also be highly political. I also can see you have your cause, and you think you are the good guys.

Now, if because of recent successes in our world, a fantasy world starts changing and npcs start cropping up that seem really out of place (almost like they belong in our world, and not the fantasy setting), do you get why that may tick some people off? What was, can feel like it is being phased out, and replaced with new pc representations. The offended party can feel that they signed up for heroes and villains, and not trans folk that feel more suited to a capital city and a club down the road.

As the meme says:
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-never-asked-for-this

So by giving people what they don't want and did not ask for, you pi** them off. In Australia there is a saying, you pi** in their chips. I get that you want it, and your friends and the cause want more of these progressive representations in fantasy, but not everyone is eager or happy to go along, or pleased about very recent additions (trans npc).

Just being clear, L G and B have come into my games, as a result of my own choices as a dm (no adventure path tells me what to do, lol). A gay friend was pleased, another player went squeee at the choice for some gay romance, good non rustled jimmies over here at the gaming table. *Thumbs up*.

Yet not everyone is so pleased and paizo is risking a lot being so obedient to one cause and group.

As Jensen says:
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/130/3/9/adam_jensen_magic_the_gather ing_card_by_headhunterxzi-d4z9sbg.png

Try to implant what is unwelcome by some and also not wanted or which feels out of place and...

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-dont-want-to-live-on-this-planet-anymore

This is an inevitable response from some previously very interested and dedicated players. The changes have driven them away (which I think is really unfortunate, I am not happy to see them go, differing political affiliations aside).


1 person marked this as a favorite.
3.5 Loyalist wrote:

I get that, inaction can also be highly political. I also can see you have your cause, and you think you are the good guys.

Now, if because of recent successes in our world, a fantasy world starts changing and npcs start cropping up that seem really out of place (almost like they belong in our world, and not the fantasy setting), do you get why that may tick some people off? What was, can feel like it is being phased out, and replaced with new pc representations. The offended party can feel that tehy signed up for heroes and villains, not trans folk that feel more suited to a capital city and a the club down the road.

As the meme says:
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-never-asked-for-this

So by giving people what they don't want and did not ask for, you pi** them off. In Australia there is a saying, you pi** in their chips. I get that you want it, and your friends and the cause want more of these progressive representations in fantasy, but not everyone is eager or happy to go along, or pleased about very recent additions (trans npc).

Just being clear, L G and B have come into my games, as a result of my own choices as a dm (no adventure path tells me what to do, lol). A gay friend was pleased, another player went squeee at the choice for some gay romance, good non rustled jimmies over here at the gaming table. *Thumbs up*.

Yet not everyone is so pleased and paizo is risking a lot being so obedient to one cause and group.

As Jensen says:
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/130/3/9/adam_jensen_magic_the_gather ing_card_by_headhunterxzi-d4z9sbg.png

Try to implant what is unwelcome by some and also not wanted or which feels out of place and...

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-dont-want-to-live-on-this-planet-anymore

This is an inevitable response from some previously very interested and dedicated players. The changes have driven them away (which I think is really unfortunate, I am not happy to see them go, differing political affiliations aside).

Where exactly has golarion ever been said not to include NPCs of the sexual identieis and backgrounds discussed?

Where has it even been hinted at?

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